Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 333 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9961 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
Quick measure with ARC is flattest in my room with LF adjust at min with my dual 1400’s. At 76db combined I got -5 for sub level. When ARC is done I then set LF adjust to max on both 1400’s. And then I run mine about 4db hot. But with that said everyone (and every room) is different for how hot people run their subs. Average seems to be 6, just go with what sounds best to you 👍
Thank you for that information. I think i will run quick measure a few times with just the subs to see what the difference is. So you changed the LF Adjust AFTER you were done with ARC? Shouldn't you have but it to maximum before you ran ARC?

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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
The idea is 2 of the same subs with the same amp settings should measure within 1~2dB AT THE SAME SPOT.

SpeakerPower calls the LF Adjust "low frequency equalization". It allows the user to shape the frequency response to his or her liking. With this, users with room of all sizes can shape the FR to have similar results.

Below is what Ricci said about the S2's LF Adjust when it was tested: "The LF adjust control offers the ability to modify the amount of bass below 25Hz with the primary effect taking place below 18Hz. With the control at maximum the S2 exhibits at relatively flat FR down to about 15Hz and with the control set to minimum the response rolls off a bit quicker below 20Hz. The effect is largest at 10Hz and below where the response is cut about 4dB with the control at minimum"



Jeff has been using a new DSP program since the beginning of the year which the LF Adjust's range has been increased to 0 ~ -18dB. I am not so sure if the program has also has been implemented on sealed subs though.

Assuming you have the old DSP, you get 4 dB more output at 10Hz with the LF Adjust at 'Boost' than at 'Cut'.

There is no correct setting for the LF Adjust as everyone's rooms and tastes are different.

I would have it at Boost but Marc would probably have it at less than half way.

Harry Potter would have it at the minimum and Batman would have it at the maximum.

Again, this is all personal and AVR dependent. Any reasonable level is safe. As long as you don't listen with the gain, LF Adjust and AVR MV all at the max you will be okay.
I think i would most likely run it at boost to get the most out of the subs. Thank you for that explanation and graph. It helps understand it all. I do likey my bassy.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Dan,

Many people run their subwoofers quite hot (+10 to +15db), and powerful sealed subs like the S2's should be pretty bulletproof in that regard. I wouldn't increase the AVR trim controls to 0, or even above about -5, though, if I were you. That just invites clipping. Instead, just increase the gains on the subs themselves. As long as the gain increases are symmetrical, your subs will still be level-matched. You can always put a small piece of tape at where you are now on your analogue gain dial, if you want to know later how much gain you have added, or want to return to the calibrated setting.

The LF adjust controls how much the lowest frequencies play in relation to the mid-bass frequencies. Calibrating with the LFA at the medium setting, as you did, is usually a good idea. Afterwards, in small rooms, many people would leave it at that setting, or even reduce it, due to room gain. Other people might want to increase the LFA to max, irrespective of room size. The higher up the dial you go, the more that your subwoofers will emphasize the SPL in very low-frequencies. This is something that you are likely to notice more with movies (or music) which have significant low-bass content.

As with your subwoofer boost, the use of the LFA setting is entirely a matter of personal preference.

Regards,
Mike
It looks like the consensus is to do what you like and what your preference is. Which is what i will also do. Thank you all for your guidance in this. Now time to play around more.
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post #9962 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 04rex View Post
Thank you for that information. I think i will run quick measure a few times with just the subs to see what the difference is. So you changed the LF Adjust AFTER you were done with ARC? Shouldn't you have but it to maximum before you ran ARC?



I think i would most likely run it at boost to get the most out of the subs. Thank you for that explanation and graph. It helps understand it all. I do likey my bassy.



