Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 106 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3151 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
Basically the PB-16 more or less closes off one end of the hall by its presence.

I'm grasping at straws here, but did you try to scoot the sub a few inches forward so that the face is even with the center of the dividing wall on the left side?
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post #3152 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
I'm grasping at straws here, but did you try to scoot the sub a few inches forward so that the face is even with the center of the dividing wall on the left side?
Nope, and at 175 lbs not likely to. ;-)
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post #3153 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 09:16 PM
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15 an 10 hz causes my sub to chuff at 0mv on my avr and higher...this equates to 115 db overall in big room. all I can think is a settings problem with sub, gain problem, or bad sub.

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post #3154 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
I'm grasping at straws here, but did you try to scoot the sub a few inches forward so that the face is even with the center of the dividing wall on the left side?
I don't think that's a grasp, since it was going to be my suggestion. It adds some boundary gain and keeps more bass in the room and out of the hall.
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post #3155 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
Then that would be the 15 Hz and 10 Hz tones that cause the chuffing.

Mike would have to confirm, but I would imagine the PB16 has some heavy limiters in it to protect it, but the 15 and 10 hz tones are sub destroyers, because they are below the port tune of almost all subs. The 2400 is ported at 14 hz and the 4000 is ported at 10 hz, but they are both too large for your space. If you are trying to fill a good size room, most subs will struggle with those two frequencies, because of the port tuning.

If those are the only frequencies giving you issues, then I would imagine something is a little over boosted. Besides, I wouldn't be that concerned with them that much, because there is very little source material that goes that low.

Also, once frequencies go below 20 hz, they need to be quite a bit louder to seem to be at the same level. It's just the way human hearing works.
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post #3156 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I don't think that's a grasp, since it was going to be my suggestion. It adds some boundary gain and keeps more bass in the room and out of the hall.

My thoughts exactly Marc.
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post #3157 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
The hall actually ends in a hall leading to the front entry of my house.

Basically the PB-16 more or less closes off one end of the hall by its presence.

You can't really see the center of the sub from the listening position.

Also, I posted these numbers on the SVS thread and thought I'd share them here to see what people thought:

These are the minimum volume levels at which chuffing would occur, all taken at about 1 meter in front of the sub:

Edge of Tomorrow intro notes:
  • Extended (one port stuffed): 97 dB
  • Standard (no ports stuffed): 100 dB
  • Sealed: No chuffing. :-)

War of the Worlds (59:17 - the dock scene when they notice a tripod up on the hill that loudly "thumps" its right foot down just before making the "horn" noise):
  • Extended Mode (1 port stuffed): 98 dB
  • Standard Mode (all ports open): 101 dB
  • Sealed: No chuffing. :-)
Personally, I would put the Cap 2400ULF there in that spot. It is easier to jump over into the hallway when the wife starts chucking dishes at you!

The Captivator S2 has no risk of chuffing whatsoever.
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post #3158 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Personally, I would put the Cap 2400ULF there in that spot. It is easier to jump over into the hallway when the wife starts chucking dishes at you!

The Captivator S2 has no risk of chuffing whatsoever.
To be fair no sealed sub does.

I get it with EoT; I wonder what frequency that "thump" in WotW is.

But the bottom line seems to be that unless I get something like the 2400, most any single ported sub is going to have the same issue on the ridiculous EoT tones given the report above of the FV18 chuffing?

Last edited by kucharsk; 04-30-2017 at 10:42 PM.
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post #3159 of 13213 Old 04-30-2017, 11:00 PM
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Guys I am at a loss for what to do next. I have tried running the gain lower with more LF adjust and I have tried more gain with the LF adjusted lower and just about everything in between on the cap 1400. I am just getting this really bad resonating that isn't the walls, etc on certain material. For instance I am playing the Last of Us and to get the slam I like from gunshots, explosions etc I was running sub around 2 on the gain and also had LF up to around 3. On certain points in that game its like there is bad feedback - almost like what you hear with feedback on a microphone but not quite that shrill of a sound. Sometimes it might be the background music - the Last of Us uses a lot of guitar music - and when whoever strums that guitar it just resonates my ears something terrible. I guess most of it is the room and maybe the 1400 having more mid-bass than the PB 13 is just overpowering but its like I am in a no win situation. If I tone the sub down I don't get slam/feedback I want and of course when I turn it up you get the result I just mentioned. I have tried running MV anywhere from -21 to -18.
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post #3160 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
To be fair no sealed sub does.

