Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 160 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4771 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Looks like a heavyweight fighting a middleweight.


Yeah. Only thing is that the middle weight has another arm you cannot see that is just as big. How do you have your subs connected? RCA cable in left or right? And off/trig position?


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post #4772 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 08:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Yeah. Only thing is that the middle weight has another arm you cannot see that is just as big. How do you have your subs connected? RCA cable in left or right? And off/trig position?


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I am using XLR balanced connectors. I have them on a trigger cable that come on with the Emotiva.
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post #4773 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ksmchristy View Post
I decided to tinker with my 1400 this week and made a couple changes that made a significant improvement in output. First I purchased a 1" slab of finished black granite cut to the footprint size of my sub. I added rubber feet to the 1400 and placed it on the granite slab. Second I added a splitter to the LFE output cable from my Onkyo TXNR-1009 where it connects to my sub. I ran Audyssey again and the difference was noticeable. From my listening position 10 ft. away I felt air from the ports for the first time. Some of this probably from raising the sub up off the floor. Curious if adding the splitter actually makes any difference or if it is just a wasted extra connection.
It depends on what's under your sub. If you have hardwood floors or tiles, then putting something between the sub and the floor would isolate the sub from the floor and make the sound a little better. All you need is some PVA mat or anti-fatigue mat. If you have carpet, then it should not matter, unless your sub is moving during use.

The splitter just makes the signal going to your sub stronger.

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post #4774 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I am using XLR balanced connectors. I have them on a trigger cable that come on with the Emotiva.


Thanks. May be others using RCA cable can advise.


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post #4775 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks. May be others using RCA cable can advise.


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You can use either right or left rca, don't matter. In the past I have just used the left rca. If you use a y splitter for both left/right you get a boost in signal which gives you more output on the sub.
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post #4776 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
You can use either right or left rca, don't matter. In the past I have just used the left rca. If you use a y splitter for both left/right you get a boost in signal which gives you more output on the sub.


Oh ok. By the way do you know is there is an advantage to using a XLR to RCA adapter to connect the sub to the AVR? The AVR has RCA.


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post #4777 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Guys what is the off/trig option at the top in the attached pic? Also where should connect my RCA cable? Left or right?

Also I thought the Cap 1400 had speaker power amps. This one says ICE power. Is that so?

Edit: looks like the speaker power is on the 2400 and higher.
1. Left = Off, center = auto, Right = on . Left also says Trig because it is also for if you're using 12V trigger

2. SpeakerPower is the name of the manufacturer. Ice Power is the name of the 700W power module. Cap 1400 uses 2 700W modules. JTR's amps are all from SpeakerPower.
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post #4778 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
1. Left = Off, center = auto, Right = on . Left also says Trig because it is also for if you're using 12V trigger

2. SpeakerPower is the name of the manufacturer. Ice Power is the name of the 700W power module. Cap 1400 uses 2 700W modules. JTR's amps are all from SpeakerPower.


Thanks. Any advantage you are aware of using a XLR to RCA adapter to connect to RCA on AVR? I asked LFE junkie above as well to see what he knows.


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post #4779 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
How do you have your subs connected? RCA cable in left or right? And off/trig position?
RCA cable in left. I only turn on my sub when watching a movie.

When I turn it on, I switch it to auto.

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post #4780 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks. Any advantage you are aware of using a XLR to RCA adapter to connect to RCA on AVR? I asked LFE junkie above as well to see what he knows.
XLR is the best choice if your AVR or Pre/Pro accepts XLR... It's supposed to be balanced.

If your AVR only accepts regular RCA subwoofer cable, then that's what you should use.
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post #4781 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Guys what is the off/trig option at the top in the attached pic?
On = the sub amp is powered on all the time.
Auto = the amp goes into standby when no signal is applied for a short period of time. The main amps are off but a low power circuit is monitoring the inputs for a signal and will power up the amps when it detects a signal again.
Off/Trigger = the amp is off until a 12V signal is applied to the trigger input. Most modern AVRs and pre-pros have 12V trigger outputs to trigger accessory equipment to power up.

