Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 164 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4891 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Woah... something happened for your Cap 1400... Is the Cap 1400 at the same spot?

The Submersive sweep looks the same.

Please level match the Cap 1400 with the LF Adjust @ 1/4. Then run sweeps with LF Adjust @ max and @ 12 o'clock.
Here are the sweeps

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post #4892 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 09:46 PM
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Well, so far imureh is only running FR sweeps... Wait till he runs output compressions...

From 16 Hz to 32 Hz, the ported sub should have 8 to 12 dB more output. Besides, the Cap 1400 is known for its output but Seaton Submersive is not. We should see much more difference.

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post #4893 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Here are the sweeps

What is that @ 55 Hz?

Can you run one now with the Submersive at the same spot as the Cap 1400? It looks like its FR is run from a different spot.

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post #4894 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
What is that @ 55 Hz?

Can you run one now with the Submersive at the same spot as the Cap 1400? It looks like its FR is run from a different spot.


They are exactly in the same spot. Just remember that the submersive is dual opposed, so it could be picking up some boundary gain from the corner but that to me would be an advantage of the submersive in my room.


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post #4895 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Here are the sweeps


imureh, if you don't mind would you please do one more thing: turn the Submersive sideways so that the rear driver doesn't face the corner and remeasure. Bring it out towards the middle so neither driver is so close to a border (like the right wall).

It's mainly for my education, but it would tell you too whether corner/boundary loading is responsible for that big 8 dB peak at 7-12 Hz. Not to suggest that you listen this way, although you may choose to.

Your graph btw is a wonderful illustration of sealed subwoofer and room gain. I am just wondering if you are tacking on corner loading as well, or it's some kind of room mode that is responsible for that lump.

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post #4896 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
imureh, if you don't mind would you please do one more thing: turn the Submersive sideways so that the rear driver doesn't face the corner and remeasure. Bring it out towards the middle so neither driver is so close to a border (like the right wall).

It's mainly for my education, but it would tell you too whether corner/boundary loading is responsible for that big 8 dB peak at 7-12 Hz. Not to suggest that you listen this way, although you may choose to.

Your graph btw is a wonderful illustration of sealed subwoofer and room gain. I am just wondering if you are tacking on corner loading as well, or it's some kind of room mode that is responsible for that lump.
I moved it away and drivers now face side walls and centered in room parallel to shelf

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post #4897 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I moved it away and drivers now face side walls and centered in room parallel to shelf

Something happened to the Cap 1400 as its FR looked way better here:


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post #4898 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:06 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Something happened to the Cap 1400 as its FR looked way better here:



The only thing that changed was the level matching I did to get then AVR MV to zero. Not sure why that would causes a change in the response.
Actually both subs responses changed for the worse

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post #4899 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
They are exactly in the same spot. Just remember that the submersive is dual opposed, so it could be picking up some boundary gain from the corner but that to me would be an advantage of the submersive in my room.


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Yep there is an advantage, and it is an impressive one, but this 0-15 Hz advantage may NOT be what you are looking for. If you are looking for that overwhelming sensation of punch in the chest, etc., which I thought you were, then 15-35 is IMHO more important, especially for blockbuster movies. This is the start of the "mid bass" range that you mentioned led to selection of Submersive over F18.

The last step is level match, which I believe Chucky is helping you, then listen. Don't just use Tron - War of the Worlds, San Andreas, and Incredible Hulk are some classics that IMHO should be part of test.
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Last edited by cannga; 07-13-2017 at 10:14 PM.
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post #4900 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Yep there is an advantage, and it is an impressive one, but this 0-15 Hz may NOT be what you are looking for. If you are looking for that overwhelming sensation of punch in the chest, etc., which I thought you were, then 15-35 is IMHO more important, especially for blockbuster movies. This is the "mid bass" that you mentioned led to selection of Submersive over F18.



The last step is level match, which I believe Chucky is helping you, then listen. Don't just use Tron - War of the Worlds, San Andreas, and Incredible Hulk are some classics that IMHO should be part of test.


Yes. I don't want to spend too much time measuring and reviewing graphs and not spend time to listen. I have to decide by end of next week. Today is shirt now. Did not get to see much. Probably will not get another chance till Sunday. Oh well.


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post #4901 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Yep there is an advantage, and it is an impressive one, but this 0-15 Hz advantage may NOT be what you are looking for. If you are looking for that overwhelming sensation of punch in the chest, etc., which I thought you were, then 15-35 is IMHO more important, especially for blockbuster movies. This is the "mid bass" that you mentioned led to selection of Submersive over F18.



