Single SVS PC12-Plus or Dual SB-2000s - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
  • 1 Post By Alan P
  • 1 Post By gajCA
  • 1 Post By mthomas47
  • 2 Post By rmk40
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-04-2016, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Single SVS PC12-Plus or Dual SB-2000s

Hi all --

I'm debating between purchasing either a single SVS PC12-Plus or two SB-2000s. I've narrowed it to these two options primarily due to constraints around physical dimensions. The two options are more or less the same price.

My setup is fairly simple: Yamaha RX-V781 receiver and (5) Jamo in-ceiling 10.5A2 speakers. The room is about 20x20', with 10 foot ceilings. I currently have a single Definitive ProSub 800 which isn't even close to keeping up with the rest of the system. It's a decent sub but is not lout enough and does not hit low frequencies well at all. I end up constantly adjusting the volume of the sub depending on what I'm listening to, since it bottoms out on some tracks and not others. Music is my priority (I listen to literally every genre) but this is my main entertainment system as well.

A pair of SB-2000s would "fit" better physically, but if I'm going to get better results with the PC12-Plus, I can make that work as well. Thoughts? Are there distinct trade offs for one option or the other?

Thanks!
rmk40 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-04-2016, 09:57 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 18,417
Mentioned: 214 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8585 Post(s)
Liked: 5784
I added a second sub in my secondary listening room and two subs are more than twice as good as just one in terms of room filling bass that seems to come from nowhere/everywhere; as a side benefit each sub has less weight to lift so distortion is minimized.

Geoff A. J., California
gajCA is online now  
Old 12-04-2016, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2
My decision is actually going to come down to the SVS SB13-plus or a pair of SB2000s. I realized I was comparing apples to oranges with the PC, being ported. The only reason I'd go with the SB2000 is because they will fit in the cabinet behind my TV.

So, SB2000s in the cabinet or a single SB13-plus on the floor. I don't have room for 2 subs on the floor where I'd need to put them. Thoughts?
rmk40 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-04-2016, 09:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MIX_MASTER_ICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,933
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2592 Post(s)
Liked: 2418
Have you done a sub crawl to determine if these spots are good for your seating locations? There is no model SB13-Plus, but there is a PB12-Plus. Do you mean SB13-Ultra? You mention putting SB-2000's in a cabinet, which is a bad idea. Your room is right at 4000 ft^3, which is a large room. A single sealed sub probably won't cut it for movies, even the SB13-ultra. Might be alright for music. I would be looking at ported subs.

BTW, the SVS SB12-NSD is still available on 3rd party sellers through Amazon for $399.99. If you had any inclination on going with two small sealed subs, these would save you a lot of money and are just slightly less capable than the SB-2000.
MIX_MASTER_ICE is online now  
Old 12-04-2016, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Have you done a sub crawl to determine if these spots are good for your seating locations? There is no model SB13-Plus, but there is a PB12-Plus. Do you mean SB13-Ultra? You mention putting SB-2000's in a cabinet, which is a bad idea. Your room is right at 4000 ft^3, which is a large room. A single sealed sub probably won't cut it for movies, even the SB13-ultra. Might be alright for music. I would be looking at ported subs.

BTW, the SVS SB12-NSD is still available on 3rd party sellers through Amazon for $399.99. If you had any inclination on going with two small sealed subs, these would save you a lot of money and are just slightly less capable than the SB-2000.

Oops, you're right - SB13-Ultra is what I was talking about. I just measured the room and it's actually 20x15x10', so 3000 ft^3. However, it's a "great room", so it flows right into the kitchen with almost no separation at 20x18x10'. I'm really only concerned about the main seating area though and music is my priority. If putting subs into a cabinet is a bad idea then any notion of duals is out. I'll need to go with a single which fits into a 20x20" worth of floor space. If the recommendation is ported, then that puts me at the PC13-Ultra.