If you don't use a trigger cable (I recommended using one if your AVR has a trigger output), probably best to set it to Auto to turn your sub amp off when you are not using it.
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post #4782 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:36 PM
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@ imureh,

The dials and switches on the sub amp look good. Just connect a subwoofer RCA cable, level match it with the other channels and get ready to rumble!!!

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post #4783 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
@ imureh,

The dials and switches on the sub amp look good. Just connect a subwoofer RCA cable, level match it with the other channels and get ready to rumble!!!


Thanks guys. It will have to wait till tomorrow afternoon. Kids in bed and I am off too. Early start. Dang! Time ran out.


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post #4784 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 09:52 PM
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Using a Y RCA cable will double the signal into the amp, making it louder at a given gain setting. But realistically, if you are only using a single input (L or R) can't you just bump up the gain to make it just as loud as when both L and R inputs are receiving a signal?

In other words, there is zero benefit to using a Y cable assuming you can get an acceptable sub volume level using a single input.

In my case, the gain is set to about the 1/4 level. With both inputs connected, I'd have turn it back to 1/8 to balance the bass, negating any benefit of connecting both inputs...

The only time you need a Y cable and connection to both inputs is if your AVR/pre-pro has an unusually low output on the sub channel and you are near max on the sub gain setting.

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post #4785 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
It depends on what's under your sub. If you have hardwood floors or tiles, then putting something between the sub and the floor would isolate the sub from the floor and make the sound a little better. All you need is some PVA mat or anti-fatigue mat. If you have carpet, then it should not matter, unless your sub is moving during use.

The splitter just makes the signal going to your sub stronger.
If this is true why do so many high end speaker companies use carpet spikes?
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post #4786 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 10:09 PM
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With a hand truck right? Or you just pushed it up the stairs?

I can tell you that since JTR uses BB ply, a sub similar in size from other companies would weigh much more.
After @chucky7 and I moved the Rythmik FV18 multiple times, the JTRs feel quite light! Like, do we really need two people. [The answer is still YES!]
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post #4787 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
Subs are both about 3 feet from the wall on opposite ends of the room. Best place I could find without compromising the rest of my system and having the tv shifted way too far to the right. I like the subs, but with the gain set around 1 - 2 and the main volume around -17 on my Denon they are working pretty hard on some movies like WoW. I guess I am afraid to push them too hard even though I know Jeff said they will basically not get any louder once they reach their max. Maybe I have more headroom than I realize since I have never had 2 subs before, but from the way the woofers are moving in and out at times they are working pretty hard. There is a compromise because I have to run the subs pretty hot to get the feedback I want, but not have the main speakers be so loud that I can't stand to watch something for very long.
Unless they start chuffing and blowing wind around the room they have more in the tank. The cone excursion is by design, not a sign you are pushing the subs hard as I doubt you are.
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post #4788 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ksmchristy View Post
If this is true why do so many high end speaker companies use carpet spikes?
Because they are high end and the carpet spikes are relatively cheap?

I hate to burst your bubble but a lot of the peripheral audio products are borderline snake oil.

In your situation, a marble slab, a concrete slap or a tile would have worked as well.
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post #4789 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 10:47 PM
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Because they are high end and the carpet spikes are relatively cheap?

I hate to burst your bubble but a lot of the peripheral audio products are borderline snake oil.

In your situation, a marble slab, a concrete slap or a tile would have worked as well.
Worked for what, if they do no good then they don't work right?
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post #4790 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ksmchristy View Post
Worked for what, if they do no good then they don't work right?
If you had used a slab of something heavy - be it wood, concrete, marble, metal, it would have worked the same way - isolated the sub from what was previously under the sub.

You know that there are companies out there selling those slabs for an obscene amount of money right?

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post #4791 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
No still haven't run rew or bought a microphone. Out of all the available positions where they are had the best impact and sound quality. I tried some other positions that would have required me to remove a piece of furniture and there was hardly any impact - the sound was clean but very little impact. Frankly I was surprised at some of the positions I tried the rumble just wasn't there/floor shaking just wasn't as good. Maybe I am sitting directly on top of a floor joist now and that is why I can feel the bass so much. How much can I hope to gain by running rew over level matching and then running Audyssey?

