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post #10771 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
My current listening area is ~6500 cubic feet. The S7201s perform admirably but I still feel like I am missing something. I preferred the response of my SVS PB 13 Ultra in my old home in a room that was ~3200 cubic feet.

2) The bass that I enjoyed from the PB 13 Ultra was actually distortion, making the clean playing S7201 sound lean to me.
I do not know if any JTR would correct this subjective deficiency, just want to point out that all PSA subwoofers use lower Xmax (low 20 mm) drivers, as such, it is really comparable to JTR 218 and 118 class of subwoofer. NOT the JTR 4000/2400.

The JTR 4000 and 2400 not only use extremely high Xmax driver (33 mm), they also have lower tuning frequencies. Both parameters result in ultra low bass that I am certain 7201 could NOT reach. Both also likely lead to a different sound signature from 7201.

Objectively (not subjectively) until PSA is tested by third party, my best *guess* would be where S7201 would fall behind JTR 4000 and 2400 is in the deep bass. Really, to me it is disappointing to pay for so much for such a huge subwoofer and still not getting ultra low bass. As a fan of subwoofer design, my heart cries out for a high Xmax driver for S7201 . Now THAT would be quite a monster. As is, I don't believe S7201 will crack this top 10 list. IMHO, disappointing.



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post #10772 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I do not know if any JTR would correct this subjective deficiency, just want to point out that all PSA subwoofers use lower Xmax (low 20) drivers, as such, it is really comparable to JTR 218 and 118 class of subwoofer. NOT the JTR 4000/2400.

The JTR 4000 and 2400 not only use extremely high Xmax driver (33 mm), they also have lower tuning frequencies. Both result in ultra low bass that I don't believe 7201 could reach.

Objectively (not subjectively) until PSA has it tested by third party, my best *guess* would be where S7201 would fall behind JTR 4000 and 2400 is in the deep bass. To me/IMHO it is really disappointing to pay for so much for such a huge subwoofer and still not getting ultra low bass. As a fan of subwoofer design, my heart cries out for a high Xmax driver for S7201 . I don't believe S7201 will crack this top 10 list.


You don't believe the s7201 will "beat" the output of an S2? We are talking four drivers so at a low 20s xmax of say 22mm for the Eminence drivers in the s7201, that's 88mm of excursion, in a larger sealed enclosure, compared to 68mm (lets be generous and say 34mm for each) for the two Fi drivers in the S2. Same Speakerpower 4kw plate amp. The jtr 118 and 218 are ported so not really an apples to apples comparison.

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post #10773 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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You don't believe the s7201 will "beat" the output of an S2? We are talking four drivers so at a low 20s xmax of say 22mm for the Eminence drivers in the s7201, that's 88mm of excursion, in a larger sealed enclosure, compared to 68mm (lets be generous and say 34mm for each) for the two Fi drivers in the S2. Same Speakerpower 4kw plate amp. The jtr 118 and 218 are ported so not really an apples to apples comparison.

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Good points as always. Is it possible? Yes. Would I bet on it? No. Curiously, the PSA S7201 has two large dead spaces in the front. I have no idea what this means and why a sealed design has to be "inefficient" with space like this. It almost looks like a bandpass enclosure, except it is not. Would be fascinating to see a third party pro like Data-Bass's Josh dissect this subwoofer's design.

Another important point that I would like to point out is that unlike a ported design, where a huge enclosure volume is critical with low tune (relationship between chuffing/port area/port length/enclosure volume/Fb), with a sealed design, one monstrous single subwoofer like S7201 is to me not as good as using multiples of smaller ones. With sealed, multiple equivalent smaller units reduce room effect yet do not sacrifice output. The only cost is, of course, cost. One example is the case of 2 JTR S1's versus 1 JTR S2. Smaller multiples cost more, but sound better and, more or less, same output.