Just curious, why ported and what's the downside of subs in a cabinet? Basically the cabinet is 22" deep and my TV is really thin, so I was thinking abut putting the subs behind the TV to save space. Unfortunately I'm having to factor aesthetics a lot more than I'd prefer.
rmk40 is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 03:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 3,964
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 812 Post(s)
Liked: 426
Two concerns for installing no subs in a cabinet.

Ventilation for the amp and rattling the cabinet.

I'd suggest 3-4" rear ventilation with some holes in the rear of the cabinet to allow heat to escape and a very well built cabinet like 3/4" bitch ply

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 05:58 AM
Member
 
colinmacdon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 8
Your situation sounds much like mine. Roughly 3200 ft^3 area (although mine's a basement) which is open to other areas. I have two spots up front, both built-in cabinet locations on either side of the TV where I'm limited to 21.5"H x 20"W x 17"D, or a larger sub at the rear of the area. I'm considering dual SB-2000's. I was also considering dual RSL Speedwoofer 10s' ($399 ea) or Rythmik L12's ($509 ea)--have you looked at those? I also have my receiver in the same cabinet, but different divide, and I keep it cool with an AC infinity T3--so that's an option if heat will be an issue.
colinmacdon is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Two concerns for installing no subs in a cabinet.



Ventilation for the amp and rattling the cabinet.



I'd suggest 3-4" rear ventilation with some holes in the rear of the cabinet to allow heat to escape and a very well built cabinet like 3/4" bitch ply

In my case the cabinet location isn't sealed. I'm literally talking about putting the subs behind the TV. There's about 2" on each side of the TV and another 12" above it for air to escape. It's part of a built in and is extremely solid. I've not measured the wood but it's well over an inch think between sections.

At this point I'm thinking a PC13-ultra might be the way to go for this room. The possibility of hiding a pair of SB2000s would have been nice though.
rmk40 is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2


A picture is probably easier. SB2000s would go behind the TV, or PC13 where the small white sub is right now.
rmk40 is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 08:09 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,139
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5379 Post(s)
Liked: 10059
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmk40 View Post


A picture is probably easier. SB2000s would go behind the TV, or PC13 where the small white sub is right now.
Hi,

If you will permit a pretty candid opinion, I don't think it would be a close call, in this case. Putting two subs so close together would essentially negate any benefits from a frequency response or localization standpoint. So, the only remaining benefit would be the up to 6db gain in output you would have. The ported sub is specifically designed to produce more SPL below about 50Hz (the Ultra isn't too shabby above 50Hz either) than an equivalent sealed sub can produce. And the SB2000 isn't an equivalent model to the PC13. The single Ultra should handily outperform two mutually coupled SB2000's below about 60Hz or so, and at least equal them at all other frequencies.

If you are looking for more SPL in that room, and particularly if you enjoy low bass, the PC13 would be an excellent choice.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
Old 12-05-2016, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

If you will permit a pretty candid opinion, I don't think it would be a close call, in this case. Putting two subs so close together would essentially negate any benefits from a frequency response or localization standpoint. So, the only remaining benefit would be the up to 6db gain in output you would have. The ported sub is specifically designed to produce more SPL below about 50Hz (the Ultra isn't too shabby above 50Hz either) than an equivalent sealed sub can produce. And the SB2000 isn't an equivalent model to the PC13. The single Ultra should handily outperform two mutually coupled SB2000's below about 60Hz or so, and at least equal them at all other frequencies.

If you are looking for more SPL in that room, and particularly if you enjoy low bass, the PC13 would be an excellent choice.

