Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 291 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8701 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Throwing up my first REW FR for the 2400-10. Thought y'all might be interested. I'm pretty new to all this so things may not be perfect. This is with both of them flanking my TV..........I know, the classic setup may not be the best. This is with the subs hot and LFA max. Still getting the hang of REW and need to tweak a few things. Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Be gentle......I'm new.

Todd

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Originally Posted by torii View Post
the one poster which posted his rew of new 2400ulf (I apoligize for sounding dickish) didnt have any ulf on his rew...did anyone help him out?


He has really good ULF. Look at how much he has from 10-15 hz compared to 60 hz, pretty much dead even. The graph is deceiving because he has a huge peak centered at 32 hz. I would argue that this would be a heck of a lot of fun on most movies now days which drop off a cliff at 25-30 hz.

However, he does have that null around 20hz that needs to be addressed, and yes that peak probably does need to come down... right after he gives his buddy's a demo of Flight of the Phoenix, Interstellar, and almost every Marvel movie.
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post #8702 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
You're funny...

did I misread the graph? sry...


my stuff doesnt go to 10hz so Im not trying to be competitive

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post #8703 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:23 PM
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bear, you thinking the OS will close the gap on the 4000 at 16hz will not happen. The reason it is preferred is because it has monster spl from 20-120hz. I don’t who says the ULF is all the shake but they are wrong. I do know that in a proper room and subs the 10hz with EoT is as strong as the 15hz. You guys are killing me with listening to 10hz and under filtered out. As a said before do you all set a HP at 10-12 kHz because below that is all the action. Have you guys ever heard just 13khz-20khz tones? By themselves they are annoying but within a recording it sounds natural, with ULF it feels natural.

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post #8704 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:37 PM
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Yeah, I guess I made a big impression on torii.

Anyway, I’ve gotten some good feedback from @jamiebosco @Marc Alexander @chucky7 @MKtheater @imureh @mthomas47 but just haven’t been able to implement, test and measure everything yet. I’ll be sure to run the sweep down to 5 when I get a chance.

Thanks carp! It does sound pretty good but I’d like it to sound as good as I can get it.

Appreciate the help!

Todd
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post #8705 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
bear, you thinking the OS will close the gap on the 4000 at 16hz will not happen.
I'll share my reasoning here. It might not close all of it, but it WILL close alot of it. It's a fact. Exactly how much is the question. Check this out:




Ok. CAP4000 maximum possible output at 16 Hz: 116 dB. It doesn't go any higher than that, as it is using every drop of power the amp can supply. So output doesn't go any higher above the CEA2010 number captured. 116 dB. Period.

OS LFU. 16 Hz CEA2010 output: 101.5 dB. So the Cap4000 has 15 dB more output here, right? Wrong. The OS does not stop getting louder at 16 Hz when it reaches this output level. It keeps on going up to 109 dB, albeit with high distortion. Now we all know that this distortion will be greatly reduced in room(same as the Cap's 116 dB distortion will be lowered). But the point is, the apparent 15 dB difference is now down to 7 or so dB. That's a fact. It's still double the output, yes, but a far cry from 15 dB.

Now, we know both subs will benefit equally from room gain. That's understood. However, proper placement in room effectively lengthens the horn. This effectively lowers the tune of the horn, which as we know, provides a massive increase in output...up to 4x. Now will the OS get another 7 dB at 16 Hz due to this? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe less. Maybe more. But its a fact that there will be at least some increase to 16 Hz output since the horn will now extend lower in room. So it's a fact that there will be somewhere less than 7 dB difference in room, in real life conditions, between the two subs at 16 Hz.

This is the point I've been making, and I think it helps to explain how, despite what appears, to be a 15 dB difference in output at a frequency that is VERY noticeable when played at high levels(16 Hz), how the OS can be subjectively preferred when compared to the 4000. I understand that part of it is the output advantage the horn has up high. I don't dispute that. But I think part is that there is not as big of an output disparity at 16 Hz in room as CEA2010 would have some believe.

And this difference is much less than 15 dB CEA2010 shows.
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post #8706 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:42 PM
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I agree with ya bear

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post #8707 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Yeah, I guess I made a big impression on torii.

Anyway, I’ve gotten some good feedback from @jamiebosco @Marc Alexander @chucky7 @MKtheater @imureh @mthomas47 but just haven’t been able to implement, test and measure everything yet. I’ll be sure to run the sweep down to 5 when I get a chance.

