Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 199 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5941 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 03:22 PM
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[quote=zeus33;54707146]Data-Bass hasn't tested the SB16, but here is a comparison of the SB13 to a 1400. It would take a "bunch" of SB13s to equal one 1400 in the lower frequencies. It's not a "fair" comparison, I'm just trying to give you an idea of the performance gain you could expect from going ported and to a larger driver.

+16.5 db @ 20 hz
+10.6 db @ 31.5 hz
+9.7 db @ 40 hz
+8.5 @ 50 hz
+5.6 db @ 63 hz
+3.7 db @ 80 hz

1400 = blue
SB13 = purple



Thanks zeuss33. I realize I am technically underpowered for the room with the subs I have. Funny thing is....I think the SB’s sound good but I want it to be mind blowing.

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post #5942 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
The thing I am questioning is does having your MLP at the boundary of the room (backed up against the wall in your case) push the equation to sealed of ported sounding better? Does the fact that your MLP is only 13' from your subs in such a large room impact the decision? Does the fact that your subs and MLP are on one end of the long side impact the decision? These variables all have an impact on sound quality.
Ah, I see what you are saying. Good questions, thank you, I had not considered the aspect of being up against the wall. I did question whether I should count the entire room space or just the space within my listening area so to speak. That is roughly 18x15x12. If any of the bass masters have a thought on that I would love to hear from you. I did know that REW had a virtual room, I will down load that and give it a shot. Does the ULF calculator give an idea on how much subwoofer someone should buy? Was going to use that just to see. Not sure how much I should rely on that.

Ultimately, I may just decide which ported sub to get and measure it in house even if a 1400 or 2400 vs. SB-16 is not really a fair fight. It might give me an idea if I prefer ported or sealed.

Thanks

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post #5943 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Does the ULF calculator give an idea on how much subwoofer someone should buy? Was going to use that just to see. Not sure how much I should rely on that.
The ULF calculator is a conservative guideline...meaning actual results may vary, and your actual results are often times better.

It is an estimate, so take with a grain of salt.
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post #5944 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Hi all,

It is rectangular, 18ft W x 30ft L x 12ft H so 6480^3. It also has stairwells on the right side of the room and an open hall that goes to the kitchen so it’s a pretty big open space. However, the listening area is on the short side on the left end of the room and the MLP is 13ft from the subs.

I put the dimensions into REW room sim and it looks like it gives a pretty good FR using those dimension with your seating up against the long wall. The only thing it shows that stands out to me is it drops off pretty quick at 18hz. But these sims are not 100% accurate as room construction and opening in the rooms will affect things but they can help give you an idea.

If your current duals are working well for you there is a good chance of the dual of whatever other subs you go with should work even though there will be some variances. The only way to know is to try them and measure with REW or listen see if they do it for you.
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post #5945 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
The ULF calculator is a conservative guideline...meaning actual results may vary, and your actual results are often times better.

It is an estimate, so take with a grain of salt.
Ok, good to know. I’d like to check it anyway, just to see what it says. I’ve never really considered what I should buy based on my room size. Hence the upgrade bug.

Thanks dominguez1

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post #5946 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I put the dimensions into REW room sim and it looks like it gives a pretty good FR using those dimension with your seating up against the long wall. The only thing it shows that stands out to me is it drops off pretty quick at 18hz. But these sims are not 100% accurate as room construction and opening in the rooms will affect things but they can help give you an idea.

If your current duals are working well for you there is a good chance of the dual of whatever other subs you go with should work even though there will be some variances. The only way to know is to try them and measure with REW or listen see if they do it for you.
Oh, sweet dude, thank you. Agreed, the only way I will know for sure is to listen and test in my own house.

Thanks for checking REW!

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post #5947 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
I have a good listening position but my room is almost square (not ideal) and my desire for a nice looking theater space will only allow one subwoofer placement location.
Are you sure you don’t have room? Seems like you could squeeze another one in there if you tried! Are you sure you’re trying hard enough? And honestly, how can you in your heart of hearts not have your room symmetrical?

JK, I’m egging you on.

Todd
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post #5948 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Are you sure you don’t have room? Seems like you could squeeze another one in there if you tried! Are you sure you’re trying hard enough? And honestly, how can you in your heart of hearts not have your room symmetrical?

