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-   -   Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2434250-nearfield-ported-mbm-increased-mid-bass-tactile-response.html)

dominguez1 04-24-2016 02:27 PM

Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response
 
2 Attachment(s)
Background

In the ULF thread and @coolrda 's Vibsensor thread, we've been discussing how different sub designs (sealed, ported, horn, etc.) can produce different tactile responses. When placed nearfield, these differences become more pronounced. Our focus has been largely from a ULF tactile response (TR) standpoint.

One of the theories is that ported produces more TR than sealed around the tune. I first demonstrated this in the ULF thread in this post:

Ported vs Sealed in my room

Recently, others have also done similar tests, but used a far more accurate measuring system with VibSensor:

@derrickdj1 example

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1456191537

His martysub is tuned to 20hz, and you can see in the above (scales were adjusted on images so that you can directly compare) that 20hz is much higher compare to his sealed Marty (plugged vents).

@MKtheater example

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1457666090

MK ported his IB setup, putting him at around a 7hz tune. You can see from the above how much the 10hz TR changed, even when he was running his sealed setup much hotter.

Within the spoiler below, I put together a much more detailed analysis of MK's example above:

Spoiler!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we assume that around the port tune there is more Tactile Response, then you could apply the same approach for LF frequencies, and more specifically mid-bass frequencies.

The reason I created this thread was to try out an MBM nearfield in support of this theory. :cool:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1472701056

Based on the above, it appears that this mid-bass "chest slam" or "shortness of breath" effect is in the 50-100hz range.

I know HSU has an MBM offering and it's tuned to 50hz. But the problem with that design IMO is that the driver is downfiring. In order to get max Tactile Response, the driver and port should be facing the main LP. I've heard great things about the HSU though, I just think there might be a better solution.

I searched google, and really couldn't find anyone else that makes MBMs....BUT, if you think about it, an MBM is just a high tuned sub. Most PA subs have high tunes as they are geared toward music. With that being said, this opens up a lot more possibilities!

For my HT, I don't have a lot of space behind my seats as I already have two FV15HPs behind me as well as a second row.

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/153891.jpg

So I do have size restrictions as well when thinking about this sub...it pretty much has to be no bigger (and preferably smaller) than the FV15HP...

So I found this $299 gem:

Behringer B1200D-PRO

Specs

It doesn't specify tune, but the FR is 60hz to 130hz. The frequency range is 45hz to 180hz (-10), although I'm not sure what that means...

It's only a 12in driver, but it claims to push 122db at 1m. This will be placed nearfield, so I'm not really concerned about it keeping up.

Also, I'm really doing it to see if it can be an improvement...I'm not currently lacking in mid-bass today by any means (2 FTW21s, 2 FV15HPs nearfield, Fusion 12 LCR, and Volt 10 for surrounds).

Thoughts? Any other subs or MBMs come to mind? Is this a solve for max mid-bass slam?


Testing Update 6-1-16: FV15HP vs 1200D


Subs:
Rythmik FV15HP - 15in Driver w/12hz tune
Behringer 1200D - 12in Driver, w/65hz tune


Distance:
10.5in behind the Main Listening Position


Content:
47hz Sine Wave


Level:
88db


Measuring tool:
LG G5 running VibSensor 2.0.0


Each sub was placed in the exact same location, and each was calibrated to 88db. I placed the LG G5 at the MLP and ran the tests.

The results are in....



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1464834236


As you can see, the 1200D has almost 2X the PSD and acceleration as the FV15HP at the same frequency and the same SPL.

Additionally, I don't believe this is at the tune of the 1200D. If VS was able to measure around 55hz, I believe the difference would be even larger... :eek:


Conclusion:


VibSensor does not lie...no subjectivity, just the data. Another example that "at or around port tune", there is more TR in the nearfield because of the increased Sound Intensity.

  • Sound Intensity is how we 'feel' sound and causes the Tactile Response (vibration) of objects
  • Sound Intensity (SIL) = Pressure (SPL) * Particle Velocity (PVL)
  • If SPL is held constant, and there is more Tactile Response than there MUST be more PVL
  • @3ll3d00d ran a model in hornresp comparing a 14hz tuned 12in sub vs a sealed 18in UXL that shows that ported designs do produce more PVL around tune (see image below)...many many multiples more in fact, extending about an octave
  • This means that a sealed design at 90db SPL will be less tactile that a ported design at 90db around tune.

The below graph (data points extracted from hornresp) show that the ported box produced much more PVL (10 TIMES more) compared to sealed around tune . And it looks as though the elevated PVL continues to about an octave over the sealed.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...9&d=1471892936


Given this, it's no wonder why all the examples above demonstrate that ported subs are more tactile around tune. :cool:



Research on Near Field and Sound Intensity


There's a lot of good discussion with regards to the near field and its benefits. I wanted to take a moment and define it based on what I've researched. Caveat: I'm an enthusiast not a scientist. :)

I originally talked about the nearfield almost 4 years ago in this post.

I will try and summarize it below and use the ISO 12001 definition of near field:

First defining Sound Intensity:

Sound Intensity (SIL) = pressure (SPL) * particle velocity (PVL)

Sound intensity has a direction as particle velocity is a vector quantity. This means it has a magnitude and direction. Pressure is a scalar quantity and has a magnitude, but no direction.

Sound Energy is a form of energy associated with the vibration of matter.

Sound Intensity is sound energy per unit time per unit area.

Sound Intensity is how we 'feel' sound on our bodies.

While bass waves are said to be omnidirectional (meaning we cannot locate the sound with our ears), the intensity of those waves are directional. This means we can feel where the waves are coming from in the right conditions. (e.g. Feel a NF sub with the driver pointed directly at your LP and then turn it 180 degrees away and see if you can feel the difference; the answer is yes.).

Now, on to Sound Fields...

Sound travels through various Sound Fields.
  • Far Field - Pressure and Particle Velocity are in phase. In this sound field, because they are in phase, when SPL peaks, so does PVL. Therefore, to understand Intensity, you just need to measure one of the quantities (SPL). When we measure SPL in the far field, we can expect that the Intensity will be the same regardless of the distance (e.g. 115db 25ft away will feel the same as 115db 40ft away).
  • Near Field - Pressure and Particle Velocity are NOT in phase (as defined by ISO 12001). This means that when PVL is at its peak, SPL is not. In fact, in the Near Field, PVL is greater than SPL in the Near Field (see page 2-15 in this paper). This is commonly referred to as "the near field effect". This means to get an understanding of Intensity (or how we feel sound) in the near field, we need to know SPL and PVL.
  • Near Field Region - ISO 12001 (see 1.1.2.2 in prior link) defines that a frequency is in the near field if it is within a wavelength. An 80hz wave is 13.7Ft. A 20hz wave is 54.8Ft. Given those lengths and the placement of our subs from the LP, most bass waves in the typical home theater room will be considered in the near field; meaning to understand Intensity or how we feel sound, SPL measurements are just not enough. We also need to understand PVL.
  • The Very Near Field It is the sound field that is very close to the source (see page 2-16 in prior link) where it behaves more like an incompressible fluid. This means there is very little SPL, and mostly PVL. The paper describes that this region occurs when the distance r from the moving object (speaker cone) is much smaller than both the wavelength *and* the object dimension L (eq. 2.36), which in our case would correspond to the driver diameter. Being that these ULF frequencies are much greater in length than the typical subwoofer diameter, the very near field would be the driver diameter (15in, 18in, 21in, depending on sub).

What does this all mean in practice...

The majority of sub frequencies in our HT's exist in the near field. This means that just understanding SPL is not enough to understand Intensity, or how we 'feel' sound.

Sound intensity is dependent on distance. The closer to the source, the more intensity you will have. It is also directional.

In the Very Near Field, the physics starts to enter fluid dynamics and starts to behave differently than the near field. It is said that this has high levels of PVL in this field relative to SPL.

To optimize (have the highest levels) Intensity:
  • Put the sub as close as possible. You'll get additional Intensity if the proximity of the LP is less than the driver diameter of the sub.
  • Use ported, horn, bandpass, etc.; anything with a vent. Hornresp has modeled particle velocity, and the models show increased levels of PVL compared to sealed in the near field. However, what it does not model is the behavior of the Very Near Field.


Sources:

https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/br0476.pdf
http://www.who.int/occupational_heal...ons/noise1.pdf
http://www.microflown.com/files/medi..._vibration.pdf


Measuring Sound Intensity:



1st - Microflown Acoustic Camera



2nd - Sound Intensity Mapping of a Speaker


3rd - Low Frequency Mapping of Sound Intensity of Speaker/Subwoofer


dominguez1 04-25-2016 03:35 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Commercial and AIY MBM options


Behringer B1200D-PRO

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Lqhap5LeL.jpg

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1461623619

@Marc Alexander produced the below close mic response with the different configuration settings for the 1200D:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...9&d=1473637318


As you can see, it looks like the tune is around 65hz. Adjusting the 10db boost will change F3 depending on what frequency you set it at.


Yamaha DSR118W Review by @giftedmd $999 street price


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486407385

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2017...500bd5f9ec.jpg


PartExpress Assemble it yourself option



This box can be paired with this driver. It will also need an external amp.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486407385

Nearfield MBMs in the Wild



Thanks to @Brazle for sourcing these:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazle (Post 50514769)
I've been running my subs nearfield behind the couch for about a year now with MUCH success - best location for my subs in the whole room. I added the test MBM about 2 months ago.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486326536

As you can see they are all very close to the back of the couch and the sound (and feeling) is exactly what I'm looking for. I've been following the VibSensor & MBM threads for a while and this setup behind the couch is pretty common, especially where the goal is to increase Tactile Response which is one of the things I'm looking for.

