Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 308 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9211 of 13412 Old 07-18-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by psychdoctor View Post
Are those theater seats the Palliser media? BTW, I am still courting the idea of 4000ULF only....You don't make my decision any easier...
They are Pulaski Churchill HT recliners sold at Costco for $399.99 after instant rebate...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/32-the...l#post39627098
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post #9212 of 13412 Old 07-18-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
They are Pulaski Churchill HT recliners sold at Costco for $399.99 after instant rebate...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/32-the...l#post39627098
LOL, I know where my HT seats are coming from now! Love me some Costco.......where else can you get an all beef hotdog and a drink for $1.50 while you spend $500 on a lifetime supply of flax seed!?!?

Todd
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post #9213 of 13412 Old 07-18-2018, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
LOL, I know where my HT seats are coming from now! Love me some Costco.......where else can you get an all beef hotdog and a drink for $1.50 while you spend $500 on a lifetime supply of flax seed!?!?

Todd
Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news...

Those Pulaski HT recliners have been AWOL since 2017... I haven't seen anything comparable in the past 18 months.

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post #9214 of 13412 Old 07-18-2018, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
End of the year? Go put it nearfield! Or are you plan on selling it? Or perhaps another 4000ulf on other side of tv? You know you want it...even if you don't need it! Gonna practice what you preach in here. HAHA
Well, I could just put the 1400 behind the MLP w/o knowing what it does to the FR...

I know it actually worsens the FR if put on the other side of TV...

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Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
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post #9215 of 13412 Old 07-18-2018, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, I could just put the 1400 behind the MLP w/o knowing what it does to the FR...

I know it actually worsens the FR if put on the other side of TV...

Hi Chucky,

I would give it a try if I were you. If it doesn't work well, what have you lost? There is a lot of performance disparity between the two subs, and you may not be able to resolve that much output difference just with distance. But, if you put the Cap 1400 within a foot of your listening position, room modes will have much less effect on it, and obviously it will generate more TR.

I think it would be worth a try from the standpoint of bass envelopment, and it's a shame to have a nice subwoofer just sitting there, even though you don't really need more output or TR. You also might get lucky with respect to the frequency response. You won't know until you try.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #9216 of 13412 Old 07-18-2018, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news...

Those Pulaski HT recliners have been AWOL since 2017... I haven't seen anything comparable in the past 18 months.
Wait til right before Christmas. They magically reappear, or something very similar will. COSTCO has only so much floor space, so stuff like this gets bumped for seasonal patio furniture and outdoor things. It’s very formulaic.

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post #9217 of 13412 Old 07-18-2018, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by djreef View Post
Wait til right before Christmas. They magically reappear, or something very similar will. COSTCO has only so much floor space, so stuff like this gets bumped for seasonal patio furniture and outdoor things. It’s very formulaic.

DJ
People waited for them last Thanksgiving... Nothing...

Manual/pushback recliners? Yes.
Reclining sofa/loveseat with power recliner and head rest? Yes.
Power leather HT recliners with cup holders and tray table? Nope.

These HT seatings really are niche items.

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post #9218 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 06:39 AM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

The amount of tactical response I get with my v1801 sub behind my couch directly is seriously probably equivalent to three or four farfield v3601. Jump on that chucky!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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post #9219 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
The amount of tactical response I get with my v1801 sub behind my couch directly is seriously probably equivalent to three or four v3601. Jump on that chucky!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"tactical response", do you need a kevlar vest for these subs? Damn, I need to go visit my local military surplus store.

Speaking of which, I picked up 13 Hours and watched it last week............that has some nice gunshot scenes! Low gunshot effects are becoming some of my favorite sounds.

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post #9220 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, I could just put the 1400 behind the MLP w/o knowing what it does to the FR...

I know it actually worsens the FR if put on the other side of TV...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Chucky,

I would give it a try if I were you. If it doesn't work well, what have you lost? There is a lot of performance disparity between the two subs, and you may not be able to resolve that much output difference just with distance. But, if you put the Cap 1400 within a foot of your listening position, room modes will have much less effect on it, and obviously it will generate more TR.