So yes, S7201 is cost effective, but it's hugely impractical size wise, and I would vote for multiple smaller sealed's once you are in this price range. Smoother room response, better sound. S7201 is to me a not so impressive and elegant product, engineering wise, once you dwell into the nitty gritty. Some examples: Two JTR S2's (yes I know higher cost) or four stacked DIY single sealed's with 30 Xmax would surpass S7201 WRT to room response, sound, output, and no comparison whatsoever, practicality and look. IMHO as always.

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post #10774 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 09:00 PM
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Good points as always. Is it possible? Yes. Would I bet on it? No. Curiously, the S7201 has two large dead spaces in the front. I have no idea what this means and why a sealed design has to be "inefficient" with space like this. It almost looks like a bandpass enclosure, except it is not. Would be fascinating to see a third party pro like Data-Bass's Josh dissect this subwoofer's design.

Another important point that I would like to point out is that unlike a ported design, where a huge enclosure volume is critical with low tune (relationship between chuffing/port area/port length/enclosure volume/Fb), with a sealed design, one monstrous single subwoofer like S7201 is to me not as good as using multiples of smaller ones. With sealed, multiple equivalent smaller units reduce room effect yet do not sacrifice output. The only cost is, of course, cost. One example is the case of 2 JTR S1's versus 1 JTR S2. Smaller multiples cost more, but sound better and, more or less, same output.

So yes, S7201 is cost effective, but it's hugely impractical size wise, and I would vote for multiple smaller sealed's once you are in this price range. Smoother room response, better sound. S7201 is to me a not so impressive and elegant product, engineering wise, once you dwell into the nitty gritty. Some examples: Two JTR S2's (yes I know higher cost) or four stacked DIY single sealed's with 30 Xmax would surpass S7201 WRT to room response, sound, output, and no comparison whatsoever, practicality and look. IMHO as always.
I'd say it would crack the top 10 @ 10hz if tested, PSA have compression sweeps showing 103dB at 10hz on their site https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S7201

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post #10775 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
I'd say it would crack the top 10 @ 10hz if tested, PSA have compression sweeps showing 103dB at 10hz on their site https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S7201
Yes I've looked at those "perfect" curves that first off don't look like any compression curve at Data-Bass (there is no "compression" seen). Another example: Max S7201's compression output at 30 Hz is 115 dB, vs JTR S2's 120 dB. (Both sealed's should roll off at identical 12 dB's per octave, so why would S7201 be higher at 10 Hz?) So I don't think any conclusion could be drawn from those data. Agreed that it's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it until there is third party testing.
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post #10776 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 09:40 PM
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The 4000 and 2400 are undersized, they are not huge enclosures for an 18 inch(dual) ported 10 hz tuned subs. They require the LF adjust to boost the low end not unlike an LT can be used on a sealed design. You can see that from the response graphs of the ULF series. I would leave DIY out as a comparison as we have way too many options not limited by commercial offerings and shipping.

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post #10777 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 09:53 PM
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The SI 18ht was a 22 mm driver, it hit 90 dB at 10hz. So you are looking at 102 dB at 10hz with 4. There are many ways of getting ULF. Us ULF crazies don’t stop at 10hz, we go lower!
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post #10778 of 12614 Old 11-05-2018, 11:35 PM
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Yes I've looked at those "perfect" curves that first off don't look like any compression curve at Data-Bass (there is no "compression" seen). Another example: Max S7201's compression output at 30 Hz is 115 dB, vs JTR S2's 120 dB. (Both sealed's should roll off at identical 12 dB's per octave, so why would S7201 be higher at 10 Hz?) So I don't think any conclusion could be drawn from those data. Agreed that it's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it until there is third party testing.
I'm assuming PSA are just showing the "clean" sweeps before output compression starts. Likely the next 5dB sweep would show some compression in the low bass. As to the difference at 10hz between the S2 and the 7201, that's probably due to the difference in the signal shaping/EQ applied to the subs by Tom/Jim and Jeff.
If you look at the 110dB CS at databass for the JTR S2 it looks pretty close to the 110dB CS for the 7201, it just looks like the 7201 has another 5dB of clean output before compression, as it should for the MASSIVE size difference! How Jeff milks so much out of the fairly compact S2 and S1 is beyond me.

