Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 132 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3931 of 13411 Old 06-12-2017, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Yes, it will be there.
Awesome
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post #3932 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by xcjago View Post
Only one word comes to mind,,,,,,,,, Prolapse!! The 118 has way more than i would have thought as well.
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post #3933 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The Cap 118 video is of CEA-2010 burst tones. 😲
I recognized this video was in some outdoor space, as in half-space outdoor space. If numbers look "good" (matching or following Data-Bass's on the 118HT?), congrats. Actually, I'm very impressed with your effort regardless.

I'm not too interested in JTR numbers since they are already known or will be known shortly; some other subwoofers you have OTOH have never been tested. You're in a unique position.

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post #3934 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Down low, the Cap 1400 is just cleaner, more robust, and creates even more wind! Don't get me wrong, the Cap 118HT is also a lean mean wind machine!
I often wonder if the reason in Jeff's design to place the driver so close to the port is to create more wind instead of having a more balance look to have the driver further up but have less wind?
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post #3935 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I often wonder if the reason in Jeff's design to place the driver so close to the port is to create more wind instead of having a more balance look to have the driver further up but have less wind?
Please correct me if I am wrong... I am guessing here...

If the driver is closer to the port, the baffle is further strengthened because the slot port can also act as a brace?

In addition, the air has to travel further so maybe it adds to the port length and helps to lower port tune?

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post #3936 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I'm not too interested in JTR numbers since they are already known or will be known shortly; some other subwoofers you have OTOH have never been tested. You're in a unique position.
Marc needs to measure the JTR subs that have been measured on Data-bass so that he can correlate his CEA 2010 numbers with those on Data-bass.

Yup. This is one of the perks of being JTR owners: we already know from independent sources what we are getting. No speculations. No surprises. So boring. Yawn...

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post #3937 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Please correct me if I am wrong... I am guessing here...

If the driver is closer to the port, the baffle is further strengthened because the slot port can also act as a brace?

In addition, the air has to travel further so maybe it adds to the port length and helps to lower port tune?
It's to lower the center of gravity by having the driver closer to the floor. If he placed it higher, the cabinet may rock from the high excursion.
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post #3938 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting discussion. Other aspects that I'm thinking about: I suspect a driver that is closer to the ground also measures "better" in half space (and/or sounds "better" in room) due to more boundary reinforcement from the ground plane. For example, in a dual subwoofer configuration, I would think the upper driver may not contribute as well as, or at least differently from, the lower one. The mic being on the ground plane also is a little further from upper driver, which would make a difference as far as measurement is concerned.

All amateur level speculation . And not to imply at all above has anything to do with where Jeff places the driver.

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post #3939 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
It's to lower the center of gravity by having the driver closer to the floor. If he placed it higher, the cabinet may rock from the high excursion.
That i can confirm as even my S-1 will rock back and forth as its sitting on a fairly plush carpet.
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post #3940 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
That i can confirm as even my S-1 will rock back and forth as its sitting on a fairly plush carpet.
JTR sub: it rocks... (literally).
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post #3941 of 13411 Old 06-13-2017, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
JTR sub: It rocks... (literally).
Considering how heavy the sub is and its low center of gravity its quite impressive how violent that driver can be as it does really shake back and forth with its ridicules excursion. lol.
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post #3942 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Marc needs to measure the JTR subs that have been measured on Data-bass so that he can correlate his CEA 2010 numbers with those on Data-bass.

Yup. This is one of the perks of being JTR owners: we already know from independent sources what we are getting. No speculations. No surprises. So boring. Yawn...
Well, not all of us JTR Customers already know! Still excitedly awaiting testing of the 2400ULF.

In the Slow MO Vids above. The 1400 in particular. If you look closely at the floor board seam line, you can see the Sub dancing around on the floor. I suspect there is a pile of saw dust underneath that sub. I would also suggest some form of rug or padding be placed under this sub to protect that fine wood floor finish

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post #3943 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
In the Slow MO Vids above. The 1400 in particular. If you look closely at the floor board seam line, you can see the Sub dancing around on the floor. I suspect there is a pile of saw dust underneath that sub. I would also suggest some form of rug or padding be placed under this sub to protect that fine wood floor finish
I'm pretty sure the subs were all on furniture dollys. That may explain the dancing!
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post #3944 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 08:55 AM
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I imported the data-bass data into Excel and made a chart to compare all the tested JTR stuff.



I can select just a few subs/speakers and change the quantity. The legend changes to reflect the new quantities. Here are my 3 Noesis 215RT's vs 2 Captivator 4000ULFs and 2 Orbit Shifter LFU's.

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post #3945 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I imported the data-bass data into Excel and made a chart to compare all the tested JTR stuff.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing dd.

