Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 165 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4921 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
That's part of the problem. I have limited options to place the subwoofers. If I place the subs in the middle of the room then my center channel will be way off center. I can move the subs closer to the wall but I only have about 2 feet of room to work with. One sub is 10 feet from the MLP and the other is about 5 feet. Room is 13 wide by 18.5 in length and the wall where the mains, 1 sub, and tv is the only wall I can put them. I did look at the distance in Audyssey and it had the sub distance at 12.6 feet. I have 2 different sub outs but of course being fed the same signal. I have also received varying recommendations on adjusting the delays on the subs. One says at the distances we are talking about I don't need any delay while others say I need a small delay. I have played around with delay as well and my ears cannot tell a difference.

With a mic you would be able to see what adding delay is actually doing, if it is improving things or making it worse. If cannot move your subs or prefer not to this is what I would recommend, someone else might have another idea or plan.

I would start by

1. get the smoothest FR using the delay on the closest sub(both subs playing) with no Audyessy

2. then I would run Audyssey and then

3. run REW and look at the FR and if there are any dips/peaks then

4. do the post-Audyssey sub distance tweak in the AVR increasing the distance and taking measurements until you get the flattest FR around the sub mains xover.

So only 4 steps, but since you haven't done it before and learning REW can seem over whelming it will take a little bit to understand it and feel at ease. Ill will help you if you want or there are other threads on here that you can post in if you need help.

Download this as it will get you started setting things up when you get your mic https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdhq72a1pu...rsion.pdf?dl=1 That is Austin Jerrys Guide and he also has an REW thread on this form. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...et-graphs.html

I would just start by reading the PDF, the thread is huge and you will get lost in it or I would I would use it to ask questions or like I said I will help if you want it. I know I was over whelmed when I first started with REW and measuring but it is not that hard once you figure it out and I still have a lot to learn but I think I have the basics down, or I hope so .

And finally, you said your room is "13 wide by 18.5 in length" and you have dual 1400s? that has to be FUN

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post #4922 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 07:44 AM
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I think I first met Jeff Permanian and Mark Seaton at SUBFEST 2011. My son had been born the day before and I excused myself from the hospital to go help run a sub shootout all day! I was actually up the night of his birth getting things setup. This was one of the first times that dual Seaton Submersives and dual Captivator 2400's (passive) were compared. It was also the first time to experience a JTR Single 8. I couldn't believe how much crystal clear output it had at high volumes!

I thought some might enjoy reading through the thread. There are lots of measurements, charts, and comments.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...-showdown.html

Here is graph from the SUBFEST all the subs with EQ:

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post #4923 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hi chucky, can you please confirm for me that crossover on sub should be at 120? Can you educate me why we would not let the AVR set the crossover? That is how I used to use run my SVS. Thanks.


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Hey imureh, you want your crossover all the way turned clock wize to where it says 120/or open. That will allow your avr to set the crossover through room correction, or if you choose a manual setting.
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post #4924 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks! But, if it's okay, let's just go with "good advice older sibling".
Or the guy you wish would be answering the phone when you call Dell technical support.

@imureh , as per IBDF and Chucky, crossover should be all the way max, to the right. You want to bypass the crossover and this is how it's done.

Put it all the way to the left cuts frequency response to 12-60 or something like that. You don't want this.

Last edited by cannga; 07-14-2017 at 07:55 AM.
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post #4925 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
With a mic you would be able to see what adding delay is actually doing, if it is improving things or making it worse. If cannot move your subs or prefer not to this is what I would recommend, someone else might have another idea or plan.

I would start by

1. get the smoothest FR using the delay on the closest sub(both subs playing) with no Audyessy

2. then I would run Audyssey and then

3. run REW and look at the FR and if there are any dips/peaks then

4. do the post-Audyssey sub distance tweak in the AVR increasing the distance and taking measurements until you get the flattest FR around the sub mains xover.

So only 4 steps, but since you haven't done it before and learning REW can seem over whelming it will take a little bit to understand it and feel at ease. Ill will help you if you want or there are other threads on here that you can post in if you need help.

Download this as it will get you started setting things up when you get your mic https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdhq72a1pu...rsion.pdf?dl=1 That is Austin Jerrys Guide and he also has an REW thread on this form. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...et-graphs.html

I would just start by reading the PDF, the thread is huge and you will get lost in it or I would I would use it to ask questions or like I said I will help if you want it. I know I was over whelmed when I first started with REW and measuring but it is not that hard once you figure it out and I still have a lot to learn but I think I have the basics down, or I hope so .

And finally, you said your room is "13 wide by 18.5 in length" and you have dual 1400s? that has to be FUN
So for #1 get the smoothest FR using the delay on the closest sub(both subs playing) with no Audyessy - are you talking about using REW and basically turn everything off in the AVR? I don't think it is using dynamic EQ now anyway.
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post #4926 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Here are the new graphs based on what you advised.

