SVS PB-1000 to Hsu VTF-2 MK5? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 90 Old 11-29-2016, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by slime340 View Post
I will tell you my experience. Because of the natural disaster in Baton Rouge over the summer, I had to replace my speakers including my beloved 15 year old Paradigm PS1200 v2. I had some of the same subs in mind as most of the posters here and also auditioned a GoldenEar Force Field 5. Everything I heard kind of disappointed me when staying under $900 that my Paradigm was. I decided in the end to get the Hsu Research VTF-2 MK5, and I have not been at all disappointed in it's performance. In my room, at least, it has touched 16 Hz as advertised and is more musical than the SVS, which also did not go as deep. Just my opinion, the Hsu should not let you down, and the CD they send with the sub is just icing. Just be careful, the neighbors will complain, at least once.
Thanks for posting your experience Slime! I suspect both are great products and that anyone who owns the PB-1000 will also say they thought it was great. Just looking for a little more final input before I decide. I'm leaning towards the HSU though. No matter what I end up with, I'm sure I'll always wonder if I would have liked the other one better. They seem close enough and would both be a big upgrade over what I have now that I think either would satisfy me. If the cost were further apart, I think the SVS might be a better choice but at $150 difference, it might be worth the slightly better specs on the HSU.

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post #62 of 90 Old 11-29-2016, 01:14 PM
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Check out the Outlaw Ultra X12 as well. It's currently $50 cheaper than the VTF-2 Mk 5 and its specs are nearly identical. It's also nicer aesthetically, IMO.
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post #63 of 90 Old 12-01-2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_Likes_Games View Post
Thanks for posting your experience Slime! I suspect both are great products and that anyone who owns the PB-1000 will also say they thought it was great. Just looking for a little more final input before I decide. I'm leaning towards the HSU though. No matter what I end up with, I'm sure I'll always wonder if I would have liked the other one better. They seem close enough and would both be a big upgrade over what I have now that I think either would satisfy me. If the cost were further apart, I think the SVS might be a better choice but at $150 difference, it might be worth the slightly better specs on the HSU.
One last thing, Audioholics just posted a review of the Hsu, so now you can compare the subs you are interested in since they, for the most part, all have reviews done.
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post #64 of 90 Old 12-01-2016, 05:27 PM
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One last thing, Audioholics just posted a review of the Hsu, so now you can compare the subs you are interested in since they, for the most part, all have reviews done.
Thanks man - I'm glad you told me about this. Just read the review and learned a few things! The VTF-2 sounds like a great choice. I think I'm going to go with it even though the cost is more than the PB-1000. I suspect I would really enjoy the SVS also, but since I won't be optimizing position of the sub, and my room is medium/large, it may be worth it to spend the extra to get the (slightly?) better performance.

That reviewer did a good job of explaining the technical plots. (I work in a technical job, so I understand some of that already, but it was well written.)
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post #65 of 90 Old 12-01-2016, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark_Likes_Games View Post
Thanks man - I'm glad you told me about this. Just read the review and learned a few things! The VTF-2 sounds like a great choice. I think I'm going to go with it even though the cost is more than the PB-1000. I suspect I would really enjoy the SVS also, but since I won't be optimizing position of the sub, and my room is medium/large, it may be worth it to spend the extra to get the (slightly?) better performance.

That reviewer did a good job of explaining the technical plots. (I work in a technical job, so I understand some of that already, but it was well written.)
It looks like it should be quite a bit more output than the pb-1000 based on the review and numbers posted. In fact for mid bass they said it bested the next series up in the SVS line, the pc/pb-2000.

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post #66 of 90 Old 12-02-2016, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
It looks like it should be quite a bit more output than the pb-1000 based on the review and numbers posted. In fact for mid bass they said it bested the next series up in the SVS line, the pc/pb-2000.
The PB-2000 and VTF-2 MK5 were reviewed by different guys and possibly different equipment, so you can't take their numbers as 100% accurate when comparing the two. It does look, however, that the VTF-2 would have a higher output capability 31Hz and up in 2 port mode. However, 2 port mode has the output drop very steeply below 20Hz. It does look like a good performing sub, noted as being very close to the Outlaw LFM-1 EX. I think for a small to lower end medium sized room, the VTF-2.5 would a good choice for the money.
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post #67 of 90 Old 12-03-2016, 02:30 AM
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Also know that Larson that did the HSU review was formerly shadyj on this forum and was a rabid HSU fan. I trust the objectivity of that review about as much as if HSU had written it themselves.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
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post #68 of 90 Old 12-03-2016, 06:02 AM
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I don't see why that should be a problem. I would think most people who have spent some time with Hsu subs would at least approach rabid fan status when taking both price and performance into account. They are very deserving of the praise they get in my experience. There are plenty of objective measurements in his review, and I'm sure you're not accusing anyone of doctoring the results...

