Klipsch R-12SW - I'm not "feeling" much of the sound :( - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 12:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Unhappy Klipsch R-12SW - I'm not "feeling" much of the sound :(

I just bought this sub because according to all the reviews, it is "shaking everyone's house, even when it's not turned up all the way." I also bought this receiver to go along with it: Denon 700w AVR-S510BT. It does sound much better than my previous little monoprice sub and doesn't clip like it did, but I was expecting to "feel" the bass a lot more according to the many reviews i've read even when I turn the volume on the sub all the way up. I can feel it slightly, but no where near what I was hoping/expecting for this kind of price.

I'm located in a 20x20 room, I first ran the auto setup, then after that I started fiddling around with any setting I could to hopefully up the sub volume. I set all the speakers to small, and turned up the SW channel to +12db.

Does anyone have any ideas to what i'm missing to get that nice sub feel? Or were my expectation too high in the first place? Sorry for the noob question, but i've been playing with settings for the past 2 days nonstop and don't know where else to look
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post #2 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 12:22 AM
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Yep, expectations too high I'm afraid. 3,200 estimated cubic feet of space excluding any other open spaces it extends to calls for a subwoofer rated for a large room which this subwoofer isn't. Probably need to get in the $500 plus range to get a sub capable of what your looking for. Emp-tek I-12, Rythmik LVX12 , SVS PB-2000 etc... At a minimum.

Klipsch R12SW Product Highlights:

bass-reflex (ported) enclosure200-watt RMS (400-watts peak) amplifier12" high-excursion IMG (Injection Molded Graphite) front-firing wooferfrequency response 29-120 Hz (±3dB)
14"W x 16-1/2"H x 19-1/4"Dweight: 33 lbs.

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post #3 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, expectations too high I'm afraid. 3,200 estimated cubic feet of space excluding any other open spaces it extends to calls for a subwoofer rated for a large room which this subwoofer isn't. Probably need to get in the $500 plus range to get a sub capable of what your looking for. Emp-tek I-12, Rythmik LVX12 , SVS PB-2000 etc... At a minimum.

Klipsch R12SW Product Highlights:

bass-reflex (ported) enclosure200-watt RMS (400-watts peak) amplifier12" high-excursion IMG (Injection Molded Graphite) front-firing wooferfrequency response 29-120 Hz (±3dB)
14"W x 16-1/2"H x 19-1/4"Dweight: 33 lbs.
Darn thats a shame. I blame the reviewers for messing with my expectations! Hearing how whole houses were shaking, I thought I could at least get my one room moving a bit :P

I'll probably just live with this sub for now since I already spent more than I was planning to for a new sub, but I am curious (for the future) what would I be looking for when comparing subs to get that chest pounding? For example, the Emp-tek I-12 costs relatively the same price, and has less watts than the klipsh
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post #4 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 01:01 AM
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What were the results of the sub level after you ran the auto setup mic? You want to set the sub gain/volume at around noon to 1 o'clock on the dial. Ideally you want the auto setup to then set your sub to somewhere in the -5 to -10 range. Then if it's still not potent enough for you, start increasing the level fro the receiver, not the sub. Ideally you don't want to go into the "+" range, certainly not +12. Do you have the sub located in a prime spot relative to your seating location (sub crawl)? Be sure and check that your speakers are set to small and set the low pass knob on the amp all the way to the right. Use the receiver to set the crossover, with 80Hz being a popular choice. Higher if you have smaller, satellite speakers.

If you have 7'5" ceilings, you are looking at about 3000 ft^3. That's not counting any adjoining rooms you may have. That's a bit of a chore for this sub to tackle and the sub really doesn't offer much below 30Hz anyway. I have the rough equivalent Jamo J-12, but I'm running it in a much smaller 14'x16' bedroom. For the $150 I paid for it I'm happy with it. Now compared to the Jamo J-112, it's no match. How much did you pay for the R-12SW? Right now you can get the J-112 for $250.
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post #5 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 01:28 AM
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Darn thats a shame. I blame the reviewers for messing with my expectations! Hearing how whole houses were shaking, I thought I could at least get my one room moving a bit :P
Yeah, reviewers are basing their experiences in their rooms which were probably smaller and sealed . Best to use independent sites that do specific testing like Data-bass and Audioholics.

