Looking for final advice, Rythmik Subs - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 64 Old 07-13-2016, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the link. I will make sure I follow it when my sub arrives
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post #32 of 64 Old 07-14-2016, 04:27 AM
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Would it possible that once you factor in bass management and running the sub hot or Dynamic EQ, even at -25MV output levels of 100dB and up would be reached with the sub?

(Because I get up to 95dB peaks at -30MV... usually 90dB peaks though if I don't run things too hot).
To me the real problem is not whether or not the sub will be able to produce 95 dB peaks or whether it will be able to provide 100 dB peaks, as it will likely be close either way. IMO, the issue is in believing that -25 MV is the loudest someone will ever want to listen, ever. Listening habits change over time and it is good to have some extra headroom available when you suddenly decide you want to watch at -20 or -15 instead. Short sighted to assume you will never want to watch anything above a whisper level, ever.
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post #33 of 64 Old 07-14-2016, 10:01 AM
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Would it possible that once you factor in bass management and running the sub hot or Dynamic EQ, even at -25MV output levels of 100dB and up would be reached with the sub?

(Because I get up to 95dB peaks at -30MV... usually 90dB peaks though if I don't run things too hot).
To me the real problem is not whether or not the sub will be able to produce 95 dB peaks or whether it will be able to provide 100 dB peaks, as it will likely be close either way. IMO, the issue is in believing that -25 MV is the loudest someone will ever want to listen, ever. Listening habits change over time and it is good to have some extra headroom available when you suddenly decide you want to watch at -20 or -15 instead. Short sighted to assume you will never want to watch anything above a whisper level, ever.
Yeah, I recently asked Brian Ding how much output a single LV12R has at 20Hz before the room interacts with it and he said at least 101dB. That number went to 107dB at 30Hz and up to 111dB at 80Hz. I believe the F12 has 2.5dB less output at 20Hz according to the Rythmik website and so I wonder how easily a single F12's limits will be reached, even with room gain.

Even though I usually listen at -30MV, I do agree that having enough output in my case for -25MV or -20MV, without maxing out is a good idea. And based on compression sweeps, I have about 105dB at 20Hz from my single ported 12 in my 1150 cubic foot room.

Also, one might not get the full extension of the F12 for movies as the rumble filter is recommended for HT use and that filters out most stuff under 20Hz (at least on the L12).

Personally, I think ported is best for mostly HT usage, as you never know when that extra output down low will be useful.
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post #34 of 64 Old 07-14-2016, 11:24 AM
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To me the real problem is not whether or not the sub will be able to produce 95 dB peaks or whether it will be able to provide 100 dB peaks, as it will likely be close either way. IMO, the issue is in believing that -25 MV is the loudest someone will ever want to listen, ever. Listening habits change over time and it is good to have some extra headroom available when you suddenly decide you want to watch at -20 or -15 instead. Short sighted to assume you will never want to watch anything above a whisper level, ever.
I agree. While I won’t come close to listening at reference levels (just my preference), I have noticed that I listen to movies louder now than a few years ago (was around -15 to -12, and am now, more often than not, at -12 to -10). Of course when my lady friend comes over, I’m at around -20 to -17 .
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post #35 of 64 Old 07-14-2016, 11:37 AM
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I agree. While I won’t come close to listening at reference levels (just my preference), I have noticed that I listen to movies louder now than a few years ago (was around -15 to -12, and am now, more often than not, at -12 to -10). Of course when my lady friend comes over, I’m at around -20 to -17 .
+1. I was in the same boat. I went from -20 to -12 in about two years period, then I got a bunch of THESE and problem solved. Back to -20 again

Spoiler!
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post #36 of 64 Old 07-14-2016, 03:59 PM
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Thank you for the link. I will make sure I follow it when my sub arrives
You're welcome.

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post #37 of 64 Old 07-14-2016, 05:59 PM
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I agree. While I won’t come close to listening at reference levels (just my preference), I have noticed that I listen to movies louder now than a few years ago (was around -15 to -12, and am now, more often than not, at -12 to -10). Of course when my lady friend comes over, I’m at around -20 to -17 .
I don't think reference level volumes are realistic without a couple of things in place. First, I don't think most systems are capable of providing clean, distortion free, uncompressed reference level playback. So above -10, distortion is likely creeping in which is going to make things sound uncomfortably loud. Without large, high efficiency speakers, I believe clean reference level playback is more difficult than most people realize.

