Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 161 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4801 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by fastninja76 View Post
This is all alien to me. I only have a dual LFE out from my AVR. Are you guys using L and R from your coax outs to connect the sub?? I thought using the LFE channel was the default way to go???
What schwaggs said is instead of connecting the sub cable to your sub, you add an 1 female to 2 male RCA splitter like below and connect both male to your sub...

https://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-U...BWHJAQ81PM7H0R

Now, most people don't need this as the output from the AVR is strong enough. If the output from the AVR is not strong enough, the sub might go to standby mode during the quieter moments in a movie. This becomes annoying. A 1 female to 2 male RCA splitter is a remedy.

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post #4802 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
What schwaggs said is instead of connecting the sub cable to your sub, you add an 1 female to 2 male RCA splitter like below and connect both male to your sub...

https://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-U...BWHJAQ81PM7H0R

Now, most people don't need this as the output from the AVR is strong enough. If the output from the AVR is not strong enough, the sub might go to standby mode during the quieter moments in a movie. This becomes annoying. A 1 female to 2 male RCA splitter is a remedy.
Ohhhh I get it. Guess I haven't been in this game long enough to have seen these issues pop up.

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post #4803 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 05:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
For those on hardwood floors, what are you putting if anything under your sub?
I currently have foam furniture sliders because it is new and I will be playing around with placement.
Here is a very durable mousepad that is 4mm thick and huge!!! I have the smaller version that I use for my computer and these things are badass. Very sticky on the reverse side.
https://steelseries.com/gaming-mousepads/qck-xxl
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post #4804 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
For those on hardwood floors, what are you putting if anything under your sub?
I currently have foam furniture sliders because it is new and I will be playing around with placement.

I use a .5" thick NBR Yoga mat cut to size
They are usually 70" x 24" and cost about $20-$30 delivered on eBay

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives

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post #4805 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 06:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post




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Is there texture on the bottom portion of the 1400? Looks smooth where the top is not. May be just the flash of the camera, not sure.
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post #4806 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 07:31 AM
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LFE, yes the new driver's cone has a mat textured finish on it. My new S-1 has it, my old S-1 is smooth and a bit of a gloss finish.
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post #4807 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 08:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
LFE, yes the new driver's cone has a mat textured finish on it. My new S-1 has it, my old S-1 is smooth and a bit of a gloss finish.
I am talking about the actual box enclosure, not the driver. I also have the new 2017 1400s and yes, the driver dust cap is carbon fiber woven, very hard.
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post #4808 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I am talking about the actual box enclosure, not the driver. I also have the new 2017 1400s and yes, the driver dust cap is carbon fiber woven, very hard.


There is texture there. It's the angle of the light above the sub.


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post #4809 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I am talking about the actual box enclosure, not the driver. I also have the new 2017 1400s and yes, the driver dust cap is carbon fiber woven, very hard.
No i was talking about the driver material not the dust cap lol. I'm sure the box finish you see is likely the camera or flash. I cant imagine Jeff sending anything out if the appearance was how that photo looks.
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post #4810 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 08:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
No i was talking about the driver material not the dust cap lol. I'm sure the box finish you see is likely the camera or flash. I cant imagine Jeff sending anything out if the appearance was how that photo looks.
I actually like the smooth look if that can be done on the whole sub.
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post #4811 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 08:35 AM
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Don't tell me you moved this monstrosity up the stairs by yourself
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Almost by myself. Probably a mistake. Feel sick now.
Holy cow, you are all man! When I saw that the shipping weight of each of my Rythmik FV18s was 190 pounds, I hired a moving company who sent a crew to unbox them and put them in position in my HT room. It was the best money I ever spent.
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post #4812 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
Subs are both about 3 feet from the wall on opposite ends of the room. Best place I could find without compromising the rest of my system and having the tv shifted way too far to the right. I like the subs, but with the gain set around 1 - 2 and the main volume around -17 on my Denon they are working pretty hard on some movies like WoW. I guess I am afraid to push them too hard even though I know Jeff said they will basically not get any louder once they reach their max. Maybe I have more headroom than I realize since I have never had 2 subs before, but from the way the woofers are moving in and out at times they are working pretty hard. There is a compromise because I have to run the subs pretty hot to get the feedback I want, but not have the main speakers be so loud that I can't stand to watch something for very long.
Hi Kick,

Its a learning process. You have to take some time to get used to sooooo much bass. At first it can seem like an overwhelming amount. But as you settle in and your ears become more attuned to what you are hearing. You will have many moments of (Oh, I see) Don't rush it, this is the best part of getting accustomed to REAL Bass! Enjoy the ride and understand you are learning how to play a Subwoofer like one learns how to play a Piano. Excited to hear your coming revelations and discoveries.
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post #4813 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 09:13 AM
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Holy cow, you are all man!