Change the Scale to 5hz to 120 or 100hz. It will make the graph clearer and we are only looking at subs not the whole FR. Surprised no one said this yet?

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post #4927 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Change the Scale to 5hz to 120 or 100hz. It will make the graph clearer and we are only looking at subs not the whole FR. Surprised no one said this yet?


Can do that Adam. The graphs are only for subs.


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post #4928 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hi chucky, can you please confirm for me that crossover on sub should be at 120? Can you educate me why we would not let the AVR set the crossover? That is how I used to use run my SVS. Thanks.
The crossover on sub should be @ the highest, and in this case, 120Hz.

Who told you that we should not the AVR set the crossover?

Usually we should let the AVR set the crossover. By this I mean that when you do the 1st stage of calibration with Audyssey, it is highly likely that it will set your speakers to large and set the crossover lower than 80 Hz (depending on the capabilities of your speakers). You should change it to small and the crossover to 80Hz.
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post #4929 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Can do that Adam. The graphs are only for subs.

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No, I use 7 Hz to 200 Hz. Since you also have a sealed sub, 5 Hz to 200 Hz is fine.

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post #4930 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
The crossover on sub should be @ the highest, and in this case, 120Hz.

Who told you that we should not the AVR set the crossover?

Usually we should let the AVR set the crossover. By this I mean that when you do the 1st stage of calibration with Audyssey, it is highly likely that it will set your speakers to large and set the crossover lower than 80 Hz (depending on the capabilities of your speakers). You should change it to small and the crossover to 80Hz.
I was referring to the LFE crossover which is set at 120. Also FYI, speakers are PSA MTM 210s so they always come back as small but I do have to raise the crossover to 80 from like 60
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post #4931 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Change the Scale to 5hz to 120 or 100hz. It will make the graph clearer and we are only looking at subs not the whole FR. Surprised no one said this yet?
I prefer it as it is. It is important to see what the subs are doing throughout the crossover region. The scale is only 5-300 Hz.
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post #4932 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 09:01 AM
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I'm pretty sure next weekend we'll get the Cap sounding much better, the way it should be. I'm gonna bring my miniDSP 2x4 HD again to switch between subwoofers on the fly. BUT, in the other hand I think the Submersive will have the advantage in the room, mostly in terms of room gain. I really wish I could help today but tomorrow is my oldest daughter baby shower and I have to cook all day This is my first grand baby #proudnonno

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post #4933 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I'm pretty sure next weekend we'll get the Cap sounding much better, the way it should be. I'm gonna bring my miniDSP 2x4 HD again to switch between subwoofers on the fly. BUT, in the other hand I think the Submersive will have the advantage in the room, mostly in terms of room gain. I really wish I could help today but tomorrow is my oldest daughter baby shower and I have to cook all day This is my first grand baby #proudnonno
Hence holding off any decisions till then....

What a cool grand dad! Many congrats Enrico. special time in your life for sure
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post #4934 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Or the guy you wish would be answering the phone when you call Dell technical support.

@imureh , as per IBDF and Chucky, crossover should be all the way max, to the right. You want to bypass the crossover and this is how it's done.

Put it all the way to the left cuts frequency response to 12-60 or something like that. You don't want this.
This is what I have always understood too. If you have a receiver capable of configuring subwoofers, us it to set the crossover frequency, not the sub(s)' crossover control.

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post #4935 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
...
Download this as it will get you started setting things up when you get your mic https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdhq72a1pu...rsion.pdf?dl=1 That is Austin Jerrys Guide and he also has an REW thread on this form. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...et-graphs.html

...
Thanks for posting this! I received my UMIK in the mail yesterday and have been playing around with it this morning. I'll be reading the 132 page "Getting started" guide today. Kind of daunting that getting started takes 132 pages!
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post #4936 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 09:54 AM
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Someone made a special request. I am happy to oblige.


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Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
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post #4937 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
Thanks for posting this! I received my UMIK in the mail yesterday and have been playing around with it this morning. I'll be reading the 132 page "Getting started" guide today. Kind of daunting that getting started takes 132 pages!
132 pages might sound many. However, a lot of them are step by step set up instructions with images and a lot of them can be skipped if you have a HDMI capable laptop or computer.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
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post #4938 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I think I first met Jeff Permanian and Mark Seaton at SUBFEST 2011. My son had been born the day before and I excused myself from the hospital to go help run a sub shootout all day! I was actually up the night of his birth getting things setup. This was one of the first times that dual Seaton Submersives and dual Captivator 2400's (passive) were compared. It was also the first time to experience a JTR Single 8. I couldn't believe how much crystal clear output it had at high volumes!

