Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 340 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10171 of 12720 Old 09-12-2018, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
Thanks.



But I am looking for the chart where the combined output of two 2019 118s was compared to other JTR subs.


Ok. Don’t recall that one but they would not make a difference would it? The additional 6db with duals is an average so you could not just add to any particular frequency so to keep things simple you could add it across all frequencies for all the subs and if you were going to do that you are back to this table since he difference will still be the same.


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post #10172 of 12720 Old 09-12-2018, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
I was trying to find a recent chart which chartmaster @chucky7 had posted

It compared Dual new 118s output with a few other JTR subs.

Sure appreciate if someone could point me to that .
Thanks
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post #10173 of 12720 Old 09-12-2018, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Thanks Chucky
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post #10174 of 12720 Old 09-12-2018, 08:44 PM
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Thanks Chucky
You trying to open a small dance club or something?
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post #10175 of 12720 Old 09-12-2018, 09:26 PM
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You trying to open a small dance club or something?
LOL nope.
Just hoping the dual 118s I have on order will provide a solid mid bass wallop and chest thump for HT in my media room.

The single 2017 Cap 1400 I have as an end table next to mlp blends well with my speakers and there is ample output but the visceral impact I seek has evaded me thus far. Hoping for the best. Part of me still has a nagging wish to swap my order of dual 118s for a pair of the new 2400s (twice the power !! ) 😃
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post #10176 of 12720 Old 09-12-2018, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
LOL nope.
Just hoping the dual 118s I have on order will provide a solid mid bass wallop and chest thump for HT in my media room.

The single 2017 Cap 1400 I have as an end table next to mlp blends well with my speakers and there is ample output but the visceral impact I seek has evaded me thus far. Hoping for the best. Part of me still has a nagging wish to swap my order of dual 118s for a pair of the new 2400s (twice the power !! ) 😃
Hi Sean, I have plenty of chest crunch with my 1400. Just IMHO: mostly this comes with music, less so with movies. Very much software dependent and so no fault of the subwoofer. One of the best is “Blue Man Group Audio” in DVD-Audio format (not CD). @Mark Seaton uses this for demo iirc and you might want to give it a try.

I would think the next step, again imho, from 1400 is 2400. Either of these 2 does NOT lack mid bass punch. If you look at Master Chucky’s chart above you could see they (and all others really) run out of output headroom in deep bass (say 30 and below) way way before mid bass (40 and up), at 115-120 dB or so.
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Last edited by cannga; 09-12-2018 at 11:48 PM.
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post #10177 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
LOL nope.

Just hoping the dual 118s I have on order will provide a solid mid bass wallop and chest thump for HT in my media room.



The single 2017 Cap 1400 I have as an end table next to mlp blends well with my speakers and there is ample output but the visceral impact I seek has evaded me thus far. Hoping for the best. Part of me still has a nagging wish to swap my order of dual 118s for a pair of the new 2400s (twice the power !! )

As Cannga says the chest slam is elusive and requires high SPL to achieve and not something you would want to be doing all the time as you will risk going deaf. A better way may be to add a MBM like a behringer or have one sub fire into your couch from the back. This is a whole thread dedicated to it.


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post #10178 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:33 AM
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Alright, I just ordered a Denon AVR-X4400h for $799 shipped. It's time for me to go dual!!!

Let's see how it handles the bass!!!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

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post #10179 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Alright, I just ordered a Denon AVR-X4400h for $799 shipped. It's time for me to go dual!!!

Let's see how it handles the bass!!!


Very cool. Given how basshead likes his Marantz I think you will like it. Able to share where you got it from?


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post #10180 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Very cool. Given how basshead likes his Marantz I think you will like it. Able to share where you got it from?
Fry's is selling the Denon AVR-X4400H for $799. I ordered it from ABT.
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Last edited by chucky7; 09-13-2018 at 06:43 AM.
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post #10181 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Fry's is selling the Denon AVR-X4400h for $799. I ordered it from ABT.


So they price matched to Fry’s or was that their selling price too?


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post #10182 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
So they price matched to Fry’s or was that their selling price too?
ABT's price is $899. They price-matched Fry's price.
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post #10183 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:48 AM
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ABT's price is $899. They price-matched Fry's price.


Oh nice. Good to know they can do that. Usually if it’s an in store promotion they don’t match. Did you have to provide them proof? The frys add usually does not specify the brand of the receiver. Just says 9.2 channel AVR and some features.


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post #10184 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
LOL nope.
Just hoping the dual 118s I have on order will provide a solid mid bass wallop and chest thump for HT in my media room.

The single 2017 Cap 1400 I have as an end table next to mlp blends well with my speakers and there is ample output but the visceral impact I seek has evaded me thus far. Hoping for the best. Part of me still has a nagging wish to swap my order of dual 118s for a pair of the new 2400s (twice the power !! ) 😃

Hi,

If you are looking for chest punch (or thump) as opposed to low-bass tactile sensations, then you made the right choice. As Ray noted, chest thump is a sensation created by percussive mid-bass sounds, and it is primarily the product of airborne SPL (where tactile ULF is also transmitted through the floor). So, for more chest thump, you need more mid-bass (~50Hz to 100Hz for most people) SPL rather than low-bass SPL.