Honestly, it's not that unbelievable that a HUGE sealed quad 18" sub with a SpeakerPower 4kw amp can do 100dB+ at 10hz, but I agree - I'd love to see databass test it.
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post #10779 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Good points as always. Is it possible? Yes. Would I bet on it? No. Curiously, the PSA S7201 has two large dead spaces in the front. I have no idea what this means and why a sealed design has to be "inefficient" with space like this. It almost looks like a bandpass enclosure, except it is not. Would be fascinating to see a third party pro like Data-Bass's Josh dissect this subwoofer's design.

Another important point that I would like to point out is that unlike a ported design, where a huge enclosure volume is critical with low tune (relationship between chuffing/port area/port length/enclosure volume/Fb), with a sealed design, one monstrous single subwoofer like S7201 is to me not as good as using multiples of smaller ones. With sealed, multiple equivalent smaller units reduce room effect yet do not sacrifice output. The only cost is, of course, cost. One example is the case of 2 JTR S1's versus 1 JTR S2. Smaller multiples cost more, but sound better and, more or less, same output.

So yes, S7201 is cost effective, but it's hugely impractical size wise, and I would vote for multiple smaller sealed's once you are in this price range. Smoother room response, better sound. S7201 is to me a not so impressive and elegant product, engineering wise, once you dwell into the nitty gritty. Some examples: Two JTR S2's (yes I know higher cost) or four stacked DIY single sealed's with 30 Xmax would surpass S7201 WRT to room response, sound, output, and no comparison whatsoever, practicality and look. IMHO as always.
Are you talking about the cavities where the drivers are mounted? The design cancels out the forces acting on the cabinet, so its completely inert, like a dual opposed sub. My diy um18s in 4cuft flat packs are constantly trying to go walkies, which isn't a concern with the 7201.

As for your point that multiple smaller sealed would be better than one s7201, I would agree with you, multiple subs can provide more even bass at the MLP, however that applies to all subs IMO. But you were talking about the data bass top 10, so we are looking at single subwoofers in this case. To follow that logic the S2 should be discontinued, because multiple S1s would provide better in room response. This seems like goal post shifting, first the s7201 wasn't going to be in the "top 10", now it doesnt matter if it does get in there?

Anyway I don't want to get further off topic in the JTR thread, in my view the s7201 was designed as a take no prisoners massive sealed sub, and should be compared with other sealed subs. If it doesnt provide sufficient output then either multiple units or the diy path is available.


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post #10780 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
I'd say it would crack the top 10 @ 10hz if tested, PSA have compression sweeps showing 103dB at 10hz on their site https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/S7201
Of course, cabin gain would have to be figured in, room dependent given this is a sealed design. Then there’s distortion figures that have to be accounted for. Outdoor testing I don’t think the PSA would be able to keep up, but in a sealed HT room I bet it’d be at least closer than I’d originally thought. Once again apples to apples would be tougher given the diffent design characteristics.

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post #10781 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Yes I've looked at those "perfect" curves that first off don't look like any compression curve at Data-Bass (there is no "compression" seen). Another example: Max S7201's compression output at 30 Hz is 115 dB, vs JTR S2's 120 dB. (Both sealed's should roll off at identical 12 dB's per octave, so why would S7201 be higher at 10 Hz?) So I don't think any conclusion could be drawn from those data. Agreed that it's possible, but I wouldn't bet on it until there is third party testing.
Looking at the top trace at 10Hz looks like it only increased in level by 4.5dB versus the expected 5. So compression is there. What they havent shown is the next 5 dB inrease (which I would guess would compress down at the 10Hz level where its prob run out of excursion, and then higher output up higher in the requencies where driver excursion isn't a factor and driver surface area/sensitivity comes into play. Both the S2 and the s7201 are using dsp to boost the low end, so I wouldn't expect a native 12 dB roll off with either.

