Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 12988 Old 12-25-2016, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by supergoon View Post
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No doubt I will be hearing that as well from my wife, the kids, the neighbors, and any passers-by within a few square miles



I was reading some of Chucky7's old posts and it seems his neighbor whose detached home is 30 ft away was complaining about the noise (that was the moment MUST...HAVE...THIS came to my mind LOL). These colossal 18" monsters are doing things that are hard for even seasoned, die-hard audiophiles (in the good sense of the word, ie many of us) to comprehend.

And you sir, could add 2 dB to all this nonsense . How could we not love a company that has the balls, er... singular vision, to do 40"x40" subwoofs? It's the true spirit of high-end audio, doing what's possible, and not what would sell the most number (although that probably wouldn't hurt too much :-)).
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #62 of 12988 Old 12-25-2016, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by metropol951 View Post
Quick post about my captivator 118HT. It arrived professionally packaged,in a heavy duty cardboard box with stiff foam on the inside. The custom finish is flawless. I used the foam to slide it along my hardwood floor. Put it in the spot where my JL audio e110 used to be. I listen at moderate levels,so last night i finally had a chance to watch a movie. I put in the force awakens and was grinning from ear to ear . It's awesome fills a large space that I have. Truthfully I am not sure I'll ever use it's full potential. It blows the e110 out of the water! I can't take measurements since I don't have a laptop. If anyone in San Antonio wants to swing by and take some measurements, let me know.



That looks like the same Qtr-Teak I got my subs in.

Jeff does great work!



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post #63 of 12988 Old 12-25-2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
That looks like the same Qtr-Teak I got my subs in.



Jeff does great work!









It absolutely is! I saw your cap 1400's and was impressed and inspired.


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post #64 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I was reading some of Chucky7's old posts and it seems his neighbor whose detached home is 30 ft away was complaining about the noise (that was the moment MUST...HAVE...THIS came to my mind LOL). These colossal 18" monsters are doing things that are hard for even seasoned, die-hard audiophiles (in the good sense of the word, ie many of us) to comprehend.

And you sir, could add 2 dB to all this nonsense . How could we not love a company that has the balls, er... singular vision, to do 40"x40" subwoofs? It's the true spirit of high-end audio, doing what's possible, and not what would sell the most number (although that probably wouldn't hurt too much :-)).

I totally agree that the JTR subs are articulate enough to become a hit in the audiophile market. They outperform audiophile subs way above their price points. Although JTR is well known among AVS Home Theater members, Jeff does not yet have much exposure to the High End Audio market. I'm talking to him about participating in the LA Audio Show this coming June to rectify that situation.

Take a look at the products listed below. The JTR subs (particularly the 4000ULF) represent a dramatically higher value and often a greater level of performance:



Avantgarde Basshorns $39,000 pair
($117,000 - full set of six)

http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/ba...roduct-en.html





Eminent Technology TRW-17 $22,000 - $26,000
($12,900 + amp, manifold and back wave chambers)

http://www.rotarywoofer.com





Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer $21,000

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/thors-hammer





JL Gotham V2 $15,000

http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-po...fers-gotham-v2





Paradigm Sub 2 $10,500

http://www.paradigm.com/products-cur.../page=overview





Danley Sound Labs TH221 $10,000+
"Cinemonster"

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/produ...-horns/th-221/





Legacy Goliath XD $9,950

http://legacyaudio.com/products/view...-xd-subwoofer/





Genelec 7073a $9,895

http://www.genelec.com/studio-monito...udio-subwoofer





THIEL SS4 $8,900

http://www.ecoustics.com/products/th...b-ss1-ss2-ss3/





Cabasse Santorin 38 $7,324

http://www.cabasse.com/en/collection...antorin-38-en/





Monitor Audio PL 215 II $6,995

http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/produ...m-ii/plw215-ii





VMPS VLA Series II $6,899

http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/subwoofers.htm





Velodine DD18+ $5,799

http://velodyneacoustics.com/subwoof...e-plus-18.html





RBH SX-1212PR $5,300

https://rbhsound.com/sv1212pr





German Physics The Subwoofer $4,635

http://www.german-physiks.com/legacy...-products.html





Funk Audio 18.3 $4,540

http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p10/Fu...er_-_18.3.html





Bowers & Wilkins DB1 $4,500

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speake...ofers/DB1.html





Klipsch Palladium 312W $4,000

http://www.klipsch.com/products/palladium-subwoofers





Martin Logan Balanced Force 212 $3,999

http://www.martinlogan.com/balancedforce/index.php





JTR Captivator 4000ULF $3,199

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-4000ulf/





Seaton Sound Subversive F2 $3,195
(Rosenut)

