Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 283 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8461 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
1-4db less output above 20Hz with 1000W more power is very surprising to me...
This is the problem with CEA/CTA-2010-B. It causes some to jump to conclusions that may not be correct.

This is why there was always controversy surrounding PSA's charts and now Chucky's charts. Not only is there variance between different testers but on different days and environmental factors with the same tester.

The 2400 was tested on a hotter day (83°F) vs the 1400 (70°F). If it was overcast on the day the 1400 was tested vs the sun shining onto the 2400 amp & cabinet that would cause another significant variance.

I'm thinking of ways to test as many JTRs as possible under the same conditions on the same day. Chucky has the Cap 4000 (I need a truck with a liftgate) and the 2015 Cap while I have the 14Hz 2400ULF. I think I NEED a 10Hz 2400!

Another idea is for me to employ a reference sub which I would test prior to any CEA/CTA measurement. I'm open to any ideas. I'm still working on launching AVAnalysis.com (I needed a bit more education/training). Hopefully in June.
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post #8462 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I fixed it for you


Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Pradeep, great point that I have often wondered about, but are you sure it's true? (Real question, not sarcastic at all.)

@Marc Alexander who has done some testing, or any expert here, are we sure that changing the LFE setting does NOT affect CEA burst numbers?

To add to the mystery, the picture at Data-Bass looks like a two port version of the JTR 2400. So it's a two-port version tuned to 10 Hz??
No, the picture on databass does not depict the new design. The single port is about 9 inches wide by about 3 inches tall, if memory serves me right.

Todd

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post #8463 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Certainly a top notch achievement. But I would include the FV25HP in that league as well.
Yes no question this is one of best subwoofers on market. Definitely in your case as you have the "Rythmik whisperer" help set up your system and you've proven JTR is not up to your taste in that room.

"Recommended without reservation" however is a little more difficult. If ultra low bass is what you're chasing, maybe not. Something about upper bass performance also bothers me. I discussed here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post56251538

Just MHO/YMMV. Other deserving candidates for me would be DSS, and Funk, but sorry not FV25.

Regards, Can
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Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #8464 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Adding fuel to the fire , compare original chucky's estimate (high tune 2400?), to the current version (low tune 2400?).

New design: Gain in ultra low, loss a little higher?





















Bro, chill. I am just stating facts. I don’t care for Chucky‘ charts, sorry. Find them inaccurate in many places. Also since you keep bringing this up, I would be a bit respectful to Enrico. He is an extremely helpful person and nice guy. And very knowledgeable. Never once has he ever said anything negative about a competitor brand or pushed his own brand on me. He also never helped me set up my current subs. So I am not sure why you keep bringing that point up.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #8465 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Adding fuel to the fire , compare original Jeff's estimates (high tune 2400?), to the current version (low tune 2400?).
New design of 2400: Big gain in ultra low bass, but a slight loss in the upper low bass?

This is what @mthomas47 has mentioned earlier I believe. Compare old vs new 2400 numbers show an amazing gain in the 10 Hz output, but upper bass numbers are down a little bit. For example look at 25 Hz output between 1400 (116.2), old 2400 (118.6), and new 2400 (114.9) for example. The great news is that by the mid bass region at 40 Hz, all 3 subwoofers are happily at 120's.

FWIW, upper low bass being down a little is not too much a concern for me, since it is the deep bass that always run out of headroom. PS @chucky7 we need a new updated chart. :-)










Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #8466 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sweet Jimmy View Post
My goodness, that subwoofer is just so beautiful. I've seen it embedded in this thread several times before, and I genuinely believe that it should have an honor of one sort or another bestowed upon it. That is true excellence. Congratulations to both the builder and to the owner.


Thank you. The color is "Porsche Carmine Red." You could get just about any automotive paint color (there is a specific code for each color so any third party painter could reproduce it), including Ferrari's, Honda's, Nissan's, etc.

If I ever get the JTR 2400 , no doubt I would have automotive paint again, this time likely Porsche Guards Red. The paint job by JTR is EXQUISITE and worth every penny.



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My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #8467 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Thank you. The color is "Porsche Carmine Red." You could get just about any automotive paint color (there is a specific code for each color so any third party painter could reproduce it), including Ferrari's, Honda's, Nissan's, etc.