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post #10782 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 05:20 AM
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I don't have a dog in the fight with respect to whether the S7201 might surpass the S2 for low-frequency extension and output, although logic tells me that it would probably have to. But, I seem to recall a problem with testing dual-opposed designs, that Data-Bass has tried to address in the past.

Apparently, the dual-opposed design is very difficult to measure accurately in a ground plane, and from a single point in space, and the in-room response (with boundaries reinforcing the bass) tends to be a little higher than the quasi-anechoic numbers would suggest. I imagine that single point measurement issue, from 2m, would be even more problematical with the double dual-driver design of the S7201.

Sometimes, new designs produce somewhat unexpected results, and I have gotten the impression from things that have been said about the S7201, that it is a little surprising for a sealed subwoofer in its low-frequency sound and feel.

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post #10783 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 10:35 AM
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The problem I see with comparing the S2 and the S7201 is the design of S7201.

The S2 is straight forward. We can look at it as 2 subwoofers combined. Each is a 33mm X-max driver in a cabinet 1/2 the size of S2 with 2000W of power. Jeff told me that he tried to minimize the cabinet size when he designed the S1/S2.

The S7201 is a little tricky. It looks to be a dual opposed magnet to cone isobaric design. Let's cut it in half, and look at each half containing only 2 drivers. In a magnet to cone isobaric design, the 2nd driver only has +3 dB (not +6dB) efficiency for wiring in parallel. In addition, the cavity where the drivers can be seen should not be included as the cabinet volume.

The above is my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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In my opinion, max output comparison for subs at this top level is meaningless as two of any of these subs would have more output than I can handle. There are a lot more such as how a sub sounds and looks which are more important, at least to me. To the guy that brought up the 7201’s and the 4000ulf’s, I think you will like 2 4000ulf’s more because I prefer ported sub especially when you can only have 2 subs.


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The problem I see with comparing the S2 and the S7201 is the design of S7201.

The S2 is straight forward. We can look at it as 2 subwoofers combined. Each is a 33mm X-max driver in a cabinet 1/2 the size of S2 with 2000W of power. Jeff told me that he tried to minimize the cabinet size when he designed the S1/S2.

The S7201 is a little tricky. It looks to be a dual opposed magnet to cone isobaric design. Let's cut it in half, and look at each half containing only 2 drivers. In a magnet to cone isobaric design, the 2nd driver only has +3 dB (not +6dB) efficiency for wiring in parallel. In addition, the cavity where the drivers can be seen should not be included as the cabinet volume.

The above is my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Hi Chucky,

I would not say that you are wrong in what you are saying, but if I understood what you are saying correctly, then I think that an implied assumption is in error. It is my understanding that doubling any identical drivers in a cabinet can net an increase of 3db. It is only when identical drivers are placed in identical but separate cabinets that they net an increase of 6db. I have no idea whether the 4 drivers used in the S7201 will actually net exactly 4 times what a single driver in that same cabinet would. But, I believe that, in theory, they should.

Regards,
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post #10786 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 11:48 AM
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Hi Chucky,

I would not say that you are wrong in what you are saying, but if I understood what you are saying correctly, then I think that an implied assumption is in error. It is my understanding that doubling any identical drivers in a cabinet can net an increase of 3db. It is only when identical drivers are placed in identical but separate cabinets that they net an increase of 6db. I have no idea whether the 4 drivers used in the S7201 will actually net exactly 4 times what a single driver in that same cabinet would. But, I believe that, in theory, they should.

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Um, let me clarify a little bit.

When looking at the S7201, it may be wrong to consider it as 4 sealed subs, each with 1/4 the internal cabinet volume and driven by 1000W. For simplicity sake, let's assume that each of the 1/4 sub can do 100dB @ 20Hz.

Due the magnet to cone isobaric design, each half of the S7201 may yield only the output of one aforementioned 1/4 sub + 3dB. Therefore, the whole S7201 can produce 109dB @ 20Hz, but not 112dB @ 20Hz.

