Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 325 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9721 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I guess it’s really 10am and 1pm now that I pulled them away from the wall to see what’s happening. Not sure if this is a sign of a problem or not, what do you guys think?

I have a Pioneer Elite SC35. Only one sub out so I split the signal.

I have made one cable swap at a time, starting with the sub cable to the weaker one. No change.

Tried plugging the new cable directly into AVR, no splitter. No change.

Tried swapping power cords. No change.

Finally swapped sub positions. No change.

I have the sub cables plugged into the left RCA input on each sub, and all other settings set the same except gain. Here are the amp photos, let me know if I’m missing something. Thanks!

Edit: all that and I didn’t answer your second question. I’m not using the auto on, I have both fully turned on.


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It's funny you say this. I only noticed my 2 S1's have the same issue. If i set the gain knobs to the same position, the SPL is significantly different. From memory it was also something like 5+dB's. One of mine has the indentations when you rotate the dials, and one doesnt, so I assume they have different amps in each??

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Subs: 2 x JTR S1's (sealed), LCR: 3 x JTR 228HT; Surrounds: 2 x JTR Single 8HT-LP; Atmos: 2 x JTR Single 8HT-LP
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post #9722 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Another way of looking at this is that if you want to experience true deep bass, and a subwoofer that has worked well with 99% of users doesn't sound good in your room, then the room is "problematic," and it's unique to you.

IMHO, the last sentence above should be added every time above "wise advice" is uttered, for the 200th time, on this JTR thread.
Just like my wife says - “No Baby, you’re completely normal, it’s everyone else that’s screwed up”.

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post #9723 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
No one is saying you're attacking JTR and I'm "chilling." Just want to provide a counter that, what you write is based on somewhat of a false, or at least incomplete, premise. Especially since you've written it 200 times already LOL.



Your room has problems, and your taste may be different, that's why a subwoofer that works for 99% of users doesn't work there. Have you thought about that 99%?


Ok cool. As long as you are chilling. also please note that Randy mentioned he was considering others subs so my advice was to try in his room. I think that advice is spot on and all of us would love to try all subs in our rooms if we could.

Right @chucky7 ?


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post #9724 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djreef View Post
Just like my wife says - “No Baby, you’re completely normal, it’s everyone else that’s screwed up”.

DJ
LOL. Probably applicable to all people on this forum.

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post #9725 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Ok cool. As long as you are chilling. also please note that Randy mentioned he was considering others subs so my advice was to try in his room. I think that advice is spot on and all of us would love to try all subs in our rooms if we could.

Right @chucky7 ?
No prob. And my advice to you, since you seem to be such a top-notch basshead, is: MOVE.
Your audio life is "incomplete" in that problematic room (assuming the evaluation is done adequately). Kidding.

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post #9726 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
It's funny you say this. I only noticed my 2 S1's have the same issue. If i set the gain knobs to the same position, the SPL is significantly different. From memory it was also something like 5+dB's. One of mine has the indentations when you rotate the dials, and one doesnt, so I assume they have different amps in each??
Hmm this is a new one. Bought at the same time I assume? @chucky7 ?

Now you guys are making me curious. I'll measure gain per each notch when I have a chance.

As to your question, yes if there is a huge difference between gain knob, I would contact Jeff.

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post #9727 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
No prob. And my advice to you, since you seem to be such a top-notch basshead, is: MOVE.
Your audio life is "incomplete" in that problematic room (assuming the evaluation is done adequately). Kidding.
But wait! Aren’t all rooms problematic?

DJ
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post #9728 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
No prob. And my advice to you, since you seem to be such a top-notch basshead, is: MOVE.

Your audio life is "incomplete" in that problematic room (assuming the evaluation is done adequately). Kidding.

No my friend. You should talk to Marc offline and get some info about what happened and changes it resulted it in (only if you wish to)I don’t want to discuss here and thanks for labeling me a basshead. I never really thought I was but I am I guess.



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post #9729 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by djreef View Post
But wait! Aren’t all rooms problematic?



DJ


Indeed!


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post #9730 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
No one is saying you're attacking JTR and I'm "chilling." Just want to provide a counter that, what you write is based on somewhat of a false, or at least incomplete, premise. Especially since you've written it 200 times already LOL.