It looks like the consensus is to do what you like and what your preference is. Which is what i will also do. Thank you all for your guidance in this. Now time to play around more.
No because ARC will always try to flatten your response as much as possible. So if you max out your LF adj and then run ARC it will just quash it down. You want to set it where your response looks the flattest via quick measure, and again everyone’s room is going to be different. My room is only 2300 so my flattest response is with LF adj all the way down with my dual 1400’s. ARC does it’s thing and makes it laser straight. Maxing LF adj bumps up the low end to borderline skull crushing 🙂
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post #9963 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
No because ARC will always try to flatten your response as much as possible. So if you max out your LF adj and then run ARC it will just quash it down. You want to set it where your response looks the flattest via quick measure, and again everyone’s room is going to be different. My room is only 2300 so my flattest response is with LF adj all the way down with my dual 1400’s. ARC does it’s thing and makes it laser straight. Maxing LF adj bumps up the low end to borderline skull crushing 🙂
LOL ok sounds good. I just did some quick measure and it does make a noticeable difference now. Thank you for that. I will adjust it until it looks flat, run ARC, then boost it all the way again. As for the Gain, when using quick measure, they are both playing together at 80DB, so i will leave that alone. I believe it is only 4 or 5 notches out of 20. So there is still a lot of amp left.

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post #9964 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
That is weird.

Jeff will have the 2 2400ULFs strapped on a pallet. All the driver has to do, is use a pallet jack and move that pallet to the first threshold of your home, ie, your garage. I don't know why the freight company asked you that question.

Depending on what kind of "moving", you might be referring to what is usually called 'white glove' service offered by furniture companies. That would cost extra and may not be offered by trucking companies because the guy is a driver, not a mover. You can certainly try tipping the guy. YMMV.

Easy now! I purchased a hand truck to deal with delivery. This isn't a criticism of JTR. This is a WTF moment with Fedex personnel.
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post #9965 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi WlGeter,

I think a good tip will motivate the Truck Driver to help make an in house delivery. However, please note, these subs are big and packaged on a FULL size shipping wood pallet. There is lots of packaging, banding and shrink wrap to remove. It will take some time just to peel them out of their respective packaging nests. This is a job you do not want to rush. The use of a Razor Knife should be avoided at all costs. Have a good pair of siscisors handy. This will prevent any accidental damage to the Sub's external cosmetics. Once they are free from all the packaging a small dolly or some furniture sliders will work to move them around the house. Sliding them around is going to be about the only way to move them. I think they each weigh over a hundred pounds each and have no handles, so they are difficult to obtain a secure purchase to lift them.

Its actually easier to do once they are separate from the Shipping pallet. The pallet will NOT fit through any residential doorway. Think Garage door size. I had some old reminant carpet runners laying in the garage. Flip the carpet over (carpet side up) place sub on carpet runner and they will glide across almost any surface and transverse most steps as well.

Have a Camera (Phone will work) handy. In case there is any visually evident shipping damage to the exterior packaging. I was lucky and had a Driver and an assistant on the truck. I gave them $60.00 to unpack and inspect in Garage. They offered to move them in the house after inspections were complete. Good luck, congratulations and Welcome to the JTR Family!!!!

Edit: I see Chucky and I were cross posting and much of my post now seems redundant. My apologies.

Thank you for your service, and advise. I am willing to huff it alone with my hand truck. I was caught off guard by the request to help with the delivery is all.
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post #9966 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 04rex View Post
LOL ok sounds good. I just did some quick measure and it does make a noticeable difference now. Thank you for that. I will adjust it until it looks flat, run ARC, then boost it all the way again. As for the Gain, when using quick measure, they are both playing together at 80DB, so i will leave that alone. I believe it is only 4 or 5 notches out of 20. So there is still a lot of amp left.

Set each sub to 71-72 dB so both hit 75-76 playing together as per Anthem.
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post #9967 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by WLGeter View Post
Easy now! I purchased a hand truck to deal with delivery. This isn't a criticism of JTR. This is a WTF moment with Fedex personnel.
No worries!

I just think the request from the freight company is strange, especially when it's FeDex, which is what Jeff uses. I posted what to expect on the delivery day. I know some freight company's container drivers are just drivers. They just stand there and watch on the loading dock...

This is what I have: $99.99 from Costco. Worth every penny! 👍



I transported all the subs you see here with it, up and down the u-Haul truck and my company van...



Piece of cake with the 2400ULFs. I only needed a little help with the 4000ULF.
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post #9968 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
No worries!