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post #10787 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I don't have a dog in the fight with respect to whether the S7201 might surpass the S2 for low-frequency extension and output, although logic tells me that it would probably have to. But, I seem to recall a problem with testing dual-opposed designs, that Data-Bass has tried to address in the past.

Apparently, the dual-opposed design is very difficult to measure accurately in a ground plane, and from a single point in space, and the in-room response (with boundaries reinforcing the bass) tends to be a little higher than the quasi-anechoic numbers would suggest. I imagine that single point measurement issue, from 2m, would be even more problematical with the double dual-driver design of the S7201.

Sometimes, new designs produce somewhat unexpected results, and I have gotten the impression from things that have been said about the S7201, that it is a little surprising for a sealed subwoofer in its low-frequency sound and feel.

Regards,
Mike
Typical dual opposes is difficult to measure only because the tester can't point the measurement mike at one driver without the mike being further away from the other driver. Measuring the S7201 is no different from measuring the 4000ULFs or the FV25HPs.

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post #10788 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 12:07 PM
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Um, let me clarify a little bit.

When looking at the S7201, it may be wrong to consider it as 4 sealed subs, each with 1/4 the internal cabinet volume and driven by 1000W. For simplicity sake, let's assume that each of the 1/4 sub can do 100dB @ 20Hz.

Due the magnet to cone isobaric design, each half of the S7201 may yield only the output of one aforementioned 1/4 sub + 3dB. Therefore, the whole S7201 can produce 109dB @ 20Hz, but not 112dB @ 20Hz.

Based on what I have read, there is no difference in output between cone-to-cone and cone-to-magnet designs. There is a difference in whether the drivers are wired to be in-phase or out-of-phase, and there can be a difference with respect to distortion. But, as long as the drivers move together, they should be producing 3db more output per driver. I know that Nathan Funk has done a lot of cone-to-magnet designs, and he measures everything. Perhaps you could ask him for clarification on this issue.

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post #10789 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 12:41 PM
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Um, let me clarify a little bit.

When looking at the S7201, it may be wrong to consider it as 4 sealed subs, each with 1/4 the internal cabinet volume and driven by 1000W. For simplicity sake, let's assume that each of the 1/4 sub can do 100dB @ 20Hz.

Due the magnet to cone isobaric design, each half of the S7201 may yield only the output of one aforementioned 1/4 sub + 3dB. Therefore, the whole S7201 can produce 109dB @ 20Hz, but not 112dB @ 20Hz.
They aren't running in isobaric configuration, if we define that to be acoustically loading one driver with another. Each driver is moving forward at the same time and they share the same air spring (the two inverted drivers have their polarity swapped and are using the rear of their cones).

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Hi Chucky,

I would not say that you are wrong in what you are saying, but if I understood what you are saying correctly, then I think that an implied assumption is in error. It is my understanding that doubling any identical drivers in a cabinet can net an increase of 3db. It is only when identical drivers are placed in identical but separate cabinets that they net an increase of 6db. I have no idea whether the 4 drivers used in the S7201 will actually net exactly 4 times what a single driver in that same cabinet would. But, I believe that, in theory, they should.

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3 dB comes from the driver, 3 dBs come from the power. You need to add more power accordingly to get the full 6 dB. So if one driver needs 1000 watts to reach 100 dB then two drivers and 2000 watts gets you 6 dB, assuming they are in phase and mutually coupling. One time I kept moving my subs around to see where I would get 6 dB across most of the response and it turns out, anywhere in my room. Of course certain spots would block the upper bass like my seats.