Second, I think a treated room can make a huge difference on how clean or comfortable reference level playback sounds, even with a system with the capability.

So when you combine not only a comfortably reference capable system, which are few and far between, along with a treated room, reference level can sound comfortably loud, vs agonizingly loud in an untreated room coupled with a system that may or may not be reference capable.

For me, even if I am alone, I have no desire to watch a movie close to reference level. -10 is usually as loud as I care to listen, but I fall into the category of untreated room, and a system that is not fully reference capable. So it is definitely uncomfortably loud for me much past -10.
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post #38 of 64 Old 07-15-2016, 07:15 AM
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I agree. While I won?t come close to listening at reference levels (just my preference), I have noticed that I listen to movies louder now than a few years ago (was around -15 to -12, and am now, more often than not, at -12 to -10). Of course when my lady friend comes over, I?m at around -20 to -17 .
I don't think reference level volumes are realistic without a couple of things in place. First, I don't think most systems are capable of providing clean, distortion free, uncompressed reference level playback. So above -10, distortion is likely creeping in which is going to make things sound uncomfortably loud. Without large, high efficiency speakers, I believe clean reference level playback is more difficult than most people realize.

Second, I think a treated room can make a huge difference on how clean or comfortable reference level playback sounds, even with a system with the capability.

So when you combine not only a comfortably reference capable system, which are few and far between, along with a treated room, reference level can sound comfortably loud, vs agonizingly loud in an untreated room coupled with a system that may or may not be reference capable.

For me, even if I am alone, I have no desire to watch a movie close to reference level. -10 is usually as loud as I care to listen, but I fall into the category of untreated room, and a system that is not fully reference capable. So it is definitely uncomfortably loud for me much past -10.
When you say large, high efficiency speakers do you mean something like PA speakers or massive towers? Or do bookshelf and center channel speakers also have the potential to do this?

Just curious.


Also, SVS told me my prime bookshelves/cc can do 105dB peaks in a small room like mine with a 80Hz or higher crossover provided I supply enough clean power, which is around 150W or so, 2m ground plane. And I do sit within 2m of the mains/cc.

However, they did also mention that such levels in my 1150 cubic foot room would be quite unpleasant.

So, does this mean that my speakers can do 105dB peaks without distortion/compression issues provided the room is treated and not so small as to make such levels unpleasant (due to flutter echo, slap ringing, pronounced standing waves, etc)?

Or does it just mean they will do 105dB peaks without falling to pieces?

The reviews I've read indicate these speakers can play very loud without breaking a sweat and when I demoed them at a local store before purchase, I saw a very loud scene in one of the newer Transformers movies at very high levels (maybe -5 or -10) and while the room and SB-1000 sub were reaching and exceeding their limits, the primes were not distorting in any obvious, audible way. And they were running off an entry level Denon AVR costing less than a pair of these $500 bookshelves.
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post #39 of 64 Old 07-15-2016, 08:12 AM
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Not sure how 12 dB of room gain was calculated but not really my area of expertise... Usually the waves add so no more than double, 6 dB, except I suppose some sort of resonant tank could be formed, but in practice those tend to have pretty low Q.

There's technically nothing wrong with excess capability, but the room is not large, and a pair of big subs is going to look out of place without contributing anything sonically, so why bother? Plus one poster said the choice was one big or two smaller... A pair of smaller subs can help smooth the room response as well as increase output in a more cost- and space-effective system. Sealed subs have lower roll-off below their -3 dB point so can provide more boost in a small room than a larger ported model would achieve. I'd rather spend the extra money on other things I really need, or want, and keep the room a little cleaner. WAF is not an issue for me but overloading the room with big boxes is not something I appreciate. Unused capability is just that, unused, and the real and opportunity cost may not be worth it. The biggest rationale I see for larger subs than needed is if the plan is to move to a bigger place later, but it rarely hurts to have an extra sub around. Ask Enrico.

