Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 285 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8521 of 13004 Old 06-01-2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What are the details of your setup & room?

I own the 14Hz 2400ULF. Tomorrow I will test with both ports open vs one port plugged. I don't have the DSP settings [yet] to take full advantage of the 10Hz tune but I should get an accurate picture of the trade-off in the upper bass.

For my downstairs I prefer the 14Hz tune. It is open concept with no room gain below 16Hz. For my upstairs (smaller, sealed room) I would choose the 10Hz.
Do let us know what your test results are. I don't know how much better it will be with a 10Hz extension while sacrificing the midbass. I have an open room about 25x20x15 so it's a large space (i don't know if I will even feel the 10hz). I think in a room this size with an open concept the 14Hz might be better. Do correct me if I am wrong though.
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post #8522 of 13004 Old 06-01-2018, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Thanks buddy. Will post this on first page as usual.

BTW regarding on going discussion, I agreed of course that nothing comes free, a low tune will affect upper bass output (mthomas47 and I first discussed this a few pages back). Having said that, IMHO because the 2400 starts out with such powerful driver and amp, even after the "sacrifice," it still is a tremendously potent subwoof in the upper range. As owner of 1400 which seems to be part of the point of contention here, I would still vote for new 2400 because of the eye popping 10 Hz output.

IMHO, deep bass is expensive bass; it's what I, and I believe most of us bass-heads, chase. It is what makes this hobby so fun and exciting. So given the chance I'd go for it hook, line, and sinker. And please don't make me quote Fletcher Munson curve again .

I'm going to play devi's advocate here....

I would be willing to bet that almost everyone would subjectively prefer an Orbit Shifter LFU to the Cap 2400. For those of us on concrete floors and rooms that aren't small the low stuff just doesn't do a lot for us. This is coming from a guy with 9 sealed 18" subs. For the low stuff I use Crowsons because in my room all I get from 13-14 hz and below is bad house groans/sounds. I get no feel and obviously no sound, and I think my room is too big to get the pressured head feeling (I'm not a big fan of that feeling anyway).

Now, if someone has a smaller room or a suspended floor or they have a sub placement/MLP placement combination that allows them to feel the low stuff then that's awesome.

Not to mention the vast majority of movies now days filter at 30 hz, 20 hz if you are lucky.

So.. why haven't I switched from an all sealed setup? For me there is something about having a ton of extra headroom that all those drivers provide. Gun shots are a great example. That chest slam and violence (ha, just remembered that is how I would describe the Orbit Shifter if I had to do it in one word) just doesn't come from less drivers in a ported setup and I don't have room for 9 ported subs anyway.


I hope I'm not ruffling feathers, just wanted to give my opinion. I'm not saying the 2400 wouldn't be awesome, I'm sure it is! I think it's the only JTR sub I haven't heard, and all of the others are amazing. I think though, that if I were buying a 2400 I'd opt for the higher tuned option.
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post #8523 of 13004 Old 06-01-2018, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I'm going to play devi's advocate here....

I would be willing to bet that almost everyone would subjectively prefer an Orbit Shifter LFU to the Cap 2400. For those of us on concrete floors and rooms that aren't small the low stuff just doesn't do a lot for us. This is coming from a guy with 9 sealed 18" subs. For the low stuff I use Crowsons because in my room all I get from 13-14 hz and below is bad house groans/sounds. I get no feel and obviously no sound, and I think my room is too big to get the pressured head feeling (I'm not a big fan of that feeling anyway).
.
How do you drive all those subwoofers?
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post #8524 of 13004 Old 06-01-2018, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mir3acles View Post
How do you drive all those subwoofers?
A CV 5000 for the 8 subs in the front corners of the room. I've been beating the hell out of it with a 2 ohm load for over 5 years... I don't think I can kill it.