I think it would be worth a try from the standpoint of bass envelopment, and it's a shame to have a nice subwoofer just sitting there, even though you don't really need more output or TR. You also might get lucky with respect to the frequency response. You won't know until you try.

Regards,
Mike
Nearfield can cause issues without independent delay controls so definitely keep that in mind when attempting. If you have a good way to to delay the nearfield to match the distance to your 4000, that should help things tremendously.

I've also learned that level matching the nearfield to the main sub makes the nearfield feel and sound totally overbearing, almost as if the main sub is no longer needed. I have found two solutions:

1) Dropping the nearfield sub several dB lower than the main sub.
2) Limiting the nearfield's freq. response to only the bottom half of the bass spectrum, say 30hz and below. This method is what I use now.

Bottom line, just plopping a nearfield sub in place and pressing play is not the proper way to truly integrate the sub into your system properly, contrary to popular belief.
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post #9221 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Nearfield can cause issues without independent delay controls so definitely keep that in mind when attempting. If you have a good way to to delay the nearfield to match the distance to your 4000, that should help things tremendously.

I've also learned that level matching the nearfield to the main sub makes the nearfield feel and sound totally overbearing, almost as if the main sub is no longer needed. I have found two solutions:

1) Dropping the nearfield sub several dB lower than the main sub.
2) Limiting the nearfield's freq. response to only the bottom half of the bass spectrum, say 30hz and below. This method is what I use now.

Bottom line, just plopping a nearfield sub in place and pressing play is not the proper way to truly integrate the sub into your system properly, contrary to popular belief.
I have my nearfield and farfield about same spl calibration. I guess I will try lowering down the nearfield...or increase the farfield 2 or 3db!

Also I have sub crossed at 100hz for all speakers and subs....if all 3 subs were connected via minidsp...can you still use mini dsp to try to lower the nearfield to 80hz or is that best using the xover on back of the nearfield sub itself?

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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I know it actually worsens the FR if put on the other side of TV...
Time for a new AVR. Seriously, with all of those fire powers, you need to have them properly calibrated.
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post #9223 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I have my nearfield and farfield about same spl calibration. I guess I will try lowering down the nearfield...or increase the farfield 2 or 3db!

Also I have sub crossed at 100hz for all speakers and subs....if all 3 subs were connected via minidsp...can you still use mini dsp to try to lower the nearfield to 80hz or is that best using the xover on back of the nearfield sub itself?
Personal preference for sure tho bud... I really liked getting slammed by the nearfield for a while but that wore off eventually. I wanted a more "Need it when it's needed" type approach which is how I settled on my settings atm. You may very well decide you like it how you have it now.
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post #9224 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Nearfield can cause issues without independent delay controls so definitely keep that in mind when attempting. If you have a good way to to delay the nearfield to match the distance to your 4000, that should help things tremendously.

I've also learned that level matching the nearfield to the main sub makes the nearfield feel and sound totally overbearing, almost as if the main sub is no longer needed. I have found two solutions:

1) Dropping the nearfield sub several dB lower than the main sub.
2) Limiting the nearfield's freq. response to only the bottom half of the bass spectrum, say 30hz and below. This method is what I use now.
I utilize nearfields to bolster midbass TR (tactile transducers for ULF). I even filter out 30Hz and below. I go by your method #1 .

Having more TR allows me to lower MV a bit which helps preserve hearing (especially my 5-year-old's).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I have my nearfield and farfield about same spl calibration. I guess I will try lowering down the nearfield...or increase the farfield 2 or 3db!

Also I have sub crossed at 100hz for all speakers and subs....if all 3 subs were connected via minidsp...can you still use mini dsp to try to lower the nearfield to 80hz or is that best using the xover on back of the nearfield sub itself?
2-3 dB deferential has been the magic number for me.