IMO, YMMV, etc. - Don
Room gain in this case likely referred to the rising response in a sealed room at frequencies below the lowest resonant frequency of the room. At these frequencies the entire room is pressurized by the sub. There are no standing waves at these low frequencies because the half wave length of the frequencies is longer than the longest dimension of the room. In a perfectly rigid room there would be a 12dB per octave rising response with a sub that had a flat output to 0 Hz. Such subs are hard to find in the real world.

Basic sealed subs decline in output at 12dB per octave once their response begins to falloff at lower frequencies. In a perfect world this 12dB decline can be matched with the 12dB rising response of the room. Real rooms aren't perfectly rigid, and often have windows, and subs don't have evenly declining response to 0 Hz, so the actual gain is less than 12dB, but this is a real effect. Small rooms can have really powerful bass below the lowest resonant frequency of the room. Those with very rigid, dedicated theater rooms with no windows have likely experienced and perhaps measured this effect. Measurements using REW of my sealed, quite rigid (double separated 2 x 6 walls, double 5/8 inch drywall) media room show flat response to 10 Hz and below, once the frequency is below that of the lowest resonant frequency of the room, from simple sealed subs that are in no way capable of this response without a lot of help.
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post #40 of 64 Old 07-15-2016, 11:44 AM
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Yes, of course, I should have thought of that, thanks. Too many work days in a row...

My small'ish room helped boost my response to 7 Hz (-3 dB) with subs that have an anechoic response to 14 Hz. My walls are floating, not fixed, but I don't need any more boost down there...
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post #41 of 64 Old 07-15-2016, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a friend who can REW my room after I get my dual subs. Interesting to see the chart when it's all said and done
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post #42 of 64 Old 07-15-2016, 01:38 PM
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Once the in room -3dB is about 15Hz, is there any real world benefit of going to 10Hz or lower? Just asking...
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post #43 of 64 Old 07-16-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
Room size 11'x15 with 7' ceilings. Its in a basement with 2 windows which are covered up with blackout curtains. 4 doors, one is an exterior door, bathroom door, bedroom door, and laundry room door.

Currently have 2 Sierra 2's for the L/R and ordering another Sierra 2 monday for a center channel along with a rythmik sub. I will eventually go with dual subs but cannot at this current time. its about 90% movies/Games currently and 10% music (which will go up now that I have better speakers)

Rythmic F12 or FVX15. I usually watch movies at around -25db +/- a few db. I was originally going to go with the F12s due to how low they can dig with duals. Just making sure I am not making a mistake. I have never owned a sub outside of cheap theatre in boxes and a $300 sub from best buy I got for around $125 which has issues. So I do not know what good subs even sound like. I just wanna feel my movies.
If you’ve never owned anything but a budget sub, then you are in for a real treat, especially in a room of under 1,200 cu. ft. (we are talking about significant cabin gain here). I am a bit surprised that with the Sierra 2’s joined with a Rythmik sub, you are not more interested in music. They are a terrific match for music, and obviously those two Rythmik subs you selected should be very potent in that room.
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post #44 of 64 Old 07-16-2016, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I've never had headphones, or speakers to really enjoy music.

I'm going to buy more music and hopefully get into it a bit more
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post #45 of 64 Old 07-16-2016, 03:57 PM
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Once the in room -3dB is about 15Hz, is there any real world benefit of going to 10Hz or lower? Just asking...
Depends on the music or movie and if you care for really deep bass, but considering the sub-forum we are in, the answer must be "yes"

The old Telarc 1812 LP (vinyl) cannon shots had fundamentals around 6 Hz. Percussive waves from drums and explosions can reach well below 10 Hz. Chances are most won't miss it, but it's nice to be able to say my system goes below 10 Hz. A lot of folk have found dipping below 20 Hz is helpful to the point that it is pretty common with quality subs.

10 Hz is the new 20 Hz.
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post #46 of 64 Old 07-16-2016, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

My small'ish room helped boost my response to 7 Hz (-3 dB) with subs that have an anechoic response to 14 Hz. My walls are floating, not fixed, but I don't need any more boost down there...

What is the size of your room and how many subs do you have ?



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10 Hz is the new 20 Hz.

