Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 178 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5311 of 13467 Old 07-28-2017, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Just got through watching World War Z and didn't know that movie was riddled w/ ULF throughout. The grenade scene was complete and utter insanity. Don't think I ever heard anything like that in all the movies that I have watched thus far. It did a sweep down to 11hz and the cap 1400's belted it out with authority throughout. There was another grenade blast before that one that shook the room, and at first I thought that was the scene and I was like DAMN!! Then the real demo scene hit and I felt like the floor was giving way in my room and definitely felt the sheer and utter power that these things are truly capable of. I don't think, IMHO, there is a specific scene out there that can compete with this.

Another movie on the agenda tonight is Skull Island 3D, it definitely has its work cut out for it, if it is to compete w/ World War Z!!!!
World War Z PvA:



It's only a 11 Hz movie. It doesn't go very low. It is not even loud. Because the grenade scene is hot it has great dynamics.

Grenade scene:



It is one of the chuffing inducing movies for me.

Kong will not make your subs chuff.
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post #5312 of 13467 Old 07-28-2017, 03:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
World War Z PvA:



It's only a 11 Hz movie. It doesn't go very low. It is not even loud. Because the grenade scene is hot it has great dynamics.

Grenade scene:



It is one of the chuffing inducing movies for me.

Kong will not make your subs chuff.
A couple of scenes that stood out is when the bus overturned earlier in the movie and when they are riding on the twin propeller military plane (the low rumble of the engines during the scenes). If I had to guess, those scenes were probably in the 15-16hz range.
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post #5313 of 13467 Old 07-28-2017, 03:55 PM
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So far at least, Edge of Tomorrow is the only film I have that has caused any kind of audio artifacts with my Rythmik FV18s. I don't own World War Z but can say that the famously loud and deep LFE in War of the Worlds produces only sweet, rumbling ultra low frequencies. Kong: Skull Island is fun but its LFE isn't in the same world as the other two.

Speaking of great LFE, I saw Dunkirk in the theater on Wednesday and its LFE was damn near a religious experience. Can hardly wait for the BD!
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post #5314 of 13467 Old 07-28-2017, 04:28 PM
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Setting up for a guys night. Kong and Dredd on for viewing. Bunch of bass virgins coming over....
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post #5315 of 13467 Old 07-28-2017, 05:14 PM
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The more I listen to the Cap 4000's the more I love them. I just finished watching Live by Night with Ben Affleck in it and I swear I felt every gun shot in that movie in my chest. Also I'm not using my near field SI HT-18's anymore, the Cap 4000's shakes my seats and floor enough. Man these subs are amazing.

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post #5316 of 13467 Old 07-28-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otismojo View Post
Setting up for a guys night. Kong and Dredd on for viewing. Bunch of bass virgins coming over....
Please make sure you have Depend at home...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #5317 of 13467 Old 07-28-2017, 10:17 PM
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They came, they saw, they shat themselves. Awesome to watch bass virgins experience the power of the Cap 4000. Most were begging to make it stop and some were asking for more. The visceral response from the ULF is funny to watch. The whoa factor was pretty high tonight. Thank you JTR!
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post #5318 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 04:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otismojo View Post
They came, they saw, they shat themselves. Awesome to watch bass virgins experience the power of the Cap 4000. Most were begging to make it stop and some were asking for more. The visceral response from the ULF is funny to watch. The whoa factor was pretty high tonight. Thank you JTR!
I don't know why, but I seem to get a lot of laughing throughout bass heavy movies when i have bass virgins over.

Also watched Kong last night, i gave the movie a 7 out of 10. The plot was just ok, my wife liked it. I think it was lacking just a tad in the bass dept., although, they did have a few good scenes. You can definitely tell that it did not go sub sonic w/ the ULF. The one scene that did stand out though
Spoiler!
I also have the original King Kong Ultimate Addition w/ Jack Black, does anyone know if they hottened up the bass in this one?