I've gotten a lot of inspiration from those threads and from my own personal preference and research that have led me to this design.
Many have had success with setups similar to what I'm building (most with separate components though).
Here are some examples of setups I have seen and used as inspiration

1. @lz7j (these are run facing the couch with the ports at chest level)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486326536

2. @More is Better (there is some distance here between the couch and the drivers, and the drivers extend above the couch with most others don't, but I believe this was just temporary)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486326536

3. @Raylon
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486326536

4. @raynist
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486326536

5. @SBuger (new & old)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486326536

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1486326536


derrickdj1 04-25-2016 03:48 PM

1 Attachment(s)
AVS member eng-399 built some MBM to go behind his second roll of seats. Next month I will demo them at the local gtg. He may be someone to talk to if you are interested in a cheap build. I think the drivers were around $ 60 for the Infinity 1260. Space was also an issue for eng-399. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/member...6-eng-399.html

Is it cheating to use some TT's for the mid bass slam, lol.

lz7j 04-25-2016 05:35 PM

130 Attachment(s)
@dominguez1 - I'm currently experimenting with "MBM's" in my 8 x ported setup (4 x 11ft^3/17hz with HST18's, 4 x 7ft^3 avg/18hz-20hz with HT18's nearfield) and Fusion-15's in 4.6ft^3 towers for my LCR's on crown xls1500's. I recently built 2 x 6.5ft^3/30hz cabs and used the Dayton PA-460 with 325w rms/driver... I've set them up farfield with the hst18's, 12' from MLP and my setup is as follows:

General XO 120hz
hst18's, hpf 17hz, lpf 50hz
ht18's, hpf 25hz, lpf 80hz (anything higher caused localization)
pa460's, hpf 30hz

My system has never sounded and felt this amazing. I gave up 2 x hst18's for the pa460's as I didn't have enough space... they're that good in what they do.

I still plan on trying the pa460's on the lower tuned nearfield boxes ala VBSS. It's in the center of the room and is in a 20hz deep null, so I have them hpf at 25hz to save amp power.


@rhodesj has already modelled the 3 drivers in a 6ft^3/25hz box. "Red is PA460 with 400W, blue is the HT18D4 with 900W, and green the HT18D2 with 900W."
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...p;d=1448853659

Above 40hz, you should see 2-5db more in output with the PA460's. $90 for the driver + $50 for the box and a $160 inuke1000dsp for both.




My only concern with the B1200D is the limited bandwidth as a nearfield sub... unless you plan on integrating it like a true MBM

dominguez1 04-25-2016 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrickdj1 (Post 43560714)
AVS member eng-399 built some MBM to go behind his second roll of seats. Next month I will demo them at the local gtg. He may be someone to talk to if you are interested in a cheap build. I think the drivers were around $ 60 for the Infinity 1260. Space was also an issue for eng-399. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/member...6-eng-399.html

Is it cheating to use some TT's for the mid bass slam, lol.

Yup, I've seen those beasts...they look amazing.

I'm sure those are killer...but they are sealed. Need to try the ported variety for this test. :)

TT's for mid bass slam? Maybe...do you have the hooked up behind your back? That may work!

dominguez1 04-25-2016 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lz7j (Post 43563370)
@dominguez1 - I'm currently experimenting with "MBM's" in my 8 x ported setup (4 x 11ft^3/17hz with HST18's, 4 x 7ft^3 avg/18hz-20hz with HT18's nearfield) and Fusion-15's in 4.6ft^3 towers for my LCR's on crown xls1500's. I recently built 2 x 6.5ft^3/30hz cabs and used the Dayton PA-460 with 325w rms/driver... I've set them up farfield with the hst18's, 12' from MLP and my setup is as follows:

General XO 120hz
hst18's, hpf 17hz, lpf 50hz
ht18's, hpf 25hz, lpf 80hz (anything higher caused localization)
pa460's, hpf 30hz

My system has never sounded and felt this amazing. I gave up 2 x hst18's for the pa460's as I didn't have enough space... they're that good in what they do.

I still plan on trying the pa460's on the lower tuned nearfield boxes ala VBSS. It's in the center of the room and is in a 20hz deep null, so I have them hpf at 25hz to save amp power.

Wow, based on your ported setup, your room has to be very tactile! You should consider adding some sealed into the mix so you can get those bottom octaves.

I'm not a DIY'r unfortunately...don't have the time. But the PA460s do sound amazing. Was there a huge difference compared to the HSTs for mid-bass?


Quote:

Originally Posted by lz7j (Post 43563370)
My only concern with the B1200D is the limited bandwidth as a nearfield sub... unless you plan on integrating it like a true MBM

Yes, definitely plan on integrating it. My HT room will be somewhat unique in that I'll have the low tuned FV15HPs nearfield, as well as the Behringer 1200D nearfield as well. It could be an integration nightmare...but we shall see.

lz7j 04-25-2016 06:56 PM

130 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43564666)
Wow, based on your ported setup, your room has to be very tactile! You should consider adding some sealed into the mix so you can get those bottom octaves.

I'm not a DIY'r unfortunately...don't have the time. But the PA460s do sound amazing. Was there a huge difference compared to the HSTs for mid-bass?




Yes, definitely plan on integrating it. My HT room will be somewhat unique in that I'll have the low tuned FV15HPs nearfield, as well as the Behringer 1200D nearfield as well. It could be an integration nightmare...but we shall see.

Yes - very. Unfortunately for me, my room/basement is open with a combined 6200ft^3 space. With the ported subs, F3 is 12hz. If I want ULF, my family room with 4 x 12" sealed subs nearfield at 1700ft^3 is a pretty cool experience.

In terms of midbass output on pa460's vs hst-18's (on inuke6000's), the latter has more output at 50-80hz. What compelled me to try these mbm's is when I experimented crossing my mains over to 40hz; my system sounded better... reminded me of subM's. With the pa460's xo'd all the way to 120hz, I've gained 4db from 80-120hz over my f-15's with the added benefit of having a snappier sound from 40-80hz.

derrickdj1 04-26-2016 02:53 AM

I guess using a MBM is an individual thing after hours of listening to your system. First, what is your goal? MBM is rough 50-250 Hz but, could cover 35-600 Hz. There can be holes caused by room modes. Also, subs tuned low will suffer the higher up you go in the passband. Two questions come to mind, how well is auto EQ at correcting these problems and how are the rest of the speakers in the HT doing in the midbass region?

TT's are not intended for midbass but, I mentioned them since the ULF thread has a major focus on TR.:) Are there benefits to a MBM, sure. Dom mention using a ported enclosures in the nearfield in keeping with the TR focus. The trick is to integrate all of these different XO regions. The goal as I see it is to for more dynamic and a certain bit of headroom. That is one thing that suffers using large subs nearfield. The proximity of the low bass can muddy the midbass. Hopefully we will have some MBM at the upcoming gtg to evaluate.

I have not given much consideration to MBM and space is a problem. This is just another reason for running speakers set to small in the HT is good for. It increase headroom for the midbass from the other speakers in the HT. In the end, the rabbit hole keeps getting deeper, lol.:eek:

dominguez1 04-26-2016 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lz7j (Post 43565386)
In terms of midbass output on pa460's vs hst-18's (on inuke6000's), the latter has more output at 50-80hz. What compelled me to try these mbm's is when I experimented crossing my mains over to 40hz; my system sounded better... reminded me of subM's. With the pa460's xo'd all the way to 120hz, I've gained 4db from 80-120hz over my f-15's with the added benefit of having a snappier sound from 40-80hz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrickdj1 (Post 43570370)
I guess using a MBM is an individual thing after hours of listening to your system. First, what is your goal? MBM is rough 50-250 Hz but, could cover 35-600 Hz. There can be holes caused by room modes. Also, subs tuned low will suffer the higher up you go in the passband. Two questions come to mind, how well is auto EQ at correcting these problems and how are the rest of the speakers in the HT doing in the midbass region?

The bandwidth that this mbm will be covering is limited to 45-to my crossover point which is 80hz or so.

When I had only 1 fv15hp, I had it directly behind the main lp. The slam was incredible...when I got a second fv15hp, I decided to flank both sides of the couch with them to get more even TR distribution across the seats. It still slams, but not like it did with it directly behind the main lp.

I'm hoping that adding this mbm back in will get me that and more since the port tune is much higher than the fv15hp. As you and mk have experienced, around port tune there is more TR, so that as well being placed behind the lp i would think would have max TR.

lefthandluke 04-26-2016 11:02 AM

dom don't you live in cinci...?


I have one of these B1200D subs you are welcome to borrow...


see what u think

dominguez1 04-26-2016 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefthandluke (Post 43581306)
dom don't you live in cinci...?


I have one of these B1200D subs you are welcome to borrow...


see what u think

Damn, just placed order! Let me see if I can cancel...

What did you think of that sub?

Are you in Dayton?

lefthandluke 04-26-2016 11:27 AM

I bought it for mid-bass punch as well but did not use it nearfield. took a bit of work to integrate but liked the effect.
not in my system at the moment so you're welcome to give it a go.


meet you in Middletown...?

dominguez1 04-26-2016 11:52 AM

Too late...Amazon moves fast!

Appreciate the offer though...

Did it keep up in your system?

lefthandluke 04-26-2016 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43582794)
Did it keep up in your system?


for a while...added a PSA s3600i so don't use it at the moment




edit: sorry I was at work and read this too quick...read it as "did u keep it in your system"




yeah it wasn't primo but but I liked the effect.


anxious to hear your impressions...

SBuger 04-27-2016 06:44 PM

@dominguez1 Just to add a little info about the HSU MBM, I had one for a while and it most definitely had awesome mid bass - sharp, fast and punchy. I currently run a FV15HP with driver as close as possible to my back and is spectacular for mid bass slam IMO. I tried an MBM and used it the same way with the driver facing right into my back (pretty much touching the back of the couch). The FV and the MBM felt almost identical in that 50-80hz region (my crossover is set to 80) with the difference of the FV continuing to play on down to 12 hz or so.

It looks like you already ordered the other, but you may want to give the MBM a try and all you would be out is shipping if you didn't like it or just wanted to test. Keep in mind that you can take the spike feet off and lay it on its side to get the driver facing into the couch and as close as you want it. Also you can plug the port to seal it as well. That might be real handy as well to do your testing :)

dominguez1 04-28-2016 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBuger (Post 43620258)
@dominguez1 Just to add a little info about the HSU MBM, I had one for a while and it most definitely had awesome mid bass - sharp, fast and punchy. I currently run a FV15HP with driver as close as possible to my back and is spectacular for mid bass slam IMO. I tried an MBM and used it the same way with the driver facing right into my back (pretty much touching the back of the couch). The FV and the MBM felt almost identical in that 50-80hz region (my crossover is set to 80) with the difference of the FV continuing to play on down to 12 hz or so.

It looks like you already ordered the other, but you may want to give the MBM a try and all you would be out is shipping if you didn't like it or just wanted to test. Keep in mind that you can take the spike feet off and lay it on its side to get the driver facing into the couch and as close as you want it. Also you can plug the port to seal it as well. That might be real handy as well to do your testing :)

Very cool @SBuger . Thanks for the feedback!