For the nearfield 18 I use a inuke 3000 dsp bridged, and I use another inuke 3000 dsp to power the 2 Crowsons.
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post #8525 of 13004 Old 06-01-2018, 10:26 PM
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Hey Carp, I bet if you could port those 9 sealed subs and tune them to 10hz you would have a different opinion. Getting the low end from room gain feels much different than getting it from the subs natural response as well as much more tactile response which is violent. Going from 9 to one is a no brainer, 9 kicks butt. People with no room gain would actually be flat to 8hz in room where a sealed sub would be down 12 dB from that. With room gain you get even a peak in the region needing it the most. Even if you run an LT on the sealed you still don’t get that tactile effect from the ported. It all comes down to what people prefer like anything else. I like 125 dB mid bass and 135 dB ULF and not 135 dB mid bass with 125 dB ULF. It is not about shaking either, it is about pressure and weight but my room provides that. That is another thing guys, my room provides so much pressure that when the mid bass gets extreme it starts to tickle and hurt the ears as you can feel the hair in your ears start to vibrate. The low stuff provides pressure but not to the ears as much, more to the room. My doors actually get sucked in and then can blow open if not closed correctly.
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post #8526 of 13004 Old 06-01-2018, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander;56277752

HSU Research presents its data in the format most consistent with the standard. However, in my opinion data-bass has superceded ANSI/CEA/CTA. With good reason: [url
https://data-bass.com/know-how[/url].)
I quit caring about strictly adhering to the ANSI/ CEA/ CTA 2010 documents to the letter years ago. About the 1st year. I disagree with some parts of it. I gave my opinion as did a few others back during the update to "B". It is a long story for some other time.

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post #8527 of 13004 Old 06-01-2018, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Hey Carp, I bet if you could port those 9 sealed subs and tune them to 10hz you would have a different opinion. Getting the low end from room gain feels much different than getting it from the subs natural response as well as much more tactile response which is violent. Going from 9 to one is a no brainer, 9 kicks butt. People with no room gain would actually be flat to 8hz in room where a sealed sub would be down 12 dB from that. With room gain you get even a peak in the region needing it the most. Even if you run an LT on the sealed you still don’t get that tactile effect from the ported. It all comes down to what people prefer like anything else. I like 125 dB mid bass and 135 dB ULF and not 135 dB mid bass with 125 dB ULF. It is not about shaking either, it is about pressure and weight but my room provides that. That is another thing guys, my room provides so much pressure that when the mid bass gets extreme it starts to tickle and hurt the ears as you can feel the hair in your ears start to vibrate. The low stuff provides pressure but not to the ears as much, more to the room. My doors actually get sucked in and then can blow open if not closed correctly.

Oh sure, if I had the space to turn all of my sealed into ported like Rob did I'd be all over it.

Reading the description of your room reminds me that we will all be deaf someday. We had a lot of fun getting there though.

I wonder if you have more output down low than Luke? I was recently in his room, and it was insane but nothing to change my mind about the really low stuff.

I still think most people (in non bunker rooms ) would prefer an Orbit Shifter over a 2400. A friend of mine recently compared a 4000 to his dual OS's an he liked the OS's better. Like you say though, we all have different preferences.
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post #8528 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Thanks @chucky7 this is a good world example. However, my measurements of the Monolith and the Rythmik subs' VT modes don't show an upper-bass drop-off and neither does data-bass.
Ummm... Look again...



It's there for Hsu VTF-15H, Rythmik FV15HP, Rythmik FV18 and again for SVS PB13-Ultra...

Maybe not just limited to upper-bass, but drop offs nonetheless between 1~2dB in the 5 testing frequecies above, then tapers off.

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6.)Vented sub design. In short there is no free lunch and everything involves tradeoffs. You will lose some overall sensitivity and efficiency by tuning 2/3rds octave lower. Driver excursion will increase when asked to reach the same output levels as the higher tuned design above the vent tuning. I mentioned this a bit in the review notes.

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My testing tomorrow should be telling. I only expecting the differences in output (over fractions of a dB) to occur around the tuning frequencies. Let me know if you are available to bring the 1400 by.
I have guests over on Saturday. Can't do it.

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post #8529 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 02:05 AM
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June 1st came and went...

I thought Jeff was supposed to make a big announcement?...
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post #8530 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Oh sure, if I had the space to turn all of my sealed into ported like Rob did I'd be all over it.

Reading the description of your room reminds me that we will all be deaf someday. We had a lot of fun getting there though.

I wonder if you have more output down low than Luke? I was recently in his room, and it was insane but nothing to change my mind about the really low stuff.