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post #5319 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 09:45 AM
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Help with Xilica XP-4080 frequency response

I need some help from the experts. Anyone using Xilica XP-2040 or 4080 to allow for delay, EQ, level adjustments for multiple subs? I currently have 4 subs (two JTR and two Seaton) that I will need to manage since my surround processor only has two sub outs (I may be buying two more JTR S1 in the near future).

The manual states frequency response only goes down to 20Hz but I am not sure if that just means that it can only EQ frequencies 20Hz and above or if it means it will cut off frequencies below 20Hz? Obviously I don't want any low frequency to be cut off.

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5/P5 in-wall
Subs: JTR Captivator subs: One S2, Two RS2, One S1
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420

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post #5320 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
I need some help from the experts. Anyone using Xilica XP-2040 or 4080 to allow for delay, EQ, level adjustments for multiple subs? I currently have 4 subs (two JTR and two Seaton) that I will need to manage since my surround processor only has two sub outs (I may be buying two more JTR S1 in the near future).

The manual states frequency response only goes down to 20Hz but I am not sure if that just means that it can only EQ frequencies 20Hz and above or if it means it will cut off frequencies below 20Hz? Obviously I don't want any low frequency to be cut off.
Hi,

In lieu of an expert, I will try to help a little. You have a very nice system! I know nothing whatsoever about your processor, but I might speculate about a couple of things. First, it is extremely unlikely that any modern AVR or processor would limit the frequencies that your system can play. It is much more likely that it simply stops EQing at 20Hz. Some systems stop EQing higher than that, so 20Hz is pretty good.

My second observation is that if the distances are roughly equal, you might want to put your three subwoofers up front and on the side walls, on one sub out, and use the second sub out for the S1 behind your listening position. That may seem counterintuitive, and I could be completely mistaken. But, I think that the front sub and the two side subs are more likely to be in phase with each other, whereas the sub behind you is highly unlikely to be in phase with the S2 on the front wall. The more logical seeming approach would be to put the Submersives on one sub out and the two JTR's on the other, and I might try it both ways. But, if you do it that way, you may have to adjust the phase control on the rear S1 after your processor sets the distance for that pair.

However your subs are configured, your processor will EQ all of the subs as one. So, how you configure the subs is mostly a matter of manipulating the distance setting and convenience with respect to making sub trim adjustments. For instance, you might want to intentionally make a rear nearfield sub play louder than other subs in your system. If you add more S1's back there, that independent volume control and distance setting would be even more useful.

I hope all of that helps a little as opposed to completely confusing both of us.

Regards,
Mike

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post #5321 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I also have the original King Kong Ultimate Addition w/ Jack Black, does anyone know if they hottened up the bass in this one?
King Kong (2005) PvA



It does have good dynamics but it is not loud, or low (24Hz).

The graph is very typical of most recent blockbuster movies... drops like a rock below 30 Hz...

Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) Graph


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
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post #5322 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I don't know why, but I seem to get a lot of laughing throughout bass heavy movies when i have bass virgins over.

Also watched Kong last night, i gave the movie a 7 out of 10. The plot was just ok, my wife liked it. I think it was lacking just a tad in the bass dept., although, they did have a few good scenes. You can definitely tell that it did not go sub sonic w/ the ULF. The one scene that did stand out though
Spoiler!
I also have the original King Kong Ultimate Addition w/ Jack Black, does anyone know if they hottened up the bass in this one?
Bingo on the LFE on the King Kong 2005 UHD HDR DTS:X MA disk! I watched it again today so that I could confirm or dispel my earlier impression that its otherwise wonderful DTS:X MA soundtrack fell a little short in the LFE department. I agree that LFE virgins don't know what we are talking about until they personally experience the kind of LFE that hits us in the chest and makes our rooms shake. The King Kong Oscar winning sound track, although wonderful in other respects, gave me far too little chest thumping and room shaking.

As long as we are on the 4K King Kong, disk, I will give a shout out for the high quality of its UHD HDR effects in its final act in a snowy 1932 midtown Manhattan. The scene with Kong and Ann atop the Empire State Building as the sun was rising over the East River and the Army Air Corps biplanes were attacking Kong was flat out thrilling. It is in the conversation for being the best UHD HDR I have yet seen. For whatever reason, I thought the UHD HDR in the first two-thirds of the picture, most of which was on the ship or on Skull Island, was significantly less effective than that of the New York scenes in its last act.