Kinda like 18 is the new 15, but is 21 the new 18 ? A year from now..24 would be the new 21
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post #47 of 64 Old 07-16-2016, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Once the in room -3dB is about 15Hz, is there any real world benefit of going to 10Hz or lower? Just asking...
Depends on the music or movie and if you care for really deep bass, but considering the sub-forum we are in, the answer must be "yes"

The old Telarc 1812 LP (vinyl) cannon shots had fundamentals around 6 Hz. Percussive waves from drums and explosions can reach well below 10 Hz. Chances are most won't miss it, but it's nice to be able to say my system goes below 10 Hz. A lot of folk have found dipping below 20 Hz is helpful to the point that it is pretty common with quality subs.

10 Hz is the new 20 Hz.
Point taken, though I do wonder if there is a minimal SPL that one has to listen at for those infrasonic frequencies to be noticed...
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post #48 of 64 Old 07-16-2016, 06:47 PM
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Look up Fletcher-Munson loudness curves and extrapolate. They have to be pretty loud though you can "feel" them at lower levels. It's up to you; I had no plans to dip much below 20 Hz if that, it just worked out that way.

@qguy :
Quote:
What is the size of your room and how many subs do you have ?
About 13'3" W x 17'7" L x 8'6" H (~1980 cubic feet); it is somewhat irregular and a major plenum (duct) drops the ceiling on one side by about a foot. The room is in the basement with a concrete floor; walls and ceiling are floating on Kinetics IsoMax clips.

Four Rythmik F12's strategically placed.
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post #49 of 64 Old 07-18-2016, 02:54 PM
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Look up Fletcher-Munson loudness curves and extrapolate. They have to be pretty loud though you can "feel" them at lower levels. It's up to you; I had no plans to dip much below 20 Hz if that, it just worked out that way.

@qguy :
Quote:
What is the size of your room and how many subs do you have ?
About 13'3" W x 17'7" L x 8'6" H (~1980 cubic feet); it is somewhat irregular and a major plenum (duct) drops the ceiling on one side by about a foot. The room is in the basement with a concrete floor; walls and ceiling are floating on Kinetics IsoMax clips.

Four Rythmik F12's strategically placed.
I think based on those curves it seems that I won't be listening loud enough for sub 20Hz stuff to be felt or heard. Probably not a big deal since I don't get the feeling with a good movie that the deep bass is lacking in the slightest...
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post #50 of 64 Old 07-19-2016, 03:15 PM
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When you say large, high efficiency speakers do you mean something like PA speakers or massive towers? Or do bookshelf and center channel speakers also have the potential to do this?

Just curious.


Also, SVS told me my prime bookshelves/cc can do 105dB peaks in a small room like mine with a 80Hz or higher crossover provided I supply enough clean power, which is around 150W or so, 2m ground plane. And I do sit within 2m of the mains/cc.

However, they did also mention that such levels in my 1150 cubic foot room would be quite unpleasant.

So, does this mean that my speakers can do 105dB peaks without distortion/compression issues provided the room is treated and not so small as to make such levels unpleasant (due to flutter echo, slap ringing, pronounced standing waves, etc)?

Or does it just mean they will do 105dB peaks without falling to pieces?

The reviews I've read indicate these speakers can play very loud without breaking a sweat and when I demoed them at a local store before purchase, I saw a very loud scene in one of the newer Transformers movies at very high levels (maybe -5 or -10) and while the room and SB-1000 sub were reaching and exceeding their limits, the primes were not distorting in any obvious, audible way. And they were running off an entry level Denon AVR costing less than a pair of these $500 bookshelves.
By large, I don't necessarily mean towers. There are high efficiency (large, 8"+ woofer)bookshelf speakers that have 94-99 dB sensitivity that should easily play reference level with very low distortion and low power requirements in most rooms. As you are aware, room size and distance from the speakers plays a large role in the SPL that can be achieved by any given speaker.

If you are only 6 ft from your mains, my guess would be that you should be able to play pretty clean at or near reference.

I've heard an extremely capable system in a highly treated room play music at +10 and it was not uncomfortable. My system sounds harsh above -5.