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...ferent-5509423





M&K Sound MX-250 $2,950

http://www.mksound.com/subwoofers/mx-250





Genesis G928 $2,600

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g928.html





Snell Acoustics ICS Sub24 $2,600

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...3dyukRIoO8u.97





JTR Captivator 218HT $2,298

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-218ht/





JTR Captivator 1400 $1,899

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator1400/





Vandersteen 2W $1,650

http://vandersteen.com/categories/subwoofers

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post #65 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
I totally agree that the JTR subs are articulate enough to become a hit in the audiophile market. They outperform audiophile subs way above their price points. Although JTR is well known among AVS Home Theater members, Jeff does not yet have much exposure to the High End Audio market. I'm talking to him about participating in the LA Audio Show this coming June to rectify that situation.


Another idea is to see if JTR and @Kal Rubinson of Stereophile have mutual interest - a favorable review in Stereophile would be like winning a (small) lottery. I happen to have same subwoof brand as Kalman (the lesser JL E112 to his Fathom 13?) and was going to suggest this once I have my Cap 1400. The LA Audio Show is a great idea but might not be cost-efficient enough for JTR; that crowd I don't think has high interest in extra-large diameter subwoofs yet since these monsters tend to "overpower" their audiophile cone/dome speakers I think :-).

I'm in awe of your 4 Caps - fantastic! Yes I did do extensive lurking/homework before deciding on JTR: narrowed my choice down to 3 favorite brands Seaton, Funk, and JTR. Then down to JTR because it's the only one of the 3, actually the only company period, to offer PORTED, high power, take-no-prisoner (33mm xmax) 18 inch driver at less than $2000.

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post #66 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Another idea is to see if JTR and Kal Rubinson of Stereophile have mutual interest - a favorable review in Stereophile would be like winning a (small) lottery. I happen to have same subwoof brand as Kalman (the lesser JL E112 to his Fathom 13?) and was going to suggest this once I have my Cap 1400.
Thanks for the thought but I am not considering doing any large subwoofer reviews in the foreseeable future.

Kal Rubinson

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post #67 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 11:40 AM
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Thanks for the thought but I am not considering doing any large subwoofer reviews in the foreseeable future.
We have subwoofers as small as 21"x21"x18" (Captivator S1).
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post #68 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 11:47 AM
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The way I understand it (anyone pls correct as needed): The max setting provides a flattest frequency response outdoor where subwoofers are meaured during testing. Once move indoors, room gain means this flat outdoor setting might be too much especially in small sealed room, etc., and if that's the case, either subjectively (too boomy) or objectively (not flat measurement indoor), the LF Adjust could be used. You could see this in the graph below: the max setting gives the flattest response outdoors.

Jeff actually suggests to start with the LF Adjust turned all the way down, take a measurement and adjust from there until you have a nice flat response. His explanation: Because subwoofers have more maximum output capability on the top end you gain headroom with the LF Adjust turned down. This way subwoof's bottom-end has more reserve to match higher headroom of top-end - I hope I make sense :-). Happy Holidays and hope this helps.
The 2017 line up uses a cut only filter for the LF Adjust that provides a larger range of adjustment for better in room tuning. We'll post measurements as soon as the weather warms up and we can get outdoors. Attached is a measurement of a 2017 Orbit Shifter LFU measured in our shop so it's not as smooth as an outdoor measurement.
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post #69 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
We have subwoofers as small as 21"x21"x18" (Captivator S1).
Everything is relative but I would not call that "small."

FWIW, I am not a devotee of home theater and use my systems primarily for music. As a result, my subwoofing needs are not as substantial as might be required for HT.

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post #70 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Everything is relative but I would not call that "small."

FWIW, I am not a devotee of home theater and use my systems primarily for music. As a result, my subwoofing needs are not as substantial as might be required for HT.
Maybe it is time for a new adventure

When did Stereophile put a restriction on the size of speakers they review ?

After reading Stereophile in 1986 , I eventually bought two VMPS original subwoofers , I think they are around 17 x22 x27 , definitely not the largest I saw reviewed .

A lot has changed in the subwoofer / speaker world since then ...

Before Brian Cheney of VMPS passed away , he saw the light and started installing much more capable drivers (TC sounds ) into his speakers/ subs .

Samsung 55 inch lcd Marantz sr5400
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JTR OS LFU (2016)
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post #71 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 01:36 PM
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Maybe it is time for a new adventure
There is always a new adventure.