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post #5323 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by femi View Post
The more I listen to the Cap 4000's the more I love them. I just finished watching Live by Night with Ben Affleck in it and I swear I felt every gun shot in that movie in my chest. Also I'm not using my near field SI HT-18's anymore, the Cap 4000's shakes my seats and floor enough. Man these subs are amazing.

Femi
This post speaks volumes!
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post #5324 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 03:50 PM
 
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Just curious, do you guys think the new PSA S7201 can compete w/ the Cap4000? I'm not going to lie, that 7201 looks beast but the JTR drivers are in another league than PSA. But if i was a betting man, i would bet that the cap 4k has better numbers and can dig lower. JMHO. What say you? I understand its hard to compare a ported vs. a sealed, but i just don't see either sub going below 6-7 hz in a perfect scenario. However, i do see both easily in the single digits.

Now comparing it w/ the S2, I believe the PSA will produce abit better numbers. Maybe this just speaks volumes for the JTR 4000.
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post #5325 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 04:21 PM
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^^^

I think that post is right on the money. I would guesstimate that the V7201 might have about a +/- 5db output edge over the S2, due to the doubling of drivers and the larger cabinet volume. But, with respect to frequencies from about 25Hz down to a little below 10Hz, I think that the Cap 4000 will still blow away the V7201. Still, it should have fantastic low frequency output for a sealed sub.
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post #5326 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 07:34 PM
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In here, Tom said that the S7201 is more or less 2 S3601s...



Even if it performs better than the S2, it is not surprising as the PSA S7201 at $4000 shipped, costs $750 more.

The Cap 4000ULF would have about 10dB advantage below 32 Hz. That is twice as loud.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
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post #5327 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 07:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
In here, Tom said that the S7201 is more or less 2 S3601s...



Even if it performs better than the S2, it is not surprising as the PSA S7201 at $4000 shipped, costs $750 more.

The Cap 4000ULF would have about 10dB advantage below 32 Hz. That is twice as loud.
Dang, those numbers are just a butt whooping for the 7201 and this is still well above the 4000 port tune of 10hz. Saying all that and the JTR is still cheaper.
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post #5328 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Tom said that the S7201 is more or less 2 S3601s...

Even if it performs better than the S2, it is not surprising as the PSA S7201 at $4000 shipped, costs $750 more.
It is NOT better per your chart.

Quote:
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The Cap 4000ULF would have about 10dB advantage below 32 Hz. That is twice as loud.
You meant much more than twice as loud?
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post #5329 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 08:21 PM
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It is NOT better per your chart.
Well, S3600i was tested by HTR, not data-bass... so some would say that the numbers are not comparable... IIRC, some have said that Brent's numbers are inconsistent... Since S7201's numbers are derived from those of S3600, that leaves a larger margin of error. That is why I said "Even if..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
You meant much more than twice as loud?
10dB advantage is twice as loud. The Cap 4000ULF has more than double the output below 31.5Hz.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

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post #5330 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 08:57 PM
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sh333t again with the numbers, d*ck measuring contest

please lets all just use modern ways of comparing subwoofers

we dont need no hz and db

its real easy:

just 1 JTR sub digs deep, so deep, and its highly dynamic bass will blow your f*kin house down and your a55h*le neighbors will call the police

i think i'll start my own pro review site.
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post #5331 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 10:47 PM
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I started watching Interstellar and one of the very first scenes in the movie with Matthew McConaughey dreaming about flying - all I can say is I had an oh crap moment. I had to quickly turn down the volume to around -35ish because it was too brutal on my eardrums - I was already at around -24. Doesn't help that my subs are 5 clicks away from the gain being maxed out so it looks like I will be reducing the sub volume in the AVR if I ever want to get through this movie because I can hardly hear anyone talking - LOL.
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post #5332 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
I started watching Interstellar and one of the very first scenes in the movie with Matthew McConaughey dreaming about flying - all I can say is I had an oh crap moment. I had to quickly turn down the volume to around -35ish because it was too brutal on my eardrums - I was already at around -24. Doesn't help that my subs are 5 clicks away from the gain being maxed out so it looks like I will be reducing the sub volume in the AVR if I ever want to get through this movie because I can hardly hear anyone talking - LOL.
Interstellar is loud for sure. Just 1 Cap 1400 turned my HT into a vibrator...