Lol. My back tells me otherwise this morning!



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post #4814 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
For those on hardwood floors, what are you putting if anything under your sub?
I currently have foam furniture sliders because it is new and I will be playing around with placement.
Hi Curves,

While I don't have wood floors, I have hard tiles. I used the SVS Sub Isolator feet.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NCSQ5GK...a-307041973422

For me, they work great. On the 2400 the hardware provided was not the same thread size. However, I just slipped the bolt from the existing feet into the SVS Isolators and that worked perfect.

The decoupling effect in my case was pretty decent improvement. Since I have hard tile on top of concrete slab. I wanted to decouple the subs from that gigantic vibration sink. Some will argue there is no benefit. That's ok, to each their own. In my case I actually achieved a 2-3db decrease in sub trim to achieve the same SPL at Primary Seating locations. I also perceived an increase of tactile energy.

I do have some background in sound isolation design and engineering. As well as Vibration Analysis and dampening. The same engineering concepts and principals apply. If you have a mechanical component (Sub motor), that vibrates and makes noise (Sub Enclosure), in a vessel (House/Floor) and you want to dampen the transfer of sound and vibration energy transfer. You install vibration mitigation mounts and or apparatus. The benefits are two fold. You reduce the amount of energy (in this case Sound) that is transferred to the other side of said vessel (floor/House). By reducing the transfer of energy, it remains in the room as "Sound" energy versus being transferred into the floors as vibrations.

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post #4815 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
You do not need an AVR with separate sub output to get the benefit of REW. You will not actually physically move the subwoofer. You increase the distance setting and that time and phase align the subs and speakers and improve your FR if you have a dip/cancellation in the FR.

Ideally, you would first turn off Audyssey and then move the sub or subs around the room and try to get the smoothest FR. Then run Audyssey, then run REW and look at your FR and most of the time you need to increase to subwoofer distance in your AVR settings increasing it by 1-2ft and taking another REW sweep. Keep increasing the sub distance until you get the smoothest FR from 10-200hz.
bscool,

Excellent explanation on how to use REW as a tool on how to tweak your Subs settings. I think sometimes people misunderstand the REW itself will make corrections. When we know REW itself does noting more than show us visually and graphically what the sound in our measured room looks like. We then use this visual aid to make minuet adjustments to the controls on the Sub and AVR to minimize large dips and peaks. Helps us achieve a flatter Frequency Response curve.

Audyssey is a sophisticated multi point graphic equalizer. Remember the old days when we used graphic equalizers that looked like this:

Name:  eq.bmp
Views: 265
Size:  148.0 KB

Same concept. You would move these levers up and down to try to reduce peaks and dips caused by the room acoustics. Essentially what these were are Frequency zone trims. Much like how you have Channel Level Trims on you AVR. Except this eq is done in the Frequency domain. When you move a lever (or Audyssey does) above the middle flat baseline, you are boosting that Frequency, or adding power to it. If you go below, you are taking away power from the Frequency range. This effects how loud we hear content at each adjusted frequency. Similar in concept, to how you try to use an SPL Rat Shack Meter to level match each channel.

When Audyssey attempts to fix a peak in the measured room Frequency Response results, it pulls energy/power away from that specific frequency range. Conversely to fix a dip in the range, Audyssey adds power/energy. That's why you hear people say "Its easier to fix a spike or peak than it is to fix a dip" Because you have a limited amount of energy/power to distribute across the entire Frequency Range. Boosting in too many areas of the FR and you run out of reserve energy.

I hope this is helpful in understanding how Audyssey works in concert with REW and manual tweaks.
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post #4816 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
For those on hardwood floors, what are you putting if anything under your sub?
I currently have foam furniture sliders because it is new and I will be playing around with placement.
I am frugal so I always look for cheap solutions...

Costco has something similar to the following for $9.99, 9 of 24" by 24" by 1/2" thick.

https://www.amazon.com/BalanceFrom-P...=EVA+floor+mat

You can easily trim it to the footprint of a Cap 118HT/1400.

I am so glad that we have these during many testing sessions that Marc and I had.
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post #4817 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^This thread does have many "awesome" :-) discussions & posts, doesn't it? Love it.

Where is @imureh ? The suspense is too much for me . JK. I will admit if it were me I might just keep one of each (Seaton & JTR) and play around with them long term. Both are the very best and are my top two choices for subwoofers, actually I had planned on getting Seaton for the longest time and switched to JTR in the last minute because it's the only ported 18 incher at less than $2000 in the take-no-prisoner class. (Personally preferred ported for movies.)

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
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post #4818 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
bscool,

Excellent explanation on how to use REW as a tool on how to tweak your Subs settings. I think sometimes people misunderstand the REW itself will make corrections. When we know REW itself does noting more than show us visually and graphically what the sound in our measured room looks like. We then use this visual aid to make minuet adjustments to the controls on the Sub and AVR to minimize large dips and peaks. Helps us achieve a flatter Frequency Response curve.