Quote:
When did Stereophile put a restriction on the size of speakers they review ?
Never. It is my own restriction. Subs are not that important to me and I am trying to avoid products that I cannot lift or maneuver.

In my main system, I cannot move the two JL f113s by myself and, if I did, I would also have to move my main speakers which are nicely spiked to the floor. There is no place for anything larger.

In my small system, I am building an array of smaller subs because smooth FR over most of the room is more important to me than ultimate extension or sub-sonic response.

Find another reviewer, please.

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post #72 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The 2017 line up uses a cut only filter for the LF Adjust that provides a larger range of adjustment for better in room tuning. We'll post measurements as soon as the weather warms up and we can get outdoors. Attached is a measurement of a 2017 Orbit Shifter LFU measured in our shop so it's not as smooth as an outdoor measurement.
Hi Jeff - so mine from march 2016 have cut and boost?
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post #73 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Kal; I understand. Now that I think about it, it's actually Larry Greenhill who have reviewed a few of similar type subwoofers for Stereophile. "Somehow" your name came to my mind ; sorry for the trouble.

At any rate, I think these deep bass specialists are probably better reviewed in a hometheater magazine anyway.

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post #74 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 02:10 PM
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Hi Jeff - so mine from march 2016 have cut and boost?
Yours is just like the one Data-Bass tested.

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Your's is just like the one Data-Bass tested.
Thanks!
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post #76 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 05:56 PM
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At any rate, I think these deep bass specialists are probably better reviewed in a hometheater magazine anyway.
I agree but Larry does like big subs.

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post #77 of 12988 Old 12-26-2016, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
40 inch size subwoofer box reminds me very much of old style ultra high-end audio companies (Thiel, Wilson, etc.), owned by single person with singular vision. The goal is perhaps less about matching what other people are doing and what you want, more about what HE wants you to want :-), which seems to be making the most powerful subwoofers on the planet. Basically: this is what I do, these are the numbers, take it or leave it. Thankfully he does seem to think of "normal" people and make smaller boxes LOL like Cap 118HT and Cap 1400. Ok maybe only S1 is small.

For anyone new and shopping around, if you have any doubt about this goes to this page http://www.data-bass.com/systems, look at the column that says 16 hz, and compare JTR's numbers with others (bigger is, this time, better) :-).

When you look at 10 Hz output on data-Bass.com, Jeff's subs are two of the top ten systems. The Cap 4000ULF is ranked number one beating the ZOD Audio M.A.U.L. which is a one-of-a-kind $10,000 custom build. Except for the $9,000 Paradigm Signature Sub 2, all the rest of the top ten subs at 10 Hz are Large Low Tuned DIY designs.





When you look at 50 Hz output on data-Bass.com, Jeff's subs are six of the top fifteen systems. The Orbit Shifter is ranked number two just under the $10,000 custom ZOD Audio M.A.U.L. Again all the rest of the top fifteen subs at 50 Hz are Large Low Tuned DIY designs.

Jeff's subs are truly world class, and anyone not sure about buying a new sub sight unseen off the internet should feel secure they're getting the best performance value on the market!


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post #78 of 12988 Old 12-27-2016, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ LOL didn't know when you click on the Data-Bass chart, it then sorts data in descending order. I've been doing "manually" by writing down the numbers .
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Yours is just like the one Data-Bass tested.
Hi Jeff,
When we add a second (or more) of the 2017 CAP 1400s to our existing 2016 CAP 1400, will the SQ match well or do you advise something else? Thanks in advance.
Brian
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post #80 of 12988 Old 12-27-2016, 09:39 AM
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Hi Jeff,
When we add a second (or more) of the 2017 CAP 1400s to our existing 2016 CAP 1400, will the SQ match well or do you advise something else? Thanks in advance.
Brian
The 2015-2017 are very close. The tuning and cabinet volume are the same and the sound quality is very similar. The 2017 has a little more than a decibel more peak output on the bottomend.
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post #81 of 12988 Old 12-27-2016, 04:05 PM
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The 2015-2017 are very close. The tuning and cabinet volume are the same and the sound quality is very similar. The 2017 has a little more than a decibel more peak output on the bottomend.

Hi Jeff with buying dual 118 will shipping price be doubled? or same as buying single 118?
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post #82 of 12988 Old 12-27-2016, 05:25 PM
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Hi Jeff with buying dual 118 will shipping price be doubled? or same as buying single 118?
There might be some savings with shipping two. Shot me an email and I'll get you a quote.
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post #83 of 12988 Old 12-27-2016, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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The "lf adjust" is a cut only filter and is there to tailor the subwoofer's lowend response to the room gain of the room it is being installed into. With the "lf adjust" all the way up it will give you a flat response outdoors and with it all the way down it will give you a flat response is a small sealed room. Because subwoofers have more maximum output capability on the topend you gain headroom with the "lf adjust" turned down. I would start with the "lf adjust" turned all the way down, take a measurement and adjust from there until you have a nice flat response. In our 16'x18'x8' demo room we ended up with the "lf adjust" at 1/4 the way up.