That was my experience with the fv right behind my lp as well. My hope is that because this behringer 1200d is ported and tuned around 50-60hz, that it will even have more slam than the fv.

I looked at the hsu, and was really looking for a solution where both the port and the driver were facing the same direction. Its my belief that the sound intensity generated around port tune is greater than the sound intensity generated from the driver alone. That's why we've seen more tactile response from the ported vs sealed tests I cited in the first post.

Additionally, ported vs sealed aside, what a great alternative to the hsu mbm if it works. I think the hsu runs at 599, whereas this 1200D is only 299. Quite a bargain to me if your focused on this narrow band 45-150 or so. Perhaps a cheap and very effective solution for those craving the mid bass slam.

We shall see!

SBuger 04-28-2016 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43626002)
Very cool @SBuger . Thanks for the feedback!

That was my experience with the fv right behind my lp as well. My hope is that because this behringer 1200d is ported and tuned around 50-60hz, that it will even have more slam than the fv.

I looked at the hsu, and was really looking for a solution where both the port and the driver were facing the same direction. Its my belief that the sound intensity generated around port tune is greater than the sound intensity generated from the driver alone. That's why we've seen more tactile response from the ported vs sealed tests I cited in the first post.

Additionally, ported vs sealed aside, what a great alternative to the hsu mbm if it works. I think the hsu runs at 599, whereas this 1200D is only 299. Quite a bargain to me if your focused on this narrow band 45-150 or so. Perhaps a cheap and very effective solution for those craving the mid bass slam.

We shall see!

Cool, it could turn out to be just awesome, and at half the price of the HSU. I'll be interested to hear your impressions of it! Great mid bass makes such a difference!!

dominguez1 05-01-2016 11:19 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I decided that I wasn't going to touch my existing FR, and just add the 1200D into the fold...and hope for the best. :eek:

Reason being, I wanted to be able to do some AB testing to determine if I liked it or not.

It always takes quite a bit of time to integrate my FV15HPs, FTW21s, and Audessey. My EQ system is a pair of 2 band PEQs from elemental designs (eQ.2). They are effective especially with audyssey doing the majority of the work, but it takes time to integrate them to my liking (I want certain frequencies amplified by the nearfield FVs and certain ones by the FTWs).

My FV15HPs are tuned to 12hz, the 1200D is tuned to 50-60hz, and then I have my sealed FTW21s.

I wasn't expecting them to integrate all together by leaving everything as is, but this was more about Tactile Response that a better FR. If I like the TR better, than I'd go back to the drawing board and try and integrate all 5 subwoofers.

Here's where I landed just by inserting the 1200D, and adjusting the setting on that and keeping my other EQ settings the same:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1462126158

Red is my FR before, and blue is it after.... :cool:

Who knew! It literally integrated right in! :D It probably helped that I had a rising house curve before, and this flattened it out, but still...no phase problems at tune, it just filled the gap to make it flat. This probably saved me a half day of EQ'ing all these together.

I haven't done an AB comparisons yet, but first impressions are WOW! Lots more slam and TR! It certainly reminds me of when I had my FV15HP directly behind me. I'm amazed that this little 12in sub can keep up, but it definitely can...even with it's tiny footprint (14x17x16).

More to come, but so far I'm impressed...

DotJun 05-01-2016 08:58 PM

You should pick up a growler [emoji33]

dominguez1 05-02-2016 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DotJun (Post 43713994)
You should pick up a growler [emoji33]

LOL, this sub would probably fit into the horn of that growler...

dominguez1 05-02-2016 06:09 PM

I watched In the Heart of the Sea last night with the 1200D as an MBM. Definitely makes a huge difference in Tactile Response! In fact, it might be too much! :eek::eek: I can definitely feel it in the chest more...at some points sort makes your heart race a bit it seems.

It definitely added a new dimension to my HT, and seemed to blend very well from a TR standpoint with what my FVs were doing. I also did some AB testing, and while my FVs can get close to replicating the TR (remember they are not right behind the LP), they can't quite replicate the TR with the 1200D right behind me.

I've also got all new vibrations I need to take care of in the room because of this little MBM...that was also a bit distracting when watching the movie.

It's funny, I've been so focused on ULF that past 3 years, it's interesting to try and maximize LF! :cool:

The true test is to watch a movie that really not action based, and see how it handles that. A pet peeve of mine is to have too much LF or ULF mated to screen action that's not really calling for that; for example, a door slamming or bass guitar riff, etc.

lefthandluke 05-03-2016 07:07 AM

nice dom!
I'm gonna hafta try mine nearfield now...!


just curious how close to your seat did u place the 1200 and at what gain position...?
did u experiment with the "boost" option...?

Ryansboston 05-03-2016 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43737674)
I watched In the Heart of the Sea last night with the 1200D as an MBM. Definitely makes a huge difference in Tactile Response! In fact, it might be too much! :eek::eek: I can definitely feel it in the chest more...at some points sort makes your heart race a bit it seems.

It definitely added a new dimension to my HT, and seemed to blend very well from a TR standpoint with what my FVs were doing. I also did some AB testing, and while my FVs can get close to replicating the TR (remember they are not right behind the LP), they can't quite replicate the TR with the 1200D right behind me.

I've also got all new vibrations I need to take care of in the room because of this little MBM...that was also a bit distracting when watching the movie.

It's funny, I've been so focused on ULF that past 3 years, it's interesting to try and maximize LF! :cool:

The true test is to watch a movie that really not action based, and see how it handles that. A pet peeve of mine is to have too much LF or ULF mated to screen action that's not really calling for that; for example, a door slamming or bass guitar riff, etc.

Sounds like you got the tactile response you are looking for! I'm jealous! I am very interested in the details of how you have this all set up.

IE.. -? receiver dual sub out to dual PEQ,
-set LPF to 45 HPF to 80 for 1200D,
-set HPF to ? for FTW 21
-set HPF to ? for FV 15HP
-Settings on each sub set to ?
-1200D placed right behind MLP
-FTWs placed in front corners?
-FV15HPs placed in rear corners/ nearfield

DotJun 05-03-2016 09:26 AM

Hey Dom, so you bumped up 25-125hz roughly using this mbm and you are gaining increased tactile response?

Can I ask why you didn't just eq this range with your existing setup?

dominguez1 05-03-2016 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefthandluke (Post 43747730)
nice dom!
I'm gonna hafta try mine nearfield now...!


just curious how close to your seat did u place the 1200 and at what gain position...?
did u experiment with the "boost" option...?

The sub is around a foot away from the mlp. Gain is at the 10 or 11 mark, and right now the 10db boost is on between 40 and 50hz or so.

These are the dials I used to get them integrated the best without touching current eq settings.

Its funny, compared to my other subs this could be classified as "cute"...but it really packs some heat! I can't believe it keeps up.

And for 299, it's a steal for a compact mbm.

chadamir 05-03-2016 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryansboston (Post 43747874)
Sounds like you got the tactile response you are looking for! I'm jealous! I am very interested in the details of how you have this all set up.

IE.. -? receiver dual sub out to dual PEQ,
-set LPF to 45 HPF to 80 for 1200D,
-set HPF to ? for FTW 21
-set HPF to ? for FV 15HP
-Settings on each sub set to ?
-1200D placed right behind MLP
-FTWs placed in front corners?
-FV15HPs placed in rear corners/ nearfield

You have LPF and hpf reversed. High pass "passes" signals higher than it. LPF passes signals lower than it.

dominguez1 05-03-2016 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryansboston (Post 43747874)
Sounds like you got the tactile response you are looking for! I'm jealous! I am very interested in the details of how you have this all set up.

IE.. -? receiver dual sub out to dual PEQ,
-set LPF to 45 HPF to 80 for 1200D,
-set HPF to ? for FTW 21
-set HPF to ? for FV 15HP
-Settings on each sub set to ?
-1200D placed right behind MLP
-FTWs placed in front corners?
-FV15HPs placed in rear corners/ nearfield

Actually, single sub out split 3 ways. 1 goes to 1 PEQ, and that splits to my front FTW21s. Another goes to the other PEQ, and that splits to my nearfield FV15HPs. The last one goes directly to the 1200D.

I do not have any HPFs or LPFs other than the ones naturally set by the vented subs themselves as part of the design.

With the FTWs and FVs, I get as flat as possible using my PEQs, and then run Audessey. After Audessey, I may tweak each PEQ a bit depending on how the Audessey curve looks like.

When I integrated the 1200D (directly behind the MLP), I just plugged it into the existing FR, and dialed it in using the settings on the back of the 1200D.

Voila!

dominguez1 05-03-2016 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DotJun (Post 43752122)
Hey Dom, so you bumped up 25-125hz roughly using this mbm and you are gaining increased tactile response?

Can I ask why you didn't just eq this range with your existing setup?

Great question! The short answer is, given my EQ rig, I'm pretty limited once Audessey is done. This is the challenge when integrating sealed and ported, and then tweaking after Audessey...EQ tweaks vary. A increase in one band, could cause a decrease in another band...so it becomes a trial and error thing. It can definitely be done as you can see from my FR, but it doesn't behave how you think it should and just takes more time.

The real question (which I do plan to test) is if there is more TR from this MBM compared to the FV at the MBMs tune around 50-60hz...more to come on that, but will probably be a couple weeks until I perform that test because of a busy non-avs schedule. :)

Right now, all I can say is that this 1200D is a very effective and crazy affordable MBM that works well in my setup. I still need to determine if it's more effective that the FV in the same position.

bear123 05-03-2016 07:51 PM

I can also attest to the benefits of a MBM. I have been running an HST-18 and HT-18 in 4ft^3 sealed cabs and recently sold the HT-18 to upgrade to the UM-18, but it is out of stock for several months. So I ordered a PA-460 pro audio driver for $89 that is 98 dB efficient. Dropped it right in to the 4ft^3 sealed cab which is too large i.e. not ideal and powered it with one channel of my Inuke6k with no filter, just running it full range. It integrated will with my HST-18 and added very substantial mid bass kick. In fact, I demo'd it for my wife at reference level with music and she made me turn it down. She had an anxiety attack and said she did not like it. That it was too "sharp". I was like, huh? So she rephrased: "It's too punchy, feels like I am being kicked in the chest". Victory. Seriously though, the mad bass slam was too much for her and she became very distressed....took about 15 minutes for her to relax or calm down from it. So music volume limit with her is now about -15, but alone, reference level rocks hard. I think this combination will be very difficult to beat, but at this point I still have the UM-18 on order. I am considering building a 4 ft^3 dual opposed sealed cab for PA-460's to use permanently as my 2nd sub. Can only accommodate two total in my room, and the HST is very solid by itself down low in my room.

