Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 372 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11131 of 13071 Old 12-14-2018, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
its coming in atmos soon... when do you get your JTRs @chucky7 ?
Yeah, the Predator (2018)'s surround effect could be better with Atmos.

I did switch to the 212HTs at the eleventh hour and there is a delay on other items that I also want to include in the shipment. My estimate is I should get it around New Years.

I am anxious to hear the magic from the JTR 212HTs but I have also told Jeff to take his time.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 12-14-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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post #11132 of 13071 Old 12-15-2018, 02:14 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Let me know what you think:

Sub 1 svs sb2000 when running on music/ movies things are shaking.

Sub 2 jtr 2400 when running on music/ movie I feel like I need to set my avr to his limit only to get to the same point as the svs one ...

About the setting, the gain level is on 3 a clock,
LF to boost, crossover -out, delay - set to 0

Sub trim is the same for both subs nothing was change -8 and no EQ ...
Only position is different but I’ve tried to play it on a small room and still no big difference?

By the way, If I will run YouTube bass test the driver playing good and freely .

It’s like it doesn’t put all the power he have
What am I missing ?



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Last edited by asafalfa; 12-15-2018 at 02:26 PM.
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post #11133 of 13071 Old 12-15-2018, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asafalfa View Post
Let me know what you think:

Sub 1 svs sb2000 when running on music/ movies things are shaking.

Sub 2 jtr 2400 when running on music/ movie I feel like I need to set my avr to his limit only to get to the same point as the svs one ...

About the setting, the gain level is on 3 a clock,
LF to boost, crossover -out, delay - set to 0

Sub trim is the same for both subs nothing was change -8 and no EQ ...
Only position is different but I’ve tried to play it on a small room and still no big difference?

By the way, If I will run YouTube bass test the driver playing good and freely .

It’s like it doesn’t put all the power he have
What am I missing ?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How are you calibrating both subs. What receiver? Different amps can have different gain structures.

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post #11134 of 13071 Old 12-16-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
How are you calibrating both subs. What receiver? Different amps can have different gain structures.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I did not I just connected it for the first time.
It was calibrated but according to the svs.
The receiver is Onkyo tx-sr606




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post #11135 of 13071 Old 12-16-2018, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asafalfa View Post
I did not I just connected it for the first time.
It was calibrated but according to the svs.
The receiver is Onkyo tx-sr606




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Just guessing based on what you have said, it sounds like you did not calibrate the JTR sub at all. I wouldn't expect any sub to sound good if you don't set it up or calibrate to play at the proper level.
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post #11136 of 13071 Old 12-16-2018, 09:55 PM
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as some of you know i have recently sold off the 3 rythmik fv25hp subwoofers i have been using for the past year. i'm currently debating between trying my hand at some sort of DIY solution or giving into the dark-side and starting off with a pair of captivator 4000's. i have ample room behind me to accommodate multiple configurations--either 3 standard depth units on their side, or 3 low-profile units standing upright against the rear wall. the standard depth units actually intrigue me more as i could add additional units in the future (stand 6 upright, stack 3 on top of the 3 laying horizontal, or stack 6 on top of the 6 standing vertical...--yes i have an illness but i think that has already been established).

while the rythmik subs were extremely precise, fast and accurate, i found myself chasing tactile energy--which they could do but i was just never happy with the amount that they could output (and to be fair, those subwoofers are what introduced me to the feeling of having both my seating & body shake in a way i have never felt before). the day i decided to sell the subwoofers was when i had a look behind the units and saw that i was clipping them and wanting for more while messing around with some content (unsure if amp or driver limited but regardless a problem that i kept running into). i keep reading about how the jtr subs have more particle/tactile energy & port-wind than basically every other ID offering and i'm guessing it has something to do with the difference in driver excursion/size, amplifier power, cabinet size and possibly other variables i'm not accounting for (some kind of secret sauce??).

i'm acutely aware that most of you probably think i should be committed to a psychiatric ward for considering this upgrade given my room size, but i'm extremely intrigued by the capabilities of the captivator 4000. three ported dual 15's wasn't enough for me when i want to beat on my system. of course it was enough for most movies but when you want to vibrate your internal organs there just wasn't enough horsepower. for anyone curious i'm out exactly $1k after having sold the trio to two different buyers. if you do the math on that it effectively cost me ~$83/mo to "lease" the subs this past year which is okay in my book--that probably amounts to the average amount of interest most people pay for new car loans

i'm sure some of you remember me posting here in this thread after having sold my pair of fv15hp's last year around this time. well, i'm back and open to suggestions.
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post #11137 of 13071 Old 12-16-2018, 10:42 PM
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I wonder if 2 JTR ULF4000's will have as much energy as 3 FV25HPs, surely they will in certain frequency ranges, but not across the board. I have yet to hear the JTR secret sauce either, I am very into sub sound quality so I would be very critical there. I look forward to seeing your build and seeing what you go with. I am limited by my house, which sucks because budget is no problem whatsoever.