JK, I’m egging you on.

Todd
Hehehe, like I need another voice in my head suggesting going to duals.

And yes, there is room...
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post #5949 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
Hehehe, like I need another voice in my head suggesting going to duals.

And yes, there is room...
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post #5950 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 10:04 PM
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I've been playing around with my room correction software and the S1. I set the Gain to 12 o'clock, and the LF Adjust to 9 o'clock, you can see the frequency response in the attached. The trim level set for the sub, post calibration, is -1dB, so does that mean I shouldn't raise the trim in the receiver to avoid clipping the LFE signal? But i can go crazy with the LF Adjust if I want?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Sub response 290817.pdf (181.1 KB, 42 views)
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post #5951 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
I've been playing around with my room correction software and the S1. I set the Gain to 12 o'clock, and the LF Adjust to 9 o'clock, you can see the frequency response in the attached. The trim level set for the sub, post calibration, is -1dB, so does that mean I shouldn't raise the trim in the receiver to avoid clipping the LFE signal? But i can go crazy with the LF Adjust if I want?
Do you have the UMIK-1 and use REW? It doesn't look like you do. If possible, can you post a FR showing just 5 to 200 Hz, 50dB to 100dB, and no smoothing?

As for the level settings, you can try Gain @ 1 or 2 o'clock. LF Adjust at 9 o'clock is fine. Aim for a sub level of -6dB or so. That way, post calibration, you can still add some trim to it (increase sub level) and still remain in the negative.

After that you can also adjust the LF Adjust to taste.

Since not all subs have the LF adjust, in theory, when you keep the sub level in the negative, clipping can be avoided. However, I know that the LF Adjust on my 2015 Cap 1400 is +/- 5.4dB @ 20 Hz...

Effect of my 2015 Cap 1400 LF Adjust: Blue is Boost (max) and Red is Cut (min)


At 20 Hz, I get 10.7dB more output with the LF Adjust at Boost than Cut!!!

If my sub level with the LF Adjust at 12 o'clock is -3 dB, then turning the LF Adjust to Boost will put it into the positive...
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post #5952 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Do you have the UMIK-1 and use REW? It doesn't look like you do. If possible, can you post a FR showing just 5 to 200 Hz, 50dB to 100dB, and no smoothing?

As for the level settings, you can try Gain @ 1 or 2 o'clock. LF Adjust at 9 o'clock is fine. Aim for a sub level of -6dB or so. That way, post calibration, you can still add some trim to it (increase sub level) and still remain in the negative.

After that you can also adjust the LF Adjust to taste.

Since not all subs have the LF adjust, in theory, when you keep the sub level in the negative, clipping can be avoided. However, I know that the LF Adjust on my 2015 Cap 1400 is +/- 5.4dB @ 20 Hz...

Effect of my 2015 Cap 1400 LF Adjust: Blue is Boost (max) and Red is Cut (min)


At 20 Hz, I get 10.7dB more output with the LF Adjust at Boost than Cut!!!

If my sub level with the LF Adjust at 12 o'clock is -3 dB, then turning the LF Adjust to Boost will put it into the positive...
Thanks for the reply Chucky! I do have a Umik, but cant get REW to work for some reason, it crashes the audio drivers I think, anyway have spent hours trying to get it to work without luck (on a Dell XPS13). I also have a Macbook and cant get it to work on that either, its driving me crazy!

Anyway, i will run it again with the gain set at 2 o'clock and see what trim I get.
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post #5953 of 14561 Old 08-28-2017, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Thanks for the reply Chucky! I do have a Umik, but cant get REW to work for some reason, it crashes the audio drivers I think, anyway have spent hours trying to get it to work without luck (on a Dell XPS13). I also have a Macbook and cant get it to work on that either, its driving me crazy!

Anyway, i will run it again with the gain set at 2 o'clock and see what trim I get.
Did you get the ASIO driver? http://www.asio4all.de/

Dell XPS13 should work.

Anyways, we need to focus on the region of 5 or 10Hz to 200 Hz to get a closer look.

Good luck!
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post #5954 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 07:22 AM
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Well...crap.