I can tell you that the PA-460 produced sine wave sweeps up to +10 dB above reference running hot with no compression above 40 Hz. When I get time I would like to compare sweeps between it and the HST with the power I have available.

derrickdj1 05-03-2016 08:43 PM

The poor wives have to put up with us bass heads, lol.

coolrda 05-05-2016 10:14 AM

I dig all the Behringer gear. It just works. Got a friend that used to DJ that lends me his very nice rig when needed. 4xB212 and 2xB208's and they sound fantastic even with orchestra and classical music.

Ok, so this thread starts out with a bang. You got Derrick and MK's graphs working, detailed explanation, things are rocking. And you know how much I'm a sucker for pics and graphs. Don't know why but it just is. Anyway things are flowing.......right up to Post#18:eek:. What is that? Is that graph laid on its side? I don't get it......uh.....sigh:o oh........I see now.....frequency response(getting magnifying glass to verify I read correctly). Huh? Stupid computer:mad:, why did it redirect me to another thread about frequency response. Now I gotta go find that cool thread about MBM TACTILE RESPONSE.

Bro, your killing me:D.

Oledurt 05-05-2016 01:26 PM

Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response
 
I have a HSU MBM 12 MK2 with two Rythmik F15 HP's in a 2000 cubic foot dedicated basement home theater. The bass in my theater is stunning. It took some creativity and a little work to get it all set up right but I will share a little of what I did to help anyone out.

First off, an advantage of the Rythmik subs is they have a built in switch that will give you a 50hz 24/db crossover which perfectly matches the hsu mbm rolloff.

I use a hybrid Geddes subwoofer placement approach. So here is how I have them set. One subwoofer is on the front wall between my center and main. It is setup to handle all frequencies from the avr crossover down to 20 hz. It is plugged into sub one on my Pioneer Elite SC99 receiver.

Next I have another Rythmik in the opposite back corner set up to only handle LF bass below 50hz down to 20hz. I have the MBM placed 1 foot behind my seat very nearfield. It is gained matched to the rear subwoofer. The MBM plays from avr crossover (set at 80hz) down to its natural rolloff of 50hz. I plug the rear sub and the MBM into the AVR sub 2 output via a y splitter.

I run MCACC Pro, and it sets proper delay, and levels and eq to the subs and other speakers.

This is how I have basically done it. So how does it sound? Freaking amazing. Downright scary sometimes at the seat. Does not distract you from movie just adds that killer mid bass punch, and evens out the room response so you get great low bass as well.

Something important to make sure you do properly is gain match the mbm with the sub I use test tones at 80hz off of sound doctor setup cd.

That is it. I hope people find this helpful.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

MKtheater 05-06-2016 09:07 AM

I never had better midbass than my twin, front loaded, folded horn, pro audio 18's. They could really hit that chest. They were big and ugly but cheap! I should integrate a pair into the setup.

DotJun 05-06-2016 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKtheater (Post 43831554)
I never had better midbass than my twin, front loaded, folded horn, pro audio 18's. They could really hit that chest. They were big and ugly but cheap! I should integrate a pair into the setup.


Due to incredible spl or enclosure type is where I was leading the question. As in, did you compare them with other systems at the same volume?

dominguez1 05-08-2016 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oledurt (Post 43813338)
I have a HSU MBM 12 MK2 with two Rythmik F15 HP's in a 2000 cubic foot dedicated basement home theater. The bass in my theater is stunning. It took some creativity and a little work to get it all set up right but I will share a little of what I did to help anyone out.

First off, an advantage of the Rythmik subs is they have a built in switch that will give you a 50hz 24/db crossover which perfectly matches the hsu mbm rolloff.

I use a hybrid Geddes subwoofer placement approach. So here is how I have them set. One subwoofer is on the front wall between my center and main. It is setup to handle all frequencies from the avr crossover down to 20 hz. It is plugged into sub one on my Pioneer Elite SC99 receiver.

Next I have another Rythmik in the opposite back corner set up to only handle LF bass below 50hz down to 20hz. I have the MBM placed 1 foot behind my seat very nearfield. It is gained matched to the rear subwoofer. The MBM plays from avr crossover (set at 80hz) down to its natural rolloff of 50hz. I plug the rear sub and the MBM into the AVR sub 2 output via a y splitter.

I run MCACC Pro, and it sets proper delay, and levels and eq to the subs and other speakers.

This is how I have basically done it. So how does it sound? Freaking amazing. Downright scary sometimes at the seat. Does not distract you from movie just adds that killer mid bass punch, and evens out the room response so you get great low bass as well.

Something important to make sure you do properly is gain match the mbm with the sub I use test tones at 80hz off of sound doctor setup cd.

That is it. I hope people find this helpful.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Very nice. Definitely takes work, but the results are worth it. :cool:

Is the MBM nearfield?

dominguez1 05-08-2016 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolrda (Post 43808026)
I dig all the Behringer gear. It just works. Got a friend that used to DJ that lends me his very nice rig when needed. 4xB212 and 2xB208's and they sound fantastic even with orchestra and classical music.

Ok, so this thread starts out with a bang. You got Derrick and MK's graphs working, detailed explanation, things are rocking. And you know how much I'm a sucker for pics and graphs. Don't know why but it just is. Anyway things are flowing.......right up to Post#18:eek:. What is that? Is that graph laid on its side? I don't get it......uh.....sigh:o oh........I see now.....frequency response(getting magnifying glass to verify I read correctly). Huh? Stupid computer:mad:, why did it redirect me to another thread about frequency response. Now I gotta go find that cool thread about MBM TACTILE RESPONSE.

Bro, your killing me:D.

LOL...took me a while to get this "graph laying on its side". Ha, I know, I know, way overdue for VS, but it's coming...just a couple more weeks or so...;)

coolrda 05-08-2016 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43870922)
LOL...took me a while to get this "graph laying on its side". Ha, I know, I know, way overdue for VS, but it's coming...just a couple more weeks or so...;)

Sweet. Hey, MK changed his avatar. Nice.

Oledurt 05-08-2016 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43870858)
Very nice. Definitely takes work, but the results are worth it. :cool:

Is the MBM nearfield?

yes the mbm is 12 inches directly behind the seat.

dominguez1 05-08-2016 02:23 PM

Quick update:

Had 15min to get some more impressions of this little guy today. Watched TIH, University scene. Definitely more impact and slam compared to without it. Ran it at reference +5 hot...no sounds of strain at all.

Also, this was the first time I listened to a scene beside the MLP...WOW! Midbass is WAY more pronounced compared to off. Compared to the MLP, the side seat improvement is far greater! I've always had trouble replicating the TR to these side seats compared to the MLP, and this definitely gets them closer...especially in the midbass region.

Wasn't expecting that at all...stoked about that one!

The 1200D didn't really improve the sonic cannon scene...which it shouldn't as those cannons are centered around 14hz or so. When I remember back when I had an FV15HP directly behind my MLP...this was by far the most tactile that scene had ever been.

It tempts me to move the FV back behind the MLP again just to see...but I remember why I did that in the first place. The side seats were such a downgrade from a TR perspective when compared to the MLP. I'd rather make some tradeoffs for MLP TR, to get a more even TR experience across all seats.

Back to MLP impressions...it's really blending very nicely, especially from a TR standpoint. IIRC, when I had the FV back there it seemed to be too heavy in TR (almost too pronounced), but now with the 1200D back there and the FVs behind the side seats, I seem to get a good blend of ULF TR and Midbass TR; one doesn't over power the other, which I seem to remember having trouble with when the FV was behind the MLP.

Jk7.2 05-09-2016 05:49 PM

71 Attachment(s)
Nice discussion! I read through it and decided to try two DIYSG mbm's nearfeild, in the flat pack front ported enclosure. Even tough they are ported and my main subs are sealed (IB) the experience is much better! I am not having trouble integrating them. I am so glad I did it, so thanks for the info guys and the positive experiences!

dominguez1 05-09-2016 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk7.2 (Post 43908266)
Nice discussion! I read through it and decided to try two DIYSG mbm's nearfeild, in the flat pack front ported enclosure. Even tough they are ported and my main subs are sealed (IB) the experience is much better! I am not having trouble integrating them. I am so glad I did it, so thanks for the info guys and the positive experiences!

Very cool! Congrats!

I was looking at those DIYSG MBMs...might have attempted it if the 1200D wasn't so cheap, and perfect size for my setup.

I watched The Big Short last night...not a bass movie for sure, with this MBM behind me, the music hit HARD...sort of distracting really. I'm going some scenes without the MBM to see if it's just the movie...

Anyone else watch that movie? Did you find the midbass hot in that one?

coolrda 05-09-2016 07:28 PM

I'm confused. Is this one or a pair? and what is the current layout of all your .1 gear?

dominguez1 05-09-2016 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolrda (Post 43910770)
I'm confused. Is this one or a pair? and what is the current layout of all your .1 gear?

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/153891.jpg

Here's a shot of my FVs flanking the MLP. They are not directly behind the MLP, but directly behind the two sections beside the MLP.

The 1200D now sits between the bar stools, directly behind the MLP.

The FTW21s are in the corners in the front of the room:

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/158861.jpg

In the above pic, the Left and Right Fusion 12s sit on top of the FTWs.

I just got done playing The Big Short without the MBM...it felt a lot more natural with the screen action, whereas with the MBM, it sounded great...if I was just listening to music and not a movie. With the movie, there was too much TR...

Hmmm...may have to do some tweaking. I personally like finding an EQ setting that works for everything, all the time, and I don't have to adjust.

Anyone else watch The Big Short and thought at times the music had too much TR?

Hopinater 05-10-2016 03:18 PM

Thanks Dom for starting this thread, it's great and I've learned a lot. My quest is for more mid bass punch so now I'm thinking hard about a near field MBM.

dominguez1 05-10-2016 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopinater (Post 43931546)
Thanks Dom for starting this thread, it's great and I've learned a lot. My quest is for more mid bass punch so now I'm thinking hard about a near field MBM.

Awesome...glad its helpful. That's the goal. :)

For 299 and free shipping from amazon, this 1200D is a no brainer to give it a go! Its a very small foot print, and tuning is right at the mid bass frequencies.