Audyssey is a sophisticated multi point graphic equalizer. Remember the old days when we used graphic equalizers that looked like this:

Attachment 2233817

Same concept. You would move these levers up and down to try to reduce peaks and dips caused by the room acoustics. Essentially what these were are Frequency zone trims. Much like how you have Channel Level Trims on you AVR. Except this eq is done in the Frequency domain. When you move a lever (or Audyssey does) above the middle flat baseline, you are boosting that Frequency, or adding power to it. If you go below, you are taking away power from the Frequency range. This effects how loud we hear content at each adjusted frequency. Similar in concept, to how you try to use an SPL Rat Shack Meter to level match each channel.

When Audyssey attempts to fix a peak in the measured room Frequency Response results, it pulls energy/power away from that specific frequency range. Conversely to fix a dip in the range, Audyssey adds power/energy. That's why you hear people say "Its easier to fix a spike or peak than it is to fix a dip" Because you have a limited amount of energy/power to distribute across the entire Frequency Range. Boosting in too many areas of the FR and you run out of reserve energy.

I hope this is helpful in understanding how Audyssey works in concert with REW and manual tweaks.
This is a good explanation, as was the earlier explanation of the potential effects of decoupling. I hope that Adam won't mind if I expand on his Audyssey explanation a little. Audyssey's creator points out that unlike older graphic equalizers that affected the frequency response at the source, Audyssey makes corrections in both the frequency domain and the time domain because it measures and corrects for frequencies at the main listening position. So, to some extent at least, it can influence the effects of room modes and room reflections. Unlike a graphic equalizer, it makes those corrections automatically, so the more that we can do to present the EQ software with a favorable room condition, the better. Sub (and speaker) placement, and other factors can help with that, as can distance tweaking and other measures, post-Audyssey.

With respect to fixing peaks and dips, the Audyssey software is capable of adding 9db of boost to a dip, but has the ability to reduce a peak by up to 24db. One of the reasons for that disparity is the additional power required to boost dips, as Adam pointed out. The other reason is that where severe cancellation is involved--for a room null--no amount of boost will influence the null. Nulls show up on FR graphs as very deep V-shaped dips. They can easily be 30 or 40db deep, but are typically pretty narrow in width. More normal dips in frequency response tend to be shallower and have more rounded outlines. Audyssey can help with dips (up to 9db deep) but can't help at all with genuine nulls.

Edit: I decided to add to my post by saying that Audyssey can't really tell the difference between a dip and a null. Or, if it can, there is no evidence that the software reacts differently. So, in a situation where a sub is chuffing, for instance, it is conceivable that Audyssey is adding boost to a dip, or a null, in a way that adversely impacts the available headroom of the sub. That's one of several reasons why good initial sub placement can be important, not just with respect to general frequency response, but with respect to subwoofer headroom as well. Like any tool, Audyssey is primarily useful when properly employed.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-13-2017 at 10:59 AM.
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post #4819 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 11:12 AM
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^^^This thread does have many "awesome" :-) discussions & posts, doesn't it? Love it.

Where is @imureh ? The suspense is too much for me . JK. I will admit if it were me I might just keep one of each (Seaton & JTR) and play around with them long term. Both are the very best and are my top two choices for subwoofers, actually I had planned on getting Seaton for the longest time and switched to JTR in the last minute because it's the only ported 18 incher at less than $2000 in the take-no-prisoner class. (Personally preferred ported for movies.)
Just got really busy. Will try and play with it later today and then out for the weekend.... will provide first impressions...
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post #4820 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I am frugal so I always look for cheap solutions...

Costco has something similar to the following for $9.99, 9 of 24" by 24" by 1/2" thick.

https://www.amazon.com/BalanceFrom-P...=EVA+floor+mat

You can easily trim it to the footprint of a Cap 118HT/1400.

These are very useful during many testing sessions that Marc and I had.
If ya want cheap? An excellent and in some respects better solution. Use sand bags (or other derived design). Sand bags will provide about the best inert isolator. I guess there are so many ways to do this. Get creative, as long as what you use does not itself become a Vibration/Sound conductor, your good.

I saw a guy use one of those large Dog Bed things. Worked like a charm.

Can,

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post #4821 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
This is a good explanation, as was the earlier explanation of the potential effects of decoupling. I hope that Adam won't mind if I expand on his Audyssey explanation a little. Audyssey's creator points out that unlike older graphic equalizers that affected the frequency response at the source, Audyssey makes corrections in both the frequency domain and the time domain because it measures and corrects for frequencies at the main listening position. So, to some extent at least, it can influence the effects of room modes and room reflections. Unlike a graphic equalizer, it makes those corrections automatically, so the more that we can do to present the EQ software with a favorable room condition, the better. Sub (and speaker) placement, and other factors can help with that, as can distance tweaking and other measures, post-Audyssey.