I do have one concern with something you said, though. If you already have a nearfield Cap 1400, and you aren't feeling much chest punch with good percussive mid-bass sounds (such as kick drums, kettle drums, bass guitar chords, gunshots, etc) then you may just not be very susceptible to that particular physical phenomenon. Some people apparently are much more, or less, susceptible to that. I am more. But, the Cap 1400 should be very good at producing that sensation, especially at close range.

The Cap 118HT's are definitely the right choice, in my opinion, for what you are describing. But, if they still don't give you what you are looking for, then I would try putting one or more Behringer B1200D's directly behind your listening position and very close to your back. That might allow you to have your cake and eat it too if you then pivoted to the Cap 2400's. This is the thread that Ray was alluding to:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html

Regards,
Mike
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #10185 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Oh nice. Good to know they can do that. Usually if it’s an in store promotion they don’t match. Did you have to provide them proof? The frys add usually does not specify the brand of the receiver. Just says 9.2 channel AVR and some features.
I do get Fry's promo emails. I was just checking out Fry's prices and found that they have it for $799 this week ($899 regularly). So I put the X4400H in the cart and took a screen shot, planning to use it when asked.

Stumbled upon ABT.com, popped into chat. Told a CSR the prices. Didn't even need to supply the screen shot. She was more than willing to price-match. Called to complete the transaction.

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post #10186 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:57 AM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
LOL nope.

Just hoping the dual 118s I have on order will provide a solid mid bass wallop and chest thump for HT in my media room.



The single 2017 Cap 1400 I have as an end table next to mlp blends well with my speakers and there is ample output but the visceral impact I seek has evaded me thus far. Hoping for the best. Part of me still has a nagging wish to swap my order of dual 118s for a pair of the new 2400s (twice the power !! )
Lol. The 118’s will be great, and I’m sure if you want more Jeff will work something out with you. Just give them an honest chance and I’m sure you’ll be happy.




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Last edited by FattyMcButterPants; 09-13-2018 at 07:10 AM.
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post #10187 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I do get Fry's promo emails. I was just checking out Fry's prices and found that they have it for $799 this week ($899 regularly). So I put the X4400H in the cart and took a screen shot, planning to use it when asked.

Stumbled upon ABT.com, popped into chat. Told a CSR the prices. Didn't even need to supply the screen shot. She was more than willing to price-match. Called to complete the transaction.


Nicely done !


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post #10188 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 07:13 AM
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When we talk about low bass capabilities of 118ht vs 2400, I think people are really referring to the “ultra low” range, since the two subs seem to have about similar output above 16Hz (till 40hz). So what you are really missing out with the 118ht (vs the 2400) is usable output in the 10-16Hz. This is in lieu of a cheaper cost and a bonus higher output above 40hz. right?
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post #10189 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
When we talk about low bass capabilities of 118ht vs 2400, I think people are really referring to the “ultra low” range, since the two subs seem to have about similar output above 16Hz (till 40hz). So what you are really missing out with the 118ht (vs the 2400) is usable output in the 10-16Hz. This is in lieu of a cheaper cost and a bonus higher output above 40hz. right?

This is how I understand it, and my thinking is that you can add mid-bass in other ways if that's what you're after (speakers with lower output, sealed near-field options, etc) but it's pretty tough to add that quality low-bass since there's not a lot of options for that output in usable frequencies. Others on this forum have talked about how a lower tuning actually improves the sound quality of the bass across the entire range, but that's obviously more of a qualitative effect that may not be there for everyone.



One other thing is.....from what I can tell, all of the numbers for the new 2400 are just an informed guess based on Jeff's "2400ULF -3dB @ 10Hz" description without any actual measurements since the new 2400's haven't started shipping yet. With the 2400 replacing the 1400, I'm really curious to see how the smaller 2400 cabinet changes the mid-bass relative to the 2400ULF and if it really is just a -3dB @ 10Hz adjustment with roughly similar output above 16Hz.
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post #10190 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SeanBWI View Post
I was trying to find a recent chart which chartmaster @chucky7 had posted

It compared Dual new 118s output with a few other JTR subs.

Sure appreciate if someone could point me to that .
Thanks
Here is what I posted. Let me know if you want any other subwoofers on the chart.

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post #10191 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tojo_m View Post
When we talk about low bass capabilities of 118ht vs 2400, I think people are really referring to the “ultra low” range, since the two subs seem to have about similar output above 16Hz (till 40hz). So what you are really missing out with the 118ht (vs the 2400) is usable output in the 10-16Hz. This is in lieu of a cheaper cost and a bonus higher output above 40hz. right?
Depending on who is using the range...