On the Speakerpower amps, engaging the x-over changes the DSP delay (so you'd need to time-align again). You should experiment with x-over points using your ear-meter and butt-meter. 100Hz is a good place to start for maximizing midbass.
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post #9225 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 02:17 PM
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In Chucky's situation, even without an AVR (or a miniDSP) to help me calibrate the subs, I might do something similar to what Marc is suggesting for the Cap 1400. I might put the LFA at minimum, or close to it for that subwoofer, and just let it give me more mid-bass and chest punch, while the Cap 4000 continues to handle the low-frequencies.

A lot of the fun part of the hobby for me is experimenting to find out what works and what we like. I honestly don't know how well the Cap 1400 will work right behind the chair, and how much Chucky will like it compared to just using his Cap 4000. But, I know a way for him to find out.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #9226 of 13412 Old 07-19-2018, 02:22 PM
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Yep personal preference for sure I think. I even ran my VNFs higher than FFs there for a long time and loved it because I was chasing the most slam possible and it would deliver like this. Now I’m slowly heading the other way a little bit I think lol. Not that I don’t want a lot of slam delivered from the subs right behind me, it’s just I feel something is missing a little bit if the FF’s aren’t contributing enough as well. A fullness and weight I guess you could say and something else that’s hard to put in words. ATM, My FFs and VNFs are about the same SPL level now crossed at 90hz. Seems to be a real nice blend at the moment, I may eventually prefer VNFs at a lower level or LP’d lower as well like Beast.

@ereed , if your FR is pretty decent on your VNF sub(s) as well as your FF’s on their own, it’s pretty easy to check out how it sounds and feels with different level settings between the two If you’ve got holes somewhere in the FR (especially if it’s an important one) on each FF or VNF by themselves though, it makes it a little tougher to do.

In a nutshell, this is the diff I’ve found with the VNFs ran hotter than the FFs (at least with my moderate sub system compared to some around here and in my room I’m in now, as well as the living room I was previously in):

1. Usually more slam/impact and TR with a thinner less weightier sound, allowing subs to be ran hotter before they become offensive to the ears sound wise (even with a very similar FR as the FFs). Nice if you’re looking for more feel but not wanting it to sound like more SPL’s.

2. Can sound like it missing a little something though if FFs are not contributing enough.

This is the diff I’ve found with the FFs ran hotter than the VNFs:

1. Pretty much the opposite of 1 above, but still good.
2. Kind of like 2 up above, can sound, but mainly feel like its missing something as well, at least if you are used to and like what VNFs bring to the party.

I’m used to and like having VNFs blast me and used to even use an MBM right behind me chest level to bring on the chest slam even more. But like I mentioned up above, maybe I’m mellowing out some and am starting to want and like a little more balanced sound and weight to go with what the VNFs bring, IDK lol. Even Stevens on the levels of FFs and VNFs is what I’m digging at the moment but may continue to change some. Cool things is, it’s pretty easy to change

Just my 2 cents from my experiences so far. I will say though, sooooooo glad i tried VNF, and could never go back to FF's alone With some patience and messing with it, you can pretty much dial in what you want with both FF's and VNF's if your room isn't just terrible. Mine rooms haven't been the best for sure, but still doable.

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post #9227 of 13412 Old 07-20-2018, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
If you have a good way to to delay the nearfield to match the distance to your 4000, that should help things tremendously.
Interesting discussion. Anyway, either the "phase setting" or "delay setting" would accomplish this right?

Is there a "bad" way to delay? (Real question, not being sarcastic.).

Regards, Can
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post #9228 of 13412 Old 07-21-2018, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Interesting discussion. Anyway, either the "phase setting" or "delay setting" would accomplish this right?

Is there a "bad" way to delay? (Real question, not being sarcastic.).

Hi Can,

The phase setting and the delay setting are a little different, but I don't want to even attempt to explain the difference. Here is a link to an excellent discussion where a number of people did attempt to explain the difference--with varying degrees of success. The thread also has links to other articles and examples that you may find interesting.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-distance.html

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #9229 of 13412 Old 07-21-2018, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks @mthomas47 , that is an excellent thread and I could see why you don't even want to dip your toe in the water . The topic is indeed a lot more complicated and thought provoking than I thought.