Thanks for the quick input. I guess its time to bust out the old 10inch HSU lol. I already sold the VTF-15. This sucks.
JMHO, looking at the extent (pics provided) of external cabinet damage, one can only speculate as to the amount of hidden internal damage as well. That sub took one hell of a fall/impact. My recommendation is not to run it at all. As doing so may be further harming internal components that may be salvageable.

There is nothing to be gained by running it in that condition except further frustration and harm to the sub. Not what you want to hear I am sure. My apologies for throwing water on this.
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post #5955 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Did you get the ASIO driver? http://www.asio4all.de/

Dell XPS13 should work.

Anyways, we need to focus on the region of 5 or 10Hz to 200 Hz to get a closer look.

Good luck!
Nice helping hand Chucky! Kudos Sir.
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post #5956 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 08:28 AM
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I'm looking for some advice on a sub upgrade. I currently have 2 HSU vf3-mk5 subs in my sealed dedicated theater room. The room is 16'x24'x10' with the MLP 17' from the screen. Tthe current subs sound really good, I get a fair amount of output and even some decent TR. The problem is when I start to push them. If I get above -10MV on my Denon I start to notice that they run out of steam on the more demanding scenes. So I would like to get something bigger but I'm not sure how big I actually need. I know, I know you can never go too big Does anyone have any experience with those HSU subs and going to a JTR? I'm thinking either the 118HT, 1400, or 2400 but I can't afford duals of any of them right now so will one be less, more, or about the same as what I have now? I'd appreciate any advice you guys can give me. Thanks
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post #5957 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 09:37 AM
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I'm looking for some advice on a sub upgrade. I currently have 2 HSU vf3-mk5 subs in my sealed dedicated theater room. The room is 16'x24'x10' with the MLP 17' from the screen. Tthe current subs sound really good, I get a fair amount of output and even some decent TR. The problem is when I start to push them. If I get above -10MV on my Denon I start to notice that they run out of steam on the more demanding scenes. So I would like to get something bigger but I'm not sure how big I actually need. I know, I know you can never go too big Does anyone have any experience with those HSU subs and going to a JTR? I'm thinking either the 118HT, 1400, or 2400 but I can't afford duals of any of them right now so will one be less, more, or about the same as what I have now? I'd appreciate any advice you guys can give me. Thanks
I recommend Hsu VTF3-MK5 quite a lot because I believe it presents the highest bang for the buck for under $900 shipped. I also think if one's budget is less than a pair of them, he should just focus on getting 1 top sub for now. I like Hsu's stock finish a lot.

Now questions for you.

- When you say "running out of steam for the more demanding scenes", what was the material and was it @ -10MV?

- What is your budget? Please don't answer "as low as possible".

- What is your goal? Reference level to what frequency? Please be reasonable here...

- Is it mostly for movies?

- How big can you go? 4000ULF (Yeah, baby!!!) or Cap S1 (Awwww... so cute)

The following is the output comparison between Hsu VTF3-MK5 and the Cap 118HT, 1400, and 2400ULF


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 08-29-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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post #5958 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I recommend Hsu VTF3-MK5 quite a lot because I believe it presents the highest bang for the buck for under $900 shipped. I also think if one's budget is less than a pair of them, he should just focus on getting 1 top sub for now. I like Hsu's stock finish a lot.

Now questions for you.

- When you say "running out of steam for the more demanding scenes", what was the material and how loud were you playing?

- What is your budget? Please don't answer "as low as possible".

- What is your goal? Reference level to what frequency? Please be reasonable here...

- Is it mostly for movies?

- How big can you go? 4000ULF (Yeah, baby!!!) or Cap S1 (Awwww... so cute)

The following is the output comparison between Hsu VTF3-MK5 and the Cap 118HT, 1400, and 2400ULF