Thanks carp! It does sound pretty good but I’d like it to sound as good as I can get it.

Appreciate the help!

Todd

I just expected a 10hz tune x2 sub to have rew fr alot higher like a tidal wave at tune my bad, and forums are for feedback...not emotional instability :P

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post #8708 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:46 PM
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I don’t, sorry but 100% distortion will still have a ton of distortion in room and adding that much distortion from a very clean sub will not make it sound better.
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post #8709 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:52 PM
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most subs sound ok and actually designed for distortion in mind. maybe things have changed...

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post #8710 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:56 PM
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The horn’s in room extension will be no greater than a Ported extending deeper than its tune in room, I have tried all the alignements. Whatever your room adds it adds to everything. Btw saying the OS LFU can play higher with higher distortion is misleading because it is all distortion. Yes it will be lowered but not nearly as much as you think. It is a single 18 under 20hz which is a good thing but saying it will magically caught up to two similar ported 18s will not happen.

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post #8711 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:58 PM
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Not that much distortion, common guys you are using numbers with 100% distortion which is not even the fundamental. So your 16hz is really 32 hz or what ever harmonic it is adding even more to the higher frequency output advantage.
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post #8712 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 05:59 PM
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I liked this article about sub distortion. https://hometheaterreview.com/why-su...er-distortion/


it is what I had learned 30 yrs ago.

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post #8713 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I just expected a 10hz tune x2 sub to have rew fr alot higher like a tidal wave at tune my bad, and forums are for feedback...not emotional instability :P
Any short comings in the graph are because of the user and room, not the subs. It wasn’t about showing off, I was looking for a little help to optimize the setup. I didn’t run the sweep for maximum effort, I had them hot because I didn’t know any better.

By the way, the FV25 was on my shortlist. I think it’s an awesome sub and I had a hard choice to make.

Todd
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post #8714 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:07 PM
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Liking distortion is preference. I can deal with about 10% THD from my subs and then it sounds too different beyond that. We are all different in what we like.

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post #8715 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Liking distortion is preference. I can deal with about 10% THD from my subs and then it sounds too different beyond that. We are all different in what we like.

.


I just thought the graph would/should look different...no more, no less...the science part is not anything I can reference...

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post #8716 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:17 PM
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can anyone teach me if distortion at 8hz matters as much at 20hz or 80 or 200? I know hearing plays a part...but at subwoofer output ranges does it matter?

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post #8717 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Any short comings in the graph are because of the user and room, not the subs. It wasn’t about showing off, I was looking for a little help to optimize the setup. I didn’t run the sweep for maximum effort, I had them hot because I didn’t know any better.

By the way, the FV25 was on my shortlist. I think it’s an awesome sub and I had a hard choice to make.

Todd
Hey Todd, can you post some pictures of your room showing your main seat and your sub location? If at all possible - if it were my room - I would move one or the other (sub or main seat).

The reason I say that is I don't like that null around 20hz, and you can't boost a null. The 33 hz centered peak can be brought down with EQ, so that isn't the issue IMO.
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post #8718 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
can anyone teach me if distortion at 8hz matters as much at 20hz or 80 or 200? I know hearing plays a part...but at subwoofer output ranges does it matter?
I would think not as much because you can't hear it at all. My guess is that too much distortion at 8hz would cause bad driver or amp sounds in a sealed sub and serious chuffing in a very low tuned monster ported sub.

MK knows more than I do about this.
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post #8719 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:35 PM
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most only can hear sub distortion after its too late...like driver clanking which has nothing to do with distortion imo from a hearing pov. its mechanical breakdown. Im willing to be taught more via link/article/sme.

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post #8720 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 06:47 PM
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Well at least the 2 captivators Chucky7 has , he pushes them to the max... more than the max... and at some point there is pushing the drivers over the limit !... however he’s had the 1400 for years and I heard it recently and sounds just as beastly as before without noises at normal max levels - I’d rather have a ported JTR sub because I have witnessed its endurance to Chuky’s torture/errr listening preference
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I heard /experienced the OS in a small living room, fkin Irene .. at max... I mean sure there was a lot of pressure and chest thumping... but I couldn’t really make much other details in the lows... I think it was just so fkin loud it wouldn’t let the eardrums vibrate at other close frequencies
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post #8722 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 07:00 PM
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i bring up distortion as my sub doubles its distortion as you get closer or louder than ref. from databass"Even the 120dB measurement which is maximum output for the FV25HP produces less than 19% THD over the 12-200Hz bandwidth. " 19% is low imo...