Its a pro sub, so you'll need the proper cables...but those are pretty cheap.

MKtheater 05-10-2016 08:49 PM

Nah, enough 18's will cover any mid bass problems.

coolrda 05-10-2016 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43911514)
http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/153891.jpg

Here's a shot of my FVs flanking the MLP. They are not directly behind the MLP, but directly behind the two sections beside the MLP.

The 1200D now sits between the bar stools, directly behind the MLP.

The FTW21s are in the corners in the front of the room:

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/158861.jpg

In the above pic, the Left and Right Fusion 12s sit on top of the FTWs.

I just got done playing The Big Short without the MBM...it felt a lot more natural with the screen action, whereas with the MBM, it sounded great...if I was just listening to music and not a movie. With the movie, there was too much TR...

Hmmm...may have to do some tweaking. I personally like finding an EQ setting that works for everything, all the time, and I don't have to adjust.

Anyone else watch The Big Short and thought at times the music had too much TR?

I'm thinking you need to place the MBM under your center. If two are deployed, then place in corners or under left and right mains. You should have better response and a more coherent sound. I e been mulling over building 2-4 mbm's to place under my screen. I want ported with a 20hz tune or lower though.

dominguez1 05-11-2016 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKtheater (Post 43938882)
Nah, enough 18's will cover any mid bass problems.

Do multiple 18s cost more than 299? :D

Point being, the 1200D Near field is a cheap solution to try...and you're only out $25 or so for return shipping if it doesn't satisfy.

coolrda 05-11-2016 11:40 AM

The MBM's I've experience have a very, shall we say sharply defined kick to them. I don't want to say an 18 can't do that as there's ones that do. Certainly parameters have their say in the matter but I think extension, LF cutoff too plays a role. I don't believe in a smaller driver being faster, but if a sub is hpf'd we perceive it as being faster as we're not hearing or sensing LF/ULF aspects. Whenever I've moved the hpf up or down on a speaker it gives the illusion of quickness changing. When done correctly,there's advantages to specific bandpass drivers. You could say it specializes in its specific bandpass that it was made for(Maximus 12 comes to mind).

Jk7.2 05-11-2016 02:44 PM

71 Attachment(s)
What I have enjoyed so far about having mid bass modules nearfeild is this. They don't seem to really effect the overall sound in the room, that is a positive for me personally. It just adds a tactile feel that is hard to describe. Because they are so close, I set mine up to be a few db's less then my main subs, and I can't localize them, but the feel is awesome. And even though the boxes are tuned to 35 Hz, they seem to extend much lower. I took my two buttkickers off my theater chairs and put the MBM's back there, and I like the MBM's better. Just my $0.02. I'll probably use both though once I get around to it. :smiley:

dominguez1 05-11-2016 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolrda (Post 43940370)
I'm thinking you need to place the MBM under your center. If two are deployed, then place in corners or under left and right mains. You should have better response and a more coherent sound. I e been mulling over building 2-4 mbm's to place under my screen. I want ported with a 20hz tune or lower though.

I honestly don't think I need it. I'm pretty happy with my response, and never thought I lacked midbass.

I just wanted to see if the nearfield mbm would take it to another level...which it has! But based on the last movie I watched, it might be too much...

I will also be testing soon with VS the difference in TR between my FV's and the 1200D. I'll calibrate to the same SPL, and then measure with VS. First test will be the dual FVs flanking the couch, vs the 1200D directly behind the MLP. Second test will be 1 FV behind the MLP and compare it to the 1200D results. I'll also probably test the side seats as well.

For those of you that run nearfield subs: @Archaea , @Scott Simonian , @eng-399 , @carp , @derrickdj1 , @coolrda

Do you find the midbass too much with some movies that don't call for it? Do you EQ your nearfield subs flat, or favoring the LF or ULF range?

Archaea 05-11-2016 04:37 PM

312 Attachment(s)
my subs are eq'ed more or less flat, including my nearfield. I most enjoy the nearfield subwoofers for their low end wobble feel they create (from the <20hz content) that otherwise I don't get on my basement concrete slab. I do think midbass can be overwhelming nearfield if cranked too high - i'm personally not a big fan of emphasizing just the midbass (something like the HSU MBM, which I experienced at carp's initially - directly behind me pales to a single 18" sealed placed directly behind which covers the whole subwoofer frequency spectrum).

eng-399 05-11-2016 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43959650)
I honestly don't think I need it. I'm pretty happy with my response, and never thought I lacked midbass.



I just wanted to see if the nearfield mbm would take it to another level...which it has! But based on the last movie I watched, it might be too much...



I will also be testing soon with VS the difference in TR between my FV's and the 1200D. I'll calibrate to the same SPL, and then measure with VS. First test will be the dual FVs flanking the couch, vs the 1200D directly behind the MLP. Second test will be 1 FV behind the MLP and compare it to the 1200D results. I'll also probably test the side seats as well.



For those of you that run nearfield subs: @Archaea , @Scott Simonian , @eng-399 , @carp , @derrickdj1 , @coolrda



Do you find the midbass too much with some movies that don't call for it? Do you EQ your nearfield subs flat, or favoring the LF or ULF range?



I have all my subs flat.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...3f8fd8e9f4.jpg
I have them now from 20-130hz. I felt like anything above 130 with the nearfields didn't sound good. I like a lot of bass in the room and having the shake and punch in the back of the seats brings more excitement to the movie. I am going to try a lower xo point on the nearfields and see how that is like maybe having them up to 100hz. I'm still playing around with them and all the settings. I would try a few things out and see what you like in your room. It's fun messing around in there.

derrickdj1 05-11-2016 05:32 PM

My subs are several feet from the couch due to room layout. So, just barely nearfield. I keep them a bit on the low side as far as, calibration. I think the midbass is good but, I have never heard a MBM watching a full movie. I do find if the nearfield subs are to high or the TT's set to high if does interfer with crispness of the sound. It may be the deep stuff that interfers and not the midbass. This also applies to the TT. I am not hearing them but the ULF may be the culprit.

carp 05-11-2016 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 43959650)
I honestly don't think I need it. I'm pretty happy with my response, and never thought I lacked midbass.

I just wanted to see if the nearfield mbm would take it to another level...which it has! But based on the last movie I watched, it might be too much...

I will also be testing soon with VS the difference in TR between my FV's and the 1200D. I'll calibrate to the same SPL, and then measure with VS. First test will be the dual FVs flanking the couch, vs the 1200D directly behind the MLP. Second test will be 1 FV behind the MLP and compare it to the 1200D results. I'll also probably test the side seats as well.

For those of you that run nearfield subs: @Archaea , @Scott Simonian , @eng-399 , @carp , @derrickdj1 , @coolrda

Do you find the midbass too much with some movies that don't call for it? Do you EQ your nearfield subs flat, or favoring the LF or ULF range?


Here is my current setting on my nearfield sub for movies. I agree that too much midbass can be distracting. I don't need to feel it in my chest when a door shuts, haha, although it is kind of cool...

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...psti0oxfsz.png

carp 05-11-2016 05:44 PM

I should clarify....

The above EQ setting doesn't even get me to flat on the NF sub, I still have quite the drop off below 40hz. I think that's just how it is with a sub in the middle of the room. I'll try to find a measurement, it's not pretty.

coolrda 05-11-2016 09:30 PM

The TR of nearfield MBMs and Subs are different because of their FR and intended bandwidth. My preference for an MBM is next to or under the LCR's. In my case the FR is smoother and it helps squash my huge, nasty 40hz peak. When TR gets above .2g's it becomes imposing and can be a distraction. Then again, too much is a good problem to have. I say place it under your center or as near as you can and try it. Now, having said that, I'm not given up my 18's or my ULF response for nothing.

dominguez1 05-12-2016 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaea (Post 43959970)
I do think midbass can be overwhelming nearfield if cranked too high - i'm personally not a big fan of emphasizing just the midbass (something like the HSU MBM, which I experienced at carp's initially - directly behind me pales to a single 18" sealed placed directly behind which covers the whole subwoofer frequency spectrum).

When you say "pales in comparison", do you mean that the 18" is more effective in the midbass region, or the HSU MBM was?

So, in your current setup, the nearfield midbass is not distracting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eng-399 (Post 43960034)
I have all my subs flat.
I have them now from 20-130hz. I felt like anything above 130 with the nearfields didn't sound good. I like a lot of bass in the room and having the shake and punch in the back of the seats brings more excitement to the movie. I am going to try a lower xo point on the nearfields and see how that is like maybe having them up to 100hz. I'm still playing around with them and all the settings. I would try a few things out and see what you like in your room. It's fun messing around in there.

Nice FR!

So you don't find it the midbass distracting on movies that don't call for big bass?

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 43961362)
I should clarify....

The above EQ setting doesn't even get me to flat on the NF sub, I still have quite the drop off below 40hz. I think that's just how it is with a sub in the middle of the room. I'll try to find a measurement, it's not pretty.

I can't remember...do you run both an 18in sealed and the HSU MBM nearfield? Have you tried both? Can you tell a difference in TR between the two for midbass?

carp 05-12-2016 05:28 AM

No, I retired the HSU MBM immediately after experiencing the SI 18 in the same spot. The HSU was like a toy in comparison. I never tried to compare them with a HPF filter with a steep slope at 50hz for the SI... I guess I could out of curiosity.

I've experienced dual Othorns nearfield. They are ridiculous - and very fun and it was on a suspended floor!! :cool: However, I don't feel the urge to have anything more than just a single 18 in my own room - which is good, I don't have room between the rows for anything else.

dominguez1 05-15-2016 05:10 PM

Well @coolrda , you were right...my clark transducers are fried...tried to dial them in today, and well, there is no dial. Deed.

The good news is, is that this little MBM does a much better job for the side seats! This is actually the biggest surprise of this 1200D, is the effect it has on the side seats. HUGE boost in midbass slam...HUGE. Like I said, this mbm does a much better job than my transducers (which weren't really used for ULF as the FVs handled that department, but more of the 'simulated' midbass slam).

So unfortunately...no VS on the Clark's...

Also, I did move the 1200D back about 4 inches, and that seemed to help tame the "midblass" slam a bit...will have to wait and see for the next non-LFE movie to know for sure.

dominguez1 05-15-2016 06:42 PM

Just watched a good portion of Force Awakens again...HUGE difference in midbass slam. I thought the TR was perfect between the FVs ULF and the MBM LF! Big, big difference. It was like watching the movie for the first time again, it was that different.