...
Here is graph from the SUBFEST all the subs with EQ:

Thanks for sharing. I assume the flat to 10 Hz curves are sealed subwoofers, and the ones that drop off from around 17 Hz down are ported?
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post #4939 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 12:01 PM
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does anyone have a picture of a S2 wrapped up as its delivered? I have a possible buyer for my S2's (price dropped ) but it seems like he's not believing they dont come in boxes.

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post #4940 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 01:30 PM
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does anyone have a picture of a S2 wrapped up as its delivered? I have a possible buyer for my S2's (price dropped ) but it seems like he's not believing they dont come in boxes.
Not an S2 but very similar sized 2400.
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post #4941 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 01:58 PM
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Not an S2 but very similar sized 2400.
Can you please stop showing more pictures....

I am trying to save up for a 4000ULF...

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post #4942 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 02:45 PM
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Yep there is an advantage, and it is an impressive one, but this 0-15 Hz advantage may NOT be what you are looking for. If you are looking for that overwhelming sensation of punch in the chest, etc., which I thought you were, then 15-35 is IMHO more important, especially for blockbuster movies. This is the start of the "mid bass" range that you mentioned led to selection of Submersive over F18.

The last step is level match, which I believe Chucky is helping you, then listen. Don't just use Tron - War of the Worlds, San Andreas, and Incredible Hulk are some classics that IMHO should be part of test.

I'm way behind in catching up on the thread so maybe this had been addressed already, but I've seen you say a couple of times that 15-35 hz is the range for punch in the chest. That's usually not the case, although if you get enough db's you can feel a frequency that low in the chest... but I don't think I've experienced that, I've just heard about it.

Instead the frequencies that you usually feel as a punch in the chest without having to crank it too loud are between 80 and as high as 200 hz give or take some on both ends.

Try a movie like Fight of the Phoenix and it's famous (avs famous anyway) plane roll scene. That seemingly very low bass when the plane is rolling is actually centered around 32 hz. Definitely not chest punching frequency, but sure a heck of a lot of fun!

Sorry if this has already been cleared up in the posts I haven't read yet.
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post #4943 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ @carp , agreed of course and thanks for correction. I was speed posting late at night and not being my usual careful self. In addition 15-35 is technically low bass, not mid bass. "Terrifying movie sound effects that make you screeeeam" would have been better choice.

Main point was that impressive 0-15 Hz gain of sealed over ported is not necessarily what imureh is looking to improve.

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post #4944 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Can you please stop showing more pictures....

I am trying to save up for a 4000ULF...
For real? Congrats.
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post #4945 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Not an S2 but very similar sized 2400.
Wait - are you guys saying the bigger JTR's like 2400 ship without a cardboard box? Just wrapped in a palette? With what?
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post #4946 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Wait - are you guys saying the bigger JTR's like 2400 ship without a cardboard box? Just wrapped in a palette? With what?
Larger subs shipped on a pallet don't really need to be in a cardboard box. Cardboard boxes are for protection against the people who handle, a.k.a. abuse them. Layers of shrink wraps with edge guards are often good enough.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
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post #4947 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I'm pretty sure next weekend we'll get the Cap sounding much better, the way it should be. I'm gonna bring my miniDSP 2x4 HD again to switch between subwoofers on the fly. BUT, in the other hand I think the Submersive will have the advantage in the room, mostly in terms of room gain. I really wish I could help today but tomorrow is my oldest daughter baby shower and I have to cook all day This is my first grand baby #proudnonno

Proud grandpa, congrats and thanks for sharing this great news. I am not close to being one yet but hoping one of these days.

We sort of prefer subwoofer pictures in this thread but baby pics are of course 100% welcome always. JK
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post #4948 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Wait - are you guys saying the bigger JTR's like 2400 ship without a cardboard box? Just wrapped in a palette? With what?
Wrapped on pallet with cardboard pieces and stretch wrap. Corners are reinforced with heavier cardboard. No boxes. Just plastic wrap and cut up box parts on corners.
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post #4949 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I'm pretty sure next weekend we'll get the Cap sounding much better, the way it should be. I'm gonna bring my miniDSP 2x4 HD again to switch between subwoofers on the fly. BUT, in the other hand I think the Submersive will have the advantage in the room, mostly in terms of room gain. I really wish I could help today but tomorrow is my oldest daughter baby shower and I have to cook all day This is my first grand baby #proudnonno
Just awesome!!!! Congrats enricoclaudio.
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post #4950 of 13409 Old 07-14-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Can you please stop showing more pictures....

I am trying to save up for a 4000ULF...
I believe he is J/K.
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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 07-14-2017 at 08:34 PM.
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