I just think the request from the freight company is strange, especially when it's FeDex, which is what Jeff uses. I posted what to expect on the delivery day. I know some freight company's container drivers are just drivers. They just stand there and watch on the loading dock...

This is what I have: $99.99 from Costco. Worth every penny! 👍



I transported all the subs you see here with it, up and down the u-Haul truck and my company van...



Piece of cake with the 2400ULFs. I only needed a little help with the 4000ULF.
Thanks for putting that into perspective for me. I showed this picture to my wife, she says so who's coming to help you? I said you, she said I'll be damned, your not dropping that automaton on me. So I guess I got to get tracking info from Jeff and have a friend over that day...
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post #9969 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 08:37 PM
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My 2400ULF delivery was really easy. FedEx truck with lift gate, driver with pallet jack wheeled it into my garage.



It came shrink wrapped with a layer of cardboard next to the sub. Simply cut the pallet straps, tipped it up on the hand truck, my cranky teenager and I rolled it down the hill into my lower level theater. Carefully peeled away the shrink wrap (no blades!) and all set!
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post #9970 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 08:48 PM
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Well guys, I received my new amp and just finished performing minor surgery on one of my new 1400’s. Everything appears to be in working order now.

Thanks to everyone that helped troubleshoot the issue! I took some photos (see below) as I went through the process because I’m not sure how many people get to see the inner workings of a JTR sub. The amp is pretty darn beefy, as is the driver!

Special thanks to Jeff for the quick turnaround on the new amp. You have been a pleasure to deal with sir, and it is much appreciated!

Now I am off to watch Avengers Infinity War. Thanks again everyone!




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post #9971 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by asafalfa View Post
I’m trying to get an offer from JTR for the last week or so without any success they are not reply to the mails and even tried to call but no answer :/
Anyone had the same experience?


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The actual opposite for me, but keep trying.

I was not able to talk to Jeff but he did reply to my emails. (the first reply took 1.5-2 weeks)
2400 on the way for me

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post #9972 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Well guys, I received my new amp and just finished performing minor surgery on one of my new 1400’s. Everything appears to be in working order now.

Thanks to everyone that helped troubleshoot the issue! I took some photos (see below) as I went through the process because I’m not sure how many people get to see the inner workings of a JTR sub. The amp is pretty darn beefy, as is the driver!

Special thanks to Jeff for the quick turnaround on the new amp. You have been a pleasure to deal with sir, and it is much appreciated!

Now I am off to watch Avengers Infinity War. Thanks again everyone!




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Nice to see that Jeff provides enough lax to be able to pull the amp all the way out. When I tried this recently with a PB13 ultra I could barely get pulled back 8 inches or so. Made it really hard to work to get the connectors off.

So, how do your gain setting look now? Any audible difference?


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post #9973 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
Set each sub to 71-72 dB so both hit 75-76 playing together as per Anthem.
If I set my subs (2 x S1's) to 75dB each, after running ARC i get -1dB in the Anthem. If i drop them any lower, say to 71-72dB each, then my trim ends up positive. Should I be worried about clipping (I asked this yesterday in the Anthem forum and was told its not a problem)??

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post #9974 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
When I tried this recently with a PB13 ultra I could barely get pulled back 8 inches or so. Made it really hard to work to get the connectors off.
That is because the sub was assembled with the amp plate facing the ceiling, then flipped over, with the driver facing the ceiling. Excess speaker wires were cut off to prevent them from flapping around in the sub.

Therefore, unless you take the amp or the driver off in the same way, you will feel that the wire is too short.

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post #9975 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 10:51 PM
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Some pictures of the JTR Speakers facility from various sources:

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/vi...-facility.293/

These pictures are from earlier posts in this thread. This thread is getting longer and since we have some new members in the JTR family, I figure I would rehash them.





JTR cabinet material: Void free Baltic Birch. This makes the cabinets much lighter, compared to MDF.