Greg
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post #11138 of 13071 Old 12-16-2018, 10:49 PM
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when you get more xmax from the drivers its harder to keep them from not distorting...but with subs, many want/like the distortion...I knew people in car audio world that went as high as 30% distortion for that feel.
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post #11139 of 13071 Old 12-16-2018, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muscles View Post
I wonder if 2 JTR ULF4000's will have as much energy as 3 FV25HPs, surely they will in certain frequency ranges, but not across the board. I have yet to hear the JTR secret sauce either, I am very into sub sound quality so I would be very critical there. I look forward to seeing your build and seeing what you go with. I am limited by my house, which sucks because budget is no problem whatsoever.

Greg
serith asked me that question so I will paraphrase my reply here...

Below is the comparison in output between 3 FV25HP and 2 4000ULFs:



Basically, from 12~50 Hz, the 4000ULFs will provide 50% more output and be almost twice as loud at 10Hz.

The ground shaking TR comes from output in ULF. Therefore, having this much more output at 10Hz will be sick.

IMHO, Jeff's secret sauce is from the driver he uses. I believe the TR is just the byproduct of the driver that he customizes that fits his design goal in producing JTR's signature sound: his desired level of THD - higher than Rythmik, but never too high to make the JTR subs sound bad.

At reference level, both systems will produce THD well under 10%. Therefore, both will sound really really good, but different. The JTR subs will just provide more TR.

PSA's 18" driver has a similar 20mm X-max as the 18" Rythmik driver, yet the PSA V1801 has more TR than the Rythmik FV18 Alum cone.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 12-16-2018 at 11:50 PM.
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post #11140 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post

Basically, from 12~50 Hz, the 4000ULFs will provide 50% more output and be almost twice as loud at 10Hz.

The ground shaking TR comes from output in ULF. Therefore, having this much more output at 10Hz will be sick.
sold.

now the question is which profile captivator to buy. i'm still not sure.

*edit* - @chucky7 , can you show me the comparison between 3 cap4000 & 3 fv25hp? not sure how you are creating those data points but curious what it looks like. while i think i'll start with a pair i really would like 3 laying across the rear of the room like what i had before.
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Last edited by serith; 12-17-2018 at 12:15 AM.
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post #11141 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serith View Post
sold.

now the question is which profile captivator to buy. i'm still not sure.

*edit* - @chucky7 , can you show me the comparison between 3 cap4000 & 3 fv25hp? not sure how you are creating those data points but curious what it looks like. while i think i'll start with a pair i really would like 3 laying across the rear of the room like what i had before.
3 Cap 4000ULFs vs 3 FV25HPs:



@ 10 Hz, 3 Cap 4000ULFs are equivalent to almost 12 FV25HPs.
12Hz ~ 50HZ, 3 Cap 4000ULFs are equivalent to 6 FV25HPs.
> 63Hz, 3 Cap 4000ULFs are equivalent to 4.5 FV25HPs.

The LP version allows you to place them along the wall, without taking up valuable floor space. This means you can have at least 3 of them along the back wall and still have a second row of seating. You can also place 2 of them along the front side walls and 1 at the rear center. You can also place the LP version right behind your seats to get the ultimate TR.

Before I ordered JTR Neosis 212HTs, I was strongly considering getting another 4000ULF. Since this one will be at the rear of my HT, I was also looking at the LP version.

By the way, just in case you are not aware, for a $500 fee, Jeff can customize the shape of the 4000ULF. For example, in order to maintain the same performance, he can make the regular 4000ULF 72" tall x 22.5" deep, 65" tall x 25" deep, 60" tall x 27" deep, or 55" tall x 29.5" deep.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 12-17-2018 at 09:48 AM.
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post #11142 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
serith asked me that question so I will paraphrase my reply here...

Below is the comparison in output between 3 FV25HP and 2 4000ULFs:



Basically, from 12~50 Hz, the 4000ULFs will provide 50% more output and be almost twice as loud at 10Hz.