Regards,
Mike


Candid feedback is great, this is exactly the type of advise I was seeking. Seems like the best option is going to be the PC13 or SB13. Any sense for how the two would compare in the room I described earlier?
rmk40 is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 08:26 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,139
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5379 Post(s)
Liked: 10059
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmk40 View Post
Candid feedback is great, this is exactly the type of advise I was seeking. Seems like the best option is going to be the PC13 or SB13. Any sense for how the two would compare in the room I described earlier?
You can do a direct comparison by comparing the PB13 numbers on Data-Bass to the SB13 numbers. The PC13 loses about 1.5db in SPL, compared to the PB13, due to the slightly smaller cabinet volume of the cylinder, but otherwise the frequency response is identical. http://www.data-bass.com/systems

The PB or PC13 offers different tuning options, depending on where you want the max SPL. In the 15Hz mode, the PB is about even with the SB at 50Hz, and has a little lower output above 50Hz. From about 30Hz down, though, the PB13 has an enormous output advantage, compared to the SB, due to its larger cabinet volume and ports to move more air. So, it's really about how much output, at what frequencies, you are looking for. Both are excellent subs.

One of the nice things about buying from SVS is the 45-day trial period. So, you could pick one, and not feel that you are locked into an irrevocable decision if it doesn't deliver quite what you were hoping. Personally, I like ported subs for larger rooms, but that is strictly a personal preference, based partly on my appreciation for ULF (ultra low frequencies). I really think you could be happy with either model.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 12-05-2016 at 08:32 AM.
mthomas47 is online now  
Old 12-05-2016, 10:23 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,413
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5369
Placing dual subs...especially ported subs that produce gobs of PR (particle velocity) in that cabinet behind your TV would literally shake your TV to death! Not to mention the heat build up that would also probably reduce the life of both the TV and the subs.....

Having a predetermined location for your sub(s) is a bad idea because subwoofer frequencies interact very differently with the room when compared to frequencies above the modal region (above 200hz or so). You may have a large null (no bass) or peak (too much bass) at your MLP (main listening position). The only way to shift those nulls/peaks is by moving either the sub or the MLP. Since it is much easier to move a sub, that is the preferred option.

If you predetermine the sub location, and that location provides you with a (let's say) -15dB null at 30hz at the MLP...then what?? I'll tell you what, you will come back here saying you are disappointed in your sub and want more recommendations. We will recommend you do a sub crawl and move the sub to the spot in the room that it works best, not looks best.

All of that being said, I fully understand the WAF some guys must deal with...but in my system there is no compromise and it sounds incredible! Don't get me wrong, my system is in my living room as well and there are limits to what even I will accept as far as aesthetics goes...but where there's a will, there's a way.
mthomas47 likes this.
Alan P is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 11:54 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 18,417
Mentioned: 214 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8585 Post(s)
Liked: 5784
What others have said; if you want the worst possible place to put a sub a semi enclosed space behind the tv would be it.

Maybe the attic would be worse, not sure about that.
Alan P likes this.

Geoff A. J., California
gajCA is online now  
Old 12-05-2016, 12:00 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,139
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5379 Post(s)
Liked: 10059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Placing dual subs...especially ported subs that produce gobs of PR (particle velocity) in that cabinet behind your TV would literally shake your TV to death! Not to mention the heat build up that would also probably reduce the life of both the TV and the subs.....

Having a predetermined location for your sub(s) is a bad idea because subwoofer frequencies interact very differently with the room when compared to frequencies above the modal region (above 200hz or so). You may have a large null (no bass) or peak (too much bass) at your MLP (main listening position). The only way to shift those nulls/peaks is by moving either the sub or the MLP. Since it is much easier to move a sub, that is the preferred option.

If you predetermine the sub location, and that location provides you with a (let's say) -15dB null at 30hz at the MLP...then what?? I'll tell you what, you will come back here saying you are disappointed in your sub and want more recommendations. We will recommend you do a sub crawl and move the sub to the spot in the room that it works best, not looks best.

All of that being said, I fully understand the WAF some guys must deal with...but in my system there is no compromise and it sounds incredible! Don't get me wrong, my system is in my living room as well and there are limits to what even I will accept as far as aesthetics goes...but where there's a will, there's a way.
That's a good post, Alan, and you know that I agree with you 100%. But, I sort of like to take this sort of thing in stages, so that people get there in their own time. The first priority, in my opinion, was to forget about putting subs inside a cabinet, and that's done now. Then, the second priority is to select a sub that will be capable in that volume of space, and I would lean toward a single ported Ultra for that. Over time, the OP may very well decide that he wants to experiment with other potential subwoofer locations in his room. And, somewhere along the way, he may also decide to go with dual subs.

