Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 317 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9481 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Right


He is not looking for the lowest extension.


Lol. I glossed over the “not”. I was wondering why he changed but figured he had been hanging around the JTR thread long enough.


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post #9482 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 11:15 AM
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I just heard from Jeff regarding the amplifiers with the new DSP which has auto input select, advanced auto turn on and even lower noise floor.

JTR has been slowly rolling them out during the last couple of months. The amps without the input select switch (RCA/XLR toggle) have the new DSP.

People have been receiving the subs without the input select switch since middle of May.

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post #9483 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I just heard from Jeff regarding amplifiers with the new DSP which has auto input select, advanced auto turn on and even lower noise floor.

JTR have been slowly rolling them out the last couple months. The amps without the input select switch have the new DSP.

People have been receiveing JTR subs without the input select switch since middle of May.

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Thanks for the follow up Chucky

I just got off the phone with FedEx, scheduled delivery for Monday! I'll be sure to post pictures and impressions! I think Lenns is receiving his today so hopefully he can chime in soon as well

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post #9484 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I would say at least 110dB at 10Hz.

I have measured 117dB at 10Hz in my room.

Looking at this ^, you are heavily compressed with 117db at 10hz. I say you are about 113-114db at 10hz.
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post #9485 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@mthomas47 @torii and anyone with variable tune ported subs I challenge you to listen to your favorite music with your subs in max output mode vs max extension. For me, there is an appreciable increase is SQ even for tracks that don't extend below 30Hz.
I'd love to hear others' experiences.
I have been saying this all along for a while now and folks don’t seem to agree there is an improvement in SQ going with a deeper extension mode/sub since the content is not there. IME, There is a sense of 3D/more spacial sound in deeper extension mode that is not there with a higher tuned mode/sub.
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post #9486 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Looking at this ^, you are heavily compressed with 117db at 10hz. I say you are about 113-114db at 10hz.
Yeah.

Considering how little my Pioneer SC1222-K contributes to my FR, that's not too shabby from a $3500 sub in a non-dedicated HT area.

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post #9487 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 03:14 PM
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^^^

Since this issue is still alive, I would like to present a little different perspective. Chucky's compression graphs show that his very low-frequencies are actually higher than his mid-bass frequencies, due to the combination of strong low-frequency response from his Cap 4000, and due to the significant low-frequency room gain he is getting in his room. Obviously, to anyone who hasn't been paying attention over the last couple of years, he really likes loud low-bass sounds and tactile sensations. But, as noted by an earlier poster, it isn't really necessary to "hear" 10Hz frequencies in equilibrium with other frequencies, anyway.

That is partly because we don't really hear 10Hz frequencies to start with. Instead, we hear some extra bass weight, and we feel ULF tactile sensations. And, there is some research that indicates that we can feel low-frequency tactile sensations at significantly lower SPL's than we can hear them. Where ported subwoofers are concerned, that is partly because the very low-frequency TR isn't created solely by SPL, but is also the product of air moving through the ports. Air displacement, such as from an explosion, or thunder due to a lightning strike, is largely responsible for the tactile ULF sensation we feel. (This isn't port wind as a distinct physical phenomenon that I am talking about. We don't have to directly feel the wind from the ports to experience the ULF TR that air moving through the ports contributes.)

All of that is to say that I don't think there is any sort of fixed formula for determining how much SPL at 10Hz someone will need in order to hear sufficient low-bass weight, and to feel sufficient low-bass tactile sensations. Particularly with the big ported JTR subwoofers, I think that the tactile sensations would tend to be pretty strong anyway, with the right low-bass material, as the subwoofer volume was increased.

But, ultimately, I think it is going to be a YMMV issue as to how much low-bass SPL will be enough for a particular individual. That's why I think it's a very good idea to really push existing subwoofers, before upgrading, as a way to determine how much more low-bass SPL we are actually looking for.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 08-17-2018 at 03:24 PM.
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post #9488 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 03:38 PM
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^^^^^^It is apparent, abundantly so, that no matter how much low bass tactile sensations our subs produce, it ain't enough and we all want MORE!!!! OK, maybe no all of us, but a pretty damn large percentage of Bassheads do.