Quote:
I'll probably just live with this sub for now since I already spent more than I was planning to for a new sub, but I am curious (for the future) what would I be looking for when comparing subs to get that chest pounding? For example, the Emp-tek I-12 costs relatively the same price, and has less watts than the klipsh
You spent $499 or so on that Klipsch sub? Can you return it? Wattage ratings on a subwoofer are about as good as showing or comparing subwoofer capabilities as counting the number of windows on an Airbus are to how high the plane can fly. The Emp-tek is a larger sub in volume and weight and has a better driver plus more ports. It's frequency response gets down to 22hz anechoic. It smokes your current Klipsch pretty much. Physics dictates size with low frequency reproduction. You need large enclosures ( ported preferably) and larger diameter efficient drivers with good excursion.

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post #6 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 01:33 AM
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Did you do the "sub crawl technique" for placing your sub in the best spot? That might help or you could place it near field( within 3 feet of your main listening position.)

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post #7 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 01:50 AM - Thread Starter
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What were the results of the sub level after you ran the auto setup mic? You want to set the sub gain/volume at around noon to 1 o'clock on the dial. Ideally you want the auto setup to then set your sub to somewhere in the -5 to -10 range. Then if it's still not potent enough for you, start increasing the level fro the receiver, not the sub. Ideally you don't want to go into the "+" range, certainly not +12. Do you have the sub located in a prime spot relative to your seating location (sub crawl)? Be sure and check that your speakers are set to small and set the low pass knob on the amp all the way to the right. Use the receiver to set the crossover, with 80Hz being a popular choice. Higher if you have smaller, satellite speakers.

If you have 7'5" ceilings, you are looking at about 3000 ft^3. That's not counting any adjoining rooms you may have. That's a bit of a chore for this sub to tackle and the sub really doesn't offer much below 30Hz anyway. I have the rough equivalent Jamo J-12, but I'm running it in a much smaller 14'x16' bedroom. For the $150 I paid for it I'm happy with it. Now compared to the Jamo J-112, it's no match. How much did you pay for the R-12SW? Right now you can get the J-112 for $250.
Yes, I first ran the setup with the gain dialed to 12 o clock. I believe the sub was around -3 or so, how come I wouldn't want it in the + though? My first instinct is that louder is better. After the auto setup was complete, I turned the gain up all the way on the sub itself. I haven't done a sub crawl, actually going to go check out a video right now how to do that as i've seen it mentioned in a few places. Speakers are set to small, however when I turn the lowpass filter all the way clockwise on the sub, it begins to sound a bit murky.

No adjoining rooms, this is a converted garage separate from the house. I paid $450 for the J-112
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post #8 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 01:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I first ran the setup with the gain dialed to 12 o clock. I believe the sub was around -3 or so, how come I wouldn't want it in the + though? My first instinct is that louder is better. After the auto setup was complete, I turned the gain up all the way on the sub itself. I haven't done a sub crawl, actually going to go check out a video right now how to do that as i've seen it mentioned in a few places. Speakers are set to small, however when I turn the lowpass filter all the way clockwise on the sub, it begins to sound a bit murky.

No adjoining rooms, this is a converted garage separate from the house. I paid $450 for the J-112
edit: meant I paid $450 for the R-12SW. It's late hah. Also, that J-112 is listed for $850 on amazon
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post #9 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 02:30 AM
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Spec check

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Originally Posted by zonfar View Post
Darn thats a shame. I blame the reviewers for messing with my expectations! Hearing how whole houses were shaking, I thought I could at least get my one room moving a bit :P

I'll probably just live with this sub for now since I already spent more than I was planning to for a new sub, but I am curious (for the future) what would I be looking for when comparing subs to get that chest pounding? For example, the Emp-tek I-12 costs relatively the same price, and has less watts than the klipsh

The amp of the I-12 is rated at 350 W sustained, and the amp of the R-12SW is rated at only 200 W sustained.