I still think most people (in non bunker rooms ) would prefer an Orbit Shifter over a 2400. A friend of mine recently compared a 4000 to his dual OS's an he liked the OS's better. Like you say though, we all have different preferences.

Hi Carp,

I think it's interesting to hear different perspectives on this. But, count me as one of those who would prefer subs that are tuned low, in a big space on concrete. We used to talk a lot on the Nearfield MBM thread about susceptibility to tactile sensations. For instance, some people seem more susceptible to chest punch than others. And, I believe that room construction can enhance or inhibit that effect, with dense wood paneling for example increasing tactility. I have that in my room.

But, on a concrete pad, it can take a lot of low-frequency SPL to hear, and especially to feel, what we may want to experience in action movies and blockbusters. Some people, like yourself, use Crowson's or other tactile transducers to enhance those effects. But, I enjoy getting the effects with my subwoofers. And, if I really want to, I can make my concrete pad ripple with low-frequency energy.

As MKtheater noted, ported subs are a whole different animal when it comes to low-bass tactile sensations. I honestly think that for most people, achieving adequate mid-bass is fairly easy, although even there some people want additional mid-bass tactile sensations, perhaps for reasons alluded to earlier. Most of the subwoofer upgrades I see on the forum, though, involve people seeking more low-frequency SPL. Jeff is an innovator, but he also follows his customer demands. If the demand were for more mid-bass output, he would be selling more Orbit Shifters, and spending less time developing Cap 4000's and low-tuned Cap 2400's.

I think that you have an outstanding bass system that took you a lot of time and effort to develop. And, it's one that suits you very well. But, if you were starting from scratch today, and wanted to simplify your life, I suspect that dual Cap 4000's (or perhaps even two or three Cap 2400's) could probably get you very close to the same level of satisfaction that you feel now. I remember your positive impressions when you tested just one Cap 4000 in your room.

I really do think that individual user preference rules, and that some people will inevitably like subwoofers which are designed to emphasize mid-bass frequencies more than low-bass ones. But, my own preferences are for ample low-bass. In a smaller room with more room gain, or on a suspended wood floor with more transferred tactile energy, I might find myself wanting to back-off the ULF. But, in large rooms, on concrete, I think that most people are likely to opt for more low-bass SPL and tactile response.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #8531 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I would be willing to bet that almost everyone would subjectively prefer an Orbit Shifter LFU to the Cap 2400...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
...I bet if you could port those 9 sealed subs and tune them to 10hz you would have a different opinion.

I bet because of room gain (for anyone new to this hobby, this gain begins around 25 Hz down at 12dB/octave) that "favors" sealed subs (carp's 9 sealed subs' outputs don't drop like a stone below tuning frequency), he has more ultra deep bass than anyone here and just doesn't know he has it and likes it.

Kidding aside @carp your counterpoint is excellent and of course welcome. I would add however which one is better perhaps depends very much on what you are playing.
***For conventional rock and classical where mid bass lays the foundation and provides the punch and rhythm, Orbit Shifter is king.
***For movies where actually ULF block busters are *still* being released, Blade Runner 2049 being latest example, that range of 10-30 Hz is critical to enjoyment IMHO and the JTR 2400/4000 pair are champions. Fact that the mid bass here even after any so-called "sacrifice" is still world class is cherry on top. Best of both worlds.

Interesting discussion, basically to me/IMHO JTR ULF could do both, but Orbit Shifter is more of a mid bass specialist perhaps? But bottom line is I would absolutely love to have both in my room. Ciao - I am heading to Los Angeles Audio Show for more fun https://thehomeentertainmentshow.com/ .
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post #8532 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 09:20 AM
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June 1st came and went...

I thought Jeff was supposed to make a big announcement?...
+1, still waiting as well.

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post #8533 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 09:23 AM
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+1, still waiting as well.



Maybe a 218RT and a new Captivator with dual 24's.

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post #8534 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Ummm... Look again...



It's there for Hsu VTF-15H, Rythmik FV15HP, Rythmik FV18 and again for SVS PB13-Ultra...