I wanted to share a personal experience with my subs. While I don't recall the exact/specific movie (it was several involved) but I began to feel a sensation of panic of chest tightness along with a feeling of breathlessness. It was quite strange and a tad startling to think it may be possible that to some degree the subs ULF energy was interacting with my body to create these strange and unexplainable sensations. I have some unusual materials in my body that could be causing some type of sympathetic vibration. I can reproduce this sensation by playing a demo worthy movie or music and cranking up the sub trims and MV. There are a few specific bass heavy scenes that when played at higher than normal Volume will make me feel agitated, on edge and ready to flee the area. Like some wired sense that makes me very uneasy and unsettled.

I know this sounds kind of crazy, and perhaps it is, and I am! But the "Dragon Sisters" do really Scare me some times!!!!

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post #9489 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
^^^^^^It is apparent, abundantly so, that no matter how much low bass tactile sensations our subs produce, it ain't enough and we all want MORE!!!! OK, maybe no all of us, but a pretty damn large percentage of Bassheads do.

I wanted to share a personal experience with my subs. While I don't recall the exact/specific movie (it was several involved) but I began to feel a sensation of panic of chest tightness along with a feeling of breathlessness. It was quite strange and a tad startling to think it may be possible that to some degree the subs ULF energy was interacting with my body to create these strange and unexplainable sensations. I have some unusual materials in my body that could be causing some type of sympathetic vibration. I can reproduce this sensation by playing a demo worthy movie or music and cranking up the sub trims and MV. There are a few specific bass heavy scenes that when played at higher than normal Volume will make me feel agitated, on edge and ready to flee the area. Like some wired sense that makes me very uneasy and unsettled.

I know this sounds kind of crazy, and perhaps it is, and I am! But the "Dragon Sisters" do really Scare me some times!!!!
Weird indeed. I get the exact same sensations you just described from time to time, but not from ULF energy like yourself. Until now, I haven’t been able to put my finger on what causes these sensations for myself.
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post #9490 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 10:10 PM
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Is it just me or does the Cap 2400/ULF not really exist in real life? I can't seem to find even ONE video of it on YouTube, that's crazy!
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post #9491 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 10:49 PM
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Two questions:
1. Will two new 118HTs be more output than one new Captivator 2400? (from 20Hz-80Hz)
2. Comparing the 1400 vs new 2400 --> since both of them have the same volume and since the 2400 is tuned lower than the 1400, does this not mean that there is a fair chance that the mid bass(40-80Hz) of the new 2400 would be actually lesser than the outgoing 1400?
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post #9492 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Two questions:
1. Will two new 118HTs be more output than one new Captivator 2400? (from 20Hz-80Hz)
2. Comparing the 1400 vs new 2400 --> since both of them have the same volume and since the 2400 is tuned lower than the 1400, does this not mean that there is a fair chance that the mid bass(40-80Hz) of the new 2400 would be actually lesser than the outgoing 1400?
1. YES

2. Midbass could actually be even due to the increase in power. Lowering the port tune could lose 1-2dB in the midbass but the increase in power could offset it. Any difference should be too small to be significant.
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post #9493 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Looking at this ^, you are heavily compressed with 117db at 10hz. I say you are about 113-114db at 10hz.
JTR's port design shows more port compression than Rythmik (circular ports) for example. IME this is something measured but is not indicative of real-world listening/tactile experience.

In this newest generation, Jeff has refined his port design further. It is already the best in the industry IMO.
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post #9494 of 13817 Old 08-17-2018, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Is it just me or does the Cap 2400/ULF not really exist in real life? I can't seem to find even ONE video of it on YouTube, that's crazy!
It sure does exist.

It's just that not everyone is into making videos... And a lot of those that do on Youtube, are probably doing it for the money...
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post #9495 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Comparing the 1400 vs new 2400 --> since both of them have the same volume and since the 2400 is tuned lower than the 1400, does this not mean that there is a fair chance that the mid bass(40-80Hz) of the new 2400 would be actually lesser than the outgoing 1400?
Adding to this question: Does this mean the 2400 is more prone to port noise then?
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post #9496 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Two questions:
1. Will two new 118HTs be more output than one new Captivator 2400? (from 20Hz-80Hz)
2. Comparing the 1400 vs new 2400 --> since both of them have the same volume and since the 2400 is tuned lower than the 1400, does this not mean that there is a fair chance that the mid bass(40-80Hz) of the new 2400 would be actually lesser than the outgoing 1400?
1. YES

2. Midbass could actually be even due to the increase in power. Lowering the port tune could lose 1-2dB in the midbass but the increase in power could offset it. Any difference should be too small to be significant.
Actually I just checked data bass for a comparison between the 1400 and the 2400ulf. To my total surprise, the 1400 actually beats the 2400ulf above 40Hz !!!
In which case the 2400(with similar 10Hz tune as the 2400ulf but in a smaller body) should logically not stand a chance against the 1400 above 40Hz.

