Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 232 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6931 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Ifyou are only using the VTF-15H MK2 at 25% capacity, the Cap 1400 won't soundlike 2 VTF-15H MK2s under the same condition.



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Originally Posted by Acaps View Post
OK.......just placed my order for the Cap 1400 in walnut veneer finish. This baby is going in the living room so had to make the wife happy as well......the black was a tad on the industrial side for our living room. Going to try and sell my HSU VTF15H MK2 locally, hopefully I can find a buyer to off-set some of the cost. Buying audio equipment unseen and unheard is always a tad un-nerving, but from all the reading I've done, the Cap 1400 sounds like it'll be a significant upgrade over my HSU (hopefully). Now the waiting begins..........
Hey, been a couple weeksand was curious if you've had a chance to compare the Cap 1400 performance toyour HSU VTF-15H MK2?



We have a similar livingroom size as well as having just a single HSU VTF-15H MK2. From what chuck7said above, what can you say the differences are between the 2 subs? Notice anyextra mid-bass? Does it sound fuller, etc?


Thx
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post #6932 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Alright. Fair enough.

Do the following experiment:
1. Put the yellow pages or a thick book on your mattress then punch down on the yellow pages.
2. Put a rolled up sleeping bag on your mattress then punch down on the sleeping bag.

Which makes your mattress shake more?

You will find that the sleeping bag absorbed most of the force from your punch. Therefore, very little of your punch was transferred to your mattress. The sleeping bag isolated the mattress from your punch!
That is not the best example. You must keep in mind that the majority of floor vibrations from subs are not propagating from the sub box vibrating the floor... they are sympathetic vibrations from the subwoofer pressurizing the room. 90% of floor vibrations are due to this. To make a perfect point, none of my subs vibrate at all, as they are all of a dual opposed design. I could set a full glass of wine on top of one and run the system at full tilt and not spill a drop...but if you stand upstairs on the second floor, directly above my front stage wall (My subs are on concrete slab below, not mounted to the ceiling or screen wall), the floor will bounce like a trampoline, but they subs are not even connected in any way to them. The floor vibrates from the displacement of the subs system putting pressure on the room or "capsule" below, just like if you were blow more air into a baloon, then suck it out, then blow it back up again over and over several times per second.
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post #6933 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Lorderl View Post
Hey, been a couple weeksand was curious if you've had a chance to compare the Cap 1400 performance toyour HSU VTF-15H MK2?

We have a similar livingroom size as well as having just a single HSU VTF-15H MK2. From what chuck7said above, what can you say the differences are between the 2 subs? Notice anyextra mid-bass? Does it sound fuller, etc?

Thx
JTR subs with custom finish usually take about 2~4 weeks longer to make. I don't think Acaps has received his sub yet.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #6934 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 12:04 PM
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On this vibration issue, with a typical single driver subwoofer design (not the dual opposed design), the movement of the driver exerts force on the cabinet that certainly could move it (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). With audio, the driver will soon after moving one direction, moves back in the other direction to create a continuous sound wave. Moving back will cancel out some of the original force from the movement of the driver resulting in a vibration effect, rather than a movement effect.

However, if the cabinet is of sufficient mass, the force created by the driver will not be strong enough to move or even vibrate the cabinet.
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post #6935 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
JTR subs with custom finish usually take about 2~4 weeks longer to make. I don't think Acaps has received his sub yet.
Ah ok, thxs.
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post #6936 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 03:36 PM
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However, if the cabinet is of sufficient mass, the force created by the driver will not be strong enough to move or even vibrate the cabinet.
The JTR subs are of lower mass comparatively vs other ported subs by Rythmik for example. This is because of the use of birch ply vs MDF. The birch is not only lighter but requires less bracing (its also stronger). The Cap 118HT and 1400 relatively light for their size. @chucky7 moves his on his own. The Cap 2400 and Rythmik FV18 require two people.

We were able to make a Cap 118HT skate with a constant sine wave. It might happen if you have it on a wood floor with no feet. @chucky7 has it hapoened on carpet? I think the 2400 ULF is to heavy to skate (we'll see next week). Nothing to really worry about.