The problem with this movie is that the dialogues are mixed rather low relative to the loud sound effect and music. The fact that Matthew McConaughey tends to mumble a lot does not help either.

I think you should have 2 sub trim settings: 1 for movies and 1 for music, maybe another one for video games.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #5333 of 13467 Old 07-29-2017, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Interstellar is loud for sure. Just 1 Cap 1400 turned my HT into a vibrator...

The problem with this movie is that the dialogues are mixed rather low relative to the loud sound effect and music. The fact that Matthew McConaughey tends to mumble a lot does not help either.

I think you should have 2 sub trim settings: 1 for movies and 1 for music, maybe another one for video games.
That movie definitely settles my mind - I don't need anything more than the cap 1400s. Anything more would just be a waste of money and detrimental to my health.
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post #5334 of 13467 Old 07-30-2017, 04:58 AM
 
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I don't need anything more than the cap 1400s. Anything more would just be a waste of money and detrimental to my health.
Said no AVS poster ever
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post #5335 of 13467 Old 07-30-2017, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, S3600i was tested by HTR, not data-bass... so some would say that the numbers are not comparable... IIRC, some have said that Brent's numbers are inconsistent... Since S7201's numbers are derived from those of S3600, that leaves a larger margin of error. That is why I said "Even if..."

10dB advantage is twice as loud. The Cap 4000ULF has more than double the output below 31.5Hz.
I'm not quite sure about the numbers either, regarding Tom's comparison of the S7201 to dual v3601's, so I had just extrapolated some frequencies where I thought that the S7201 might have some advantage over the Cap 4000. ( I believe that Tom was talking about low bass frequencies, as even S3601's would beat V3601's in the higher bass frequencies.) I concluded, as you have, that the Cap 4000 would still have a very serious SPL advantage in the low frequencies, below about 25 or 30Hz, and continuing all the way down to a little below 10Hz.

I think that the reason tvuong said that the Cap 4000 would be more than twice as loud, where it had a 10db advantage, is due to an idiosyncrasy in the way our hearing works. According to the Equal Loudness Contours, which chart human perceptions of loudness, at 1000Hz an increase in SPL of 10db is perceived as being twice as loud. That nominal doubling in volume is consistent throughout our normal hearing range of about 400Hz to 4000Hz. But, our perceptions of loudness change somewhat at both ends of the human hearing spectrum. At 30Hz and below, for instance, an increase in SPL of only about 5db is perceived as a doubling in loudness.

So, a 10db advantage in SPL from about 30Hz down would be perceived as about 4 times as loud (2 X 2). That's why even relatively small increases in SPL in the frequencies under about 30Hz can be so important, and why ported subs like the Cap 4000, can be such powerhouses. Sealed subs just can't go that low, that loud, compared to the really powerful ported subs. Of course, depending on the room and their placement in it, they can sometimes obtain enough room gain to still be more than satisfactory in those low frequencies where ported subs have the edge. Ray's (imureh) recent experience was a good example of how helpful that room gain can be in a small room and at close range.

I can't imagine how big a sealed sub would have to be to beat a Cap 4000 under about 25 or 30Hz.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-30-2017 at 05:30 AM.
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post #5336 of 13467 Old 07-30-2017, 06:23 AM
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^^^^^Using made up numbers to compare to real 3rd party testing result verified numbers? I still can't get my head around "Announcing" a New Flagship product and not providing ANY performance metrics? Just make it look cool (To some) and it will sell! Spending this kind of coin on a "prayer and a wish" is foolhardy at best. We really have no idea how this big hunk of Speaker array is going to perform. All speculation and guess work. Even the Guy who designed it, does not really know how it will perform. He has said so himself.