But, I took a while to get there in my mixed-use room, and you probably did too. I remember starting with a pretty good predetermined location in my room, and then gradually seeing other options and opportunities, as my bass interests continued to evolve. And, I ended up seeing additional locations for subs, which have worked out well both functionally and aesthetically. So, for most of us, this may be a process, and he is starting on a pretty good path compared to where he has been. Coincidentally, I had a SuperCube, too, as my first sub. And, my problems with it were the same ones he mentioned.

Regards,
Mike
Alan P likes this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
Old 12-05-2016, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2
I've definitely been swayed away from my original bad ideas. Going to go with the PC13-Ultra and see how that works out. I hear you guys about placement but there are other factors that are a higher priority than ideal sound. General aesthetics, wife approval and I have young kids. Buying the right sub, given the size it's going to take up, is probably as far as I'm going to get. If I was placing subs around the room, I'd definitely have to go with smaller ones I could hide, which brings us right back to the same problem of less-than-ideal enclosure spaces. If nothing else the location I'm planning to put the new sub is decent. It's directly below my front-right ceiling speaker, in a corner.

Thanks for all the thoughtful advise and feedback. I've certainly listened and changed course as a result.
mthomas47 and Alan P like this.
rmk40 is offline  
Old 12-05-2016, 01:33 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,413
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6144 Post(s)
Liked: 5369
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmk40 View Post
I've definitely been swayed away from my original bad ideas. Going to go with the PC13-Ultra and see how that works out. I hear you guys about placement but there are other factors that are a higher priority than ideal sound. General aesthetics, wife approval and I have young kids. Buying the right sub, given the size it's going to take up, is probably as far as I'm going to get. If I was placing subs around the room, I'd definitely have to go with smaller ones I could hide, which brings us right back to the same problem of less-than-ideal enclosure spaces. If nothing else the location I'm planning to put the new sub is decent. It's directly below my front-right ceiling speaker, in a corner.

Thanks for all the thoughtful advise and feedback. I've certainly listened and changed course as a result.
Make sure to come back and let us know how it works out for you!
Alan P is offline  
Old 12-23-2016, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 2
I've had the PC13-Ultra for a few weeks now and have been experimenting daily. It's an amazing sub but I'm not quite getting the output I want. SVS support has been excellent, which is not a surprise to anyone. At first the issue was that I actually needed to turn up the sub significantly more than I expected to with my receiver (+3.0db) and 0db (max) on the sub itself. I'm told Yamaha receivers have low voltage from their pre-amp ports, such as LFE. Once those changes were made, I started getting the max out of the sub and was managing to bottom it out.

Last night I decided to plug in a Dayton WS-12 to place an older, second sub (Boston XB4) in a different part of the room. This made a huge difference. I reached out to SVS to ask what they thought about a mismatched sub setup. The recommendation I got was that the second sub should also be ported and that a PC2000 or PB2000 would both work. So, I'm leaning towards picking up a PB2000, since it fits perfectly where I need it to go. I figure if the XB4 sounds is complementing the PC13 this well, I'm going to be pleased when a high-quality sub is in the same spot.


I'm sure the PC13 alone would be enough if I could place it in a more ideal spot but that's just not an option. Anything else I should consider before adding the PB2000?
rmk40 is offline  
Old 12-23-2016, 07:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ted Sheckler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Utah
Posts: 750
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 333 Post(s)
Liked: 292
V1800 + buttkicker.

📺 Sony (XBR-55X930D)
📻 Yamaha (RX-A780)
🎶 SVS (PRIME)

🔊 SVS (PB-1000)
SVS (PC12-NSD)
🎮Switch▪️PS4▪️Xbox One X 2.5TB
Ted Sheckler is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off