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post #8723 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
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I heard /experienced the OS in a small living room, fkin Irene .. at max... I mean sure there was a lot of pressure and chest thumping... but I couldn’t really make much other details in the lows... I think it was just so fkin loud it wouldn’t let the eardrums vibrate at other close frequencies
Irene is at 6hz, so the OS would be just like a single sealed 18" sub way down that low. 6hz is probably too low to get much of anything out of the 4000 as well, I didn't test that scene when I had it.

Chucky have you tried Irene? I wouldn't go too crazy with it since it's below port tune.
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post #8724 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Hey Todd, can you post some pictures of your room showing your main seat and your sub location? If at all possible - if it were my room - I would move one or the other (sub or main seat).

The reason I say that is I don't like that null around 20hz, and you can't boost a null. The 33 hz centered peak can be brought down with EQ, so that isn't the issue IMO.
Ok, here’s what I have to work with, 18x33x12 or 7,128^3. It’s a big rectangle with the listening area and MLP at the left side short side of the rectangle if your seated looking at the TV. It’s roughly 13 ft from the MLP to the speakers. The MLP is the couch in the middle position. Behind the curtain is a huge glass door and windows. On the other end are 2 stairwells going up and down with that little hallway going to the kitchen. The MLP really can’t be moved, WAF, but I can move the subs around some. I have huge open wall space without any absorbing material. My mother in law is great with fabric so I’m going to work on treatments in the future. We’re not great decorators. The MLP is right up against the back wall with the rear surrounds on the ceiling. So a big open 18x33 rectangle with 12 ft ceilings.

Todd

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post #8725 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
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Wait... Where is your center speaker?

BTW, to post pictures in a post, after you upload one to imgur.com, hover your cursor at the top right corner of the picture, move the cursor to the down arrow, click on 'shared links', then click on 'Copy' below 'BBCode (Forums)'. Now, you just need to paste the link (the content you just copied) in your post. You don't need to add anything (such as [img] or [/img]) to the link.

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post #8726 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 08:39 PM
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I like the setup...looks comfy.
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post #8727 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Wait... Where is your center speaker?

BTW, to post pictures in a post, after you upload one to imgur.com, hover your cursor at the top right corner of the picture, move the cursor to the down arrow, click on 'shared links', then click on 'Copy' below 'BBCode (Forums)'. Now, you just need to paste the link (the content you just copied) in your post. You don't need to add anything (such as [img] or [/img]) to the link.
Lol, it’s in there. Probably not in the best location either, but hey.............

Ok, I think that’s what I’m doing. I wasn’t adding those img. I’ll test that out next time.

Todd

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post #8728 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 08:47 PM
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I like the setup...looks comfy.
Thanks, it’s definitely comfy! Lots of movie watching and napping!

Todd

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post #8729 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 09:27 PM
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You want to make your system sound much better, move that shelf and put an identical speakers as a center. Sorry, posting from my phone.

I am sorry but I usually post from my computer so I can address the poster. Tori? I believe, a rhythmik sub with 19% distortion would be super clean in room, you are not hearing distortion! Some distortions sound good but there is still a level where it gets bad and all subs are different. My chase subs with 10% THD around like crap but my Danley DTS-10s or my eD av13s sound awesome with 10% THD. There is a point where the subs change their tonal quality because distortion is too high and this is where it becomes very subjective.
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post #8730 of 12680 Old 06-05-2018, 09:41 PM
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I love the symmetry! Even the pictures on the wall. The subs look so BA staring at you. I do kind of miss that since mine are all hidden now days. I used to have them exposed.

The first thing I would try is having them on the back wall sitting next to your couch. It looks like you have the room if you move some end tables. The subs could become your end tables if they measure better in those spots. It would probably measure better if you left one sub up front and moved one to the back wall but the look wouldn't be as nice. Still worth trying it though to see if the sound trumps the look.

Also, I would make sure that your mains are pulled forward a bit so that the subs aren't catching a reflection from the mains. Looks like they are in the pics.

MK is right about the center, it does make a big difference. However, one thing at a time right?
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