I don't know about anybody else, but I am going with a product that has real performance data to back it up. No comparison, because there is nothing to compare at the moment or in the foreseeable future. The Chart above is going to end up misleading people. That chart should, by all accounts, be annotated that the SPL numbers used are pure guesswork and based on zero actual testing or performance results.

On another subject. Watched Power Rangers last night. I will never get that time back! However, the Atmos track was engaging and fun. It was the only redeeming quality. Bass was good, not great, but good. *** Star rating. My recommendation. Wait for this UHD price to fall well below $20 bucks before buying. More geared for younger adolescent audience's. Zero re-watch factor! But I am an Old Curmudgeon and a harsh critic.

Happy Sunday to all.
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post #5337 of 13467 Old 07-30-2017, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Said no AVS poster ever
LFE,

I think I said basically the same thing about Dual 2400's ! It is a testament to the power and real energy produced by JTR Subs!

JTR Subs will Move You, and damn near everything else in the room!!!! Make that a Poster @chucky7
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post #5338 of 13467 Old 07-30-2017, 07:28 AM
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Cap 4000 is now responsible for my first piece of home damage. A large 3ft 30lb piece of pottery was on our fireplace mantel in the room adjacent to the theater room. It fell off and broke during my viewing of Dredd. Never heard it playing -10dB. Found it 2 days later in pieces.
Score: Cap 4000 +1 House 0
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post #5339 of 13467 Old 07-30-2017, 07:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
^^^^^Using made up numbers to compare to real 3rd party testing result verified numbers? I still can't get my head around "Announcing" a New Flagship product and not providing ANY performance metrics? Just make it look cool (To some) and it will sell! Spending this kind of coin on a "prayer and a wish" is foolhardy at best. We really have no idea how this big hunk of Speaker array is going to perform. All speculation and guess work. Even the Guy who designed it, does not really know how it will perform. He has said so himself.

I don't know about anybody else, but I am going with a product that has real performance data to back it up. No comparison, because there is nothing to compare at the moment or in the foreseeable future. The Chart above is going to end up misleading people. That chart should, by all accounts, be annotated that the SPL numbers used are pure guesswork and based on zero actual testing or performance results.
This about sums it up perfectly, people are buying this sub numbers unseen because it is "so pretty". Tom tries to say that it will top and/or compete w/ anything out there, yet he will not send to any GTGs, Databass, or any Independent 3rd party for testing and evalution. He is playing this close to the vest and for someone to do that, he doesn't believe 100% that his product will hold up against JTR, Seaton, DSS, Funk, and the like. That is like a heavyweight boxer contender talking a bunch of trash about how they can beat everyone in their weight class, but will not commit to any fights. To me that is a lot of lip service.

I like PSA and I do recommend their products w/ caution to people who don't expect a ton out of their subs and aren't hung up on true numbers. Just a lot of speculation and shrouded mystery. Anyone who uses average dbs to specify the avg. freq. response is very questionable.

Rant over!!!
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post #5340 of 13467 Old 07-30-2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by otismojo View Post
Cap 4000 is now responsible for my first piece of home damage. A large 3ft 30lb piece of pottery was on our fireplace mantel in the room adjacent to the theater room. It fell off and broke during my viewing of Dredd. Never heard it playing -10dB. Found it 2 days later in pieces.
Score: Cap 4000 +1 House 0
The first day I had the 218 in the basement the wife said that it's only a matter of time for us. I have things dialed back pretty good and level matched to my Arx / Chanes but I'll occasionally bump things up. It is kind of neat to have her b!tching about dishes in the cabinets shaking. One day in particular she was complaining that our front bay window was flexing. Only seen it do it one other time, during a tornado warning. The JTR has some output w/o being over bearing. Me do likey

AVR = Sherbourn SR-120
Speakers = 2 Arx/Chane towers(5.1), dual Arx bookshelves(1.1) as center duty +LR/RR
Subs = Dual JTR 2400's
For sale = JTR 218HT captivator https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-a...l#post58490876
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