For subs, we split the 8 measured frequencies into 2 groups. Down low is 16Hz~32Hz and up top is 40Hz~80Hz. ULF is below 20Hz.

The 118HT is neck to neck with the 2400 from 16Hz ~ 40Hz. Above 40Hz, the 118HT's driver efficiency will provide more output. When all else being equal, a larger cabinet, higher amplification and a driver with higher excursion provide more output down low. Therefore, the 2400 is capable of higher output below 16Hz due to its more robust driver and higher amplification.
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Last edited by chucky7; 09-13-2018 at 10:37 AM.
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post #10192 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Alright, I just ordered a Denon AVR-X4400h for $799 shipped. It's time for me to go dual!!!

Let's see how it handles the bass!!!
You dirty dog!!

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post #10193 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 10:44 AM
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You dirty dog!!
Just to clarify, I have only hooked the 1400 up for comparison purposes ever since I got the 4000ULF. It's time to incorporate the 1400 into my HT.
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post #10194 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Just to clarify, I have only hooked the 1400 up for comparison purposes ever since I got the 4000ULF. It's time to incorporate the 1400 into my HT.
Some notes to think about when running duals off audyssey enabled receivers:

~Just because it has this ability doesn't mean it will sound better than treating the sub system as one single entity

~Do your due diligence on subwoofer distance tweak, especially if subw2 is a nearfield.

~If you have outboard EQ, I have found that at least some preliminary work is prudent even before you run audyssey to get the additional filters it will create. The more work done before, the less audyssey has to correct.

This is simply my own observations through trial and error, but it seems to be pretty consistent in helping other people I have suggested it to.

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post #10195 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Alright, I just ordered a Denon AVR-X4400h for $799 shipped. It's time for me to go dual!!!

Let's see how it handles the bass!!!

As a fellow Pioneer user, interested to hear your opinion.
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post #10196 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 04:54 PM
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So I was looking at some old measurements and I found the following measurements:

It was New Years Day 2018. I was wondering what going dual would be like in my room. I moved the Cap 1400 to the other side of the TV. This is the typical and very convenient subs flanking the TV placement that I see all the time. The left sub (red) is the Cap 1400, the right sub (blue) the Monoprice Monolith 15", which I was reviewing at the time, and green is for both:



Right sub only is definitely better than L sub only or both. This is proof that going dual is not always better than 1 sub, especially when they are flanking the TV.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 09-13-2018 at 05:07 PM.
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post #10197 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
As a fellow Pioneer user, interested to hear your opinion.
Well, when the Pioneer's MCACC does this ( red is MCACC on, green is off )



And Audyssey does this: ( Red is Audy on, Green is off )



I just can't wait to get rid of the 🖕🏼 🖕🏼 🖕🏼 Pioneer!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 09-13-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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post #10198 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 05:28 PM
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I'm still fine tuning my 2400 Tall but here are my initial impressions:

Shipping - Jeff used FedEx Freight to ship this 194 lb (with pallet) behemoth. It was completely stretch wrapped, protected with cardboard then stretch wrapped again. It was strapped to a pallet with stress relievers at the corners and 3/4 foam sheet between it and the pallet. Needless to say, it arrived in perfect condition. FedEx got it to my home in Atlanta in 2 days. Not sure if Jeff ships everything FedEx Freight Priority but the 2 day delivery as opposed to 4 for standard is much appreciated to reduce the anticipation time to as little as possible. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Unpacking - I cut the straps holding the 2400 to the pallet and used a hand-truck to wheel it into my theater with the help of my cranky teenager. I was careful to place the 2400 on the hand-truck with the cardboard packing towards the hand-truck as the bottom that was towards the foam sheet had no cardboard, only stretch-wrap. Unpacking amounted to carefully cutting the layers of stretch wrap with a scissors, a piece of cake. The grill was enclosed in its own plastic bag and magnetically attached in place. The power cord and rubber feet were in their own bags and placed inside the port.

...truncated
Wait, hold on!! Did I not just see people mentioning that the JTR subs don’t come with any feet... How come you got those precious rubber feet?

------------------
Polk LSiM 705 towers, 706 center, RC80i surrounds, Denon X4400H, Emotiva XPA-100 monoblocks, Dual 2019 JTR-118HTs (Color -Mini Cooper Spice Orange metallic), LG 77" C8 OLED, Panny 65" Plasma.
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post #10199 of 12720 Old 09-13-2018, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, when the Pioneer's MCACC does this ( red is MCACC on, green is off )



And Audyssey does this: ( Red is Audy on, Green is off )



I just can't wait to get rid of the 🖕🏼 🖕🏼 🖕🏼 Pioneer!

Well worth the price of admission if you get results anywhere near that!
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post #10200 of 12720 Old 09-14-2018, 04:31 AM
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@cannga

Thank you for the recommendation. I have ordered the Blue Man Group Audio-DVD from Amazon
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