The decision has been made: the 1200D is a keeper and has earned its way into my HT. Nearfield, it holds its own at above reference levels with my FTW21s and my FV15HPs. I still can't get over that this is less than $300...crazy.

Still planning on performing the VS tests, but regardless of the results, this has found its home. Very impressed. :cool:

SBuger 05-15-2016 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44050306)
Just watched a good portion of Force Awakens again...HUGE difference in midbass slam. I thought the TR was perfect between the FVs ULF and the MBM LF! Big, big difference. It was like watching the movie for the first time again, it was that different.

The decision has been made: the 1200D is a keeper and has earned its way into my HT. Nearfield, it holds its own at above reference levels with my FTW21s and my FV15HPs. I still can't get over that this is less than $300...crazy.

Still planning on performing the VS tests, but regardless of the results, this has found its home. Very impressed. :cool:

Awesome! I'm glad to hear it made such a huge difference. I've enjoyed following along and will definitely keep this in mind if I started feeling the need for more mid bass slam. Thanks for sharing the info! :)

coolrda 05-15-2016 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44048626)
Well @coolrda , you were right...my clark transducers are fried...tried to dial them in today, and well, there is no dial. Deed.

The good news is, is that this little MBM does a much better job for the side seats! This is actually the biggest surprise of this 1200D, is the effect it has on the side seats. HUGE boost in midbass slam...HUGE. Like I said, this mbm does a much better job than my transducers (which weren't really used for ULF as the FVs handled that department, but more of the 'simulated' midbass slam).

So unfortunately...no VS on the Clark's...

Also, I did move the 1200D back about 4 inches, and that seemed to help tame the "midblass" slam a bit...will have to wait and see for the next non-LFE movie to know for sure.

That's too bad about the Clarks as I know they make good TT's. No worries. Great to hear the MBM is delivering the goods. I'm taking a serious look at those. I broke both my laptops yesterday. The netbook running WinXP was bad enough as that ran all my peripherals, Omnimic, MiniDSP, HCFR, WinISD, But then I knocked my pristine 8 yesr old MacBook off my nightstand and broke it. All the pics and files of all kinds of my last 4 HT room builds, all gone. It just gutted me. These things happen. Anyway, I got a new Win10 HP laptop. I'm pretty intimidated by windows os as its been a decade since I've used MS software. Hopefully I can get it all to work and re eq and load everything back up by next weekend and post some thought.

DotJun 05-15-2016 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolrda (Post 44052602)
That's too bad about the Clarks as I know they make good TT's. No worries. Great to hear the MBM is delivering the goods. I'm taking a serious look at those. I broke both my laptops yesterday. The netbook running WinXP was bad enough as that ran all my peripherals, Omnimic, MiniDSP, HCFR, WinISD, But then I knocked my pristine 8 yesr old MacBook off my nightstand and broke it. All the pics and files of all kinds of my last 4 HT room builds, all gone. It just gutted me. These things happen. Anyway, I got a new Win10 HP laptop. I'm pretty intimidated by windows os as its been a decade since I've used MS software. Hopefully I can get it all to work and re eq and load everything back up by next weekend and post some thought.


No backup solution?

coolrda 05-16-2016 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DotJun (Post 44052810)
No backup solution?

Several backups but the drives have failed prior to this happening. Sloppy file management on my part.

dominguez1 05-16-2016 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolrda (Post 44052602)
That's too bad about the Clarks as I know they make good TT's. No worries. Great to hear the MBM is delivering the goods. I'm taking a serious look at those. I broke both my laptops yesterday. The netbook running WinXP was bad enough as that ran all my peripherals, Omnimic, MiniDSP, HCFR, WinISD, But then I knocked my pristine 8 yesr old MacBook off my nightstand and broke it. All the pics and files of all kinds of my last 4 HT room builds, all gone. It just gutted me. These things happen. Anyway, I got a new Win10 HP laptop. I'm pretty intimidated by windows os as its been a decade since I've used MS software. Hopefully I can get it all to work and re eq and load everything back up by next weekend and post some thought.

Ugh, that really sucks. I used a cloud based backup...$5 a month or so, and backs up to their cloud server. DONE.

Been meaning to get back on the VS thread to ask more questions about the Crowsons...plenty to learn there and just at the tip of the iceberg...for example:

Is TR linear to SPL? IOW, can we predict what max TR is based on 75-80db test?

Assuming ported produces more TR around tune, at what output does a sealed sub need to be at to recreate the TR?

How does the crowson TR subjectively compare to your sub TR at the same level at the MLP?

When your gear is up and running, I'll pop these (and more) in your thread... :)

coolrda 05-16-2016 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44073442)
Ugh, that really sucks. I used a cloud based backup...$5 a month or so, and backs up to their cloud server. DONE.

Been meaning to get back on the VS thread to ask more questions about the Crowsons...plenty to learn there and just at the tip of the iceberg...for example:

Is TR linear to SPL? IOW, can we predict what max TR is based on 75-80db test?

Assuming ported produces more TR around tune, at what output does a sealed sub need to be at to recreate the TR?

How does the crowson TR subjectively compare to your sub TR at the same level at the MLP?

When your gear is up and running, I'll pop these (and more) in your thread... :)

Great questions Dom. I started writing up a review that has turned into a novel:eek:. It started as a product review but has since crossed over to include all of these threads together. It's farmigrated into a massive LF/ULF journey experience thing. Part of it is a TMI on the Crowsons. There will be some good subjective thoughts and objective data. I've read all I ever want too on seat testing and terminology. I've done more research into accelerometer testing and found that VibSensor testing is actually better suited for random vibration testing than the constant vibration. Random being movie demos and Constant being sines and sweeps. There'll be a ton VS testing over the coming months. Found some interesting VS data on the Crowsons with the tests run so far.

SBuger 05-16-2016 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44073442)
Assuming ported produces more TR around tune, at what output does a sealed sub need to be at to recreate the TR?

I can kind of answer this one. I just moved from the FV right behind me (at 12hz tune) to 3 sealed 18's right behind my couch (one behind each seat). I wanted 18's but still needed to stay with a pretty small footprint and still have the ULF. Since I'm so used to having the FV right behind me, from what I can tell so far (subjectively), is that below 17hz or so, the sealed need to be about 6db higher to get about the same feel. So pretty much what you guys proved in your ULF thread. Fortunately with them being able to take quite a bit of amp power and gaining 7-9db across the board going from 1 to 3 because they are basically co located, its not to much of a problem to boost it up there.

mrcoop 05-17-2016 05:22 AM

I had jtr triple 12 and still couldnt get the mid bass slam...maybe my room, but decided to get hsu mbm's nearfiled and it made a world of distance...sold those and and just built 2 mbm's diy soundgroup flatpacks with the magnum 12...oh my goodness..these thing are just insane! some say get better mains, but sometimes that still just doesnt work.

dominguez1 05-17-2016 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBuger (Post 44077402)
I can kind of answer this one. I just moved from the FV right behind me (at 12hz tune) to 3 sealed 18's right behind my couch (one behind each seat). I wanted 18's but still needed to stay with a pretty small footprint and still have the ULF. Since I'm so used to having the FV right behind me, from what I can tell so far (subjectively), is that below 17hz or so, the sealed need to be about 6db higher to get about the same feel. So pretty much what you guys proved in your ULF thread. Fortunately with them being able to take quite a bit of amp power and gaining 7-9db across the board going from 1 to 3 because they are basically co located, its not to much of a problem to boost it up there.

Very cool...more evidence (subjective or not) is always insightful. :cool: I've found the FVs to be TR monsters...probably because of the low tune, but perhaps its the overall design.

So, you have 3 18s behind you now compared to 1 FV before? Is that right?

So with 3 18s, you needed to raise the level of the combined subs by 6db in order to subjectively match the FV? How about the other frequencies? Are they equivalent? Is it just around tune that there seems to be more impact?

Have you ever tried the VibSensor app? You can turn subjective into objective... :D

dominguez1 05-17-2016 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcoop (Post 44079410)
I had jtr triple 12 and still couldnt get the mid bass slam...maybe my room, but decided to get hsu mbm's nearfiled and it made a world of distance...sold those and and just built 2 mbm's diy soundgroup flatpacks with the magnum 12...oh my goodness..these thing are just insane! some say get better mains, but sometimes that still just doesnt work.

I remember reading a post from you somewhere about that...interesting.

I thought about building those DIYSG MBMs, but stumbled across the cheap 1200D. It sounds like the DIYSG MBMs have a lot more impact? Were they in the same positions and calibrated to the same levels?

mrcoop 05-17-2016 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44100002)
I remember reading a post from you somewhere about that...interesting.

I thought about building those DIYSG MBMs, but stumbled across the cheap 1200D. It sounds like the DIYSG MBMs have a lot more impact? Were they in the same positions and calibrated to the same levels?

I have them temporarily in my living room. My theater is getting ready for a remodel but I put the 2 magnums nearfield and they hit hard...seemed much harder then the hsu's but...The only problem the hsu's were in the theater room and never in the living room so I really couldn't make a comparison but my living room is big...33x16 with 18' ceilings. My theater room is only about 2600 cubic ft. That may not matter since they were nearfield...the magnums just play effortlessly, even if I decide to really put the hammer to them.

SBuger 05-17-2016 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44099946)
Very cool...more evidence (subjective or not) is always insightful. :cool: I've found the FVs to be TR monsters...probably because of the low tune, but perhaps its the overall design.

So, you have 3 18s behind you now compared to 1 FV before? Is that right?

So with 3 18s, you needed to raise the level of the combined subs by 6db in order to subjectively match the FV? How about the other frequencies? Are they equivalent? Is it just around tune that there seems to be more impact?

Have you ever tried the VibSensor app? You can turn subjective into objective... :D

Yes the FV's are definitely TR monsters! Probably because of what you mention - low tune and perhaps the overall design. I love the thing and the SQ is wonderful IMO! It's a damn nice sub, as I'm sure you would agree :) I just wish it had more power and was a little fuller/thicker from 50ish down to about 20ish like the cap (more power and thicker in that range). I've just gotten to the point of wanting more and more and more bass impact (I've got the sickness), hence the decision to go with 18's right behind me that would have a lot more power on tap, even if they are not ported. I'd love to have 3 18'" ported subs right behind me that were tuned to 12hz, but dont really see that as an option, even if there was one available right now (I think Rythmik has one in the works). Even then its probably going to be to big to have one behind my couch, much less three. I wanted one behind each of my seats on the 3 seat couch. I guess I could have just bought two more FV's , and I thought about that, but decided to go DIY sealed because of the small footprint, savings and still have really good ULF. Also the FV's are pretty deep and hung out pretty far behind my couch and kind of went into the dining area, which is open to the back side of my living room and also the wires sticking out from the plate amp (one of the downsides of having your HT in the living room).