I would still like to see a direct head-to-head between the VTF-2 and the X12, though. Comparing different data sets and reviewers isn't exactly ideal. Of course that point may be moot at present, since the X12 is back to its normal price, which makes the Hsu a good bit cheaper.
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post #69 of 90 Old 12-03-2016, 06:34 AM
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I don't see why that should be a problem. I would think most people who have spent some time with Hsu subs would at least approach rabid fan status when taking both price and performance into account. They are very deserving of the praise they get in my experience. There are plenty of objective measurements in his review, and I'm sure you're not accusing anyone of doctoring the results...
There are lots and lots of fans of sub brands on this forum...and then there was shadyj. If you followed him extensively on AVS and read several hundred of his posts in the subwoofer forum, you'd know what I was talking about.

On the other hand, many other subwoofer reviews on Audioholics are done by people who are WAY more objective.

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post #70 of 90 Old 12-03-2016, 07:07 AM
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post #71 of 90 Old 12-04-2016, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
Also know that Larson that did the HSU review was formerly shadyj on this forum and was a rabid HSU fan. I trust the objectivity of that review about as much as if HSU had written it themselves.
He also did the review of the SVS PC-2000, so methodology and equipment should be the same. As far as objectivity goes, numbers don't lie, the interpretation does. The lke numbers of both subs bear out what the reviewer says about them.
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post #72 of 90 Old 12-04-2016, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by slime340 View Post
As far as objectivity goes, numbers don't lie, the interpretation does.
Hmmm...logic by cliche? LOL

Numbers aren't always accurate if the equipment is not measured consistently the same.

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post #73 of 90 Old 12-05-2016, 07:27 PM
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Hmmm...logic by cliche? LOL

Numbers aren't always accurate if the equipment is not measured consistently the same.
Yeah, OK, you would have to assume, since the benefit of the doubt would be given to say Brett Butterworth that the reviewer's equipment and methodology is the same between reviews, simply stating the numbers don't lie, is valid. Just because the reviewer has a rep for being biased, so does every reviewer. They all have their favorite manufacturers. It does not mean they cannot be objective in their review of every piece of equipment that crosses his path. Same equipment, same reviewer and methods should produce honest numbers.
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post #74 of 90 Old 12-05-2016, 07:35 PM
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Just because the reviewer has a rep for being biased, so does every reviewer.
There's biased and there's BIASED. Follow my previous advice in this thread. Read a few hundred of shadyj's posts and get back to me.

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post #75 of 90 Old 12-06-2016, 12:19 PM
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Well...I decided to go with the VTF-2 Mk5 over the PB-1000. My main objections were the bigger size and higher cost, but I can deal with both of those... I do like the appearance of the SVS and some of it's features (higher crossover limit and line outs) but in the end I think the HSU is just a bit more powerful and I only want to do this upgrade once - no iterations.

So, I just placed the order! I'm expecting a HUGE improvement over the Dayton (which isn't "bad"). The HSU is literally 5X the cost I paid for the Dayton-1200... so, I really hope it doesn't disappoint. Bring the BOOM.
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post #76 of 90 Old 12-06-2016, 12:28 PM
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So far I am thinking I am going to go with dual VTF-2 Mk5's myself.
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post #77 of 90 Old 12-06-2016, 01:24 PM
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Well...I decided to go with the VTF-2 Mk5 over the PB-1000. My main objections were the bigger size and higher cost, but I can deal with both of those... I do like the appearance of the SVS and some of it's features (higher crossover limit and line outs) but in the end I think the HSU is just a bit more powerful and I only want to do this upgrade once - no iterations.