If I ever get the JTR 2400 , no doubt I would have automotive paint again, this time likely Porsche Guards Red. The paint job by JTR is EXQUISITE and worth every penny.



Did you order in that finish from JTR directly or did you paint it yourself. Do we have to specifically mention that to Jeff in that paint color? Is it a glossy paint? Thanks.
I still haven't heard back from Jeff regarding the upgrade from Matte finish. Also waiting for the Facebook announcement tomorrow if anything has changed.

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post #8468 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
If ultra low bass is what you're chasing, maybe not. Something about upper bass performance also bothers me. I discussed here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post56251538

Just MHO/YMMV. Other deserving candidates for me would be DSS, and Funk, but sorry not FV25.
Canga, like all Rythmik subs, the FV25 has a line in option for pure 2 channel music folls that donot require a high crossover. It also has the LFE option that operates in the 12-200hz range. I thought I had already explained this to you in the past with proven graph of my FV15 that shows its upper limit is 200hz. I don’t understand you keep bringing the line in option up, yes it rolls off after 60hz but as explained above, one has the lfe option also which most of us use for movie/HT. Having option is a very good thing, would you rather not? Look at the number @imureh posted below for the FV25? Do the numbers decrease/roll off after 60hz? There’s your answer, seriously . Sorry, back to JTR programming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post




Edit: testing temp was 77 degree

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post #8469 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Canga, like all Rythmik subs, the FV25 has a line in option for pure 2 channel music folls that donot require a high crossover. It also has the LFE option that operates in the 12-200hz range. I thought I had already explained this to you in the past with proven graph of my FV15 that shows its upper limit is 200hz. I don’t understand you keep bringing the line in option up, yes it rolls off after 60hz but as explained above, one has the lfe option also which most of us use for movie/HT. Having option is a very good thing, would you rather not? Look at the number @imureh posted below for the FV25? Do the numbers decrease/roll off after 60hz? There’s your answer, seriously . Sorry, back to JTR programming.
That's because for various reasons (which I suspect/guess, are related to metallic driver and cone breakup limiting upper bandwidth), I am not sure the full range input (LFE) without cut off is NOT a sonic compromise. But agreed that this is JTR thread so if you would like to discuss further we could PM.

Sorry if I am difficult with the title "recommended, without reservation" - I have to be completely happy to give this. Rythmik is a great subwoofer company, enjoy it, title or not (I was doing it the title "thing" purely for fun anyway. :-)).

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #8470 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 08:48 PM
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Lyngdorf uses aluminum drivers in their boundary woofers. The pair I currently have cover from 25Hz all the way to 800Hz. Likely a foreign concept to many folks, Lyngdorf recommends a crossover between 200-400Hz.

I also have the Rythmik FV18. The Rythmik FV25 should be on any non-partisan "highly recommended" list.
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post #8471 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I am not sure the full range input (LFE) without cut off is NOT a compromise. But agreed that this is JTR thread so if you would like to discuss further we could PM.
No need to PM as the answer is right in front of you with databass numbers, no compromise. Here is the graphs comparing it to the 2400 if it makes it easier for you to see.

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post #8472 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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@tvuong , this is a graph without subjective evaluation. For example looking at it you wouldn't know that to play EOT with Rythmik it is recommended to engage rumble filter which cut another 6 dB at 10 Hz right?

As for the upper bass performance of metallic drivers, Rythmik itself explains on its web site, if you opt for soft cone material, upper bandwidth is extended. *IF* (granted, and only if) there are users who notice an AUDIBLE difference between LFE input and Line-In, or has to use the Low Pass Filter otherwise sound becomes booming, etc., my theory/suspicion offers a reasonable explanation. Please don't be upset or take it as criticism. It's actually a very interesting discussion of cone material.

As already suggested, if you would like to continue, please PM or start another thread. How many times do I need to repeat it's a good subwoofer, enjoy it?
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My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #8473 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 09:01 PM
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^^ Let just move on, you now are talking about a completely different subject
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post #8474 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 09:18 PM
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By the way, I absolutely love JTR subs and speakers along with Seaton’s. It’s just that I don’t have a reason to upgrade plus money is tight now.
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post #8475 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
PS @chucky7 we need a new updated chart.
I have updated the table with Data-bass numbers and current pricing since May 25th...