I get it with EoT; I wonder what frequency that "thump" in WotW is.

But the bottom line seems to be that unless I get something like the 2400, most any single ported sub is going to have the same issue on the ridiculous EoT tones given the report above of the FV18 chuffing?
The report above says the FV18s do NOT chuff, but to be fair @gwsat has dual FV18s. I believe @torii has dual FV15s at the moment and is stating that volume has to be cranked before chuffing.

I think you have multiple factors against you: multiple room openings usually requires ported subs or very capable sealed arrays - sealing that hallway entry would likely help; limitation of a single sub - duals allow for more headroom, so each sub doesn't have to work as hard; limited placement options - "the sub must go here" is often a recipe for suboptimal performance.

A single sub can work well in some rooms in the right spot. To hit those torturing scenes with a single sub requires much sub:

JTR Cap 4000ULF
JtR Cap 2400ULF
Rythmik FV25
JTR Cap S2
Multiple sealed subs (Seaton Sound stack)
*Rythmik FV18 (a single may not chuff but could)
*JTR Cap 1400s (a single probably chuffs but duals should be fine)

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 05-01-2017 at 08:16 AM.
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post #3161 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 02:35 AM
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To be clear I'm not looking for (literally) earth shaking levels of bass, just that to the degree possible it not chuff.

As I said earlier, perhaps I am asking too much of a ported sub in my room; obviously sealed dubs don't chuff but also don't have quite the same impact.

I've been playing a few other things and have heard a few other chuffs, but mostly on things I'd expect them on like the rocket launch in Interstellar.
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post #3162 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 02:36 AM
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@4kicknsnd we don't know what -21 to -18 MV represents unless you are calibrated to reference. How are you calibrating levels? Do you have an SPL meter or calibrated mic? What AVR do you have? How did you choose the placement position for your sub?

The Last of Us annoying sound, does it occur with any other game or movie? You may want to record with your phone and post on YouTube.
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post #3163 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
To be clear I'm not looking for (literally) earth shaking levels of bass, just that to the degree possible it not chuff.

As I said earlier, perhaps I am asking too much of a ported sub in my room; obviously sealed dubs don't chuff but also don't have quite the same impact.

I've been playing a few other things and have heard a few other chuffs, but mostly on things I'd expect them on like the rocket launch in Interstellar.
How did you choose the placement position for your sub? Have you tried it on the other side of the TV? TBH where it is right now is probably the worst possible place.
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post #3164 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
How did you choose the placement position for your sub? Have you tried it on the other side of the TV? TBH where it is right now is probably the worst possible place.
It worked well for both my Velodyne F1500R and DD-18.

No room on the other side of the TV, unfortunately.
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post #3165 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 04:59 AM
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If there is interest in a upright (tall) version of the 2400ULF than I'll build a prototype.
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post #3166 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
To be fair no sealed sub does.

I get it with EoT; I wonder what frequency that "thump" in WotW is.

But the bottom line seems to be that unless I get something like the 2400, most any single ported sub is going to have the same issue on the ridiculous EoT tones given the report above of the FV18 chuffing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The report above says the FV18s do NOT chuff, but to be fair @gwsat has dual FV18s. I believe @torii has dual FV15s at the moment and is stating that volume has to be cranked before chuffing.

I think you have multiple factors against you: multiple room openings usually requires ported subs or very capable sealed arrays - sealing that hallway entry would likely help; limitation of a single sub - duals allow for more headroom, so each sub doesn't have to work as hard; limited placement options - "the sub must go here" is often a recipe for suboptimal performance.

A single sub can work well in some rooms in the right spot. To hit those torturing scenes with a single sub requires much sub:

JTR Cap 4000ULF
JtR Cap 2400ULF
Rythmik F25
JTR Cap S2
Multiple sealed subs (Seaton Sound stack)
*Rythmik FV18 (a single may not chuff but could)
*JTR Cap 1400s (a single probably chuffs but duals should be fine)
The upcoming Rythmik FV25 should be added to this list. It is tuned to 12hz like the FV18 but will have 4-5db greater ULF output compared to the FV18.

It's is tall and has a smaller footprint compared to the 2400ULF, and since you're footprint constrained, would be a great option.

Here is a comparison thread of the 2400 and the FV25

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...io-fv25hp.html

However, if chuffing bothers you so much, you should go the sealed route. Any ported sub can be pushed to its limits and cause chuffing, especially if the signal is below tune and it demands high output.