The last step is level match, which I believe Chucky is helping you, then listen. Don't just use Tron - War of the Worlds, San Andreas, and Incredible Hulk are some classics that IMHO should be part of test.


Not sure if yo had been following but this is response Enrico help get with the duals submersive




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post #4902 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
The only thing that changed was the level matching I did to get then AVR MV to zero. Not sure why that would causes a change in the response.
Actually both subs responses changed for the worse.

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Well, the Submersive is a little worse, but the general shape is the same. For the Cap 1400, there is now a 15dB swing from 54 Hz to 58 Hz.

The submersives should be placed with the amp facing the wall, so none of the drivers should be facing the mic/MLP.

The Cap 1400 should be placed with the port/driver facing the mic/MLP.

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post #4903 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, the Submersive is a little worse, but the general shape is the same. For the Cap 1400, there is now a 15dB swing from 54 Hz to 58 Hz.


Beats me Chucky. Nothing else changed. Will try again tomorrow I guess.


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post #4904 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Yes. I don't want to spend too much time measuring and reviewing graphs and not spend time to listen. I have to decide by end of next week. Today is shirt now. Did not get to see much. Probably will not get another chance till Sunday. Oh well.


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Agreed. BTW, it's not time wasted at all (not for me anyway :-)). I think the graphs are very interesting confirmation, so thank you for the work.

I believe the Seaton has had better WAF - how about laying the 1400 sideways and put a bouquet of flowers on it for me?

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post #4905 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Agreed. BTW, it's not time wasted at all (not for me anyway :-)). I think the graphs are very interesting confirmation, so thank you for the work.



I believe the Seaton has had better WAF - how about laying the 1400 sideways and put a bouquet of flowers on it for me?


Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, the Submersive is a little worse, but the general shape is the same. For the Cap 1400, there is now a 15dB swing from 54 Hz to 58 Hz.

The submersives should be placed with the amp facing the wall, so none of the drivers should be facing the mic/MLP.

The Cap 1400 should be placed with the port/driver facing the mic/MLP.


Thank you guys for trying to help me. I want to make sure that I am not contributing anything that is keeping either of the subs not performing to its potential


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post #4906 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:33 PM
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Well, since this is for 100% movie, I want to make sure that you feel the TR, the impact, the potent port wind that I love so much from my Cap 1400.



Enough said...

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post #4907 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, since this is for 100% movie, I want to make sure that you feel the TR, the impact, the potent port wind that I love so much from my Cap 1400.



Enough said...


Absolutely. Keep the suggestions and help coming guys. I appreciate it and I enjoy learning from all the great folks on this forum. My friend Enrico as a case in point has been a great help and continues to be.


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post #4908 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Absolutely. Keep the suggestions and help coming guys. I appreciate it and I enjoy learning from all the great folks on this forum. My friend Enrico as a case in point has been a great help and continues to be.
You're quite welcome!

The FR that Enrico did with the Submersives is spectacular. Most people would kill for that FR.
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post #4909 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 11:11 PM
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I was looking at this page - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html - do I have to purchase anything other than a microphone like the umik-1? This mentions a MiniDSP 2x4?
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post #4910 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I moved it away and drivers now face side walls and centered in room parallel to shelf


So whenever you move it you are turning Audyssey off or re-running Audyssey? Because I take it those graphs are with Audyssey on?

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post #4911 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
The only thing that changed was the level matching I did to get then AVR MV to zero. Not sure why that would causes a change in the response.
Actually both subs responses changed for the worse

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I noticed that earlier, something doesn't look right. The FR should be very close unless you moved the mic maybe? Are you using a mic stand leaving it in the MLP or swinging it out of the way so it ends up in the same location every time or how are you doing it?

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post #4912 of 13441 Old 07-13-2017, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
I was looking at this page - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html - do I have to purchase anything other than a microphone like the umik-1? This mentions a MiniDSP 2x4?

No, you do not have to buy the 2x4, you can use the delay on your sub if your AVR only has 1 subwoofer out to adjust delays/distance if your subs are not equal distance from your MLP. But some people prefer(Mark Seaton I see recommend trying this) to just use 1 sub out(both sub delays @0 on the subs amp) and place them as close to equidistant from the MLP. Are yours close or far apart?