Boy, those 215s aren't messing around with the max burst numbers. From 20 up, they are kicking ass and taking names! I'm really surprised they are that close to the LFUs. Impressive.
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post #3946 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I'm pretty sure the subs were all on furniture dollys. That may explain the dancing!
Hi Marc,

I think what you are doing is extremely interesting and enterprising, and I am looking forward to seeing your comparison results. But, this brings up a question I have been wanting to ask you. When you do your CEA measurements are you planning to leave the test subs on a dolly? I noticed that in a picture a while back, the sub shown outdoors was on a dolly. And, I know from experience that it's much easier to maneuver the subs that way.

The reason I ask is because I am concerned that leaving them on the dolly during testing might conceivably skew your results a little. The 2m ground plane tests I have seen always had the sub sitting directly on the ground, or asphalt, or whatever. I am not certain that raising the sub away from the surface by just a few inches would make any significant difference with respect to boundary gain, but you will be going to so much effort otherwise (to measure from exactly 2m, for instance) that I hate to see you take the chance that it might affect the results.

You may (probably) already have considered this, but just FWIW.

Regards,
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post #3947 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I imported the data-bass data into Excel and made a chart to compare all the tested JTR stuff.



I can select just a few subs/speakers and change the quantity. The legend changes to reflect the new quantities. Here are my 3 Noesis 215RT's vs 2 Captivator 4000ULFs and 2 Orbit Shifter LFU's.

So the latest Cap 1400, etc have not been tested yet - correct?
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post #3948 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Marc,

I think what you are doing is extremely interesting and enterprising, and I am looking forward to seeing your comparison results. But, this brings up a question I have been wanting to ask you. When you do your CEA measurements are you planning to leave the test subs on a dolly? I noticed that in a picture a while back, the sub shown outdoors was on a dolly. And, I know from experience that it's much easier to maneuver the subs that way.

The reason I ask is because I am concerned that leaving them on the dolly during testing might conceivably skew your results a little. The 2m ground plane tests I have seen always had the sub sitting directly on the ground, or asphalt, or whatever. I am not certain that raising the sub away from the surface by just a few inches would make any significant difference with respect to boundary gain, but you will be going to so much effort otherwise (to measure from exactly 2m, for instance) that I hate to see you take the chance that it might affect the results.

You may (probably) already have considered this, but just FWIW.

Regards,
Mike
Great points as always!

The CEA testing that has been done over the last week or so has all been off of the dolly. @asarose247 came over this morning to test his L-Horn. Because of its massive size (over 6'x2.5'x2') we actually tried testing on the dolly and it most definitely affected the results. Everything will be tested on a blanket or foam pad.

For Saturday's in-room listening I believe we should ditch the dollys and place the subs on foam. The CEA testing has been a great learning experience for me and once the Captivators are retested we can see how close the numbers are to DB.com.
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post #3949 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Great points as always!

The CEA testing that has been done over the last week or so has all been off of the dolly. @asarose247 came over this morning to test his L-Horn. Because of its massive size (over 6'x2.5'x2') we actually tried testing on the dolly and it most definitely affected the results. Everything will be tested on a blanket or foam pad.

For Saturday's in-room listening I believe we should ditch the dollys and place the subs on foam. The CEA testing has been a great learning experience for me and once the Captivators are retested we can see how close the numbers are to DB.com.
I think it will be alright if we leave the subs on the dollys for in-room listening. This will allow faster swapping out of subs.

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post #3950 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
So the latest Cap 1400, etc have not been tested yet - correct?
Correct. They have not been tested.

Desertdome's graphs are based on those available on Data-bass. If the subs are not on Data-bass, then they won't be on his graphs.

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post #3951 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it just me or does that orange curve really stand out like a sore thumb?



Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I imported the data-bass data into Excel and made a chart to compare all the tested JTR stuff.



I can select just a few subs/speakers and change the quantity. The legend changes to reflect the new quantities. Here are my 3 Noesis 215RT's vs 2 Captivator 4000ULFs and 2 Orbit Shifter LFU's.


Regards, Can
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Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
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post #3953 of 13411 Old 06-14-2017, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Well, not all of us JTR Customers already know! Still excitedly awaiting testing of the 2400ULF.

In the Slow MO Vids above. The 1400 in particular. If you look closely at the floor board seam line, you can see the Sub dancing around on the floor. I suspect there is a pile of saw dust underneath that sub. I would also suggest some form of rug or padding be placed under this sub to protect that fine wood floor finish

Adam's for your sake I hope Josh won't test Hollywood style: starting with the lesser "brothers" (new 1400, S1, etc.) and building it up to a climax. Saving the best for last to capture more eyeballs.

Not to worry I'm sure the results of 2400 would be way out there too.
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post #3954 of 13411 Old 06-15-2017, 08:34 AM
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Hi @desertdome ,

Excellent graphs. They add a great deal of clarity. Thank you!

I was wondering if it would be possible to add the JTR 2400 ULF to your graphs? You could * the 2400ULF as not yet tested by Databass.