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post #10791 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 01:14 PM
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They aren't running in isobaric configuration, if we define that to be acoustically loading one driver with another. Each driver is moving forward at the same time and they share the same air spring (the two inverted drivers have their polarity swapped and are using the rear of their cones).
Yeah. That's why I posted "Please correct me if I am wrong"

You are into DIY so I believe you have more grasp of this than I do.
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post #10792 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 01:20 PM
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3 dB comes from the driver, 3 dBs come from the power. You need to add more power accordingly to get the full 6 dB. So if one driver needs 1000 watts to reach 100 dB then two drivers and 2000 watts gets you 6 dB, assuming they are in phase and mutually coupling. One time I kept moving my subs around to see where I would get 6 dB across most of the response and it turns out, anywhere in my room. Of course certain spots would block the upper bass like my seats.

Agreed! Adding a second standalone subwoofer was the example I used. But, in theory at least, I believe you could add 6db in at least 4 different ways. A separate identical subwoofer is one way. Doubling both driver and amp power, within the same cabinet, would be a second. Doubling both driver and cabinet volume would be a third. And, doubling both amp power and cabinet volume would be a fourth.

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^^^Mmmm that's not right. Your first two examples are the same thing whether they're in the same cab or not. James is right. Double voltage, ie power, and double drivers. Cabinet volume only dictates the amount of power you need to get there but max db remains the same.

Either way it's all hypothetical since was as mentioned PSA isn't sending in the 7201 in for testing. Tom would prolly lose $500 alone in shipping. Also no one knows the specs of the 18's in the 7201 but I highly doubt they're capable of 33mm Xmax. However, there's four of them and even if their Xmax was around 20, and Sd was similar, it *should* still beat an S2. Once you factor in size and cost though it's whatever matters to you more.

I find the recent threads and comments on TR and which sub would beat this one comical. All these subs are capable of some serious performance and more than enough for 99% of the bassheads on these forums. The 4000ulf and 7201 are monster subs where two of them would satisfy anyone except the crazies in the DIY section. Also unless the FR of the subs talked about are eq'd to the *exact* same response in the *exact* same room and placement it's all bs. A couple db swing at one frequency or another will sway anyone. Any movie or music played to compare the subs where that frequency is present will always sound or feel louder.

Just relax and enjoy your subs.
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^^^Mmmm that's not right. Your first two examples are the same thing whether they're in the same cab or not. James is right. Double voltage, ie power, and double drivers. Cabinet volume only dictates the amount of power you need to get there but max db remains the same.



Either way it's all hypothetical since was as mentioned PSA isn't sending in the 7201 in for testing. Tom would prolly lose $500 alone in shipping. Also no one knows the specs of the 18's in the 7201 but I highly doubt they're capable of 33mm Xmax. However, there's four of them and even if their Xmax was around 20, and Sd was similar, it *should* still beat an S2. Once you factor in size and cost though it's whatever matters to you more.



I find the recent threads and comments on TR and which sub would beat this one comical. All these subs are capable of some serious performance and more than enough for 99% of the bassheads on these forums. The 4000ulf and 7201 are monster subs where two of them would satisfy anyone except the crazies in the DIY section. Also unless the FR of the subs talked about are eq'd to the *exact* same response in the *exact* same room and placement it's all bs. A couple db swing at one frequency or another will sway anyone. Any movie or music played to compare the subs where that frequency is present will always sound or feel louder.



Just relax and enjoy your subs.


Man, your tone is quite condescending. The discussions have been quite informative and not sure how you can speak for 99% of the folks here. Additionally the discussion involved some knowledgeable members of the forum so to disregard all that has been said comes across as quite arrogant. The FRs are indicative and not absolute, anyone knows that. So your post is not very informative nor is it clear as to your intent.


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post #10795 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 04:15 PM
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Man, your tone is quite condescending. The discussions have been quite informative and not sure how you can speak for 99% of the folks here. Additionally the discussion involved some knowledgeable members of the forum so to disregard all that has been said comes across as quite arrogant. The FRs are indicative and not absolute, anyone knows that. So your post is not very informative nor is it clear as to your intent.


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Condescending to who??

I gave some valid info on the comparison between the two subs being discussed and basically said all the subs are amazing from any of the ID companies. If you took offense I'm sorry but that wasn't my intent.