Thanks chucky7. Here are the answers to your questions

- When I say running out of steam I mean I start to hear strange noises like the sub is distorting or bottoming out. I'm pretty new to this so it's hard to describe but it's obviously not an intended sound. The one scene I know I hit it on is in Underworld: Awakening where the huge Lycan is in the vampire lair. At the time I was at -6MV on my Denon.
- Budget is around $2500, I know the 2400 is a little bit more than 2500 so I could stretch to fit that in if need be
- Not sure exactly what my goal is other than I would like to be able to crank up the volume and not hear bad things coming from the subs. -5MV is about the loudest I've ever actually watched a movie and usually I'm closer to -15MV. Sorry, probably not what you were looking for but I'm not sure I can tell you exactly what I need.
- 100% Movies
- 2400 is as big as I can fit space wise. Although I do have a ton of vertical space so it could go taller

The chart you provided I assume is for one sub. So since I currently have 2 HSU subs in opposite corners would I just add 6DB to those numbers to get an idea of what kind of output I have today?
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post #5959 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bowlingbeeg View Post
I'm looking for some advice on a sub upgrade. I currently have 2 HSU vf3-mk5 subs in my sealed dedicated theater room. The room is 16'x24'x10' with the MLP 17' from the screen.
I previously had two Energy S12.3s (one nearfield) which were rated slightly higher than the original VTF-3s (both 12" subs). I'm sure the VTF-3.5 is a huge improvement but having a S12.3 nearfield could more than compensate. I believe an 18" JTR will take you to a new level.

I tested the JTR Cap 118HT and 1400 (2015) in the same room and I was able to fill the 7500ft³ space with great tactile response 4m from the MLP.

For smaller, SEALED rooms (≤3000ft³), I recommend the 118HT as it has a more natural roll-off to match a small room's upward sloping gain down low. Your room is on the larger side so I would recommend the 1400 or 2400. You will still benefit from the sealed room gain and likely achieve output down to 10Hz.

My downstairs is open-concept so there are large openings to other rooms. It doesn't benefit from any gain below 20Hz. I was working with Jeff to get a 2400 to test but my wife got involved. She wants to keep the 2400. I need to send Jeff a sample of the furniture she wants matched. (Note to self: send today!).
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post #5960 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 11:34 AM
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Captivator S1, 118HT, 1400, 2400ULF, 218HT, 212pro.
Any update on this testing Jeff? Summer is ending and "WINTER IS COMING"!

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Any update on this testing Jeff? Summer is ending and "WINTER IS COMING"!
I read somewhere that Ricci unexpectedly got very busy this year... That is why he has only done 2 so far this year.

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post #5962 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I previously had two Energy S12.3s (one nearfield) which were rated slightly higher than the original VTF-3s (both 12" subs). I'm sure the VTF-3.5 is a huge improvement but having a S12.3 nearfield could more than compensate. I believe an 18" JTR will take you to a new level.

I tested the JTR Cap 118HT and 1400 (2015) in the same room and I was able to fill the 7500ft³ space with great tactile response 4m from the MLP.

For smaller, SEALED rooms (≤3000ft³), I recommend the 118HT as it has a more natural roll-off to match a small room's upward sloping gain down low. Your room is on the larger side so I would recommend the 1400 or 2400. You will still benefit from the sealed room gain and likely achieve output down to 10Hz.

My downstairs is open-concept so there are large openings to other rooms. It doesn't benefit from any gain below 20Hz. I was working with Jeff to get a 2400 to test but my wife got involved. She wants to keep the 2400. I need to send Jeff a sample of the furniture she wants matched. (Note to self: send today!).
Thanks Marc ... I was looking at the chart chucky7 posted and I was thinking the 1400 or 2400 as well. It looks like the numbers for one 1400 would be pretty similar to my two HSU subs >25Hz and have more output below that(if I understand how this all works)
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post #5963 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bowlingbeeg View Post
- When I say running out of steam I mean I start to hear strange noises like the sub is distorting or bottoming out. I'm pretty new to this so it's hard to describe but it's obviously not an intended sound. The one scene I know I hit it on is in Underworld: Awakening where the huge Lycan is in the vampire lair. At the time I was at -6MV on my Denon.
Even at -6MV, your dual Hsu VTF3-MK5 shouldn't be bottoming out. It actually takes a lot to bottom out the woofers. Do you have the subs at opposite corners of the room (ie, front left and rear right), or at the front corners of the room? If it's the latter then both of them are almost 20 ft from the MLP... That could be why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlingbeeg View Post
- Budget is around $2500, I know the 2400 is a little bit more than 2500 so I could stretch to fit that in if need be

- Not sure exactly what my goal is other than I would like to be able to crank up the volume and not hear bad things coming from the subs. -5MV is about the loudest I've ever actually watched a movie and usually I'm closer to -15MV. Sorry, probably not what you were looking for but I'm not sure I can tell you exactly what I need.