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #8476 of 13442 Old 05-31-2018, 10:26 PM
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A comparison of 2400ULF 10Hz vs 2400ULF 14Hz, 1400 and 4000ULF:



Now, the 2400ULF old's output data was based on the output increase when we go from 1400W to 2400W. When all else being equal, 3dB more output would result when the power doubles. Therefore, 2 dB more output across is very reasonable when the power goes up by 71%. However, such assumption did not factor in the change in port tune. When the 2400ULF's port tune goes from the old 14Hz to the new 10Hz, a loss of 1~2dB from 16~80Hz would result. It seems the new 2400ULF traded ~3dB of output from 16~80Hz for a lower extension. I asked Jeff about this last weekend. He pointed out that it was 83 degrees on the day it was tested, outside of the suitable testing temp range of 60~80 degrees.

I did notice something though:

Why was 2400 ULF tested with gain only at 2/3?



I was under the impression that all subs were tested with the gain at max?



However, it is what it is. No buts.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #8477 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
A comparison of 2400ULF 10Hz vs 2400ULF 14Hz, 1400 and 4000ULF:


Based on Jeffs numbers for the 14Hz tuned 2400 I would take the old one over the new 10 Hz tuned model. I'm guessing he'll prob have both versions available for order (at least for those with existing 14Hz 2400s)
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post #8478 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Bro, chill. I am just stating facts. I don’t care for Chucky‘ charts, sorry. Find them inaccurate in many places.
Right... Tell me where?



BTW, it's not my fault that the products you own were not tested on Data-bass.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #8479 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 02:57 AM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Right... Tell me where?



BTW, it's not my fault that the products you own were not tested on Data-bass.


We have had this discussion before. So not going there again.

The charts I posted were from data-bass so yes I would take those over your calculated ones.

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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #8480 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Based on Jeffs numbers for the 14Hz tuned 2400 I would take the old one over the new 10 Hz tuned model. I'm guessing he'll prob have both versions available for order (at least for those with existing 14Hz 2400s)
I would take the 10~16Hz numbers from the 10Hz tuned 2400ULF and the 20~100Hz numbers from the 14Hz tuned 2400ULF... Those numbers would probably require: A. a cabinet deeper than 22.5" (w/o changing the height and width) and/or B. more power.

The problem is that the 10Hz tuned 2400ULF is approaching $3000 shipped. When it is priced too close to the 4000ULF, it loses its niche and its output per dollar suffers.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #8481 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 07:44 AM
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Quick question regarding XLR cables. I will be going from the ART cleanbox to 1 S2, then from the S2 to the 2nd S2. Would I essentially need 2 XLR cables with a male and female on each end? I will probably be getting the Monoprice higher end ones. Forget what they are called.

Thanks!

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post #8482 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 07:53 AM
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Are your S2s equidistant from the listening position? If not and your receiver can eq two subs (Xt32 with subeq?) I would use both RCA ins on the Cleanbox and then run two xlr cables, one to each s2.
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post #8483 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 08:04 AM
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They are equal distance. My receiver is an Anthem, so although there are 2 sub outs, the eq combines the signal into 1, so it wouldn't matter if I did1 connection or 2. That is an option though, would just rather not do 2 long runs if I don't have to.

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post #8484 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The 2400 was tested on a hotter day (83°F) vs the 1400 (70°F). If it was overcast on the day the 1400 was tested vs the sun shining onto the 2400 amp & cabinet that would cause another significant variance.
I'd be interested in seeing Jeff's numbers for comparison.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Based on Jeffs numbers for the 14Hz tuned 2400 I would take the old one over the new 10 Hz tuned model.
I would take the 10~16Hz numbers from the 10Hz tuned 2400ULF and the 20~100Hz numbers from the 14Hz tuned 2400ULF... Those numbers would probably require: A. a cabinet deeper than 22.5" (w/o changing the height and width) and/or B. more power.
Take it FWIW coming from a newb. Reading a bit between the lines of some post, words like "fine", "acceptable", tends to suggest less than enthusiastic number results in the mid-base range.