Maybe not just limited to upper-bass, but drop offs nonetheless between 1~2dB in the 5 testing frequecies above, then tapers off.
I should have written that the Rythmik FV18 and Monoliths do not exhibit "significant" upper bass drop-off. I don't consider ~0.5db significant. I'm not disputing that there is a trade-off. The differences are more significant closer to the tuning frequency +1 octave (it looks like it is more like +1⅓/1½ octave).
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post #8535 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 09:27 AM
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I had 12 sealed Si 18HTs and 8 sealed Fi IB3-18s in my 1430 cubic foot room and neither one has the tactile sensations of two ported XXX 18s in my room. The ported drops off at 5hz and the other two were flat to 3hz.
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post #8536 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I should have written that the Rythmik FV18 and Monoliths do not exhibit "significant" upper bass drop-off. I don't consider ~0.5db significant. I'm not disputing that there is a trade-off. The differences are more significant closer to the tuning frequency +1 octave (it looks like it is more like +1⅓/1½ octave).
That is because the tuning is changing only. A proper low tuned enclosure should be bigger as well where these subs don't change in size. The larger the enclosure the more you will see this change as it will aide in getting the proper gain on the low end.

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post #8537 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 10:07 AM
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Not to mention the vast majority of movies now days filter at 30 hz, 20 hz if you are lucky.
It actually seems that's not the case, that sub-30 Hz content is common these days.

What am I missing?

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post #8538 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Carp,

I think it's interesting to hear different perspectives on this. But, count me as one of those who would prefer subs that are tuned low, in a big space on concrete. We used to talk a lot on the Nearfield MBM thread about susceptibility to tactile sensations. For instance, some people seem more susceptible to chest punch than others. And, I believe that room construction can enhance or inhibit that effect, with dense wood paneling for example increasing tactility. I have that in my room.

But, on a concrete pad, it can take a lot of low-frequency SPL to hear, and especially to feel, what we may want to experience in action movies and blockbusters. Some people, like yourself, use Crowson's or other tactile transducers to enhance those effects. But, I enjoy getting the effects with my subwoofers. And, if I really want to, I can make my concrete pad ripple with low-frequency energy.

As MKtheater noted, ported subs are a whole different animal when it comes to low-bass tactile sensations. I honestly think that for most people, achieving adequate mid-bass is fairly easy, although even there some people want additional mid-bass tactile sensations, perhaps for reasons alluded to earlier. Most of the subwoofer upgrades I see on the forum, though, involve people seeking more low-frequency SPL. Jeff is an innovator, but he also follows his customer demands. If the demand were for more mid-bass output, he would be selling more Orbit Shifters, and spending less time developing Cap 4000's and low-tuned Cap 2400's.

I think that you have an outstanding bass system that took you a lot of time and effort to develop. And, it's one that suits you very well. But, if you were starting from scratch today, and wanted to simplify your life, I suspect that dual Cap 4000's (or perhaps even two or three Cap 2400's) could probably get you very close to the same level of satisfaction that you feel now. I remember your positive impressions when you tested just one Cap 4000 in your room.

I really do think that individual user preference rules, and that some people will inevitably like subwoofers which are designed to emphasize mid-bass frequencies more than low-bass ones. But, my own preferences are for ample low-bass. In a smaller room with more room gain, or on a suspended wood floor with more transferred tactile energy, I might find myself wanting to back-off the ULF. But, in large rooms, on concrete, I think that most people are likely to opt for more low-bass SPL and tactile response.

Regards,
Mike

Hey Mike, good stuff!

I think I may have been a little tired when posting last night. Of course I love big arse ported subs!! My dual Captivators were so much fun. I think they had more powerful drivers the current 1400, this was the 2011 version that Jeff use a 4000 amp with. I had passive versions. I just don't think they need to be tuned quite so low.

The 4000 is beyond awesome. Yes, if space were not an issue and there was a tall boy 4000 that could fit in the foot print where my 8 sealed are now and I were starting from scratch I think I would go that route. When comparing the 4000 to 8 sealed (turned off the nearfield for the comparison) it was close. The low stuff below say 25 hz seemed pretty even between the two. The advantage the 8 had was with the chest slam and higher low bass/lower mid bass. The main scene where I would tell a difference was the John Wick club scene.

So, I bet a 2nd 4000 which would give me an average 3 db gain above 40 ish hz which would probably be all I would need to match the chest slam with the 8 sealed. Below 40 ish hz I would get more of a gain than that so overall advantage 4000. That's my best guess anyway.