Here are the numbers: @10Hz=98dbs; @12.5Hz=108.3dbs; @16Hz=112.3dbs; @20hz =114.8dbs; @25Hz=118,6dbs; @31.5Hz=121.8dbs; @40Hz=122.7dbs; @50Hz=123.2dbs; @63Hz=122.9dbs; @80Hz=122.6dbs

The 2400ULF's performance values added to this graph would be very interesting and is possibly the "Missing Link" of Subwoofers.
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post #3955 of 13411 Old 06-16-2017, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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OT - As I wandered the LA Audio Show 2017 as expected I noticed it is devoid of any competitor to my beloved 1400 (let alone 2400), but this is not meant as criticism. This show is geared towards a certain audience - it is what it is . There is however one product worth mentioning, not because of its output and CEA numbers, but because its technology is interesting. Intesting "good," not interesting "bad," LOL.

Wilson-Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generator, at $9.5k including amp and crossover. The following is completely AFAIK so no flame pls :-), just correct me as needed. It has two voice coils and operates in a push pull manner, without the use of a spider. The drive is actively pulled back to position, as opposed to conventional driver where the spider does the function.

Unfortunately it is a "silent" demo as subwoofer was not hooked up. Too bad because I had with me my personal demo CD that would give me some idea of what it does. At any rate, I would have to admit, it would be so interesting to see CEA-2010 numbers for this subwoofer.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://wilson-benesch.com/products/t...generator.html
The Torus places an 18” light-weight, super-stiff, multi-axial Carbon Fibre cone at the end of a phenomenally powerful push-pull motor. Unlike a common subwoofer that relies upon a high hysteresis suspension to reset the cone to zero, the cone position in the Torus is dictated at all times by electromagnetism. The result is low frequency sound with absolute precision and integration across the frequency range.






.

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post #3956 of 13411 Old 06-16-2017, 06:10 PM
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Wilson-Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generator, at $9.5k including amp and crossover. The following is completely AFAIK so no flame pls :-), just correct me as needed. It has two voice coils and operates in a push pull manner, without the need of a spider. The drive is actively pulled back to position, as opposed to conventional driver where the spider does the function.

http://wilson-benesch.com/products/t...generator.html
The Torus places an 18” light-weight, super-stiff, multi-axial Carbon Fibre cone at the end of a phenomenally powerful push-pull motor. Unlike a common subwoofer that relies upon a high hysteresis suspension to reset the cone to zero, the cone position in the Torus is dictated at all times by electromagnetism. The result is low frequency sound with absolute precision and integration across the frequency range.

I'm intrigued. Think they would send me one to review? Yea, I didn't think so either. In spite of us sharing a name, I suspect they would tell me to #$%^ off.

Shame too, as I would love to hear one of those myself.
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post #3957 of 13411 Old 06-17-2017, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm intrigued. Think they would send me one to review? Yea, I didn't think so either. In spite of us sharing a name, I suspect they would tell me to #$%^ off.

Shame too, as I would love to hear one of those myself.
Note also this is "original" across-the-pond Wilson, not American Wilson, "diluted" sorry Jim - kidding, so you further lose points.

Being that Jeff worked with Eminence developing drivers and his expertise/forte is in driver selection/design, I actually feel a little "uneasy" ;-) posting new driver development here, but this one is interesting enough. Essentially it works like my panel speaker Magnaplanar 3.5's ribbon driver, active push-pull action.

The only other subwoofer I saw at the show is a (?) $2600 tripple 12 inchers, 2 active. It weighs 81 lbs or so. Our driver (your S1 and my 1400) weighs 60 lbs just by itself so I don't think we need to be curious about that one :-). Thank goodness for this forum and Internet Direct companies.
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Last edited by cannga; 06-17-2017 at 07:43 PM.
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post #3958 of 13411 Old 06-17-2017, 02:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post

The only other subwoofer I saw at the show is a (?) $2600 tripple 12 inchers, 2 active. It weighs 81 lbs or so. Our driver (your S1 and my 1400) weighs 60 lbs just by itself so I don't think we need to be curious about that one :-). Thank goodness for this forum and Internet Direct companies.
60lbs.???? Didn't think the Cap driver weighed that much Things that weigh 60 lbs.:




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post #3959 of 13411 Old 06-18-2017, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
60lbs.???? Didn't think the Cap driver weighed that much Things that weigh 60 lbs.:
I did not actually weigh the driver! But I can say this is what it felt like, when struggling to reinstall the driver, into the countersunk cabinet frame! Not only is it very heavy, but there are precious few places to establish a solid grip. All the weight is at the back of the Driver. Therefore the cantilever forces make it feel even heavier as you attempt to reseat it.

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post #3960 of 13411 Old 06-18-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
I did not actually weigh the driver! But I can say this is what it felt like, when struggling to reinstall the driver, into the countersunk cabinet frame! Not only is it very heavy, but there are precious few places to establish a solid grip. All the weight is at the back of the Driver. Therefore the cantilever forces make it feel even heavier as you attempt to reseat it.


Zip ties!! I too used to struggle with massive drivers until I read about that trick years ago. Put the ties through the holes and then you just hang on to the zip ties as you lower the driver into place. When you cut the ties you can easily pull them out from under the driver. Saves you fingers for sure!
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