TBH, when I first heard of the 10hz tuning I was expecting 100db - 100.4db @10hz and the mid-base to be more inline/equal to the Cap1400. Nonetheless I'm sure i'll be totally happy with my 10hz Cap240ULF.

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Sub: JTR Captivator 2400ULF-10hz

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post #8485 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 08:24 AM
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I have two power ported 10hz tuned XXX 18 subs. The one shown on the list was 12.5hz tuned. Mine would be 6 dB(massive enclosures) more at 10hz and 3 dB less at 12.5hz compared to that chart. My midbass is just like what the 10hz tuned 2400ULF showed but being a higher x-max driver I have more low end. I owned sub systems that could play 140 dB plus in the 50-150hz range. Guess what, I like these two power ported xxx 18 with so called lower midbass better, not by a little. Why? Because in reality I don't play 140 dB in the midbass so once a sub can reach a level cleanly in room the difference maker is the low end!

Kudos to Jeff, breaking the norm and building low frequency subs! If not neck deep into DIY the ULF subs would be my choice, great job Jeff. Now if you want 140 dB in the midbass grab a couple orbit shifters and be done.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #8486 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 04rex View Post
They are equal distance. My receiver is an Anthem, so although there are 2 sub outs, the eq combines the signal into 1, so it wouldn't matter if I did1 connection or 2. That is an option though, would just rather not do 2 long runs if I don't have to.
Ok then just go ahead and daisy chain them via the one xlr cable from the cleanbox
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post #8487 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Ok then just go ahead and daisy chain them via the one xlr cable from the cleanbox


For sure, but my question is the XLR cable. Would they all be one end female the other end Male? What are the connections on the JTR sub amps for XLR?

FAMILY ROOM - Totem Tribe II LCR, JL Audio E-112, Anthem MRX 720, Apple TV, WD HDTV, Panasonic 55" Plasma
BASEMENT THEATRE - Paradigm Studio 100 v5, 690 v5, 10x4 v5, Anthem AVM 60, Outlaw Audio 7700 & 7125, 2x JTR Captivator S2s, X-Box One X, Apple TV 4K, HTPC, JVC NX-5, 106" screen
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post #8488 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Lorderl View Post
I'd be interested in seeing Jeff's numbers for comparison.
When Jeff introduced the 14Hz tuned 2400ULF, he did say that it would be -10dB @ 10Hz, -4dB @16Hz and -5dB from 40~100Hz compared to a 4000ULF.

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Take it FWIW coming from a newb. Reading a bit between the lines of some post, words like "fine", "acceptanle", tends to suggest less than enthusiastic number results in the mid-base range.

TBH, when I first heard of the 10hz tuning I was expecting 100db - 100.4db @10hz and the mid-base to be more inline/equal to the Cap1400. Nonetheless I'm sure i'll be totally happy with my 10hz Cap240ULF.
I think I am just spoiled by JTR... I was expecting output somewhere between the 4000ULF and the 1400, as it is priced that way. Make no mistake, Jeff is still the only one doing a 165lb, 10Hz tuned ported sub. It's just that Jeff raised the bar so high...

The 4000ULF hit 115dB at my MLP 13 ft from it. Therefore, with the 10Hz tuned 2400ULF 5.5ft from the MLP, you should be getting at least 105dB, assuming the MLP is not in a null.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #8489 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 09:23 AM
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For sure, but my question is the XLR cable. Would they all be one end female the other end Male? What are the connections on the JTR sub amps for XLR?
Yeah so you just want two xlr cables with female on one end and male on the other, the sub amp has one xlr input, and one xlr looping output.
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post #8490 of 13442 Old 06-01-2018, 09:33 AM
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Yeah so you just want two xlr cables with female on one end and male on the other, the sub amp has one xlr input, and one xlr looping output.
Sweet, thanks bud!

FAMILY ROOM - Totem Tribe II LCR, JL Audio E-112, Anthem MRX 720, Apple TV, WD HDTV, Panasonic 55" Plasma
BASEMENT THEATRE - Paradigm Studio 100 v5, 690 v5, 10x4 v5, Anthem AVM 60, Outlaw Audio 7700 & 7125, 2x JTR Captivator S2s, X-Box One X, Apple TV 4K, HTPC, JVC NX-5, 106" screen
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