I think many would feel/hear a strong 20 hz effect in a movie and think it was a lot lower than that. As you know that crazy plane roll scene in Flight of the Phoenix is centered around 32 hz. It gives so much more feel than sound at 30 ish hz!!

I think if people with a minidsp or some other device that can put filters down to 10hz would put a 48 db slope 14 hz filter on and cranked up some classic demo scenes they would be more than a little surprised at how little if any feel they would be getting. MKTheater would be an exception to this, I bet in his smaller concrete room the pressure would be crazy even into the single digits. Luke would be another with his 8 ported 21's, there are others I'm sure.

My overall point was that I think many (not you) people haven't really tested what the different frequencies feel/sound like - well that - and it bugs me a little that most don't know how impressive a OS LFU is. I think it's no longer being made? That's too bad. Mike I know you say you like the low tuned ported subs but I would be shocked if you didn't prefer an OS to a 2400.

Until proven wrong I still say bass below 13-14 hz is over rated. Way over rated.

Look at this comparison. Remember that Flight of the Phoenix example. Forgetting that example, most movies that have strong content below 15 hz also have stronger content above that going on at the same time.




As usual this post was a rambling mess, hopefully it made a little sense.
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post #8539 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 10:11 AM
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I think a 4000 tuned to 14-15 hz would be my ideal ID sub.
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post #8540 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I bet because of room gain (for anyone new to this hobby, this gain begins around 25 Hz down at 12dB/octave) that "favors" sealed subs (carp's 9 sealed subs' outputs don't drop like a stone below tuning frequency), he has more ultra deep bass than anyone here and just doesn't know he has it and likes it.

Kidding aside @carp your counterpoint is excellent and of course welcome. I would add however which one is better perhaps depends very much on what you are playing.
***For conventional rock and classical where mid bass lays the foundation and provides the punch and rhythm, Orbit Shifter is king.
***For movies where actually ULF block busters are *still* being released, Blade Runner 2049 being latest example, that range of 10-30 Hz is critical to enjoyment IMHO and the JTR 2400/4000 pair are champions. Fact that the mid bass here even after any so-called "sacrifice" is still world class is cherry on top. Best of both worlds.

Interesting discussion, basically to me/IMHO JTR ULF could do both, but Orbit Shifter is more of a mid bass specialist perhaps? But bottom line is I would absolutely love to have both in my room. Ciao - I am heading to Los Angeles Audio Show for more fun https://thehomeentertainmentshow.com/ .


Ha, thanks for the comliment but I have very little low bass compared to some of the heavy hitters! Not that this is low bass related, but when we went up to Luke's place in MN a couple months ago we were measuring 125 db's IN HIS KITCHEN above his HT room and around 150 db's in his room. Insane. Makes my room look like a bose setup.

He has 8 ported 21's and 2 Othorns.

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post #8541 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
It actually seems that's not the case, that sub-30 Hz content is common these days.

What am I missing?

Ultimate List of BASS in Movies
It's getting less common IMO. I follow that thread and have read every post - well unless someone posted while I'm posting this.

Disney/Marvel movies almost all have sharp roll offs as do many of the other blockbusters. Of course there are still movies with strong content down low, I absolutely love 2049.
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post #8542 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I bet because of room gain (for anyone new to this hobby, this gain begins around 25 Hz down at 12dB/octave) that "favors" sealed subs (carp's 9 sealed subs' outputs don't drop like a stone below tuning frequency), he has more ultra deep bass than anyone here and just doesn't know he has it and likes it.

Kidding aside @carp your counterpoint is excellent and of course welcome. I would add however which one is better perhaps depends very much on what you are playing.
***For conventional rock and classical where mid bass lays the foundation and provides the punch and rhythm, Orbit Shifter is king.
***For movies where actually ULF block busters are *still* being released, Blade Runner 2049 being latest example, that range of 10-30 Hz is critical to enjoyment IMHO and the JTR 2400/4000 pair are champions. Fact that the mid bass here even after any so-called "sacrifice" is still world class is cherry on top. Best of both worlds.