In your case, since I believe you have REW capability, you could simply run a 105 dB sweep 20-20k Hz(wear ear plugs if you'd like), and see what the distortion levels are. I have yet to do that, but I am reasonably sure that I would have quite a bit of audible distortion if I were to try that. I am 12 ft from my mains with a $200 AVR and a pair of $160/each bookshelf speakers. I would love to build a set of DIYsoundgroup Fusion 8's with 94 dB sensitivity but it's just not in the budget at the moment. I would gain a minimum of 6 dB of clean output without changing AVR's. Much more effective route than adding power imo. If I doubled my amp power, I would only gain 3 dB of output assuming zero compression from my speakers. A speaker upgrade would not only yield 6+ dB of output, but the potential for another 3-6 with an AVR upgrade.
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post #51 of 64 Old 07-20-2016, 06:52 AM
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By large, I don't necessarily mean towers. There are high efficiency (large, 8"+ woofer)bookshelf speakers that have 94-99 dB sensitivity that should easily play reference level with very low distortion and low power requirements in most rooms. As you are aware, room size and distance from the speakers plays a large role in the SPL that can be achieved by any given speaker.

If you are only 6 ft from your mains, my guess would be that you should be able to play pretty clean at or near reference.

I've heard an extremely capable system in a highly treated room play music at +10 and it was not uncomfortable. My system sounds harsh above -5.

In your case, since I believe you have REW capability, you could simply run a 105 dB sweep 20-20k Hz(wear ear plugs if you'd like), and see what the distortion levels are. I have yet to do that, but I am reasonably sure that I would have quite a bit of audible distortion if I were to try that. I am 12 ft from my mains with a $200 AVR and a pair of $160/each bookshelf speakers. I would love to build a set of DIYsoundgroup Fusion 8's with 94 dB sensitivity but it's just not in the budget at the moment. I would gain a minimum of 6 dB of clean output without changing AVR's. Much more effective route than adding power imo. If I doubled my amp power, I would only gain 3 dB of output assuming zero compression from my speakers. A speaker upgrade would not only yield 6+ dB of output, but the potential for another 3-6 with an AVR upgrade.
I don't want to try 105dB sweeps with my current AVR as it is rated to 70WPC (2ch driven, full range, 8 Ohms, minimal distortion) and I don't think it has enough clean power to do 100+dB safely. For all I know it only has 35W or 50W...

(I was mainly talking about max capability because in my small room, I only like to listen at about -30MV.)

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post #52 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 05:53 PM
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Theriddler07sms, Have you decided if the F12 is enough sub yet?
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post #53 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Taking some time with it first before I make a final decision. After running rew and correctly setting it up in audyssey it feels a lot better.
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post #54 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
Taking some time with it first before I make a final decision. After running rew and correctly setting it up in audyssey it feels a lot better.
Glad it got better. It sounds like a lot of people use a MBM to add that extra punch.
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post #55 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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What is mbm?
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post #56 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
Taking some time with it first before I make a final decision. After running rew and correctly setting it up in audyssey it feels a lot better.
It's a great sub, that was the first time I had a chance to hear Rythmik, thanks for the invite! Here is a perfect example of the power of REW:

Red = Before
Green = After



Small sealed room, limited placement options, but found the perfect placement in the front right.


Also, I believe theriddler made a few changes with the help from this forum yesterday before we ran sweeps, I believe part of it was boosting the sub level, as post audyssey defaulted it so low. I brought my db meter to get a good starting point. We left the subs running hot for now.
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Last edited by ndskurfer; 07-21-2016 at 08:59 PM.
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post #57 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
What is mbm?
Midbass Module. It was being discussed on the Rythmic thread. Basically a 12" sub tuned to 45 - 80hz placed right behind the main seat for more chest thumping. The Behringer B1200D is apparently great for this. Placed right behind the seat it gives twice the thump of a FV15HP placed across the room.
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post #58 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I started a thread about current great mbm. Didn't know if diy was the way to go or of there was prebuilt ones that would suffice.
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post #59 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 09:58 PM
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Looked like there was a lot of good info out there on MBMs. I just glanced at some of it today.
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post #60 of 64 Old 07-21-2016, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I might have to take a couple days at work and read up.

The rythmik f12 kicks ass. Watched transformers again today and was in awe. It's finally dialed in and perfect. Have a couple more bass heavy movies to watch tomorrow. Cannot wait to get a second f12 and really shake this place.
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