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post #9497 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Actually I just checked data bass for a comparison between the 1400 and the 2400ulf. To my total surprise, the 1400 actually beats the 2400ulf above 40Hz !!!
In which case the 2400(with similar 10Hz tune as the 2400ulf but in a smaller body) should logically not stand a chance against the 1400 above 40Hz.
In theory, when all else being equal, output down low has more to do with cabinet size, while output up top has more to do with driver efficiency.

Ricci has mentioned that the Cap 1400's ICE power amp bursts better (meaning produced better CEA-2010 Max burst numbers) while the Cap 2400ULF's Torpedo amp can produce more long term output.

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post #9498 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
Actually I just checked data bass for a comparison between the 1400 and the 2400ulf. To my total surprise, the 1400 actually beats the 2400ulf above 40Hz !!!
In which case the 2400(with similar 10Hz tune as the 2400ulf but in a smaller body) should logically not stand a chance against the 1400 above 40Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
In theory, when all else being equal, output down low has more to do with cabinet size, while output up top has more to do with driver efficiency.

Ricci has mentioned that the Cap 1400's ICE power amp bursts better (meaning produced better CEA-2010 Max burst numbers) while the Cap 2400ULF's Torpedo amp can produce more long term output.

I think that there is a little bit of apples-to-oranges going on in this comparison. Based on the projected numbers which Chucky developed for the new Cap 118HT, in Post 9294 on Page 315, I would expect it to beat the new Cap 2400 from about 40Hz on up. The average of the 40Hz to 80Hz range shown for the 2019 Cap 118HT was 123db. At worst, it would be a horse race, which the Cap 118HT would probably win.

But, the original question involved a comparison between dual Cap 118HT's and a single Cap 2400, and that isn't even a fair fight. Although dual Cap 118HT's wouldn't add 6db more output at every frequency, they would average an additional 6db across the entire passband. Absent some real placement issue with the frequency response in the mid-bass, they would thump a single Cap 2400 pretty easily in the entire 20Hz to 80Hz range.

We can have more low-frequency SPL, or we can have more SPL from about about 30Hz or 40Hz on up. To have both at the same time, in a single subwoofer, requires a very large cabinet, perhaps dual 18" drivers, and even more amplifier power. I think that Chucky may recognize the hypothetical subwoofer I am describing.

Regards,
Mike
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post #9499 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 05:01 AM
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So, with these recent lineup changes, what would be the logical upgrade for dual PB16 ultras between dual 118’s, and dual 2400’s?


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post #9500 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 05:17 AM
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So, with these recent lineup changes, what would be the logical upgrade for dual PB16 ultras between dual 118’s, and dual 2400’s?

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Hi,

That would be no contest for me. I would personally always choose the subwoofers that would give me lower extension, if I could afford them, and if I could accommodate their larger size. I think that it is much easier for most of us to achieve good mid-bass SPL, from a pair of powerful subwoofers, than it is to achieve strong low-bass SPL. In this case, knowing that you are already accustomed to having the deep bass that the PB16's provide would just make the choice even easier.

I would go with the Cap 2400's in the larger cabinet, if I were you. They are the ones that are designated as Cap 2400 ULF.

Regards,
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Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #9501 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 05:24 AM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

That would be no contest for me. I would personally always choose the subwoofers that would give me lower extension, if I could afford them, and if I could accommodate their larger size. I think that it is much easier for most of us to achieve good mid-bass SPL, from a pair of powerful subwoofers, than it is to achieve strong low-bass SPL. In this case, knowing that you are already accustomed to having the deep bass that the PB16's provide would just make the choice even easier.

I would go with the Cap 2400's in the larger cabinet, if I were you. They are the ones that are designated as Cap 2400 ULF.

Regards,
Mike


I did know that 2400ulf would do the job. What I’m wondering is if either the 2400, or 118 would be a worthwhile replacement, or just a sideways move. With the sale going on until the end of the month, this would be a good time to do it. The 2400 ULF is just too large for me. The height dimension doesn’t work in my room.