Interesting discussion, basically to me/IMHO JTR ULF could do both, but Orbit Shifter is more of a mid bass specialist perhaps? But bottom line is I would absolutely love to have both in my room. Ciao - I am heading to Los Angeles Audio Show for more fun https://thehomeentertainmentshow.com/ .


I think you are referrring to a OS Pro. The OS is does very, very well with movies and is not just a mid bass chest pounder.

I'm not saying it can compete with a Ghorn.... but it's not designed to.
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post #8543 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Hey Mike, good stuff!

I think I may have been a little tired when posting last night. Of course I love big arse ported subs!! My dual Captivators were so much fun. I think they had more powerful drivers the current 1400, this was the 2011 version that Jeff use a 4000 amp with. I had passive versions. I just don't think they need to be tuned quite so low.

The 4000 is beyond awesome. Yes, if space were not an issue and there was a tall boy 4000 that could fit in the foot print where my 8 sealed are now and I were starting from scratch I think I would go that route. When comparing the 4000 to 8 sealed (turned off the nearfield for the comparison) it was close. The low stuff below say 25 hz seemed pretty even between the two. The advantage the 8 had was with the chest slam and higher low bass/lower mid bass. The main scene where I would tell a difference was the John Wick club scene.

So, I bet a 2nd 4000 which would give me an average 3 db gain above 40 ish hz which would probably be all I would need to match the chest slam with the 8 sealed. Below 40 ish hz I would get more of a gain than that so overall advantage 4000. That's my best guess anyway.

I think many would feel/hear a strong 20 hz effect in a movie and think it was a lot lower than that. As you know that crazy plane roll scene in Flight of the Phoenix is centered around 32 hz. It gives so much more feel than sound at 30 ish hz!!

I think if people with a minidsp or some other device that can put filters down to 10hz would put a 48 db slope 14 hz filter on and cranked up some classic demo scenes they would be more than a little surprised at how little if any feel they would be getting. MKTheater would be an exception to this, I bet in his smaller concrete room the pressure would be crazy even into the single digits. Luke would be another with his 8 ported 21's, there are others I'm sure.

My overall point was that I think many (not you) people haven't really tested what the different frequencies feel/sound like - well that - and it bugs me a little that most don't know how impressive a OS LFU is. I think it's no longer being made? That's too bad. Mike I know you say you like the low tuned ported subs but I would be shocked if you didn't prefer an OS to a 2400.

Until proven wrong I still say bass below 13-14 hz is over rated. Way over rated.

Look at this comparison. Remember that Flight of the Phoenix example. Forgetting that example, most movies that have strong content below 15 hz also have stronger content above that going on at the same time.




As usual this post was a rambling mess, hopefully it made a little sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I think a 4000 tuned to 14-15 hz would be my ideal ID sub.

Your post made complete sense, as always! So, did the first one; I just wanted to offer a little different perspective to it. I actually agree with you that good SPL into the low-teens is enough for almost anyone. When I speak of a low-port tune, I am thinking of something in the 14Hz or 15Hz, or lower range. As I mentioned in some earlier posts, I honestly don't know if most of us, myself included, would be able to tell much difference between a 14Hz tune and a 10Hz tune on a Cap 2400.

The Cap 4000 has so much mid-bass SPL, even with the 10Hz port tune, that it's probably only in a head-to-head comparison, such as the one you made, that anyone would ever notice any deficiency. And, if he did, he would just add another Cap 4000, as you said.

I don't think we are really saying anything very different at all, although you may enjoy mid-bass tactile sensations a little more than I do. Or perhaps, I'm just a little more susceptible to that particular sensation, and therefore prefer having more ULF TR to compensate. On the other hand, you have Crowson's, so you may just like having more of everything.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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Carp, I don’t disagree at all, the room is a big factor as well. That is funny you mentioned FOTP which is my favorite bass demo. As you mentioned the highest level is at 32 hz but unlike many of the filtered at 30hz movies it sounds much different and why people thinks it is lower. It is because there is still ULF content going on just not as loud as the 32hz. There is a big difference if you filter all that out and then it sounds hollow and not as heavy, The first Avengers comes to mind. That bass is mostly 30hz with nothing below and it sounds much different than FOTP.
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post #8545 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Your post made complete sense, as always! So, did the first one; I just wanted to offer a little different perspective to it. I actually agree with you that good SPL into the low-teens is enough for almost anyone. When I speak of a low-port tune, I am thinking of something in the 14Hz or 15Hz, or lower range. As I mentioned in some earlier posts, I honestly don't know if most of us, myself included, would be able to tell much difference between a 14Hz tune and a 10Hz tune on a Cap 2400.