So yes, 3 sealed 18's behind me now instead of 1 FV. But still just one directly behind me and the other two behind the other two seats, which are still pretty close. But as you probably know, even moving the driver away form your back two to three inches or more, reduces the tactile effect quite a bit. But the other two do help with TR a little and also makes is sound and feel a little fuller and hit a bit harder.

I mainly did my comparisons to the FV with just one behind me because I wanted it to be somewhat of a more apples to apples comparison (although its an 18 vs 15 and sealed vs ported). I was curious how they would compare to one other. So yes, about 6 db more subjectively under 17hz or so to get that same kind of wobble feel. I then tried 3 of them and was able to lower the gain about 4 clicks (almost 2db per click) on 3 different inuke channels giving way more headroom. The wobble was a little better with the three. I could probably now pick the low end up a fair amount more. With some pretty spirited demos I never really saw where the lights were close to clipping. Also its really cool to have a simlar experience in all three seats now, opposed to just the seat with the sub behind it. A driver being that close to you makes one hell of a difference!

As far as the other frequencies go, in that 50-80hz region (I cross at 80) they are real comparable IMO, which is great because I love that area on the FV - mid bass slam is wonderful. Below that to about 20hz, it feels fuller/fatter (again subjectively) and really hits your gut, with just one and even more so with three. I guess you could say, I'm super pleased with them so far. Combine that with dual BK LFE's and dual Crowsons on the same couch, I usually have a pretty big grin on my face! :D

I haven't tried the VS app yet. Might have to do that one of these days when I get the 4th sub built and have everything really dialed in.

dominguez1 05-18-2016 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBuger (Post 44101362)
So yes, 3 sealed 18's behind me now instead of 1 FV. But still just one directly behind me and the other two behind the other two seats, which are still pretty close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBuger (Post 44101362)
Combine that with dual BK LFE's and dual Crowsons on the same couch, I usually have a pretty big grin on my face! :D

LOL, you sir are a Tactile Response FIEND! :eek: :cool:

Thanks for your explanation. I'm going to have to try the FV directly behind my seat again, and compare it to the 1200D...hmmm

More to come...

derrickdj1 05-18-2016 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolrda (Post 44075010)
Great questions Dom. I started writing up a review that has turned into a novel:eek:. It started as a product review but has since crossed over to include all of these threads together. It's farmigrated into a massive LF/ULF journey experience thing. Part of it is a TMI on the Crowsons. There will be some good subjective thoughts and objective data. I've read all I ever want too on seat testing and terminology. I've done more research into accelerometer testing and found that VibSensor testing is actually better suited for random vibration testing than the constant vibration. Random being movie demos and Constant being sines and sweeps. There'll be a ton VS testing over the coming months. Found some interesting VS data on the Crowsons with the tests run so far.

The VS testing on movies may tell us more than on sweeps and sine waves. I think sweeps and sine wave is a little more dangerous to the gear. Less time to move air and cool off.

Sometime the VS has reached the limit for a TR score. This is common with TT's.

SBuger 05-18-2016 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44127370)
LOL, you sir are a Tactile Response FIEND! :eek: :cool:

Thanks for your explanation. I'm going to have to try the FV directly behind my seat again, and compare it to the 1200D...hmmm

More to come...

lol, I do like a bit of TR :) As long as the subs are providing intense chest slam and a gut punch (which they do with drivers that close to the back), I'll take all the extra shake I can get from the TT's. At least when the listening volumes are really loud. Under about -15 or so MVC I have to back them off accordingly or its just to much. The BK's can be so strong in that 12-27hz range. I know some folks around here don't really care for them, but I lov'em. They kind of make my couch feel like its on a trampoline when they are cranked up - its almost hypnotizing in a way and kind of creates a warm fuzzy feeling. Sorry this is kind of getting off your mid bass topic, but one of my favorite movies scenes for this effect is in Pacific Rim, chapter 11, starting at about the 1:33:30sih mark when they are inside one of the fallen Kajju's and the baby's heartbeat starts pounding. The BK's (and the nearfield subs too of coarse) just shakes the livin crap out me! :) Actually that whole movie has a lot of good moments like that and is quite a ride.

I'm betting the 1200D will be stronger for mid bass compared to the FV, especially if its up against your back. But I think you said you experienced it being to strong when it was real close to the back of your chair and as mentioned by a few others, mid bass can actually be to much/intense sometimes if set to high. Seems hard to believe that one could have to much tactile mid bass, but it can be a distraction. As with most things I guess, balance is key.

When you try the FV directly behind your couch again, you may try it on its side as well as the standard upright position if you haven't already in the past. If your seat reclines, I think it works a little better this way and allows the driver to be in a little different position. Even when not reclined, I liked it a little better this way, but cant remember for sure why. It could just be the design of my couch and the way it interacts with the FV.

coolrda 05-19-2016 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrickdj1 (Post 44131986)
The VS testing on movies may tell us more than on sweeps and sine waves. I think sweeps and sine wave is a little more dangerous to the gear. Less time to move air and cool off.

Sometime the VS has reached the limit for a TR score. This is common with TT's.

Yep. I'm gonna go with a lot more dangerous. But I 'm always pushing the limits. Anyway the random vibration testing should be interesting and fun because its want we demo and watch.

dominguez1 05-22-2016 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBuger (Post 44132954)
lol, I do like a bit of TR :) As long as the subs are providing intense chest slam and a gut punch (which they do with drivers that close to the back), I'll take all the extra shake I can get from the TT's. At least when the listening volumes are really loud. Under about -15 or so MVC I have to back them off accordingly or its just to much. The BK's can be so strong in that 12-27hz range. I know some folks around here don't really care for them, but I lov'em. They kind of make my couch feel like its on a trampoline when they are cranked up - its almost hypnotizing in a way and kind of creates a warm fuzzy feeling. Sorry this is kind of getting off your mid bass topic, but one of my favorite movies scenes for this effect is in Pacific Rim, chapter 11, starting at about the 1:33:30sih mark when they are inside one of the fallen Kajju's and the baby's heartbeat starts pounding. The BK's (and the nearfield subs too of coarse) just shakes the livin crap out me! :) Actually that whole movie has a lot of good moments like that and is quite a ride.

I'm betting the 1200D will be stronger for mid bass compared to the FV, especially if its up against your back. But I think you said you experienced it being to strong when it was real close to the back of your chair and as mentioned by a few others, mid bass can actually be to much/intense sometimes if set to high. Seems hard to believe that one could have to much tactile mid bass, but it can be a distraction. As with most things I guess, balance is key.

My buddy has both Crowsons and the BKs as well. I liked the BKs a lot...I'd say they were pretty even, with a slight edge to the Crowsons as being more natural.

As far as midbass being too much...only for the content that doesn't call for it. It just becomes distracting. However, for the content that does call for it, bring it on. :D

In my case, I don't like tweaking my setting for different content, and like to find a good balance so I don't have to mess with it, and it all sounds good. I did more tweaking with the 1200D, turned it down a few db, and I think I've got it dialed in. Watched some non-LFE movies, and it's much better, but when called upon, can be pretty brutal.

Still need to find time to VibSensor the MBM vs the FV though...

SBuger 05-23-2016 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44205922)
My buddy has both Crowsons and the BKs as well. I liked the BKs a lot...I'd say they were pretty even, with a slight edge to the Crowsons as being more natural.

As far as midbass being too much...only for the content that doesn't call for it. It just becomes distracting. However, for the content that does call for it, bring it on. :D

In my case, I don't like tweaking my setting for different content, and like to find a good balance so I don't have to mess with it, and it all sounds good. I did more tweaking with the 1200D, turned it down a few db, and I think I've got it dialed in. Watched some non-LFE movies, and it's much better, but when called upon, can be pretty brutal.

Still need to find time to VibSensor the MBM vs the FV though...

I agree, the Crowsons do have a slight edge for being a little more natural. They also take the cake for under 10hz easily! I still like the BK's a tad better in the 12-25hz range, just because of there sheer ability to just shake the crap out of you when I want, but love my Crowsons for different reasons as well and wouldn't give them up for anything! :)

Cool, sounds like you have that 1200D tuned in perfectly now! I'm super happy with my midbass TR right now, but may order one one of these days just to play around with it (maybe stack it on top of one of my 18's right behind me)! :D Would probably be to much mid bass TR, but fun though!

lefthandluke 05-24-2016 07:29 PM

4 Attachment(s)
I finally got around to placing my 1200 behind my loveseat...was a little tricky as I have a suspended riser right behind it. the back half of the 1200D is on the riser and I had to make a shelf level with the riser to hold the front half (see pics)...the back of the loveseat is only about 6in from the front of the sub...


the first and as of now only demo ive done thus far is Jeff Beck live at Ronnie Scotts and I was giggling like the proverbial schoolgirl when Vinnie Colaiuta's kick drum first pounded my back...even after reading dom's experiences this still kinda caught me off guard...


dom I pretty much used your settings initially but eventually backed the subs gain off a bit to get a smoother blend...right now its between 9:30 and 10 on the dial. definitely have some tweaking to do but, fer cryin out loud, this is a effin blast!!


need to try some movies tomorrow...can't wait!


thanks fer startin this thread brother...!

Defcon 05-24-2016 11:22 PM

Any thoughts on these vs the 1200D :-

http://smile.amazon.com/Seismic-Audi.../dp/B00CPSR13E
http://smile.amazon.com/Seismic-Audi.../dp/B00F5C06T8

I only have a single SVS right now, would adding one of these as MBM make a big difference?

dominguez1 05-25-2016 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefthandluke (Post 44272978)
I finally got around to placing my 1200 behind my loveseat...was a little tricky as I have a suspended riser right behind it. the back half of the 1200D is on the riser and I had to make a shelf level with the riser to hold the front half (see pics)...the back of the loveseat is only about 6in from the front of the sub...


the first and as of now only demo ive done thus far is Jeff Beck live at Ronnie Scotts and I was giggling like the proverbial schoolgirl when Vinnie Colaiuta's kick drum first pounded my back...even after reading dom's experiences this still kinda caught me off guard...


dom I pretty much used your settings initially but eventually backed the subs gain off a bit to get a smoother blend...right now its between 9:30 and 10 on the dial. definitely have some tweaking to do but, fer cryin out loud, this is a effin blast!!


need to try some movies tomorrow...can't wait!


thanks fer startin this thread brother...!