AFAIK JTR and Funk are the only manufacturers to use birch ply on all of their subs. PSA uses it for the S7201. I hope Rythmik starts to use it as I feel they are a bit too heavy.
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Edit: corrected skating sub
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post #6937 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The JTR subs are of lower mass comparatively vs other ported subs by Rythmik for example. This is because of the use of birch ply vs MDF. The birch is not only lighter but requires less bracing (its also stronger). The Cap 118HT and 1400 relatively light for their size. @chucky7 moves his on his own. The Cap 2400 and Rythmik FV18 require two people.

We were able to make @chucky7 's Cap 1400 skate (very slowly) with a constant sine wave. It might happen if you have it on a wood floor with no feet. @chucky7 has it hapoened on carpet? I think the 2400 ULF is to heavy to skate (we'll see next week). Nothing to really worry about.

AFAIK JTR and Funk are the only manufacturers to use birch ply on all of their subs. PSA uses it for the S7201. I hope Rythmik starts to use it as I feel they are a bit too heavy.
The JTR subs are lighter relative to other subs of similar size. I am able to load and unload the Cap 1400 from the handtruck to my trunk and vice versa by myself.

Just to clarify, we never got to doing CEA 2010 Max Burst for my Cap 1400 outside of your house. When we tested the Cap 118HT, because the pavement is sloped, it skated on the EVA mat. This just shows how powerful the custom 118HT driver is. In my HT, the Cap 1400 never skated on the carpet because the carpet is very thick.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 12-13-2017 at 09:56 AM.
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post #6938 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
The JTR subs are lighter relative to other subs of similar size. I am able to load and unload the Cap 1400 from the handtruck to my trunk and vice versa by myself.

Just to clarify, we never got to doing CEA 2010 Max Burst for my Cap 1400 outside of your house. When we tested the Cap 118HT, because the ground is inclined, it skated on the EVA mat. This shows how powerful the custom 118HT driver is. In my HT, the Cap 1400 never skated on the carpet because the carpet is very thick.
Thanks! Correction made
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post #6939 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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First of its kind custom JTR S1 with a Salk cabinet....

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post55295722
Beautiful! Congrats.

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post #6940 of 13743 Old 12-12-2017, 09:26 PM
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Handtrucks are for suckers. I move all my gear with the Deere.
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post #6941 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:19 PM
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is there anyone in here running as big a sub as the 2400 with bookshelf speakers? If not, what are you guys opinions on such? I have paradigm signature S4 speakers that's why I'm asking. Would dual 2400s be too much sub for those speakers?
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post #6942 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:36 PM
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is there anyone in here running as big a sub as the 2400 with bookshelf speakers? If not, what are you guys opinions on such? I have paradigm signature S4 speakers that's why I'm asking. Would dual 2400s be too much sub for those speakers?
No such thing. Bookshelves can sometime go incredibly loud when crossed at 80 Hz. I know the Polks I had in my system previously could go much louder once they didn't have to reproduce lower bass. If you have the money and room, go for it. You'll appreciate it when you play movies with heavy and low bass. When you get something like a 2400, you're not just paying for SPL, you're also getting much lower extension than with most subwoofers.
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post #6943 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:39 PM
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is there anyone in here running as big a sub as the 2400 with bookshelf speakers? If not, what are you guys opinions on such? I have paradigm signature S4 speakers that's why I'm asking. Would dual 2400s be too much sub for those speakers?
Nope! Just have to find the best crossover set up and you will be good to go. Should work out nicely. Dual 2400ULFs will put out a ton of bass. How big is your space? IMHO you can never have too much bass capacity. Actually that is the sweet spot. Having too much and dialing them back is priceless. Too much bass and tons of headroom is what JTR stands for!!!! (too much-read just right!)