The Cap 4000 has so much mid-bass SPL, even with the 10Hz port tune, that it's probably only in a head-to-head comparison, such as the one you made, that anyone would ever notice any deficiency. And, if he did, he would just add another Cap 4000, as you said.

I don't think we are really saying anything very different at all, although you may enjoy mid-bass tactile sensations a little more than I do. Or perhaps, I'm just a little more susceptible to that particular sensation, and therefore prefer having more ULF TR to compensate. On the other hand, you have Crowson's, so you may just like having more of everything.

Regards,
Mike
Your last paragraph got me thinking..... I think one of the biggest variables as far as preferences is our own mood! Sometimes I want more chest slam, others more low end grunt, others more slow wobbly feel, etc.

Oh how nice it would be to be one of those set it and forget it guys but I just can't do it!!
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Carp, I don’t disagree at all, the room is a big factor as well. That is funny you mentioned FOTP which is my favorite bass demo. As you mentioned the highest level is at 32 hz but unlike many of the filtered at 30hz movies it sounds much different and why people thinks it is lower. It is because there is still ULF content going on just not as loud as the 32hz. There is a big difference if you filter all that out and then it sounds hollow and not as heavy, The first Avengers comes to mind. That bass is mostly 30hz with nothing below and it sounds much different than FOTP.
I will try this!! I've done a lot of experimenting with filtering out the higher bass and leaving only the below 15hz stuff but not as much the other way around and definitely not with that scene.
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post #8547 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 01:45 PM
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Be careful with filtering though as sounds don’t feel or sound natural. If we listen to 10khz and above tones all I think of are emergency broadcast system warnings. Just high pitched annoying sounds but you wont see me not wanting 20khz extension even though those sounds are annoying alone.
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post #8548 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I bet because of room gain (for anyone new to this hobby, this gain begins around 25 Hz down at 12dB/octave) that "favors" sealed subs (carp's 9 sealed subs' outputs don't drop like a stone below tuning frequency), he has more ultra deep bass than anyone here and just doesn't know he has it and likes it.

Kidding aside @carp your counterpoint is excellent and of course welcome. I would add however which one is better perhaps depends very much on what you are playing.
***For conventional rock and classical where mid bass lays the foundation and provides the punch and rhythm, Orbit Shifter is king.
***For movies where actually ULF block busters are *still* being released, Blade Runner 2049 being latest example, that range of 10-30 Hz is critical to enjoyment IMHO and the JTR 2400/4000 pair are champions. Fact that the mid bass here even after any so-called "sacrifice" is still world class is cherry on top. Best of both worlds.

Interesting discussion, basically to me/IMHO JTR ULF could do both, but Orbit Shifter is more of a mid bass specialist perhaps? But bottom line is I would absolutely love to have both in my room. Ciao - I am heading to Los Angeles Audio Show for more fun https://thehomeentertainmentshow.com/ .
Blade Runner 2049 doesn't look to have that much content under 20hz, and the big bass hit at the start is in the 30's,so the OS LFU probably would hold it's own against the 2400 in this movie
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post #8549 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Blade Runner 2049 doesn't look to have that much content under 20hz, and the big bass hit at the start is in the 30's,so the OS LFU probably would hold it's own against the 2400 in this movie
I forgot how steep the roll off was on the graph of 2049. Yeah, just goes to show that a movie can sound great and give us the sense that it digs really deep when in fact it does not. It's pretty clear looking at the graph of the movie and the comparison data bass graph that the OS would smoke the 2400 in this movie.
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post #8550 of 13004 Old 06-02-2018, 04:12 PM
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What is the tune of the OS? Remember it is like having 4 sealed 18s at tune and above. The 2400 is like having 4 sealed at 10hz to maybe 16hz but only one 18 going up to crossover. For this movie is like comparing one vs 4 18s, no competition.

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