So, I just placed the order! I'm expecting a HUGE improvement over the Dayton (which isn't "bad"). The HSU is literally 5X the cost I paid for the Dayton-1200... so, I really hope it doesn't disappoint. Bring the BOOM.
I'm a fan of SVS, but I would also have gone with the VTF2.5 over the PB-1000. I think you'll be pleased.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12 (x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000 (x2). Speakers>JBL 270/235c/230/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Infinity P363/163. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith Cinema 5 AMT bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31. Sennheiser HD58X, HD4.50, PC37X. HyperX Cloud PS4 HS. Plantronics RIG500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,RK7,PK5. UE Boom3.
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post #78 of 90 Old 12-08-2016, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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As the OP who was swayed to get the SVS PC-2000 I just wanted to give an update and thanks for the advice. It really has been very enjoyable. I know for my 3100ft3 room that has a fixed 6ft opening to our foyer and hence the rest of the house many would opt for much more output/multiple subs but it still seems to work quite well for my needs. I've done a lot of testing with short clips of movies but hadn't really sat down and watched any good bass movies all the way through yet. I watched Star Trek (2009) all the way through last night with the Dolby TrueHD audio track. First off I hadn't watched it in a while but JJ really did a great job with that movie. With my AVR sub trim running 5db hot (-7 bumped to -2) and only relatively low listening volumes the LFE were a lot of fun. I really never knew all that low frequency audio and infrasonic sound was there since my prior "sub" was a dinky 8" HTIB sub that probably didn't do anything. There was so much tactile/visceral bass to be felt. I can't imagine what it's like having monster dual PB16s or something else equivalent. One day when the kids are older I plan make a dedicated HT room in the basement with higher end stuff but for now our living room setup is very enjoyable. I'm not sure what it is about that visceral bass but it really is such an enjoyable and addictive sensation.
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post #79 of 90 Old 12-09-2016, 12:43 PM
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I'm a fan of SVS, but I would also have gone with the VTF2.5 over the PB-1000. I think you'll be pleased.
Well Mix... this is going to be interesting... I've got the HSU in now and am starting to test it out... Sounds good so far, but to make sure it was worth it, I put the Dayton back in for comparison...

For what I've done so far, I simply picked about 70% volume on the HSU and put it in (one port plugged). I didn't re-run YPAO yet or change any AVR settings. Then I played some CDs. I certainly liked the results but I've never before used or even heard a "good" subwoofer. My main L/R speakers are already 12" on the woofers (and because of that, I discounted the budget Dayton and didn't use it for music - I used outboard EQ instead to boost bass for music).

Anyway, I put the Dayton back in and ... sheesh ... it still sounds pretty good listening to the same CDs... I thought there would and should be a HUGE difference. I need to test more and find a way to properly A-B them. I have not tried movie content yet.

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post #80 of 90 Old 12-09-2016, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_Likes_Games View Post
Well Mix... this is going to be interesting... I've got the HSU in now and am starting to test it out... Sounds good so far, but to make sure it was worth it, I put the Dayton back in for comparison...

For what I've done so far, I simply picked about 70% volume on the HSU and put it in (one port plugged). I didn't re-run YPAO yet or change any AVR settings. Then I played some CDs. I certainly liked the results but I've never before used or even heard a "good" subwoofer. My main L/R speakers are already 12" on the woofers (and because of that, I discounted the budget Dayton and didn't use it for music - I used outboard EQ instead to boost bass for music).

Anyway, I put the Dayton back in and ... sheesh ... it still sounds pretty good listening to the same CDs... I thought there would and should be a HUGE difference. I need to test more and find a way to properly A-B them. I have not tried movie content yet.
It is my understanding that when comparing a "good" subwoofer to a lesser counterpart, the most noticeable difference comes from the additional headroom that a good, low frequency capable subwoofer can achieve. It has been said that you won't notice much of a difference in the 30-40hz midbass range. I could be wrong though.
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post #81 of 90 Old 12-09-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_Likes_Games View Post
Well Mix... this is going to be interesting... I've got the HSU in now and am starting to test it out... Sounds good so far, but to make sure it was worth it, I put the Dayton back in for comparison...

For what I've done so far, I simply picked about 70% volume on the HSU and put it in (one port plugged). I didn't re-run YPAO yet or change any AVR settings. Then I played some CDs. I certainly liked the results but I've never before used or even heard a "good" subwoofer. My main L/R speakers are already 12" on the woofers (and because of that, I discounted the budget Dayton and didn't use it for music - I used outboard EQ instead to boost bass for music).