All these subs are capable of serious SPL and TR. Everyone will have their preference for sure but other than one extending lower than the other you're nitpicking. PSA, JTR, Rythmik, Seaton, HSU(kinda)SVS, DSS, Funk, etc, there's more I'm possibly forgetting, all make great subs with variety in spades. I'm saying anyone would be happy with any one of them....in multiples of course.

As far as FR goes yes it is absolute. All things being equal, FR you hear first and foremost. That's why we EQ. Now if you wanna bring up different room constructions, couches with different resonant frequencies, distortion, etc than yah those matter too but if all is kept the same and before distortion sets in you'll hear FR above ALL else. I do agree ported being more tactile than sealed because of particle velocity. If the FR's on two subs vary you will hear it, either for the better or worse. I don't think anyone on these forums would dispute that.

Did the smilies help??

Edit: Not sure what my "intent" would be so no comment on that.
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Condescending to who??



I gave some valid info on the comparison between the two subs being discussed and basically said all the subs are amazing from any of the ID companies. If you took offense I'm sorry but that wasn't my intent.



All these subs are capable of serious SPL and TR. Everyone will have their preference for sure but other than one extending lower than the other you're nitpicking. PSA, JTR, Rythmik, Seaton, HSU(kinda)SVS, DSS, Funk, etc, there's more I'm possibly forgetting, all make great subs with variety in spades. I'm saying anyone would be happy with any one of them....in multiples of course.



As far as FR goes yes it is absolute. All things being equal, FR you hear first and foremost. That's why we EQ. Now if you wanna bring up different room constructions, couches with different resonant frequencies, distortion, etc than yah those matter too but if all is kept the same and before distortion sets in you'll hear FR above ALL else. I do agree ported being more tactile than sealed because of particle velocity. If the FR's on two subs vary you will hear it, either for the better or worse. I don't think anyone on these forums would dispute that.



Did the smilies help??



Edit: Not sure what my "intent" would be so no comment on that.


Now that was a much clearer post

I agree all the brands you have indicated make great subs but there are clear differences between them and what they focus on. So I don’t think that pointing out the differences between them is not nitpicking. The differences are also quite evident on most content.

On the FR I meant is that if I present my FR to you for my subs of course it would be indicative for you as the FR in your room for the same sub could be entirely different. So no one makes a decision to buy or not buy a sub based on someone else’s FR.


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post #10797 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 05:17 PM
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Now that was a much clearer post

I agree all the brands you have indicated make great subs but there are clear differences between them and what they focus on. So I don’t think that pointing out the differences between them is not nitpicking. The differences are also quite evident on most content.

On the FR I meant is that if I present my FR to you for my subs of course it would be indicative for you as the FR in your room for the same sub could be entirely different. So no one makes a decision to buy or not buy a sub based on someone else’s FR.


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I'm saying comparing two subs in your room, or anyone's, without having the same FR is not an apples-to-apples comparison. No one can say this one has more TR than the other without that being the same and I've seen it mentioned a lot lately. Heck Rythmik even changed the driver in the FV18 to be more "tactile". It's just a more sensitive driver with maybe some T/S tweaks is all so you get another 3db out of it for the same power. Idk how that's more "tactile".

TR is directly related to SPL which is directly related to FR. If you have a s*** response at some frequencies your TR will suffer. In the end if they're not the same then your comparison isn't valid.

Other than extending lower, whether it be sealed by dsp differences or ported by tune, what differences are there? Bass is bass. Midbass is easy. ULF is not. Ask @MKtheater and some of these guys who've done multiple alignments. If FR, with no distortion of course, is the same they'll sound the same and if you're comparing two subs with different tunes the nod should go to the lower tuned sub. Idk any of the ID companies whose subs can't do midbass well so all that really matters is ULF and how far down you wanna go *if* you care enough to spend the money. The 4000ULF and 7201 are by no means cheap. At that point it might be based off CS and size.