The Cap 4000ULF:



The Cap 218 Pro:



The Orbit Shifter LF:



The 2017 Cap 118HT:









2017 Cap 118HT vs Cap 1400:



The 2017 Cap 1400 driver:



The Cap S2s, Cap 1400, Cap 118HT:

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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 08-31-2018 at 10:30 AM.
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post #9976 of 13734 Old 08-30-2018, 11:45 PM
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What a great post, Chucky.
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post #9977 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
If I set my subs (2 x S1's) to 75dB each, after running ARC i get -1dB in the Anthem. If i drop them any lower, say to 71-72dB each, then my trim ends up positive. Should I be worried about clipping (I asked this yesterday in the Anthem forum and was told its not a problem)??

Hi,

Dual subs combine across their full bandwidth to produce an average of 6db more output, but that 6db may not be evident within the limited bandwidth of a test tone, which is typically 30Hz to 80Hz. Clipping is a potential problem with higher trim levels, and some subwoofers may not be able to achieve their full output capabilities with low gain levels and high trim levels. We want the voltage going to the drivers to come from the subwoofer amplifiers, not from the AVR amps.

You should set your initial gain levels high enough to return a low negative trim number. It doesn't matter whether your initial SPL is 75db or 81db as long as you get a trim level of about -8 or so. (I don't know how low the minimum trim is with ARC, but be sure to be just above that minimum.) Your AVR will insure that your subwoofers are playing a combined 75db by setting a corresponding trim number--low if your gain is high; and high if your gain is low.

Once you have a solid low trim number, you should have several decibels remaining to make subwoofer adjustments with your remote. But, you don't want to go above about -5 in AVR trim with your subs. If you want more sub boost than that (which most people probably would) just make any further increases with your subwoofer gains. As long as you increase the gains symmetrically, your subs will still be level-matched. With analogue gain dials, it can be a good idea to mark your calibrated gain position with a small piece of tape. That way you will be able to tell how much gain you have added post-calibration, and you will be able to return to that same gain setting for any future recalibrations with ARC.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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post #9978 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Dual subs combine across their full bandwidth to produce an average of 6db more output, but that 6db may not be evident within the limited bandwidth of a test tone, which is typically 30Hz to 80Hz. Clipping is a potential problem with higher trim levels, and some subwoofers may not be able to achieve their full output capabilities with low gain levels and high trim levels. We want the voltage going to the drivers to come from the subwoofer amplifiers, not from the AVR amps.

You should set your initial gain levels high enough to return a low negative trim number. It doesn't matter whether your initial SPL is 75db or 81db as long as you get a trim level of about -8 or so. (I don't know how low the minimum trim is with ARC, but be sure to be just above that minimum.) Your AVR will insure that your subwoofers are playing a combined 75db by setting a corresponding trim number--low if your gain is high; and high if your gain is low.

Once you have a solid low trim number, you should have several decibels remaining to make subwoofer adjustments with your remote. But, you don't want to go above about -5 in AVR trim with your subs. If you want more sub boost than that (which most people probably would) just make any further increases with your subwoofer gains. As long as you increase the gains symmetrically, your subs will still be level-matched. With analogue gain dials, it can be a good idea to mark your calibrated gain position with a small piece of tape. That way you will be able to tell how much gain you have added post-calibration, and you will be able to return to that same gain setting for any future recalibrations with ARC.

Regards,
Mike

That is what I thought as well. That's why mine was at 80db combined, but when I ran ARC, I got -8. Then I adjusted from there. I did raise the trim to about -2, but I also raised the gain a bit as well.

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post #9979 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 08:23 AM
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Another unrelated question I have is what do you guys use for feet? Currently I have both S2s sitting on their sides on the floor with no feet. The feet Jeff included were tiny and didn't seem up to the task given the weight.


Thanks,
Dan

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Interested to know how individuals are connecting their JTR subs and wether the auto-on feature is working well. I'll be connecting via RCA cable and am unsure if I should be splitting the signal inorder to connect to both inputs on the sub or if a single input is the same/better?

Thank you

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post #9981 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 08:44 AM
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The Cap 1400 (2015), Cap 2400ULF, and Cap 4000ULF.