With respect to fixing peaks and dips, the Audyssey software is capable of adding 9db of boost to a dip, but has the ability to reduce a peak by up to 24db. One of the reasons for that disparity is the additional power required to boost dips, as Adam pointed out. The other reason is that where severe cancellation is involved--for a room null--no amount of boost will influence the null. Nulls show up on FR graphs as very deep V-shaped dips. They can easily be 30 or 40db deep, but are typically pretty narrow in width. More normal dips in frequency response tend to be shallower and have more rounded outlines. Audyssey can help with dips (up to 9db deep) but can't help at all with genuine nulls.

Edit: I decided to add to my post by saying that Audyssey can't really tell the difference between a dip and a null. Or, if it can, there is no evidence that the software reacts differently. So, in a situation where a sub is chuffing, for instance, it is conceivable that Audyssey is adding boost to a dip, or a null, in a way that adversely impacts the available headroom of the sub. That's one of several reasons why good initial sub placement can be important, not just with respect to general frequency response, but with respect to subwoofer headroom as well. Like any tool, Audyssey is primarily useful when properly employed.

Regards,
Mike
Mike,

Never need to feel the need to ask if its ok to add to ANYTHING I say! You are hereby, by the powers vested upon me by the Great State of "Imprecise", assigned and entrusted with editorial rights to any and all posts I my or may not submit, now and in perpetuity.

For without a fragment of a doubt. You always provide valuable insight, precision and clarity to what I was attempting to say. Thank you for that my Friend!
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post #4822 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I am frugal so I always look for cheap solutions...

Costco has something similar to the following for $9.99, 9 of 24" by 24" by 1/2" thick.

https://www.amazon.com/BalanceFrom-P...=EVA+floor+mat

You can easily trim it to the footprint of a Cap 118HT/1400.

I am so glad that we have these during many testing sessions that Marc and I had.
I have some of these in m garage
I got mine from Harbor Freight
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post #4823 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 12:40 PM
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While I don't have wood floors, I have hard tiles. I used the SVS Sub Isolator feet.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NCSQ5GK...a-307041973422

For me, they work great. On the 2400 the hardware provided was not the same thread size. However, I just slipped the bolt from the existing feet into the SVS Isolators and that worked perfect.
The 2400 has threads for feet?
I thought all the JTR subs did not have any. My 118 does not.
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post #4824 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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The 2400 has threads for feet?
I thought all the JTR subs did not have any. My 118 does not.
Curves,

Hell I really don't know the answer. I know my 2400ULF had feet. Four of them each. However, I will wager that JTR Encyclopedia Chucky will be along shorty to properly inform us about feet!

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post #4825 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
The 2400 has threads for feet?
I thought all the JTR subs did not have any. My 118 does not.
The short 2400ULF did however the tall 2400ULF doesn't since many people will lay them.
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post #4826 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 01:47 PM
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The short 2400ULF did however the tall 2400ULF doesn't since many people will lay them.
Jeff,

Allow me to guide you here. The word "short" has a negative attachment to it. Not a word in any sense of the meaning I associate with the 2400Ulf. No Sir, just not a fitting term.

We have hence forth dubbed the 2400's as either:

A) Low Rider
B) Tall Boy

Kindly refrain from using the word "short" and 2400ULF in the same sentance.

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post #4827 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
The 2400 has threads for feet?
I thought all the JTR subs did not have any. My 118 does not.
The reason the Cap 2400 ULF Long has feet is because there is only 1 way to put it.

Cap 2400 ULF Tall, Cap 1400 or Cap 118HT do not because people might lay them side ways.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #4828 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Just got really busy. Will try and play with it later today and then out for the weekend.... will provide first impressions...
Yawn~~~

Gosh, it's so slow here at work...

If I don't see your first impression, I am gonna fall asleep at work...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #4829 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 04:35 PM
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Well, I have it up and running. Not sure what is going on yet. All settings look good and I am running Audyssey each time I switch the subs but I am not being blown away by the Cap yet. I have not done any measurements yet to see if I am getting any cancellations but right now the Submersive sounds better to me. The tactile feel is slightly higher on the Cap. May be the sealed sub is benefiting from the room gain more than the ported. The other thing is the bass is more apparent when I sit in front of the driver/port which is not going to be the case in my room as they will be on each side of the room. I will also put it on its side and see. Also I may need to now spend some time just listening to the Cap as I did with the Submersives. I knew this was not going to be easy.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #4830 of 13745 Old 07-13-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Yawn~~~

Gosh, it's so slow here at work...

If I don't see your first impression, I am gonna fall asleep at work...


See above.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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