The ground shaking TR comes from output in ULF. Therefore, having this much more output at 10Hz will be sick.

IMHO, Jeff's secret sauce is from the driver he uses. I believe the TR is just the byproduct of the driver that he customizes that fits his design goal in producing JTR's signature sound: his desired level of THD - higher than Rythmik, but never too high to make the JTR subs sound bad.

At reference level, both systems will produce THD well under 10%. Therefore, both will sound really really good, but different. The JTR subs will just provide more TR.

PSA's 18" driver has a similar 20mm X-max as the 18" Rythmik driver, yet the PSA V1801 has more TR than the Rythmik FV18 Alum cone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serith View Post
sold.

now the question is which profile captivator to buy. i'm still not sure.

*edit* - @chucky7 , can you show me the comparison between 3 cap4000 & 3 fv25hp? not sure how you are creating those data points but curious what it looks like. while i think i'll start with a pair i really would like 3 laying across the rear of the room like what i had before.
Hi,

I think that the Cap 4000's will be relatively even stronger than what Chucky's chart shows. And, they will have an enormous advantage in tactile response. In my opinion, that will truly be a night-and-day difference!

With respect to the relative loudness at low-frequencies, we have to remember an ideosyncracy in the way our hearing works. According to the Equal Loudness Contours, an increase of 10db is perceived as a 100% increase in loudness at 1000Hz. But, that formula changes as frequencies drop below 120Hz, and it accelerates at frequencies below 70Hz. You can see the contour lines moving closer and closer together and leveling-off at around 30Hz. According to Linkwitz, and others, at 30Hz and below a 5db increase in SPL is equal to a doubling (100% increase) in loudness. Section VII-C of the Guide illustrates the Equal Loudness Contours, and shares a link to more information on this aspect of our hearing.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...nces.html#VIIC

Most of us don't really hear frequencies below about 15Hz, but we feel them as low-bass energy, and they add weight to what we do hear. The point is that an increase of 8db at 10Hz isn't equal to nearly a doubling in loudness; it is equal to a loudness increase of about 160%. That is a huge difference! And, even at 20Hz, the dual Cap 4000's will be about 80% louder than the three FV25's.

Part of the reason that I mention all of this is to suggest that serith may want to start with just two Cap 4000's. I know that money is no object in this exercise, but that's a lot of money to pay for just another 3db of headroom, when the increase he will already be getting is so profound. And, more could always be added later, if necessary. Just a thought!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #11143 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 09:06 AM
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I don’t think Serith’s problem was spl, it was TR. higher spl does not equate higher TR linearly. There is no doubt that 3 4000ulfs will have ALOT more TR than 3 FV25’s whether that will be enough for Serith in his concrete basement is another question . Perhaps, 6 4000ulfs might do
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post #11144 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 09:12 AM
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What about 2 4000ulfs flanking an Orbit Shifter, all sitting in the back of his couch? More or less TR than 3 4000ulfs? I have heard them both and I say moar

Last edited by tvuong; 12-17-2018 at 09:35 AM.
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post #11145 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 11:05 AM
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Could you make a chart for the JTR CAPTIVATOR 2400 vs the PSA v3611?

Currently, 5.1 setup
AVR - Denon AVR-X4400H
Sub - SVS PB-4000
Mains - Klipsch RP-600M
Surrounds - Klipsch satellite speakers
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post #11146 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I don’t think Serith’s problem was spl, it was TR. higher spl does not equate higher TR linearly. There is no doubt that 3 4000ulfs will have ALOT more TR than 3 FV25’s whether that will be enough for Serith in his concrete basement is another question . Perhaps, 6 4000ulfs might do
from everything i'm reading and hearing from current jtr owners i think it really might be enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Part of the reason that I mention all of this is to suggest that serith may want to start with just two Cap 4000's.
yeah the plan is to definitely start with just a pair. it's nice knowing i can add a third later though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
The LP version allows you to place them along the wall, without taking up valuable floor space. This means you can have at least 3 of them along the back wall and still have a second row of seating. You can also place 2 of them along the front side walls and 1 at the rear center. You can also place the LP version right behind your seats to get the ultimate TR.
what worries me with the LP version is when i had the rythmiks standing upright i wasn't a fan of how they sounded (certain frequencies were more impact-full but the TR was much less) and ultimately i much preferred them laying down. i think it's probably best not to tempt fate and just mirror what worked before. i know i can't have a 2nd row of seating if i do this but i am going to add a 4th seat to my single row of seating which is about as much as i can do given the room constraints. also, if i did go with LP and added a 2nd row, the back row would have more TR than the front row (closer to the subs), and i believe the seating from the backrow would actually eat up some of that TR simply because of the mass of the furniture which translates to less TR in my body sitting in the MLP in the front row. no deal! haha.