- 100% Movies

- 2400 is as big as I can fit space wise. Although I do have a ton of vertical space so it could go taller
Were you looking at the 2400ULF Long? Cuz the 2400 ULF Tall is already 40" tall... It doesn't get much taller than that...

I asked your goal because you may not want the extension to 10Hz, then for 100% movies and with the sub further from you, you can get a Cap 218HT - basically a Cap 118HT +7dB across. It will give you the most output from 16 ~ 80 Hz for about $2600. Can you fit a Cap 218HT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlingbeeg View Post
-The chart you provided I assume is for one sub. So since I currently have 2 HSU subs in opposite corners would I just add 6DB to those numbers to get an idea of what kind of output I have today?
Yes. My chart is one vs one. Just add 6 dB to get what you have today. However, if your subs are on opposite corners, you might not get the full benefit of 6 dB since they are too far away from each other and thus, not mutually coupled.

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post #5964 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
I imagine it would take a fair bit, approaching Reference Level, at least in the LFE channel
There are people who don't watch their movies at reference level?

(Semi-serious here; if that's what the director intended, I'm going to go with it… )

Also, what's an MV? Just following the chuffing discussion after my less than pleasing experience with the PB-16…

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post #5965 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
There are people who don't watch their movies at reference level?

(Semi-serious here; if that's what the director intended, I'm going to go with it… )

Also, what's an MV? Just following the chuffing discussion after my less than pleasing experience with my PB-16…
MV = Main Volume

Reference level is too loud for me. I normally listen at -10dB from reference. I do like my bass at reference so I boost the bass +10dB. Make sense?
@chucky he said the 4000ULF is too deep so that probably eliminates the 218HT.
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post #5966 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:17 PM
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I have included the Cap 218HT in there for comparison...

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Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
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post #5967 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bowlingbeeg View Post
Thanks Marc ... I was looking at the chart chucky7 posted and I was thinking the 1400 or 2400 as well. It looks like the numbers for one 1400 would be pretty similar to my two HSU subs >25Hz and have more output below that(if I understand how this all works)
Yes.

1 Cap 1400 roughly equals to 2 Hsu VTF3-MK5s. In comparison, the Cap 1400 has slightly less output up top, but it has much better extension and much more output down low.
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post #5968 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
MV = Main Volume
My bad, I didn't notice that it was the poster's 1400 that was having chuffing issues.
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post #5969 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Even at -6MV, your dual Hsu VTF3-MK5 shouldn't be bottoming out. It actually takes a lot to bottom out the woofers. Do you have the subs at opposite corners of the room (ie, front left and rear right), or at the front corners of the room? If it's the latter then both of them are almost 20 ft from the MLP... That could be why.
Front corners so yeah about 20ft from MLP

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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Were you looking at the 2400ULF Long? Cuz the 2400 ULF Tall is already 40" tall... It doesn't get much taller than that...
Yeah the tall was what I was thinking if I need to go that big

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I asked your goal because you may not want the extension to 10Hz, then for 100% movies and with the sub further from you, you can get a Cap 218HT - basically a Cap 118HT +7dB across. It will give you the most output from 16 ~ 80 Hz for about $2600. Can you fit a Cap 218HT?
I don't have the depth to accommodate the 218HT otherwise I would probably be all over that

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Yes. My chart is one vs one. Just add 6 dB to get what you have today. However, if your subs are on opposite corners, you might not get the full benefit of 6 dB since they are too far away from each other and thus, not mutually coupled.
ok, that's what I thought, thanks
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post #5970 of 14561 Old 08-29-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlingbeeg View Post
Front corners so yeah about 20ft from MLP

Yeah the tall was what I was thinking if I need to go that big

I don't have the depth to accommodate the 218HT otherwise I would probably be all over that

ok, that's what I thought, thanks
Then get a Cap 1400 or a Cap 2400ULF.
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AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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