If you want to stay ported, the 4000 (10hz tune), 2400 (14hz tune), FV25 (12hz tune), and FV18 (12hz tune) would be the best options as they are tuned low.

Quote:
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If there is interest in a upright (tall) version of the 2400ULF than I'll build a prototype.
^^^This would be a great option, and would think have a lot more placement flexibility for many!
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post #3167 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The report above says the FV18s do NOT chuff, but to be fair @gwsat has dual FV18s. I believe @torii has dual FV15s at the moment and is stating that volume has to be cranked before chuffing.
I believe Tori has one FV15hp. @gwsat hasn't pushed his FV18's hard enough. Perhaps they chuff at crazy loud level?
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post #3168 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 06:54 AM
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I have 1x hp15 that will chuff on the low stuff like 10-15hz at close to 0mv.. I dont listen to alot of stuff that loud or low so has only happened during rew sweeps 1st second or 2 of super low stuff or maybe a movie Im playing at 0mv. music not really because I dont listen that loud or the genre just doesnt have those low notes. its a great sub and Im sure the 18's are another notch or 2 higher.
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post #3170 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 07:17 AM
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If there is interest in a upright (tall) version of the 2400ULF than I'll build a prototype.


Yes! I think there would be a large market for this. Especially if it was close to the same footprint as the 1400 but taller


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post #3171 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@4kicknsnd we don't know what -21 to -18 MV represents unless you are calibrated to reference. How are you calibrating levels? Do you have an SPL meter or calibrated mic? What AVR do you have? How did you choose the placement position for your sub?

The Last of Us annoying sound, does it occur with any other game or movie? You may want to record with your phone and post on YouTube.
Sorry - calibrated using Audyssey on Denon receiver - sub is set at 0 in AVR. Sub is in line with front speakers - tv. Right now it is between the TV and the right tower. Even tried swapping places with right tower just to see if that would make a difference and it sounded pretty much the same to me. The only other suitable location is on the back wall directly behind the MLP. Just seems to be with any material that is more middle ground on the frequency chart. Not just the guitar I mentioned either - there is other music played - what I call mood music - and that also has that same effect. I guess it is more noticeable in that game because the sound effects are drawn out more than just a quick note.
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post #3172 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
To be clear I'm not looking for (literally) earth shaking levels of bass, just that to the degree possible it not chuff.

As I said earlier, perhaps I am asking too much of a ported sub in my room; obviously sealed dubs don't chuff but also don't have quite the same impact.

I've been playing a few other things and have heard a few other chuffs, but mostly on things I'd expect them on like the rocket launch in Interstellar.
You are not asking too much of a ported sub....sealed subs won't play 10hz like ported would unless you get couple of them. You would need multiple sb16s just to get what ported pb16 can do at 15 or 10hz.

Have you tried putting your sub nearfield such as behind the couch? I have dual pb13s and while they are no slouch by any means it was the best thing I've done is nearfield. Just try it temporarily so you get idea what nearfield sounds like. Thats the only way you're gonna get that earth shaking bass unless you step up to cap 2400 or 4000.....or even s2 which you can put where pb16 is and have walking room.

Best part about nearfield is you can turn down the sub and get a lot more tactile response compared to farfield.....and less likely to chuff. But I think you have a defective sub regardless which way you go. You already got a lot of nice responses here....you just need to experiment.

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post #3173 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
If there is interest in a upright (tall) version of the 2400ULF than I'll build a prototype.

IMHO, an upright version most definitely will make the 2400 ULF more popular and a much easier recommendation for a majority of hometheaters. Depth and and especially width could even go up a few inches if you'd like to go for the kill .
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post #3174 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 08:06 AM
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^^ Try to bump up your trim +8 or +10, rewatch Hacksaw Ridge and report back
How does everyone know these are 'safe' levels? Ie post audyssey is there some rule of thumb how much we can crank it up without hurting the drivers?
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How does everyone know these are 'safe' levels? Ie post audyssey is there some rule of thumb how much we can crank it up without hurting the drivers?
I don't use audyssey or any room correction software. To know its safe? I calibrated the system to reference with subs few dbs hot and then turn overall volume down to your liking......safe as can be.