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post #9502 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 06:52 AM
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I did know that 2400ulf would do the job. What I’m wondering is if either the 2400, or 118 would be a worthwhile replacement, or just a sideways move. With the sale going on until the end of the month, this would be a good time to do it. The 2400 ULF is just too large for me. The height dimension doesn’t work in my room.

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The Cap 2400 ULF can still be ordered in the original low-rise version (about 20.5" high). I really think that would be a better solution in your circumstance than either of the other two alternatives.

From a low-frequency standpoint, I believe that the Cap 118's would be at best a lateral move, although they would give you more mid-bass. The Cap 2400's would be a closer call. They would definitely give you more low-frequency extension (below about 15Hz) than the PB16's would. But, I just don't know how dramatic the difference would be, considering the cost of getting out of the PB16's and into the Cap 2400's. If I were you, and I wanted to upgrade, I would hold out for a pair of Cap 2400 ULF's in the low-rise version.

Of course, you could also consider keeping the PB16's on your front wall and adding a Cap 2400 (or a 2400 ULF) behind your listening position. But ideally, I would just upgrade to the ULF's if I wanted MOAR, and reserve the option of a compatible rear nearfield subwoofer for the future.
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #9503 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 07:51 AM
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The Cap 2400 ULF can still be ordered in the original low-rise version (about 20.5" high). I really think that would be a better solution in your circumstance than either of the other two alternatives.

From a low-frequency standpoint, I believe that the Cap 118's would be at best a lateral move, although they would give you more mid-bass. The Cap 2400's would be a closer call. They would definitely give you more low-frequency extension (below about 15Hz) than the PB16's would. But, I just don't know how dramatic the difference would be, considering the cost of getting out of the PB16's and into the Cap 2400's. If I were you, and I wanted to upgrade, I would hold out for a pair of Cap 2400 ULF's in the low-rise version.

Of course, you could also consider keeping the PB16's on your front wall and adding a Cap 2400 (or a 2400 ULF) behind your listening position. But ideally, I would just upgrade to the ULF's if I wanted MOAR, and reserve the option of a compatible rear nearfield subwoofer for the future.
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post #9505 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
The Cap 2400 ULF can still be ordered in the original low-rise version (about 20.5" high). I really think that would be a better solution in your circumstance than either of the other two alternatives.

From a low-frequency standpoint, I believe that the Cap 118's would be at best a lateral move, although they would give you more mid-bass. The Cap 2400's would be a closer call. They would definitely give you more low-frequency extension (below about 15Hz) than the PB16's would. But, I just don't know how dramatic the difference would be, considering the cost of getting out of the PB16's and into the Cap 2400's. If I were you, and I wanted to upgrade, I would hold out for a pair of Cap 2400 ULF's in the low-rise version.

Of course, you could also consider keeping the PB16's on your front wall and adding a Cap 2400 (or a 2400 ULF) behind your listening position. But ideally, I would just upgrade to the ULF's if I wanted MOAR, and reserve the option of a compatible rear nearfield subwoofer for the future.


The ulf, in any version, just doesn’t work for me with its dimensions. I’m not trying to make a lateral move at all. So I will probably just scratch the whole idea.


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post #9506 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 09:07 AM
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how does the standard finish look? does it look like a matte black, or more like a bed liner?

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post #9507 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 09:27 AM
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how does the standard finish look? does it look like a matte black, or more like a bed liner?
The original standard finish doesn't look as good as the psa standard finish. Its more like duratex/plain looking. Knowing your beautiful room with previous funk setup I think you will prefer the custom finish instead.
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post #9508 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 09:29 AM
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So, with these recent lineup changes, what would be the logical upgrade for dual PB16 ultras between dual 118’s, and dual 2400’s?


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Are you even using the pb16s in its full capacity?

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post #9509 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 09:59 AM
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how does the standard finish look? does it look like a matte black, or more like a bed liner?
The standard finish disappears in light controlled rooms. I can't imagine you (or wife) being satisfied as your space is nice and bright. I haven't seen your room with the Revels. Would you want to match their finish?

JTR does use a different stamdard finish on the PA cabinets that is more like duratex. I don't see any reason why anyone would prefer it for a home cinema though.

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post #9510 of 13817 Old 08-18-2018, 10:02 AM
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Are you even using the pb16s in its full capacity?


I would say I am. I don’t push them to the max always. But pretty close.


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