Anyway, I put the Dayton back in and ... sheesh ... it still sounds pretty good listening to the same CDs... I thought there would and should be a HUGE difference. I need to test more and find a way to properly A-B them. I have not tried movie content yet.
Be sure to run YPAO for each sub and get the settings correct before doing any critical listening. Also be sure and do a sub crawl to find the best spot for the sub prior to any testing if you haven't already. Your ears are accustomed to the exaggerated, boomy mid-bass that the Dayton sub puts out. Turn it up to louder levels and you'll also get a lot of distortion mixed in. It's not uncommon for people coming from a budget sub to a quality sub to be underwhelmed at first.

A budget sub usually has a mid-bass hump in the frequency response, usually in the 50-70Hz range. This makes the sub sound loud, but what you are hearing isn't accurate or precise. A quality sub will be much more accurate and linear. What you hear at 60Hz will be very close to the same dB level as say 30Hz.

I suggest you take this weekend to properly set up the HSU and experiment with the different port modes and Q-control settings. Listen to a variety of music and movies and let your ears adjust to accurate bass, rather than the exaggerated bass you've been hearing from the Dayton. A good sub set up properly should blend right in with the other speakers so that the bass isn't the elephant in the room, but rather a seamless extension of the speakers.
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post #82 of 90 Old 12-09-2016, 02:09 PM
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Totally agreed. I find going to a truly good subwoofer from a typical "budget" sub is sort of like going from watching an HDTV in Dynamic Mode to one that's been professionally calibrated. It's not as in your face and as obviously loud per se - and that can seem disappointing at first - but give it a chance and you'll start hearing (and feeling) things that you never have before. Once you get accustomed to this, try that budget sub again and it will likely sound like a noisy, muddy mess.

You've also got a lot of flexibility with that Hsu, so after you finalize placement and run your EQ software, try out the different port configurations/Q control until you land on something that sounds best to you.

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post #83 of 90 Old 12-09-2016, 02:28 PM
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Be sure to run YPAO for each sub and get the settings correct before doing any critical listening. Also be sure and do a sub crawl to find the best spot for the sub prior to any testing if you haven't already...

I suggest you take this weekend to properly set up the HSU and experiment with the different port modes and Q-control settings. Listen to a variety of music and movies and let your ears adjust to accurate bass, rather than the exaggerated bass you've been hearing from the Dayton. A good sub set up properly should blend right in with the other speakers so that the bass isn't the elephant in the room, but rather a seamless extension of the speakers.
Thanks Mix and others. Good comments - I like knowing information like this.

I'm probably not going to optimize the position with a crawl. I put it in the same place as the Dayton and carefully walked around checking for nulls. I especially checked my main listening/viewing seat. That was OK so I think I'm leaving that as the position.
However, I found something interesting. At the main listening position, I noticed that when I stood up or sat down the bass response changed a LOT. It INCREASED when I stood up and sounded noticeably weaker when seated. On a whim I changed the phase switch to 180 and it seemed to equalize it or even reverse it slightly between sitting and standing at the MLP. (I know what phase is and it doesn't totally make sense that this fixed it, but I think it was a real change.)

Anyway, I will take the time to do a proper evaluation. That's part of the fun of an upgrade, as you guys all know. It IS a bit of a worry though if I spent $500 MORE without a significant improvement... So, I will take the comments under advice and proceed! Thanks.

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post #84 of 90 Old 01-24-2017, 01:35 PM
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The PC-2000 is very tempting. I would have to see if the larger 16.6" footprint could work. I'm restricted to to 15" width at least with a standard box sub due to space between wall and media unit plus speaker stand that is already there but perhaps the cylinder shape would help make it fit if I pull speaker stand forward a bit and shift media unit slightly (it's already a little off center though). I mostly fear that the enormous height of the PC-2000 will have my wife saying no way. Will take a look at space and see what she thinks.
Did you ever swap subs? Do you still have the SVS PB-1000?
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post #85 of 90 Old 01-24-2017, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you ever swap subs? Do you still have the SVS PB-1000?
Got the PC-2000 which I very much enjoy. See my post above on 12-8-2016.