Now I remember, one example of the difference (like you I won't even attempt to explain anything :-)):
1. The phase shift dial was important when we integrated main to subwoofer in the old days of integrating subwoofer with main for music.
2. The delay dial is useful nowadays with multiple subwoofers coming of one single LFE output. The subwoofers are at varying distance to MLE and hence delay is necessary.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
>>>>
Its not the same thing. The distance setting for a sub is no different than setting the distance for other speakers. Those distance settings are so the sound from each speaker reach the seat at the proper interval of time. The phase switch 0,180, or a rotary 0~180 is to set the piston action of the sub driver to the same polarity of the main drivers.
>>>>

That's exactly what I said in my first post. Your point is?
From a technical standpoint a polarity change and a time align change will both result in a 180 degree phase shift, the difference being that a polarity change will result in 180 degrees of phase shift at every frequency, while a time align change will result in 180 degrees of phase shift at one frequency, with varying degrees of shift at other frequencies, based on their wavelengths.
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post #9230 of 13412 Old 07-22-2018, 10:05 AM
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Guys, I re-ran my room calibration after swapping my sub cables for better ones plus it's been almost a year since calibrating the last time. I felt like things were getting boomy (breaking in??? Impact of the cable change? who knows).


Anyway, have a look at the results attached. The green line is just the LFE channel, the red is both my fronts (set small) and the sub.


What is puzzling me is the dip from 35 to 60 hz on the green line (both fronts and LFE). There is a much smaller dip on the LFE only line but when combined, the dip is exaggerated. My crossover is set to 80hz, not sure what the slope should look like from my LR. Is the signal from the LR that strong at 60 to cause this type of interference?


I'm pretty happy with the left side of the graph
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post #9231 of 13412 Old 07-22-2018, 11:03 AM
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I think I speak for everyone here..........it’s clearly obvious you need another 2400.

Amiright!?

Todd
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post #9232 of 13412 Old 07-22-2018, 02:56 PM
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I think I speak for everyone here..........it’s clearly obvious you need another 2400.

Amiright!?

Todd
Fail
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
I think I speak for everyone here..........it’s clearly obvious you need another 2400.

Amiright!?

Todd
Hahaha. That didn't take long to solve.
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post #9234 of 13412 Old 07-22-2018, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
Guys, I re-ran my room calibration after swapping my sub cables for better ones plus it's been almost a year since calibrating the last time. I felt like things were getting boomy (breaking in??? Impact of the cable change? who knows).


Anyway, have a look at the results attached. The green line is just the LFE channel, the red is both my fronts (set small) and the sub.


What is puzzling me is the dip from 35 to 60 hz on the green line (both fronts and LFE). There is a much smaller dip on the LFE only line but when combined, the dip is exaggerated. My crossover is set to 80hz, not sure what the slope should look like from my LR. Is the signal from the LR that strong at 60 to cause this type of interference?


I'm pretty happy with the left side of the graph
Yes, the mains and subs can interfere. You should be able to resolve this simply by adjusting the sub distance in your AVR. Aka SDT - Sub Distance Tweak

https://www.scribd.com/document/3357...surement-Tools

This needs to be done after running most auto-REQs.
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post #9235 of 13412 Old 07-22-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Yes, the mains and subs can interfere. You should be able to resolve this simply by adjusting the sub distance in your AVR. Aka SDT - Sub Distance Tweak

https://www.scribd.com/document/3357...surement-Tools

This needs to be done after running most auto-REQs.

I adjusted the distance the last time and smoothed out the response quite a bit. I'll have another look at that.


I unplugged the power to my tower speaker amps, basically making them small monitors. That reduced the trench by 6 db (see attached).


I guess I'm surprised that the room correction algoritm didn't account for this.