I've just seen these conversations a lot lately where someone says "this sub is more tactile then this sub" and I think they should be taken with a grain of salt since no one has compared them on an even playing field. Besides all the subs are top-notch nowadays. If Tom does indeed come out with a LLT sub then it'll be even better.
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post #10798 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 05:28 PM
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Don’t ask me what alignment gives me the most TR on my concrete floor. Let’s just say it involves a LT.
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post #10799 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 05:28 PM
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I'm saying comparing two subs in your room, or anyone's, without having the same FR is not an apples-to-apples comparison. No one can say this one has more TR than the other without that being the same and I've seen it mentioned a lot lately. Heck Rythmik even changed the driver in the FV18 to be more "tactile". It's just a more sensitive driver with maybe some T/S tweaks is all so you get another 3db out of it for the same power. Idk how that's more "tactile".



TR is directly related to SPL which is directly related to FR. If you have a s*** response at some frequencies your TR will suffer. In the end if they're not the same then your comparison isn't valid.



Other than extending lower, whether it be sealed by dsp differences or ported by tune, what differences are there? Bass is bass. Midbass is easy. ULF is not. Ask @MKtheater and some of these guys who've done multiple alignments. If FR, with no distortion of course, is the same they'll sound the same and if you're comparing two subs with different tunes the nod should go to the lower tuned sub. Idk any of the ID companies whose subs can't do midbass well so all that really matters is ULF and how far down you wanna go *if* you care enough to spend the money. The 4000ULF and 7201 are by no means cheap. At that point it might be based off CS and size.



I've just seen these conversations a lot lately where someone says "this sub is more tactile then this sub" and I think they should be taken with a grain of salt since no one has compared them on an even playing field. Besides all the subs are top-notch nowadays. If Tom does indeed come out with a LLT sub then it'll be even better.


If you check out the thread I posted a couple of weeks ago that is exactly what I did where multiple subs were compared under the same conditions and set up and a lot of conversation lately has been spurred due to that recent comparison and the Houston GTG. So why can I not compare subs in my room and provide my views on the TR or ULF performance of a sub? I am not saying the same TR would be felt by some one else in their room. I think everyone understands that.

Also what you say about ULF is what everyone on this thread says and agrees with so not sure why you are pointing it out. I am sorry but I am still not sure what exactly you are trying to point out.


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post #10800 of 12614 Old 11-06-2018, 06:10 PM
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Don’t ask me what alignment gives me the most TR on my concrete floor. Let’s just say it involves a LT.
Is that an LT or LLT?

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If you check out the thread I posted a couple of weeks ago that is exactly what I did where multiple subs were compared under the same conditions and set up and a lot of conversation lately has been spurred due to that recent comparison and the Houston GTG. So why can I not compare subs in my room and provide my views on the TR or ULF performance of a sub? I am not saying the same TR would be felt by some one else in their room. I think everyone understands that.

Also what you say about ULF is what everyone on this thread says and agrees with so not sure why you are pointing it out. I am sorry but I am still not sure what exactly you are trying to point out.


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No everyone doesn't agree or else we wouldn't be comparing a dual 18" ported sub tuned to 10hz with a sealed sub with 4 18's and arguing which is better. I was trying to reason with the guys defending their brands lately. They're all great subs. Pick one and be happy. Most of the posters here know the differences and still argue. Again I was simply saying for anyone following along to take the TR and "this sub is better than this sub" talk with a grain of salt.

You can do whatever you want I really don't care. In your thread the FR's weren't the same, with the 20db increments it's worse than it appears, and because of the different tunes the Rythmik of course dug lower and you picked the sub with the lowest tune. I for one would've liked to have seen the 2400ULF in that graph. At these price points all the subs are great and this I think these constant JTR vs Rythmik vs PSA comparisons are silly when it's different tunes and/or designs.

I've just seen all the TR comments lately and none were made comparing subs with the same FR. Just figured I'd mention it to whoever is reading in my post if that's ok with you. If you don't agree that's your right. YMMV.
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