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post #3176 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 08:17 AM
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The upcoming Rythmik FV25 should be added to this list.
F25 was a typo, corrected. Thx!
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post #3177 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
Sorry - calibrated using Audyssey on Denon receiver - sub is set at 0 in AVR. Sub is in line with front speakers - tv. Right now it is between the TV and the right tower. Even tried swapping places with right tower just to see if that would make a difference and it sounded pretty much the same to me. The only other suitable location is on the back wall directly behind the MLP. Just seems to be with any material that is more middle ground on the frequency chart. Not just the guitar I mentioned either - there is other music played - what I call mood music - and that also has that same effect. I guess it is more noticeable in that game because the sound effects are drawn out more than just a quick note.
What you are describing sounds to me like a room resonance occurring at a particular frequency. I had something like that with a large speaker which was somewhat corner loaded with a built-in cabinet. I got a really gnarly sounding resonance, from the cabinet itself, at around 60 or 70Hz. My only recourse in that case, even with XT-32, was to either move the speaker, which I couldn't do, or to add a corner bass trap there, which worked just fine.

I have no idea why your Cap 1400 would excite a room resonance (not room mode--this where some wall or object in the room resonates sympathetically at a particular frequency) where your PB13 did not. Did you try the back wall, just to be thorough? When you said that you switched positions on the front wall, at first I thought that it couldn't be something in the room resonating, but perhaps it could be that whole front wall. Try pulling the sub away from the wall by several inches. It doesn't sound as if you need the boundary gain, and if it is the wall resonating, that might help.

The only other explanation I can think of seems far-fetched, and that would involve an issue with the cabinet of the Cap 1400 itself. It does sound as if what you are describing is a sympathetic resonance, and I suppose it is conceivable that there there could be some flaw in the cabinet that could cause that. Frankly, I doubt it, but if you try moving the sub out more from the wall, or in other room locations, I don't know what else could be responsible. Try moving the sub and then let us know.

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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #3178 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
To be clear I'm not looking for (literally) earth shaking levels of bass, just that to the degree possible it not chuff.

As I said earlier, perhaps I am asking too much of a ported sub in my room; obviously sealed dubs don't chuff but also don't have quite the same impact.

I've been playing a few other things and have heard a few other chuffs, but mostly on things I'd expect them on like the rocket launch in Interstellar.
A number of people have been wishing that Jeff would offer a tall version of the Cap 2400, with about the same footprint as the Cap 1400. His offer to do a prototype might be exactly the solution you are looking for. I have had some reservations about a single Cap 1400 in your specific situation. I would have no such reservations about a Cap 2400.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #3179 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
IMHO, an upright version most definitely will make the 2400 ULF more popular and a much easier recommendation for a majority of hometheaters. Depth and and especially width could even go up a few inches if you'd like to go for the kill .
Yeah but why do right after I make a purchase .
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post #3180 of 13213 Old 05-01-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
What you are describing sounds to me like a room resonance occurring at a particular frequency. I had something like that with a large speaker which was somewhat corner loaded with a built-in cabinet. I got a really gnarly sounding resonance, from the cabinet itself, at around 60 or 70Hz. My only recourse in that case, even with XT-32, was to either move the speaker, which I couldn't do, or to add a corner bass trap there, which worked just fine.

I have no idea why your Cap 1400 would excite a room resonance (not room mode--this where some wall or object in the room resonates sympathetically at a particular frequency) where your PB13 did not. Did you try the back wall, just to be thorough? When you said that you switched positions on the front wall, at first I thought that it couldn't be something in the room resonating, but perhaps it could be that whole front wall. Try pulling the sub away from the wall by several inches. It doesn't sound as if you need the boundary gain, and if it is the wall resonating, that might help.

The only other explanation I can think of seems far-fetched, and that would involve an issue with the cabinet of the Cap 1400 itself. It does sound as if what you are describing is a sympathetic resonance, and I suppose it is conceivable that there there could be some flaw in the cabinet that could cause that. Frankly, I doubt it, but if you try moving the sub out more from the wall, or in other room locations, I don't know what else could be responsible. Try moving the sub and then let us know.

Regards,
Mike

While I am not certain this is the same thing. I was having a similar issue with room mode making the sound "harsh and unpleasant" I resolved it by adjusting the LF adjustment. Might I suggest you try playing that same track, while adjusting the LFA. I tried all 10 settings and found 8 to be the sweet spot for my room. This will be one hell of a lot easier than moving the sub around the room. Process of elimination. Do the easy stuff first!
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