Good news is I watched a couple movies and listened to some music and I like it MUCH better without my main subs running. The 2400 gives me all the bass I need so it may be time to move on from my tower speakers...
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post #9236 of 13412 Old 07-22-2018, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
I think I speak for everyone here..........it’s clearly obvious you need another 2400.

Amiright!?

Todd

STOP! I don't need any more temptation!
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post #9237 of 13412 Old 07-22-2018, 08:17 PM
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I would keep on tweaking til I have no nulls under xover point...40-60hz is alot of missing sound...most music thats where the deep bass is
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #9238 of 13412 Old 07-23-2018, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
I adjusted the distance the last time and smoothed out the response quite a bit. I'll have another look at that.

I unplugged the power to my tower speaker amps, basically making them small monitors. That reduced the trench by 6 db (see attached).

I guess I'm surprised that the room correction algoritm didn't account for this.


Good news is I watched a couple movies and listened to some music and I like it MUCH better without my main subs running. The 2400 gives me all the bass I need so it may be time to move on from my tower speakers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
STOP! I don't need any more temptation!

Hi,

Unfortunately, the temptation is always lurking out there, just waiting to spring when your guard is down. All kidding aside, I think that there is a limit to what room correction can do with an uneven frequency response from a single subwoofer. I know that some people are able to get a pretty good FR from a single sub, but I think that is more the exception than the rule.

I think your ears have to be the judge of what you actually like (and not an FR graph) but I am surprised that you like the new FR better than the one you showed earlier with the green line. There, it seemed as if all you had to do was play with the distance, to improve things nearer the crossover. Here, you have quite a wide drop-off between about 30 and 60Hz. If you have tried other potential subwoofer locations to arrive at the one you have now, the only other thing I can think to try is to put your subwoofer in the nearfield. That might help to take the room out of the equation a little more.

Long-term, I think that you probably do need to be thinking of adding a second subwoofer to give your room EQ a little better native response to work with.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #9239 of 13412 Old 07-23-2018, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Unfortunately, the temptation is always lurking out there, just waiting to spring when your guard is down. All kidding aside, I think that there is a limit to what room correction can do with an uneven frequency response from a single subwoofer. I know that some people are able to get a pretty good FR from a single sub, but I think that is more the exception than the rule.

I think your ears have to be the judge of what you actually like (and not an FR graph) but I am surprised that you like the new FR better than the one you showed earlier with the green line. There, it seemed as if all you had to do was play with the distance, to improve things nearer the crossover. Here, you have quite a wide drop-off between about 30 and 60Hz. If you have tried other potential subwoofer locations to arrive at the one you have now, the only other thing I can think to try is to put your subwoofer in the nearfield. That might help to take the room out of the equation a little more.

Long-term, I think that you probably do need to be thinking of adding a second subwoofer to give your room EQ a little better native response to work with.

Regards,
Mike

Sorry for the confusion Mike, the green line in the first graph is the LFE channel all by itself (no LR).


The red line in the first and the blue line in the second are LR and tower subs powered.


The red line in the second graph is the LR and 2400 with the tower subs disconnected.


The more I think about it, I need to go back and update the EQ in my Mini DSP before going much further. The first time I created the EQ, I couldn't figure out how to play just the LFE channel through REW, which I'm sure was battling the tower subs. Now that I figured out how to send at test signal only to the LFE channel, I'm sure I can create a much better room EQ for the 2400.
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post #9240 of 13412 Old 07-24-2018, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
Sorry for the confusion Mike, the green line in the first graph is the LFE channel all by itself (no LR).


The red line in the first and the blue line in the second are LR and tower subs powered.


The red line in the second graph is the LR and 2400 with the tower subs disconnected.


The more I think about it, I need to go back and update the EQ in my Mini DSP before going much further. The first time I created the EQ, I couldn't figure out how to play just the LFE channel through REW, which I'm sure was battling the tower subs. Now that I figured out how to send at test signal only to the LFE channel, I'm sure I can create a much better room EQ for the 2400.
How do you like the Cap 2400? Any second thoughts on not getting the Cap 4000ULF?

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