You can do a lot to improve the FR just moving the subs around the room(use furniture sliders) and taking measurements after each change and looking at the FR. A Mini DSP 2x4 can help but it is up to you. I know some people like them and others end up taking them out of their system.

Just a mic will go a long way to verifying what your FR actually looks like and not blind trust in Audyessy. If you get one and see a big dip somewhere you can fix it or improve it by placement as in actually moving the sub if you have the option or at least trying changes in subwoofer distance setting in the AVR. I know I am repeating myself, it is in case someone new hops in a thread and wonders why/how.
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post #4913 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 01:08 AM
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That's part of the problem. I have limited options to place the subwoofers. If I place the subs in the middle of the room then my center channel will be way off center. I can move the subs closer to the wall but I only have about 2 feet of room to work with. One sub is 10 feet from the MLP and the other is about 5 feet. Room is 13 wide by 18.5 in length and the wall where the mains, 1 sub, and tv is the only wall I can put them. I did look at the distance in Audyssey and it had the sub distance at 12.6 feet. I have 2 different sub outs but of course being fed the same signal. I have also received varying recommendations on adjusting the delays on the subs. One says at the distances we are talking about I don't need any delay while others say I need a small delay. I have played around with delay as well and my ears cannot tell a difference.
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post #4914 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 05:49 AM
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So whenever you move it you are turning Audyssey off or re-running Audyssey? Because I take it those graphs are with Audyssey on?


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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I noticed that earlier, something doesn't look right. The FR should be very close unless you moved the mic maybe? Are you using a mic stand leaving it in the MLP or swinging it out of the way so it ends up in the same location every time or how are you doing it?


Audyssey has been tuned off for all these measurements. I was running it earlier when I was listening to content on each sub every time I switched them out but for these REW measurements I just turned it off. I am using a boom stand and it stays in the same place for all measurements.


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post #4915 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 06:16 AM
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Yes. I don't want to spend too much time measuring and reviewing graphs and not spend time to listen. I have to decide by end of next week. Today is shirt now. Did not get to see much. Probably will not get another chance till Sunday. Oh well.


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Audyssey has been tuned off for all these measurements. I was running it earlier when I was listening to content on each sub every time I switched them out but for these REW measurements I just turned it off. I am using a boom stand and it stays in the same place for all measurements.


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Hi Ray,

Perhaps I am missing something here, Ray, but I wonder if you should really be trying to match frequency responses, or even SPL? The whole idea behind this exercise is to compare the native differences between sealed and ported in your room. And, I think it is much more a listening exercise than a measurement exercise.

To review what brought you to the purpose of making the comparison: you achieved a really excellent frequency response with dual Submersives and some expert assistance. But, as good as the FR was, you felt that there was something missing. Some quality of tactility or excitement that your memory told you that your previous ported sub provided. You described it as "impact". As I see it, part of what you are trying to discover here is whether that quality really exists in ported subs, and whether you really prefer it. And, you won't discover that from measurements of any kind. You will only discover it by pushing the Cap 1400 fairly hard and listening to find out what it's got.

So, I would recommend putting REW away now, and just concentrating on the Cap 1400 for a couple of days. Put it where it measured the best, run Audyssey, since that's how you will be listening to it and since you want to hear it at it's best, and then just play with the LFA and sub boost to discover the full capabilities of the 1400 and your reaction to those capabilities. You can always come back to the Submersive for another comparison in a few days, and it's possible that Mark might even give you another couple of days to compare them, if you are still undecided.

But, the whole point of this exercise is not to discover the ways in which the subs are equal (with level-matching for instance). The point is to discover the ways in which they are not, and whether your memory of the greater "impact" of a ported sub is correct. To do that, you will have to push the ported sub with however much boost you like, at the listening level you prefer. The 1400 should be capable of more SPL in that frequency range that Can and I have been talking about. So, run Audyssey, watch some exciting movies, and play with the sub boost to discover what it's got, and whether it provides the impact you thought you were missing with sealed subs.

I think that's what you need to be doing now. Not measuring and comparing measurements of the two subs.

Regards,
Mike

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post #4916 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Ray,

Perhaps I am missing something here, Ray, but I wonder if you should really be trying to match frequency responses, or even SPL? The whole idea behind this exercise is to compare the native differences between sealed and ported in your room. And, I think it is much more a listening exercise than a measurement exercise.