Potentially, huge gains. But then it is possible you will gain very little. Without measuring you will never know. I have had times I ran Audyessy and it has a very big dip from 60-100hz either from Audyessy doing something weird or my mic placement issue because rerunning Audyssey would fix the issue that I would not have known about otherwise. Also most of the time Audyessy will not get the sub distance optimal so you will have a dip around your crossover frequency of your subwoofer to mains. https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x76z07se4...02013.pdf?dl=0

You need to measure using REW and then do the sub distance tweak. You have how many thousand in audio gear. You are leaving so much unknown by not getting a $100 mic and actually seeing what is going on. After getting one I can see this is the best tool you can have and anything that is even halfway serious about good sound is leaving a lot to guesswork to what is actually going on with their sound. I would get the Umik-1 from Amazon or Parts Express.

So nice too because you can see what every change you make actually does instead of just relying on your hearing alone which is not very reliable. Not to say don't go by what you hear but use both together.

Edit I am adding an REW graph so you can see the FR and how much of a difference it can make. This is an old sweep with Dynamic EQ on that is why it has such a house curve to it. But you can see the difference doing the post-Audyessy sub distance setting can make and without a mic, I would have no way of knowing.
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post #4792 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
If you had used a slab of something heavy - be it wood, concrete, marble, metal, it would have worked the same way - isolated the sub from what was previously under the sub.

You know that there are companies out there selling those slabs for an obscene amount of money right?
I paid $50 for a nice, heavy, piece of black polished granite. It actually looks better than the sub sitting on my thick carpet and I was curious if anyone had actually done any measurements with spikes or decoupling materials vs. none. When my umik 1 shows up I will do some experimenting for myself. I found this statement in another post. Carpet is essentially transparent at bass frequencies; it will allow the sub to "float" over a floor thus potentially allowing greater vibration of the cabinet than if the sub was solidly anchored or decoupled from the floor.
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post #4793 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ksmchristy View Post
I paid $50 for a nice, heavy, piece of black polished granite. It actually looks better than the sub sitting on my thick carpet and I was curious if anyone had actually done any measurements with spikes or decoupling materials vs. none. When my umik 1 shows up I will do some experimenting for myself. I found this statement in another post. Carpet is essentially transparent at bass frequencies; it will allow the sub to "float" over a floor thus potentially allowing greater vibration of the cabinet than if the sub was solidly anchored or decoupled from the floor.
It has been done with speakers http://ethanwiner.com/speaker_isolation.htm I am not sure if anyone has measured using a subwoofer only but I would like to see if you do it the results. I don't think there will be any difference but I find trying things like that interesting.

Plus that way when people ask you can show them proof of what you found. Another reason I think everyone should have a mic. Instead of taking people's word for what will happen when you do this or that you can try it yourself and measure and see what happens. Trust, but verify

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post #4794 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ksmchristy View Post
I paid $50 for a nice, heavy, piece of black polished granite. It actually looks better than the sub sitting on my thick carpet and I was curious if anyone had actually done any measurements with spikes or decoupling materials vs. none. When my umik 1 shows up I will do some experimenting for myself. I found this statement in another post. Carpet is essentially transparent at bass frequencies; it will allow the sub to "float" over a floor thus potentially allowing greater vibration of the cabinet than if the sub was solidly anchored or decoupled from the floor.
That is not a bad price at all. Please measure and let us know what you find.

Below is what I was talking about... like I am going to put a $2000 speaker on a $1500+ base...