Your room has problems, and your taste may be different, that's why a subwoofer that works for 99% of users doesn't work there. Have you thought about that 99%?
He didn't even mention JTR, you need to chill on that razor thin sensitivity. The thrust of the conversation was comparing the 1400 to the 2400ULF, at least that's what I got out of it.
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post #9731 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djreef View Post
But wait! Aren’t all rooms problematic?
DJ
Trick question right? "My room is normal, it's the other rooms that are screwed up." Haha

All I would say is that for music, yes some subwoofer integrates better/more differently with certain main L&R speakers than some other. This is the "subjective" sound of a subwoofer, and electronic manipulation doesn't change this integration in my experience and IMHO. For example integration of subwoofer for music with my Magnaplanar 3.5 or my Thiel CS5i. The Magnaplanar doesn't "like" a powerful/deep sounding subwoofer, the Thiel does. The wrong match causes one to hear the subwoofer as a separate entity, instead of integrated into the main speakers. In this case, yes I could see situations where the sound is horrible.

For movies with a dedicated LFE channel, with two subwoofers, room correction, and all the tools at your disposal, if you can't make the 1400 work, then IMHO something is wrong with the rooms or with the evaluation. I particularly know this for the 1400 since I've had it for a long time and have compared it to other subwoofers to know its sound. There is nothing extraordinary about the 1400, except for the ominous deep bass and the surprisingly tight/clean midbass.
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post #9732 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:20 PM
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^^^

I don't want to get in the middle of anything here, but Ray's comment didn't strike me as a negative one. And, I do think it is worthwhile for all of us to remind ourselves that tastes vary, in subwoofers as in everything else. I think it is partly room-dependent, but I also think that it's partly personal taste-dependent, too.

I have always had plenty of mid-bass for my personal tastes, so my subwoofer preferences tend to run to those which can produce deep bass. But, I am very aware that there are plenty of people who prefer to select subwoofers that emphasize mid-bass frequencies, and who are extremely happy with them. I don't know that any ID company has a more loyal and satisfied group of owners than PSA, and those subwoofers definitely do not emphasize low-bass frequencies relative to mid-bass frequencies.

Rich dark chocolate, or lighter, sweeter milk chocolate? I don't see either choice as wrong--just one of personal preference.

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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
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post #9733 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Hmm this is a new one. Bought at the same time I assume? @chucky7 ?

Now you guys are making me curious. I'll measure gain per each notch when I have a chance.

As to your question, yes if there is a huge difference between gain knob, I would contact Jeff.
Yep they were bought at the same time. Ill measure the exact difference in SPL. Im in Australia so shipping anything will be a pain! Will contact Jeff and see what he says.

Projector: Epson 6040; Screen: 120" 16:9
Pre-amp: Anthem AVM60; Power Amps: Emotiva XPA2 Gen3, Emotiva XPA7 Gen3;
Subs: 2 x JTR S1's (sealed), LCR: 3 x JTR 228HT; Surrounds: 2 x JTR Single 8HT-LP; Atmos: 2 x JTR Single 8HT-LP
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post #9734 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
No my friend. You should talk to Marc offline and get some info about what happened and changes it resulted it in (only if you wish to)I don’t want to discuss here and thanks for labeling me a basshead. I never really thought I was but I am I guess.
Yes you are a basshead of the highest order, and yes that's a compliment.

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post #9735 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Yep they were bought at the same time. Ill measure the exact difference in SPL. Im in Australia so shipping anything will be a pain! Will contact Jeff and see what he says.
Could you remind me again, what's the difference in positions of the 2 knobs?

I assume you've done all the usual suspects: switch cables, switch subwoof positions? And yes IMHO, if they are drastically different, I would call Jeff. Ask him about the detent too (one of yours does have it and one doesn't?) and let us know.

Regards, Can
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #9736 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Could you remind me again, what's the difference in positions of the 2 knobs?

I assume you've done all the usual suspects: switch cable, switch subwoof positions? And yes IMHO, if they are drastically different, I would call Jeff. Ask him about the notch too (one does and one doesn't) and let us know.
Yep switched cables and positions over. I had them set to 9am. Not sure what they are set at now to level match them, will have to pull out of baffle wall to see. Will keep you posted.

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Subs: 2 x JTR S1's (sealed), LCR: 3 x JTR 228HT; Surrounds: 2 x JTR Single 8HT-LP; Atmos: 2 x JTR Single 8HT-LP
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post #9737 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Yep switched cables and positions over. I had them set to 9am. Not sure what they are set at now to level match them, will have to pull out of baffle wall to see. Will keep you posted.
I guess somewhere around 30 degree rotational difference, I would start wondering.