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post #86 of 90 Old 01-25-2017, 08:40 AM
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Got the PC-2000 which I very much enjoy. See my post above on 12-8-2016.
Oh I see.. nice! I just posted a new thread trying to decide on new subs.
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post #87 of 90 Old 05-29-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
Got the PC-2000 which I very much enjoy. See my post above on 12-8-2016.
Hey Confino, are you still around. I know this is a very, very old thread, but just in case you are still available I have a question. Apparently, going by your signature, you now have dual PC-4000s. I just purchased a PB-1000. i kind of expected more coming from a bargain Acoustech BIC PL-200. I'm thinking about trading up to the PC-2000. Was there a significant improvement going from the PB-1000 to the PC-2000? Thanks
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post #88 of 90 Old 05-29-2018, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Confino, are you still around. I know this is a very, very old thread, but just in case you are still available I have a question. Apparently, going by your signature, you now have dual PC-4000s. I just purchased a PB-1000. i kind of expected more coming from a bargain Acoustech BIC PL-200. I'm thinking about trading up to the PC-2000. Was there a significant improvement going from the PB-1000 to the PC-2000? Thanks
I'm still here. Addicted to this forum. Yes once I discovered good bass I rapidly moved up the SVS line over the last year and a half taking advantage of the trade up policy. Started with PB-1000, then PC-2000, then PC12+, then dual PC12+, then dual PC-4000. The dual PC12+ were perfectly adequate but my one year was just about up so jumped to the PC-4000 before I lost my chance. In my space (~3200 CF) and listening levels I actually think the jump from the PB-1000 to the PC-2000 was the most significant. The rest was incremental. Bass is also more accurate as you go up the line. Going dual definitely gave more headroom but mostly gave a more even frequency response as was the intention. The PC-2000 had significantly more output and low end extension that was quite obvious. Your total room volume and listening levels will play a major role as well. What size is your room and how loud do you listen? Movie/Music split? Another factor is a sub like the BIC will have a mid bass peak and not the desired more accurate flat response. This can be perceived initially as less than stellar performance of a better sub like the PB-1000 until you adjust to the more accurate response.

LG OLED65C7P (Chad B Calibrated) | Denon X4300H | Tivo Roamio OTA | Nvidia Shield | ATV 4K | Oppo UDP-203 | Plex server
5.2.4 | Front Klipsch RP-160M x2 | Center Klipsch RP-450C | Surrounds Klipsch RP-150M x2 | Atmos Klipsch RP-140SA x 4 | Subs SVS PC-4000 x 2
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post #89 of 90 Old 05-29-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
I'm still here. Addicted to this forum. Yes once I discovered good bass I rapidly moved up the SVS line over the last year and a half taking advantage of the trade up policy. Started with PB-1000, then PC-2000, then PC12+, then dual PC12+, then dual PC-4000. The dual PC12+ were perfectly adequate but my one year was just about up so jumped to the PC-4000 before I lost my chance. In my space (~3200 CF) and listening levels I actually think the jump from the PB-1000 to the PC-2000 was the most significant. The rest was incremental. Bass is also more accurate as you go up the line. Going dual definitely gave more headroom but mostly gave a more even frequency response as was the intention. The PC-2000 had significantly more output and low end extension that was quite obvious. Your total room volume and listening levels will play a major role as well. What size is your room and how loud do you listen? Movie/Music split? Another factor is a sub like the BIC will have a mid bass peak and not the desired more accurate flat response. This can be perceived initially as less than stellar performance of a better sub like the PB-1000 until you adjust to the more accurate response.
How does the SVS trade up policy work?
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post #90 of 90 Old 05-29-2018, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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How does the SVS trade up policy work?
From SVS:

"1-YEAR TRADE-UP POLICY
You may trade in any product purchased from SVS within 1 year of your purchase, and receive full credit toward the purchase of a more expensive like product. We ask that the product be in like new condition with the original box and packaging. We ask our customers to pay any freight charges associated with the return and new purchase."

You notify them you want to do a trade up. You purchase the new sub as usual and they should also give you a 5% return customer discount code. If you like it you notify them you are ready to send back the prior sub and they arrange shipping. When received they credit you the full cost minus all the shipping costs of BOTH subs which varies depending on the sub size/weight. For me the shipping cost of the PC12+ and return PC-2000 was $160. The shipping cost of the dual PC-4000 and dual PC12+ return was $360. I also live in OH so that could make costs less than for others.

LG OLED65C7P (Chad B Calibrated) | Denon X4300H | Tivo Roamio OTA | Nvidia Shield | ATV 4K | Oppo UDP-203 | Plex server
5.2.4 | Front Klipsch RP-160M x2 | Center Klipsch RP-450C | Surrounds Klipsch RP-150M x2 | Atmos Klipsch RP-140SA x 4 | Subs SVS PC-4000 x 2
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