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #4795 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:46 PM
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For those on hardwood floors, what are you putting if anything under your sub?
I currently have foam furniture sliders because it is new and I will be playing around with placement.
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post #4796 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:54 PM
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Potentially, huge gains. But then it is possible you will gain very little. Without measuring you will never know. I have had times I ran Audyessy and it has a very big dip from 60-100hz either from Audyessy doing something weird or my mic placement issue because rerunning Audyssey would fix the issue that I would not have known about otherwise. Also most of the time Audyessy will not get the sub distance optimal so you will have a dip around your crossover frequency of your subwoofer to mains. https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x76z07se4...02013.pdf?dl=0

You need to measure using REW and then do the sub distance tweak. You have how many thousand in audio gear. You are leaving so much unknown by not getting a $100 mic and actually seeing what is going on. After getting one I can see this is the best tool you can have and anything that is even halfway serious about good sound is leaving a lot to guesswork to what is actually going on with their sound. I would get the Umik-1 from Amazon or Parts Express.

So nice too because you can see what every change you make actually does instead of just relying on your hearing alone which is not very reliable. Not to say don't go by what you hear but use both together.

Edit I am adding an REW graph so you can see the FR and how much of a difference it can make. This is an old sweep with Dynamic EQ on that is why it has such a house curve to it. But you can see the difference doing the post-Audyessy sub distance setting can make and without a mic, I would have no way of knowing.
I guess the part I am missing is that even if REW identifies you have a hole in the frequency and you move the sub around to fill that hole how is that going to help Audyssey with the problems you mentioned? Plus my AVR does not account for 2 separate subs - sends same signal to both. I am waiting to get another AVR when I decide on a 4K TV.

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post #4797 of 13733 Old 07-12-2017, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
For those on hardwood floors, what are you putting if anything under your sub?
I currently have foam furniture sliders because it is new and I will be playing around with placement.
I also have furniture sliders under my sub on carpet.

I recommend EVA foam interlocking mat or anti-fatigue mat. You can get them from Costco. Why Costco? because of their awesome return policy.

Mark Seaton has recommend something that basically is a thicker and bigger mouse pad.

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FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #4798 of 13733 Old 07-13-2017, 12:02 AM
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I guess the part I am missing is that even if REW identifies you have a hole in the frequency and you move the sub around to fill that hole how is that going to help Audyssey with the problems you mentioned?
There is only so much Room correction program such as Audyssey can do. It cannot correct a 40 dB dip. It is always easier to pull down a peak than to pull up a dip.

By doing the FR with REW, you can locate the best locations for your subs - ones that will give you the flattest FR. Then it will be easier for Audyssey to make it ruler flat, if this is what you need.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #4799 of 13733 Old 07-13-2017, 12:16 AM
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I guess the part I am missing is that even if REW identifies you have a hole in the frequency and you move the sub around to fill that hole how is that going to help Audyssey with the problems you mentioned? Plus my AVR does not account for 2 separate subs - sends same signal to both. I am waiting to get another AVR when I decide on a 4K TV.
You do not need an AVR with separate sub output to get the benefit of REW. You will not actually physically move the subwoofer. You increase the distance setting and that time and phase align the subs and speakers and improve your FR if you have a dip/cancellation in the FR.

Ideally, you would first turn off Audyssey and then move the sub or subs around the room and try to get the smoothest FR. Then run Audyssey, then run REW and look at your FR and most of the time you need to increase to subwoofer distance in your AVR settings increasing it by 1-2ft and taking another REW sweep. Keep increasing the sub distance until you get the smoothest FR from 10-200hz.
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post #4800 of 13733 Old 07-13-2017, 12:28 AM
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Using a Y RCA cable will double the signal into the amp, making it louder at a given gain setting. But realistically, if you are only using a single input (L or R) can't you just bump up the gain to make it just as loud as when both L and R inputs are receiving a signal?

In other words, there is zero benefit to using a Y cable assuming you can get an acceptable sub volume level using a single input.

In my case, the gain is set to about the 1/4 level. With both inputs connected, I'd have turn it back to 1/8 to balance the bass, negating any benefit of connecting both inputs...

The only time you need a Y cable and connection to both inputs is if your AVR/pre-pro has an unusually low output on the sub channel and you are near max on the sub gain setting.
This is all alien to me. I only have a dual LFE out from my AVR. Are you guys using L and R from your coax outs to connect the sub?? I thought using the LFE channel was the default way to go???

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