Lots of folks run Bookshelves with Subs. FYI.
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post #6944 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:41 PM
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Beautiful! Congrats.
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post #6945 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:51 PM
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No such thing. Bookshelves can sometime go incredibly loud when crossed at 80 Hz. I know the Polks I had in my system previously could go much louder once they didn't have to reproduce lower bass. If you have the money and room, go for it. You'll appreciate it when you play movies with heavy and low bass. When you get something like a 2400, you're not just paying for SPL, you're also getting much lower extension than with most subwoofers.
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Nope! Just have to find the best crossover set up and you will be good to go. Should work out nicely. Dual 2400ULFs will put out a ton of bass. How big is your space? IMHO you can never have too much bass capacity. Actually that is the sweet spot. Having too much and dialing them back is priceless. Too much bass and tons of headroom is what JTR stands for!!!! (too much-read just right!)

Lots of folks run Bookshelves with Subs. FYI.

Thanks guys. My space is 1900^3 ft. And I have ran my S4s with dual ULS before but the ULS is nothing compared to the 2400 so hence the reason for my question. But what I always wonder is why isn't 120 Hz a better crossover for such capable subs as opposed to 80??
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post #6946 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:52 PM
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is there anyone in here running as big a sub as the 2400 with bookshelf speakers? If not, what are you guys opinions on such? I have paradigm signature S4 speakers that's why I'm asking. Would dual 2400s be too much sub for those speakers?
The kind of sub to get has nothing to do with the other 5 speakers. It has to do with your budget, desired listening volume and extension, and room size.

Even if you have tower speakers, you can still get the most capable JTR subs.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #6947 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post
Thanks guys. My space is 1900^3 ft. And I have ran my S4s with dual ULS before but the ULS is nothing compared to the 2400 so hence the reason for my question. But what I always wonder is why isn't 120 Hz a better crossover for such capable subs as opposed to 80??
It's certainly something you can experiment with once you get the subwoofers. 80 Hz is where most people can't localize the subwoofers. In my limited experience with my various Klipsch speakers, the higher the crossover, the louder you can play them.
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post #6948 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 12:55 PM
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Thanks guys. My space is 1900^3 ft. And I have ran my S4s with dual ULS before but the ULS is nothing compared to the 2400 so hence the reason for my question. But what I always wonder is why isn't 120 Hz a better crossover for such capable subs as opposed to 80??
It is because signal above 80Hz is said to be directional. People don't want to hear directional sound coming from the sub.

80Hz is the recommended crossover so most people just stick with it, unless they prefer something else.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
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post #6949 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post
Thanks guys. My space is 1900^3 ft. And I have ran my S4s with dual ULS before but the ULS is nothing compared to the 2400 so hence the reason for my question. But what I always wonder is why isn't 120 Hz a better crossover for such capable subs as opposed to 80??
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It is because signal above 80Hz is said to be directional. People don't want to hear directional sound coming from the sub.

80Hz is the recommended crossover so most people just stick with it, unless they prefer something else.
Localization and crossover point are both 100% room dependent. More than half of rooms you still won't be able to localize bass even up to 120hz but that starts to push it just a shade. The room should absolutely dictate the best crossover point however, provided you aren't digging into a crossover in a region that either of the two speakers is incapable of reproducing it correctly.

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post #6950 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post
Thanks guys. My space is 1900^3 ft. And I have ran my S4s with dual ULS before but the ULS is nothing compared to the 2400 so hence the reason for my question. But what I always wonder is why isn't 120 Hz a better crossover for such capable subs as opposed to 80??
I run my speakers with a 120hz crossover. With two subs I have no localization issues. Even with one sub it was only noticeable on rare occasions.

My AVR has only about 40 watts/channel so with the crossover at 120hz it sounds clearer at higher volumes. That and my subs have more output at 80-120hz than my speakers do, so I use it.

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post #6951 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post
Thanks guys. My space is 1900^3 ft. And I have ran my S4s with dual ULS before but the ULS is nothing compared to the 2400 so hence the reason for my question. But what I always wonder is why isn't 120 Hz a better crossover for such capable subs as opposed to 80??


I run my speakers with a 120hz crossover. With two subs I have no localization issues. Even with one sub it was only noticeable on rare occasions.