Sources:

http://emptek.com/i12.php

http://images.klipsch.com/R-12SW_-_Spec_Sheet_635424116723382000.pdf (pdf document, ~231 kB)
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post #10 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 02:34 AM
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edit: meant I paid $450 for the R-12SW. It's late hah. Also, that J-112 is listed for $850 on amazon

Doing the sub crawl is step one, so you need to go back and do step one before anything else. Putting any sub in a poor spot relative to your seating is going to net you poor results. Hate to be blunt, but you got royally screwed paying $450 for the R12SW. I would return it if at all possible. The J-112 is available from a high volume seller on ebay for $250. Only caveat being it's only available in dark apple and white finishes for that price. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jamo-J-112-D...8AAOSw4shYB5mk

As far as the RBH I-12 goes, look for the I-12 to be available again in their b-stock/clearance section soon for $404, shipped. Their last shipment they received sustained some damage, so they are sorting out what is sellable or not.
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post #11 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, reviewers are basing their experiences in their rooms which were probably smaller and sealed . Best to use independent sites that do specific testing like Data-bass and Audioholics.



You spent $499 or so on that Klipsch sub? Can you return it? Wattage ratings on a subwoofer are about as good as showing or comparing subwoofer capabilities as counting the number of windows on an Airbus are to how high the plane can fly. The Emp-tek is a larger sub in volume and weight and has a better driver plus more ports. It's frequency response gets down to 22hz anechoic. It smokes your current Klipsch pretty much. Physics dictates size with low frequency reproduction. You need large enclosures ( ported preferably) and larger diameter efficient drivers with good excursion.
Awesome, thanks. I assumed it was all about the watts, but now I know better!

Quote:
You spent $499 or so on that Klipsch sub? Can you return it? Wattage ratings on a subwoofer are about as good as showing or comparing subwoofer capabilities as counting the number of windows on an Airbus are to how high the plane can fly. The Emp-tek is a larger sub in volume and weight and has a better driver plus more ports. It's frequency response gets down to 22hz anechoic. It smokes your current Klipsch pretty much. Physics dictates size with low frequency reproduction. You need large enclosures ( ported preferably) and larger diameter efficient drivers with good excursion.
This right here has convinced me to try to send back the klipsh. Hopefully amazon has a good return policy for such things.

Quote:
Doing the sub crawl is step one, so you need to go back and do step one before anything else. Putting any sub in a poor spot relative to your seating is going to net you poor results. Hate to be blunt, but you got royally screwed paying $450 for the R12SW. I would return it if at all possible. The J-112 is available from a high volume seller on ebay for $250. Only caveat being it's only available in dark apple and white finishes for that price.

As far as the RBH I-12 goes, look for the I-12 to be available again in their b-stock/clearance section soon for $404, shipped. Their last shipment they received sustained some damage, so they are sorting out what is sellable or not.
How much better is the I-12 vs the Jamo-J-112-D ? Typically I judge products initially based on price, but that obviously didn't work for the klipsh, or the Jamo which is listed for $850 at amazon.
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post #12 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by zonfar View Post
I just bought this sub because according to all the reviews, it is "shaking everyone's house, even when it's not turned up all the way." I also bought this receiver to go along with it: Denon 700w AVR-S510BT. It does sound much better than my previous little monoprice sub and doesn't clip like it did, but I was expecting to "feel" the bass a lot more according to the many reviews i've read even when I turn the volume on the sub all the way up. I can feel it slightly, but no where near what I was hoping/expecting for this kind of price.

I'm located in a 20x20 room, I first ran the auto setup, then after that I started fiddling around with any setting I could to hopefully up the sub volume. I set all the speakers to small, and turned up the SW channel to +12db.

Does anyone have any ideas to what i'm missing to get that nice sub feel? Or were my expectation too high in the first place? Sorry for the noob question, but i've been playing with settings for the past 2 days nonstop and don't know where else to look

To help supplement the upper and middle bass, you might want to set the satellites to "large".

And corner-loading the sub can help boost its output, albeit with a potential increase of distortion/boominess.

Also: delaying and/or attenuating the output of the rear/surround satellites, if present, may help to boost the perceived bass output.