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post #9738 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Thanks for chiming in!
I really appreciate what Jeff did here. He must follow along on this thread, because I barely told him anything over email and he offered to replace the amp before I even had to ask. That is great customer service in my book, very proactive, and definitely makes me feel better about things.
Also, I’m relieved the amp isn’t dead or something drastic (which happened four years ago with my PSA subs ironically) so I can still rock on while I wait for the replacement. I feel lucky!
My guess is the same as @cannga , most likely the high gain amp. I’ll confirm with Jeff before I disassemble anything though.
Related question to everyone: What gain setting range is the most common for the 1400? I feel like I read it’s somewhere between 10-12? My PSA subs always ran between 2-3pm, which was pretty common for those models back in the day.
And hopefully the amp matches one of your other amps. If not, then it could be a driver problem, which I doubt, and hope not. Get your exercise in, you are going to do a lot of awkward lifting of heavy stuffs in tight quarters!

For my own system setup (Theta Casablanca), the gain is around 9-10 o'clock (1/3 of the way up from minimum). I could be wrong but I thought this is where the knob usually ends up in most systems. Especially with two subwoofers.

Regards, Can
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post #9739 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Ok cool. As long as you are chilling. also please note that Randy mentioned he was considering others subs so my advice was to try in his room. I think that advice is spot on and all of us would love to try all subs in our rooms if we could.

Right @chucky7 ?


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No worries Ray, I knew where you were going with it. It’s great advice and doubt anyone could really argue with it. Also, our previous conversations were extremely helpful as I analyzed my options and made my choice this time. You have had one of the more interesting bass journeys I’ve heard.

Now it’s movie time, Hacksaw Ridge here I come!
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post #9740 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 08:55 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
No worries Ray, I knew where you were going with it. It’s great advice and doubt anyone could really argue with it. Also, our previous conversations were extremely helpful as I analyzed my options and made my choice this time. You have had one of the more interesting bass journeys I’ve heard.

Now it’s movie time, Hacksaw Ridge here I come!


I am glad if my experience or anything I have stated has been helpful my friend. You enjoy those awesome subs now!


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Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #9741 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Yep they were bought at the same time. Ill measure the exact difference in SPL. Im in Australia so shipping anything will be a pain! Will contact Jeff and see what he says.
I know that my Cap 1400's amp does not have detent. Some time in 2017, Jeff started shipping subs with that the amp has detent. If you got both of your subs in the same order, they should both be the same.

Tiny changes are ongoing.

For example, my 2015 Cap 1400's driver has a smooth dust cap. But Jeff has switched to carbon fiber dusk caps now.

My Cap 1400's LF Adjust range is +/-6dB. Then it was changed to 0 to -12dB and it has been 0 to -18dB since 2018.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #9742 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 11:12 PM
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I guess it’s really 10am and 1pm now that I pulled them away from the wall to see what’s happening. Not sure if this is a sign of a problem or not, what do you guys think?

I have a Pioneer Elite SC35. Only one sub out so I split the signal.

I have made one cable swap at a time, starting with the sub cable to the weaker one. No change.

Tried plugging the new cable directly into AVR, no splitter. No change.

Tried swapping power cords. No change.

Finally swapped sub positions. No change.

I have the sub cables plugged into the left RCA input on each sub, and all other settings set the same except gain. Here are the amp photos, let me know if I’m missing something. Thanks!

Edit: all that and I didn’t answer your second question. I’m not using the auto on, I have both fully turned on.




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My 1400’s are the same way. One is at around 10ish for gain and the other around 11ish for gain to hit the same spl. Kinda thought that was weird myself, I figured if both were at the same gain level the spl would be the same but that was not the case.
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post #9743 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW for those on the fence for the new 2400 (and 118HT) - do it. $2124 is an absolute bargain and I'm telling you now history has shown Jeff does not give intro pricing a second time (very likely because he's not making money at that price).

The countdown continues: you have 7 days left to pull the trigger. NB: I have no financial interest, merely want to inform fellow bassheads that this thing is "cheap" .


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post #9744 of 13037 Old 08-23-2018, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I know that my Cap 1400's amp does not have detent. Some time in 2017, Jeff started shipping subs with that the amp has detent. If you got both of your subs in the same order, they should both be the same.

Tiny changes are on going.

For example, my 2015 Cap 1400's driver has a smooth dusk cap. But Jeff has switched to carbon fiber dusk caps now.