My 5' 6", 104 lb wife and the 2400ULFs



My wife and the 4000ULF


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #9982 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 09:19 AM
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I had to laugh when I saw the size of the 2400ULF in person. I laughed because it's huge and I simultaneously understood that the 4000ULF is twice its size. These aren't your grandpappy's subwoofers. And they perform even larger than they look. Can't wait to place my second order and go twin dragon like Adam. Soon.
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post #9983 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04rex View Post
Another unrelated question I have is what do you guys use for feet? Currently I have both S2s sitting on their sides on the floor with no feet. The feet Jeff included were tiny and didn't seem up to the task given the weight.

Thanks,
Dan
I believe the feet would be at the bottom of the S2 if you have it upright. The purpose of the feet is to acoustically isolate the cabinet from the surface under it. This is why most bookshelf speakers will come with the feet. I won't move the cabinet with the feet under it.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #9984 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamaLama View Post
Interested to know how individuals are connecting their JTR subs and whether the auto-on feature is working well. I'll be connecting via RCA cable and am unsure if I should be splitting the signal inorder to connect to both inputs on the sub or if a single input is the same/better?

Thank you
I have the 4000ULF (and the 1400 before) on auto on and they are working well.

There is nothing to worry about until there is something to worry about. If your AVR have a problem waking the subs up, just get a couple of the 1 female to 2 male RCA splitters. With both RCA connected, the sub gets a stronger signal from your AVR and I believe a 6dB gain.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #9985 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Nice to see that Jeff provides enough lax to be able to pull the amp all the way out. When I tried this recently with a PB13 ultra I could barely get pulled back 8 inches or so. Made it really hard to work to get the connectors off.

So, how do your gain setting look now? Any audible difference?


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Haha I was glad to see the extra length as well. Gain settings are both at 10am now (6 clicks) and the subs measure within 1db of each other in the same spot. Victory!

As far as audible, it was very audible during calibration, I just need to watch something with some real bass in it now. Chucky was right, Infinity War is very disappointing on that front. I’ll pop TDKR in again today and let you know how it does.


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post #9986 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
This is the brand new SpeakerPower amp used in the 118HT. Most powerful module to date and at 1200 watts, it's approaching my JTR 1400 in power.

It is quite a jump from 700 watts, explaining the 2-3 dB gain and now making 118HT even more muscular and powerful. I would suspect it's going to have the highest CEA numbers for 20mm-Xmax 18 incher currently available. A result of the very large cabinet size (size *IS* everything in subwoofing), and among the most powerful amp.




I don't need to remind anymore right? LAST reminder, last day of the sale. $1500 for this nice, and powerful monster, the 118HT.

Especially people with $1000 budget: my recommendation, with sincerely good intention, add $500 to the budget and move up this 18 incher. A totally superior level of subwoofing, and one that will keep you happy for many years.
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Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 08-31-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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post #9987 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
With both RCA connected, the sub gets a stronger signal from your AVR and I believe a 6dB gain.
Hmmm, that's interesting
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post #9988 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 11:36 AM
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Hey guys, friend is bringing avengers infinity war as a "demo" movie..

You guys know your movies sound tracks well,
can you please tell me if this movie really have crappy bass, or what is it?

Maybe it is a good way to get a "warm up" to something better?
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post #9989 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Well guys, I received my new amp and just finished performing minor surgery on one of my new 1400’s. Everything appears to be in working order now.

Thanks to everyone that helped troubleshoot the issue! I took some photos (see below) as I went through the process because I’m not sure how many people get to see the inner workings of a JTR sub. The amp is pretty darn beefy, as is the driver!

Special thanks to Jeff for the quick turnaround on the new amp. You have been a pleasure to deal with sir, and it is much appreciated!

Now I am off to watch Avengers Infinity War. Thanks again everyone!

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Hey, good to know you didn't have to ship the whole unit back and found out which unit is bad. I guess the one where you have to turn up more to get the same volume had something wrong with it?
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post #9990 of 13734 Old 08-31-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by <Vibe> View Post
Hmmm, that's interesting
I know what you are thinking...

Nope, it does not make your subs more capable. The maximum output a particular sub can produce in your space is finite.

It just make it easier for the sub to wake up, since some AVRs have weaker pre-out signal.

I only turn on my audio system when I watch a bluray movie, so I have never had the problem.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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