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Last edited by Dom Di Stroia; 11-22-2016 at 04:28 AM.
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post #13 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 08:41 AM
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Yes, I first ran the setup with the gain dialed to 12 o clock. I believe the sub was around -3 or so, how come I wouldn't want it in the + though?
The -3 sub level offset is fine. I'd raise the sub's gain knob a bit and rerun your room corrections first mic position. I like an offset around -6 /-8 then I raise it from within the receiver's manual speaker level settings 4 to 6dB but staying below 0 dB to avoid clipping the sub amp. That's running the subwoofer several dB's above reference or a bit "hot" and leaves the sub's physical gain knob alone. Any corrections from then on can be done from the receiver to maintain a baseline you can easily return to reference with in the receiver( the original -offset.)

Quote:
My first instinct is that louder is better. After the auto setup was complete, I turned the gain up all the way on the sub itself.
Louder is better based on how we perceive sound based on the equal loudness curve which prefers a bit higher level with low frequencies but it should be balanced with the other speakers so that you're not 13dB or more above reference on your subwoofer. That's a space and power issue with your current setup I believe.

Quote:
I haven't done a sub crawl, actually going to go check out a video right now how to do that as i've seen it mentioned in a few places. Speakers are set to small, however when I turn the lowpass filter all the way clockwise on the sub, it begins to sound a bit murky.
The " sub crawl" could help but the room is still the room and the sub's low pass filter should be set all the way over to it's highest setting so that it doesn't interfere with the receivers bass mgmt which sets its own crossover for the sub( usually 80hz and 120 Hz for the LFE.) It shouldn't make the sub sound anything with bass mgmt. turned over to the receiver.

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No adjoining rooms, this is a converted garage separate from the house. I paid $450 for the J-112
Good, then it's sealed. That's a help acoustically speaking. I'd return it if you can. Better price/performance out there in Internet Direct subwoofers like Emp-tek, Rythmik, HSU, SVS etc..
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post #14 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 09:06 AM
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How much better is the I-12 vs the Jamo-J-112-D ? Typically I judge products initially based on price, but that obviously didn't work for the klipsh, or the Jamo which is listed for $850 at amazon.
Their specs are definitely closer and Klipsch and Jamo are owned by the same company so there's part sharing there. I'd still give the edge to the Emp-tek I-12 but I would ask @MIX_MASTER_ICE 's opinion because he actually owns the Emp I-12 and another model of the Jamo sub. A b stock Emp-tek I-12 would be a great deal but b stock items aren't returnable except for defects under warranty but I own a set of their b stock bookshelf speakers and they make great performing products for the money. The thing is I'd get the best performing sub you can and when funds recover get a second one. I have 2 50 plus pound ported subwoofers in a space 1/3rd your rooms size and I still want more.😊

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Does anyone have any ideas to what i'm missing to get that nice sub feel?
A second sub. A single 12 inch sub isn't going to pressurize a room as large as yours, no matter what the advertising says. A true bass nut would have two eighteens...at least.
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post #16 of 48 Old 11-20-2016, 01:41 PM
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A second sub. A single 12 inch sub isn't going to pressurize a room as large as yours, no matter what the advertising says. A true bass nut would have two eighteens...at least.
Grabbing my measuring tape as we speak.....

By the way your personal website is very informative. Thank you for providing the information/posts. I enjoy reading them immensely.👍

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post #17 of 48 Old 11-21-2016, 11:53 AM
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......I'm located in a 20x20 room......
A perfectly square room will wreak havoc on the bass response from a single sub, especially if you are sitting in the middle of the room (at the 10' mark). Is your MLP in the center of your room?
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I'd highly suggest ditching the 12" sub idea.. 12" subs won't give you what you are looking for when compared to say, a HSU VTF15H MK2, which I had.. in a room comparable in size that opened up to the kitchen, foyer, hallway and stairs. I could still "feel" the bass.. and even in that open space I still managed to hit 107db's ... Or go the DIY route and run some 18's!!! That's what I just upgraded to from the HSU.
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post #19 of 48 Old 11-21-2016, 02:00 PM
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best buy is selling your klipsch 12" for $225 on black friday.
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post #20 of 48 Old 11-21-2016, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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best buy is selling your klipsch 12" for $225 on black friday.
Ouch that hurts lol. That puts it around the price range of the J-112. Wonder if I should try to just send back my current klipsch and get that bestbuy deal, or if the J-112 would still be better. Hard to tell with mixed feedback here telling me 12" isn't going to pressurize my room at all no matter what.