My AVR has only about 40 watts/channel so with the crossover at 120hz it sounds clearer at higher volumes. That and my subs have more output at 80-120hz than my speakers do, so I use it.
The latter part of this post is exactly what I was thinking. Wouldn't a sub (the 2400 in particular) be able to reproduce between 80 and 120 Hz better than most bookshelf speakers?
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post #6952 of 13743 Old 12-14-2017, 05:38 PM
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The latter part of this post is exactly what I was thinking. Wouldn't a sub (the 2400 in particular) be able to reproduce between 80 and 120 Hz better than most bookshelf speakers?
More like better than all- at least to what I would consider a bookshelf speaker.

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post #6953 of 13743 Old 12-15-2017, 09:49 AM
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The problem with hockey pucks is that they are too rigid.

When the surface is too rigid, the vibration of the sub makes it slide off the pad. Therefore, the pad should be soft enough that it compresses a bit and prevent the sub from sliding off, yet rigid enough that it provides enough support.
My thought was.. and so far it's proven true is that the s2 is simply so heavy it would negate any possible sliding issues.. so far it hasn't budged.. I am gana try some of those rubber/cork pads @Marc Alexander suggested as well though.

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post #6954 of 13743 Old 12-15-2017, 09:57 AM
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My thought was.. and so far it's proven true is that the s2 is simply so heavy it would negate any possible sliding issues.. so far it hasn't budged.. I am gonna try some of those rubber/cork pads @Marc Alexander suggested as well though.
The idea is, if it's not moving/sliding, you probably don't need to put anything under it.

I am frugal so I always recommend something cheaper first.
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post #6955 of 13743 Old 12-15-2017, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post
Thanks guys. My space is 1900^3 ft. And I have ran my S4s with dual ULS before but the ULS is nothing compared to the 2400 so hence the reason for my question. But what I always wonder is why isn't 120 Hz a better crossover for such capable subs as opposed to 80??
Here are some considerations when setting crossover points:

  1. Phase relationship between mains and sub: There are many combinations: sealed speaker/ported sub, ported speaker/sealed sub, sealed speaker/sealed sub, ported speaker/ported sub, horn speaker/sealed sub, etc. These combinations combine differently depending on the phase relationship between the speaker and sub.
  2. Speakers and subs vary in their frequency response: Some subwoofers are linear up to 200 Hz and work well with higher crossovers. Some very low bass subwoofers need lower crossovers. Most speakers don't have loud enough output without distortion below 80 Hz and need the higher crossover. Some speakers have more output down low and or the owner doesn't listen as loud and a lower crossover with a shallow rolloff provides more sources for the midbass resulting in a smoother frequency response.
  3. Speakers and subs vary in their decay: Either the subwoofer or speaker has better natural decay and will work better with either a higher or lower crossover. This is shown in a waterfall measurement of each and can be used when determining crossover. The frequency response may be the same with either a high or low crossover, but the decay will differ.
  4. Variations in reflections: Both a speaker and subwoofer have reflections in the room. A lower crossover keeps the reflections more the same through the audible range of localization. This can help provide a better soundstage and is the reason two channel guys will sometimes prefer the lower crossover for music listening.
  5. Variations in room interaction: Due to their different locations, the speakers and subs will interact with the room differently. Changing the crossover can help optimize the speaker/sub/room interaction.
  6. Voicing: A speaker and subwoofer driver can sound different at the same frequency. Change the crossover gives the listener the preferred sound of either his speaker or sub.
  7. Distance settings: Someone might not have their distance settings set properly for the type of subwoofer (it can vary depending on alignment type). This causes a timing differences and can result in being able to localize the subwoofer with a higher crossover. Some then lower the crossover instead of fixing the timing issue. Distance settings and the crossover setting work hand in hand to provide the smoothest frequency response and transition from speaker to sub
  8. Vocal Clarity: Getting the center/subwoofer crossover smooth makes for the best vocal clarity.
  9. Room Gain: The location of the speakers will affect the room gain they receive. Surrounds close to ceiling and wall will have the greatest room gain and can use a lower crossover point.
  10. Power available for speakers: If one is trying to wring as much performance as possible out of a smaller or cheaper system, then you can get better sound quality by using a higher crossover.