Thanks for the explanation. While I understand the process, I do find the above step somehow so completely "un-natural" for us so-called bassheads.
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post #84 of 12988 Old 12-27-2016, 07:49 PM
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Thanks for the explanation. While I understand the process, I do find the above step somehow so completely "un-natural" for us so-called bassheads.
LOL. Yeah, kinda like not cranking up the gain knob all the way.
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post #85 of 12988 Old 12-28-2016, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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SVS PB13 Ultra is a great subwoofer - likely a "best seller" with its outstanding combination of performance and cost, $2000. So how does JTR Captivator 118HT compare to PB13 strictly by CEA2010 performance metrics? The answer: Very close at 20 hz and below, then above 20 hz, 118HT is better by 2 dB.

The key though is the cost difference, $1100 (plus shipping) for 118HT versus $2000 (including shipping) for PB13 Ultra. A huge difference and the reason why so many people think JTR 118HT is an absolute steal with the current discount. The $1100 cost is so tantalizing because now it allows you to double up, and for $2200, own a TRULY world class subwoofer system unlikely to be surpassed. It even causes me, a JTR Cap 1400 owner, to have second thought LOL (Kidding Jeff!).

Note: there are other considerations such as nice glossy finish of PB13, possible subjective sound difference that may favor one or the other in any given room or for any personal taste. This is strictly a performance/cost evaluation, which heavily favors the JTR 118HT. Therefore countdown warning: you have 4 days to pull the trigger .




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post #86 of 12988 Old 12-28-2016, 02:13 PM
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For those wondering about the LF Adjust on 2015~2016 Cap 1400s (and perhaps other JTR subs), I asked Jeff about it and it's shape, referencing the Room adjust on a sealed ID sub. This is what Jeff said:

It's +/- 6 dB. The shape is different because the Captivator 1400 is a vented design with a high pass filter so the LF Adjust doesn't boost anything below 17 Hz.

Hope this helps.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #87 of 12988 Old 12-28-2016, 04:41 PM
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Keep in mind Jeff can do custom finished too. That 118ht in piano black is still cheaper than svs. I'm glad I didn't do my 1400s in piano black though, have 11 b&w cm speakers in paino black and it is a smudge and dust magnet and also scratches very easy. My subs get moved around a lot and lay their sides sometimes too and I'm happy with the standard finish.
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post #88 of 12988 Old 12-28-2016, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
For those wondering about the LF Adjust on 2015~2016 Cap 1400s (and perhaps other JTR subs), I asked Jeff about it and it's shape, referencing the Room adjust on a sealed ID sub. This is what Jeff said:

It's +/- 6 dB. The shape is different because the Captivator 1400 is a vented design with a high pass filter so the LF Adjust doesn't boost anything below 17 Hz.

Hope this helps.

Chucky, curious and question please: so how is it different from 2017 Cap 1400??

2017 Cap 1400: all the way to the right is max (for outdoor flat measurement), all the way to the left is minimum/cut (for small room, etc.).
2016 Cap 1400: ??
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post #89 of 12988 Old 12-28-2016, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MikeR397 View Post
Keep in mind Jeff can do custom finished too. That 118ht in piano black is still cheaper than svs. I'm glad I didn't do my 1400s in piano black though, have 11 b&w cm speakers in paino black and it is a smudge and dust magnet and also scratches very easy. My subs get moved around a lot and lay their sides sometimes too and I'm happy with the standard finish.

Yep it's clear what most of us, including me, would pick given the choice, but I just want to be fair in the price comparison. Almost half the price, with better max burst output. Customers benefit from this significant advantage because JTR is a small, nimble, company with low overhead, and its head engineer is singularly driven by big performance number and has the talent to achieve it :-). In some way we almost shouldn't want JTR to become too successful (Just kidding, Jeff).

The fact that it is a ported 18" driver in a large box doesn't hurt either I guess :-).

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Last edited by cannga; 12-28-2016 at 10:21 PM.
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post #90 of 12988 Old 12-28-2016, 09:33 PM
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Ok, enough sitting on the fence...I will be joining the JTR family with a 118HT in Feb . Hope to add a second one later on in the year.
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