Where did you see that BF deal btw? I've looked but couldn't find anything

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post #21 of 48 Old 11-21-2016, 06:07 PM
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Ouch that hurts lol. That puts it around the price range of the J-112. Wonder if I should try to just send back my current klipsch and get that bestbuy deal, or if the J-112 would still be better. Hard to tell with mixed feedback here telling me 12" isn't going to pressurize my room at all no matter what.
Oh boy, lots of confusion going on. The Best Buy one that will be on sale is the R-12sw for $225, not the R-112sw. That's really not that great of a deal. The J-112 is equivalent to the R-112sw, so it would be a better sub than the R-12sw. Just think three numbers is better than two.
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post #22 of 48 Old 11-21-2016, 06:15 PM
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Awesome, thanks. I assumed it was all about the watts, but now I know better!



This right here has convinced me to try to send back the klipsh. Hopefully amazon has a good return policy for such things.



How much better is the I-12 vs the Jamo-J-112-D ? Typically I judge products initially based on price, but that obviously didn't work for the klipsh, or the Jamo which is listed for $850 at amazon.
Judging by price, the Jamo retail of $850 would make it nearly twice as good as the $500 RBH. Not the case. The RBH is actually quite a bit better. Extension to 20Hz or better, more accurate and linear sound. The Jamo is way overpriced at $850, but at $250 it becomes a top sub in the budget range ($300 or less).
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post #23 of 48 Old 11-21-2016, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh boy, lots of confusion going on. The Best Buy one that will be on sale is the R-12sw for $225, not the R-112sw. That's really not that great of a deal. The J-112 is equivalent to the R-112sw, so it would be a better sub than the R-12sw. Just think three numbers is better than two.
Wow, so even at that bf price, it seems it's still not a great deal when comparing to the J-112

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Judging by price, the Jamo retail of $850 would make it nearly twice as good as the $500 RBH. Not the case. The RBH is actually quite a bit better. Extension to 20Hz or better, more accurate and linear sound. The Jamo is way overpriced at $850, but at $250 it becomes a top sub in the budget range ($300 or less).
When comparing price to quality, how would you say the $250 is compared to the $500 RBH? I don't expect it to be twice as big just because it's double the price, however I wouldn't want to pay double the price for a small upgrade either. In other words, is it worth double the price for the RBH?

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post #24 of 48 Old 11-22-2016, 12:08 AM
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Probably a combination of bad placement and room being too large for the sub. Put a test tone on and walk around the room to see if you can get the response you're looking for. If not, either get another sub and place it near field, or better yet return it and Get a couple ported 15's or 18's if you can swing it. Anything from SVS, PSA, Rythmik, etc will get you there. Room shaking bass from a single 12" in a room that big is a tall order. If you can only do a single sub, PSA sells subs with dual ported 15" or 18". I haven't personally heard them but am looking to purchase one soon. If you can do 2 subs or more that's your best bet.

Also, is your floor concrete (carpet over concrete) or wood? That can make a pretty big difference in perceived response, and concrete will kill a lot of the tactile "feel." This is something I am battling in my theater right now. My second row is on a wood riser and the first row is on carpet with concrete under it. Literally a Night and day difference in response and tactile feel between the 2 rows.
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post #25 of 48 Old 11-22-2016, 01:05 AM
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When comparing price to quality, how would you say the $250 is compared to the $500 RBH? I don't expect it to be twice as big just because it's double the price, however I wouldn't want to pay double the price for a small upgrade either. In other words, is it worth double the price for the RBH?
The RBH I-12 is a great sub for $500 or less. I recently bought the $589 Rythmik LV12R and comparing them head to head, with the exact same levels and settings, the RBH was the overall better performer. LV12R was a bit tighter for music, but had less presence. For movies it was no contest. The LV12R couldn't keep up with the I-12 in output and even run moderately hot, the LV12R suffered from clipping during demanding scenes without the limiter even engaging. There was also some very noticeable port noise. The I-12 never missed a beat with the exact same Blu Ray movies WWZ and Underworld Awakening.