There are three things that are necessary for the best integration:
  1. Measurements: These really tell you whats going on with most of the above list.
  2. Listening: Listening helps you understand what you prefer. Some prefer their speaker's midbass and other's prefer their subs'.
  3. DSP Capability: You might need a 12 db/octave low pass on the sub for best integration, but your processor only has a 24 dB/octave low pass available. Most pre/pros or receivers only come with a limited set of options for the user to choose from when calibrating a system. The more choices you have the better you can integrate based on measurements and/or listening.

The following can be adjusted to help eliminate subwoofer localization:
  • Crossover frequency
  • Crossover slope
  • Time Alignment
  • Equalization of subwoofer
  • SPL difference between mains and sub
  • Subwoofer location

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post #6956 of 13743 Old 12-15-2017, 11:37 AM
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^^^

Excellent and informative post!!


I would also add one more factor in crossover selection, and that is the amount of sub boost employed. The more someone is boosting his sub, the more overt it will be with a higher crossover. Among other things, a large sub boost, combined with a high crossover, can add an unnatural coloration to voices in some cases. And, it's not uncommon to prefer differences in the amount of sub boost, and in the crossover setting, when going from movies to music.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #6957 of 13743 Old 12-15-2017, 12:42 PM
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With respect to the issue of decoupling subs from a floor, I think that even very inert cabinets may experience some transfer of vibration, depending on the sub, the floor, and the volume level of the sub. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that room vibrations can be reduced slightly with some kind of isolation material between a sub and a suspended wood floor, although some subs may already have feet which achieve the same result.

I have tried putting a lightweight object on the polished surface of my piano black PB16's, which are very inert seeming and heavy (175lbs). And, I have observed that object sliding slightly at high volumes. Similarly, as Marc mentioned, subs can skate slightly on a smooth or polished surface such as wood or marble. So, the completely inert seeming cabinet may be a little deceptive with respect to the transfer of energy to another surface.

This isn't something I would worry about at all under normal circumstances. But, if a sub sliding is a problem, or if excessive tactile energy is experienced on a suspended wood floor, or rattling is occurring in other parts of the room with a suspended wood floor, decoupling the sub from the floor is certainly one potential solution.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 12-15-2017 at 04:50 PM.
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post #6958 of 13743 Old 12-15-2017, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

Excellent and informative post!!


I would also add one more factor in crossover selection, and that is the amount of sub boost employed. The more someone is boosting his sub, the more overt it will be with a higher crossover. Among other things, a large sub boost, combined with a high crossover, can add an unnatural coloration to voices in some cases. And, it's not uncommon to prefer differences in the amount of sub boost, and in the crossover setting, when going from movies to music.
Yes, very good point. For those with XT-32 AVRs I have found that lowering the LPF for LFE from 120Hz (100Hz - 80Hz) with the higher mains crossover can mitigate the cons of a crossover above 80Hz.

This has also helped me see the light of utilizing an external DSP like the MiniDSP 2x4 (or even BFD) for your subs & MBMs. I'm not fully on-board with the Audyssey app target curve editor. I've been spoiled by the "voicing" feature of the Lyngdorf.
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post #6959 of 13743 Old 12-15-2017, 09:24 PM
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The idea is, if it's not moving/sliding, you probably don't need to put anything under it.

I am frugal so I always recommend something cheaper first.
Ah ok ic.. I was thinking it may help with some of the sympathetic vibrations

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post #6960 of 13743 Old 12-16-2017, 01:22 AM
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Yes, very good point. For those with XT-32 AVRs I have found that lowering the LPF for LFE from 120Hz (100Hz - 80Hz) with the higher mains crossover can mitigate the cons of a crossover above 80Hz.

This has also helped me see the light of utilizing an external DSP like the MiniDSP 2x4 (or even BFD) for your subs & MBMs. I'm not fully on-board with the Audyssey app target curve editor. I've been spoiled by the "voicing" feature of the Lyngdorf.


Let’s say I’m running a Yamaha AVR with YPAO or something else with Audyssey. You think that utilizing one flavor of a box from MiniDSP in addition or replacement of YPAO/Audyssey for bass management is necessary/preferred? Why? More options?


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