To review what brought you to the purpose of making the comparison: you achieved a really excellent frequency response with dual Submersives and some expert assistance. But, as good as the FR was, you felt that there was something missing. Some quality of tactility or excitement that your memory told you that your previous ported sub provided. You described it as "impact". As I see it, part of what you are trying to discover here is whether that quality really exists in ported subs, and whether you really prefer it. And, you won't discover that from measurements of any kind. You will only discover it by pushing the Cap 1400 fairly hard and listening to find out what it's got.

So, I would recommend putting REW away now, and just concentrating on the Cap 1400 for a couple of days. Put it where it measured the best, run Audyssey, since that's how you will be listening to it and since you want to hear it at it's best, and then just play with the LFA and sub boost to discover the full capabilities of the 1400 and your reaction to those capabilities. You can always come back to the Submersive for another comparison in a few days, and it's possible that Mark might even give you another couple of days to compare them, if you are still undecided.

But, the whole point of this exercise is not to discover the ways in which the subs are equal (with level-matching for instance). The point is to discover the ways in which they are not, and whether your memory of the greater "impact" of a ported sub is correct. To do that, you will have to push the ported sub with however much boost you like, at the listening level you prefer. The 1400 should be capable of more SPL in that frequency range that Can and I have been talking about. So, run Audyssey, watch some exciting movies, and play with the sub boost to discover what it's got, and whether it provides the impact you thought you were missing with sealed subs.

I think that's what you need to be doing now. Not measuring and comparing measurements of the two subs.

Regards,
Mike


Music to my ears Mike! I spent a lot of time yesterday measuring though I did switch the subs out between content but you are correct, I just need to listen to the 1400 now and get my ears attuned to it as I did with the Submersive. What I really wanted to land is the settings on the sub like crossover, I had it at zero since I thought the AVR should handle that but chucky advised that it should be at 120. So which one is it?

I will play around with the LFA as well but initially I thought that the dual opposed design of the submersive was benefiting with picking up some boundary gain from the front wall or something as it sounded more beefier and cleaner.


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post #4917 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 06:50 AM
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This is a good explanation, as was the earlier explanation of the potential effects of decoupling. I hope that Adam won't mind if I expand on his Audyssey explanation a little. Audyssey's creator points out that unlike older graphic equalizers that affected the frequency response at the source, Audyssey makes corrections in both the frequency domain and the time domain because it measures and corrects for frequencies at the main listening position. So, to some extent at least, it can influence the effects of room modes and room reflections. Unlike a graphic equalizer, it makes those corrections automatically, so the more that we can do to present the EQ software with a favorable room condition, the better. Sub (and speaker) placement, and other factors can help with that, as can distance tweaking and other measures, post-Audyssey.

With respect to fixing peaks and dips, the Audyssey software is capable of adding 9db of boost to a dip, but has the ability to reduce a peak by up to 24db. One of the reasons for that disparity is the additional power required to boost dips, as Adam pointed out. The other reason is that where severe cancellation is involved--for a room null--no amount of boost will influence the null. Nulls show up on FR graphs as very deep V-shaped dips. They can easily be 30 or 40db deep, but are typically pretty narrow in width. More normal dips in frequency response tend to be shallower and have more rounded outlines. Audyssey can help with dips (up to 9db deep) but can't help at all with genuine nulls.

Edit: I decided to add to my post by saying that Audyssey can't really tell the difference between a dip and a null. Or, if it can, there is no evidence that the software reacts differently. So, in a situation where a sub is chuffing, for instance, it is conceivable that Audyssey is adding boost to a dip, or a null, in a way that adversely impacts the available headroom of the sub. That's one of several reasons why good initial sub placement can be important, not just with respect to general frequency response, but with respect to subwoofer headroom as well. Like any tool, Audyssey is primarily useful when properly employed.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike, this is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing this!
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post #4918 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 06:59 AM
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You're quite welcome!

The FR that Enrico did with the Submersives is spectacular. Most people would kill for that FR.


Hi chucky, can you please confirm for me that crossover on sub should be at 120? Can you educate me why we would not let the AVR set the crossover? That is how I used to use run my SVS. Thanks.


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post #4919 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 06:59 AM
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Mike is like the "dad" of the forums, or the good advice older sibling lol


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post #4920 of 13441 Old 07-14-2017, 07:19 AM
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Mike is like the "dad" of the forums, or the good advice older sibling lol

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Thanks! But, if it's okay, let's just go with "good advice older sibling".

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