If you only want to spend $500 total, never spending more in the future, you'll get more output and smoother frequency response with dual Jamo J-112's over a single I-12. Will they sound as accurate or have as much extension as the I-12? Absolutely not. If you are open to buying a second one later, get the I-12. They should be available soon in the outlet (b-stock) for $404. Not sure if RBH is having a Black Friday sale or not.
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post #26 of 48 Old 11-22-2016, 05:14 AM
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The Best Buy Black Friday is on their website. Just look up the black Friday ad on their homepage it is about halfway through the add.
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post #27 of 48 Old 11-22-2016, 05:19 AM
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do you have a way to diy your own box? subs is one area where i feel diy can save you TONS of money and provide better output

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
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post #28 of 48 Old 11-22-2016, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Probably a combination of bad placement and room being too large for the sub. Put a test tone on and walk around the room to see if you can get the response you're looking for. If not, either get another sub and place it near field, or better yet return it and Get a couple ported 15's or 18's if you can swing it. Anything from SVS, PSA, Rythmik, etc will get you there. Room shaking bass from a single 12" in a room that big is a tall order. If you can only do a single sub, PSA sells subs with dual ported 15" or 18". I haven't personally heard them but am looking to purchase one soon. If you can do 2 subs or more that's your best bet.

Also, is your floor concrete (carpet over concrete) or wood? That can make a pretty big difference in perceived response, and concrete will kill a lot of the tactile "feel." This is something I am battling in my theater right now. My second row is on a wood riser and the first row is on carpet with concrete under it. Literally a Night and day difference in response and tactile feel between the 2 rows.
My whole floor is carpet with concrete underneath.

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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
The RBH I-12 is a great sub for $500 or less. I recently bought the $589 Rythmik LV12R and comparing them head to head, with the exact same levels and settings, the RBH was the overall better performer. LV12R was a bit tighter for music, but had less presence. For movies it was no contest. The LV12R couldn't keep up with the I-12 in output and even run moderately hot, the LV12R suffered from clipping during demanding scenes without the limiter even engaging. There was also some very noticeable port noise. The I-12 never missed a beat with the exact same Blu Ray movies WWZ and Underworld Awakening.

If you only want to spend $500 total, never spending more in the future, you'll get more output and smoother frequency response with dual Jamo J-112's over a single I-12. Will they sound as accurate or have as much extension as the I-12? Absolutely not. If you are open to buying a second one later, get the I-12. They should be available soon in the outlet (b-stock) for $404. Not sure if RBH is having a Black Friday sale or not.
Awesome! Thanks, that's exactly what I was wondering. I may be open to the idea of getting a second sub in the future.. Is the output of the I-12 that much more compared to the Jamo? I'm looking for that feeling a bit more than other qualities I'm sure its much more tight and clear sounding. However since the frequency response goes to 23hz that probably makes you "feel" it more as well, so many variables!
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post #29 of 48 Old 11-22-2016, 09:18 AM
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My whole floor is carpet with concrete underneath.


Awesome! Thanks, that's exactly what I was wondering. I may be open to the idea of getting a second sub in the future.. Is the output of the I-12 that much more compared to the Jamo? I'm looking for that feeling a bit more than other qualities I'm sure its much more tight and clear sounding. However since the frequency response goes to 23hz that probably makes you "feel" it more as well, so many variables!
The I-12 should get you to 20Hz or better. The jamo actually has as much or a little more output I the mid-bass range of 50-70Hz. This is common for lesser quality subs that don't have a linear response.
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post #30 of 48 Old 11-22-2016, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright, so I just saw the "SVS SB12-NSD" was posted on slickdeals on sale for $399 when it's usually $650 and i'm not sure if i'd be missing out on a great deal if I didn't get it before it sells out. It has 400 watts continuous power, in room low frequency extension of 20hz, and max output of 117.1. I can't find max output for the I-12, but it seems like this would be comparable? Then again, I don't know how to compare drivers and ports, and whatever else a sub noob like myself is missing :P
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