My Cap 1400's LF Adjust range is +/-6dB. Then it was changed to 0 to -12dB and it has been 0 to -18dB since 2018.
I guess I am not 100% sure what the LF Adjust knob does. If it now can go from 0 to -18dB does that mean it does the same thing that increasing the trim in the AVR does, just with a much higher boost capability? If not could somebody please explain the LF Adjust to me please. Thanks in advance.
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post #9745 of 13037 Old 08-24-2018, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
I guess I am not 100% sure what the LF Adjust knob does. If it now can go from 0 to -18dB does that mean it does the same thing that increasing the trim in the AVR does, just with a much higher boost capability? If not could somebody please explain the LF Adjust to me please. Thanks in advance.
The effect of the 4000ULF's LF Adjust in my HT:



Between Boost (Blue) and Cut (Red), the range is 18dB @ 10Hz, the tuning frequency. Notice the range gets smaller the further away from 10Hz? Hence the name, Low Frequency Adjust. The LF Adjust shapes the FR to suit the user's liking.

In practice, if you have the LF Adjust @ Boost playing the Edge of Tomorrow intro and you don't like the chuff, you can turn down the LF Adjust. You will get less low end and TR but the chuff can be completely eliminated. The most output at a given frequency for the sub in your HT is finite. Therefore, turning down the LF Adjust will provide more reserve, or headroom, so that it can still handle the most demanding scenes out there. Some users might prefer lower LF Adjust setting for music and higher LF Adjust setting for movies.

The trim and the gain have pretty much the same function. It raises the output below the crossover. Each click on the sub gain is 1.5dB.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 08-24-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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post #9746 of 13037 Old 08-24-2018, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LennS View Post
I guess I am not 100% sure what the LF Adjust knob does. If it now can go from 0 to -18dB does that mean it does the same thing that increasing the trim in the AVR does, just with a much higher boost capability? If not could somebody please explain the LF Adjust to me please. Thanks in advance.
Hi, see Chucky's response above. If I understand your question correctly, the brief answer is LF Adjust knob affects a small range, the ultra low range, say 10-40 Hz, whereas the trim/level in the AVR affects the whole range of bass10-120 Hz.

LFE's "loudness/dB" range is limited to the few dB's that the engineer sets it to be. So, smaller frequency range (10-40), and relatively less effect on loudness (less "dB" affected).

Trim/level affects a much bigger "loudness/dB" range. So, larger frequency range, and huge effect on loudness. Hope this helps.

Last edited by cannga; 08-24-2018 at 07:57 AM.
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post #9747 of 13037 Old 08-24-2018, 06:01 AM
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Just got it into the basement. Not a good picture.



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post #9748 of 13037 Old 08-24-2018, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep switched cables and positions over. I had them set to 9am. Not sure what they are set at now to level match them, will have to pull out of baffle wall to see. Will keep you posted.

Allow me to add some comments based on my experience with these volume knobs. Traditionally, itt's a gain control for the preamp, telling the preamp how much the input signal (that from your receiver) is going to be amplified before it is fed to the power amp, so,

At Min, the gain is zero: the signal from your receiver is completely attenuated.
At Max, the gain is, say, 1.5: the signal from your receiver is amplified 1.5 times, then this is fed to the power amp. If input is 1 volt to preamp, output is 1.5 volt to power amp.

In between the tracking could be pretty precise on an expensive volume control, or not as much as I would assume on less expensive controls. At mid level, one might be 0.9 gain, another might be 1.1 gain, but as long as there is nothing wrong with the control, smaller variations (1-2 notches??) I imagine would be Ok. The knobs may be at somewhat different locations, or one may have detente and the other doesn’t, but so long as the gains are the same, there’s no problem. Bigger variations, say 3 notches, is where I probably would seek assurance from Jeff.

Essentially it comes down to expected normal “tolerance” of the Speaker Power amp’s level knob. Hope this helps people with dual subwoofs.

Last edited by cannga; 08-24-2018 at 07:58 AM.
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post #9749 of 13037 Old 08-24-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
My 1400’s are the same way. One is at around 10ish for gain and the other around 11ish for gain to hit the same spl. Kinda thought that was weird myself, I figured if both were at the same gain level the spl would be the same but that was not the case.


If mine were like that I wouldn’t be worried. Some variation makes sense to me. Mine have like a 60 degree difference in how they are set, which seems like quite a lot and made me wonder.


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post #9750 of 13037 Old 08-24-2018, 08:41 AM
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I wonder if Speakerpower is having trouble keeping pace with demand, and units are just being visually inspected with the assumption that the end manufacuturer will do the due diligence and send back non spec product. I dunno, I know these guys are the ‘go to’ now for a lot of ID sub makers. Maybe they’re having trouble keeping up so QC is slipping a bit. It seems to be a relatively minor thing, but it’s odd that these issues are popping up more often recently.

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