Nice!!! Great to hear, and look forward to what you think about movies. :cool:

That has gotta be some serious slam being right up against your seating and aimed right at your chest! :eek:

What are you other subs? Single S3000?

dominguez1 05-25-2016 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defcon (Post 44276338)
Any thoughts on these vs the 1200D :-

http://smile.amazon.com/Seismic-Audi.../dp/B00CPSR13E
http://smile.amazon.com/Seismic-Audi.../dp/B00F5C06T8

I only have a single SVS right now, would adding one of these as MBM make a big difference?

http://cdn-tp1.mozu.com/2199-2317/cm...max=400&_mzcb=

Don't know much about the brand; Seismic Audio, but at first glance it looks like a lot of great value for $269 shipped.

I looked at the specs here:

http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/...Baby-Tremor_PW

The only thing that concerns me a bit is the Max SPL rating. It lists it at 108db continuous. Not sure if it's an apples to apples comparison but the 1200D lists Max SPL rating of 122db.

When I think about a good MBM pro sub, I think it's important to have the tune in the midbass range (50-60hz) or so. This sub claims to dig down to 35hz, but I think that's the -10db mark.

If you look at the FR below, you can see that it start to drop of right at the 60hz range or so...which is actually a good thing IMO for an MBM.

http://d3d71ba2asa5oz.cloudfront.net...morfrchart.jpg

This is quite a bit larger than the 1200D as well, so might be more of challenge to physically fit in your area.

Lastly, if SA is an off brand, there might be sound quality tradeoffs, but that's really hard to tell without listening to it.

Having said all that, it's tuned right and priced right, so I'd give it a shot! If you don't like it, just pay shipping back.

Keep us posted if you pull the trigger on something. :cool:

Defcon 05-25-2016 05:37 PM

The 1200D is gone from Amazon now, it was $299 earlier. I'll keep waiting, I wish there was more discussion of this kind of sub on AVS vs chasing single digits.

dominguez1 05-25-2016 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defcon (Post 44296538)
The 1200D is gone from Amazon now, it was $299 earlier. I'll keep waiting, I wish there was more discussion of this kind of sub on AVS vs chasing single digits.

Plenty of stock elsewhere for the same price:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...12_active.html

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-a...tive-subwoofer

Musician friend looks like it has a 10% Memorial day sale as well.

Part express says back in stock on 6/3.

So are you not going to give the Seismic a shot? If you have the room, I'd say go for it! Bring some more intelligence to the MBM pro sub space. :)

lefthandluke 05-25-2016 06:06 PM

I guess things work out for a reason...
if I would have offered dom the use of the 1200 just a bit earlier he would have taken me up on the offer and he would have been impressed with it and since I wasn't using it I probably would have sold it to him on the cheap and I would never have known what I would have been missing...
thank God for small favors...


I just finished playing Oblivion and the first 10 minutes or so were kinda hit or miss...in fact mostly miss as I felt the 1200 added a bit too much boom to the action. but I went ahead and let it run to the "rope break" scene and well...to put it eloquently...HOLY SHEEET!
I've never measured that scene but have always thought it to be strong in the 30hz and under zone but I felt intense massaging that I had not felt before and I've played this scene a bunch...which is a mystery to me being the berry is (I thought) at its best in the 40-70hz arena. regardless, it was a lotta fun! still have some fine-tuning to do, but what a riot!


dom my other subs are a psa s3600i and a pair of def tech trinitys...

dominguez1 05-25-2016 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefthandluke (Post 44297154)
I guess things work out for a reason...
if I would have offered dom the use of the 1200 just a bit earlier he would have taken me up on the offer and he would have been impressed with it and since I wasn't using it I probably would have sold it to him on the cheap and I would never have known what I would have been missing...
thank God for small favors...


I just finished playing Oblivion and the first 10 minutes or so were kinda hit or miss...in fact mostly miss as I felt the 1200 added a bit too much boom to the action. but I went ahead and let it run to the "rope break" scene and well...to put it eloquently...HOLY SHEEET!
I've never measured that scene but have always thought it to be strong in the 30hz and under zone but I felt intense massaging that I had not felt before and I've played this scene a bunch...which is a mystery to me being the berry is (I thought) at its best in the 40-70hz arena. regardless, it was a lotta fun! still have some fine-tuning to do, but what a riot!


dom my other subs are a psa s3600i and a pair of def tech trinitys...

I know...I've noticed the same thing! I'll be watching the famous MWB demo scenes, and this seems to be digging much deeper and more tactile than I thought it would!?!

Actually, if you look at my FR:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1462126158

It starts adding output at the 25hz or so mark...but remember that's just SPL...who knows what is happening from a Sound Intensity or Tactile Response standpoint!

dominguez1 05-26-2016 07:59 PM

So I threw in Terminator Salvation just now...

HOLY MIDBASS! :eek: :eek: :eek:

The opening credits are pretty good, but at the end of that when the Terminator Salvation title appears on the screen...the midbass was literally breath-taking. My heart raced a bit, and I seemed short of breath! :eek: :D

That's probably the best midbass scene I've experienced. I played it with and without the 1200D. Without it, it was still pretty good...however with it, it took by breath away. Cavity pressure beating kicks to the chest...

You guys gotta check that one out...keep in mind that without the 1200D I run DIYSG Fusions 12s LCR, and 4 Volt 10s for surrounds. I also have 2 FTW21s and 2 FV15HPs nearfield in a 1900cf room. Needless to say, my equipment is very capable for re-producing strong midbass.

This little 1200D nearfield made a huge difference. :cool:

dominguez1 05-26-2016 08:03 PM

@coolrda , it would be interesting to see if your crowsons could fake you into believing you had that chest cavity kick compared to your nearfield 18s....

coolrda 05-26-2016 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominguez1 (Post 44324121)
@coolrda , it would be interesting to see if your crowsons could fake you into believing you had that chest cavity kick compared to your nearfield 18s....

I'm always up for it. I'll checkout TS. We're gonna need the your MBM's VS numbers as a benchmark.

EricE 05-30-2016 06:52 AM

Exactly the thread I was looking for as I am also looking for that elusive punch in your gut midbass slam. Thanks dominguez1 as I just ordered on from bustbuy.ca Hopefully it will arrive here by Wed. so that I can try it out this weekend.

Being in the basement with concrete floor and walls doesn't help the midbass but I have enough lows with 4 IXL15's and a Submersive (which makes 6 15's...) Hopefully this little 12 will add that missing tactile response.

dominguez1 05-30-2016 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricE (Post 44386089)
Exactly the thread I was looking for as I am also looking for that elusive punch in your gut midbass slam. Thanks dominguez1 as I just ordered on from bustbuy.ca Hopefully it will arrive here by Wed. so that I can try it out this weekend.

Being in the basement with concrete floor and walls doesn't help the midbass but I have enough lows with 4 IXL15's and a Submersive (which makes 6 15's...) Hopefully this little 12 will add that missing tactile response.

Excellent! Be sure to come back and post impressions. IMO, nearfield is key for that midbass punch. Is that your plan?

EricE 05-30-2016 09:05 AM

Yes nearfield just behind the main LP.

dominguez1 05-30-2016 04:04 PM

2 Attachment(s)
So, finally got around to measuring this with VibSensor.

I ran a 50hz sine wave, and calibrated the my dual FV15HPs to 83db. Each FV15HP is flanking the MLP and about 2.5ft away.

Here is the VS result:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1464649231

I then calibrated just the 1200D to 83db and ran the 50hz sine wave. The 1200D is about 1.5ft away from the MLP:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1464649231

You can see that the 1200D is almost 10X the TR as the dual FV15HPs! :eek: Granted, the FVs aren't firing directly at the MLP, but it's a pretty significant difference.

Still not apples to apples as to do that I need the FV and 1200D in the exact same spot. However, I think this provides some insight was to what the result might be...

That test is coming...but probably not until next weekend at best. :(

derrickdj1 05-30-2016 04:25 PM

I can see the difference in the vibration graphs, post the PSD log or power spectrum graphs.

bear123 05-30-2016 05:04 PM

Dom, you should take another one for the team and drop an $89 PA-460 into a 2-3 ft^3 sealed cab and see how it compares. I put one into one of my 4ft^3 sealed boxes that is empty awaiting a UM-18 and it slams very hard. I think the combo of the PA-460 and HST-18 is much much better than the HST/HT18 combo. I'm not sure the UM-18/HST-18 combo will sound as good. I'll actually be surprised if it does.

dominguez1 05-30-2016 07:21 PM

@coolrda or others, is that what a sine wave should look like in VS? I'm playing this 50hz sine wave from Scuba Steve's Demo disk...not sure if he's modulating the sine wave, or that is just what it should look like?

dominguez1 05-30-2016 07:28 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by derrickdj1 (Post 44396697)
I can see the difference in the vibration graphs, post the PSD log or power spectrum graphs.

Here you go:

FV15HPs:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1464661454

1200D:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1464661454

You can see that the PSD shows similar results as the Vibration. The FV's peak at mid 1e-05 for X axis, and mid 1e-06 for Y and Z axis.

The 1200D peaks 1e-04 for X axis, and mid 1e-05 for Y and Z axis. Just as the Vibration graph, about 10X more.

dominguez1 05-30-2016 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bear123 (Post 44397521)
Dom, you should take another one for the team and drop an $89 PA-460 into a 2-3 ft^3 sealed cab and see how it compares. I put one into one of my 4ft^3 sealed boxes that is empty awaiting a UM-18 and it slams very hard. I think the combo of the PA-460 and HST-18 is much much better than the HST/HT18 combo. I'm not sure the UM-18/HST-18 combo will sound as good. I'll actually be surprised if it does.

Would love to get my hands on one of these....built already. :) I've read a lot of great things about them!

derrickdj1 05-30-2016 09:13 PM

I would have never imagined the MBM to be that much better the FV 15hp. I think this shows how much the room, placement and calibration can effect a subwoofer. The Power spectrum makes things easy to see.:)


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