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post #11147 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I don’t think Serith’s problem was spl, it was TR. higher spl does not equate higher TR linearly. There is no doubt that 3 4000ulfs will have ALOT more TR than 3 FV25’s whether that will be enough for Serith in his concrete basement is another question . Perhaps, 6 4000ulfs might do
2 cap4000's right behind the seating location will have enough TR to completely render your ability to see properly (or at all for that matter) when seated, even on a concrete subfloor. If more TR is wanted, I'd suggest a floating platform...
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post #11148 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfar54 View Post
Could you make a chart for the JTR CAPTIVATOR 2400 vs the PSA v3611?
I assume you are talking to me?

In order to make an output comparison chart, I would need 3rd party (preferable) Max burst SPL numbers at individual data points. Therefore, I can't do that with the current PSA subs...
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #11149 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
2 cap4000's right behind the seating location will have enough TR to completely render your ability to see properly (or at all for that matter) when seated, even on a concrete subfloor.
this guy gets what i'm after.


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post #11150 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serith View Post
What worries me with the LP version is when i had the rythmiks standing upright i wasn't a fan of how they sounded (certain frequencies were more impact-full but the TR was much less) and ultimately i much preferred them laying down. i think it's probably best not to tempt fate and just mirror what worked before. i know i can't have a 2nd row of seating if i do this but i am going to add a 4th seat to my single row of seating which is about as much as i can do given the room constraints. also, if i did go with LP and added a 2nd row, the back row would have more TR than the front row (closer to the subs), and i believe the seating from the backrow would actually eat up some of that TR simply because of the mass of the furniture which translates to less TR in my body sitting in the MLP in the front row. no deal! haha.
Without actually measuring the FR in your room, it's a best guess scenario. First world problem...

With the regular version, assuming you want to aim the drivers at the front of the room, you will have the drivers at least 44" from the back wall. If you don't place the 4000ULF along the side walls, the subs will protrude almost 4 ft into the room. The original 2400ULF was also 39 inches deep. Once the shallower 22.5" deep version was available, it became JTR's best seller.

The picture below should give you a better perspective: From left: Rythmik FV18, my Cap 1400, the 2400ULF, and my 4000ULF.



Notice how much the 4000ULF sticks out? Your FV25HP has a similar depth as the FV18/1400/2400ULF. That's why I had to lay it down in my HT, without it blocking my front right speaker. FYI, the FV25HP is 4" taller than the 2400ULF.

Regular version:




The LP version:



With the LP version, if you line the subs at the back the room, the drivers will be 21" from the back wall. You can also move them closer. You can also put the LP version behind your AT screen!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 12-17-2018 at 12:31 PM.
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post #11151 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
You can also put the LP version behind your AT screen!
yeah i also thought of that, will have to tinker with the faux-wall to get it to fit but thankfully already have 2 rca drops & 2 dedicated outlets for any subs that find themselves up there. yay future proofing the room when i built it
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post #11152 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 01:15 PM
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Hey serith, Where have you been? I am in New Hartford and been waiting for another AVSer to be around me, well, close enough. The JTR subs should provide that TR you are after. I prefer high excursion, high TR drivers on concrete to less excursion, less TR on wood.

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post #11153 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 02:04 PM
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2 cap4000's right behind the seating location will have enough TR to completely render your ability to see properly (or at all for that matter) when seated, even on a concrete subfloor
I never had that feeling or even chest thump feeling even at close to 150db.

Last edited by tvuong; 12-17-2018 at 02:14 PM.
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post #11154 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I never had that feeling or even chess thump feeling even at close to 150db.
The closest I have felt (similar to what I felt at Katy Perry concert or a night club ) lately would be the night club scene in Mission Impossible: Fall out. I was playing at MV of -3dB, 5dB higher than my normal MV.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 12-17-2018 at 04:09 PM.
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post #11155 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 02:33 PM
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Hey serith, Where have you been? I am in New Hartford and been waiting for another AVSer to be around me, well, close enough. The JTR subs should provide that TR you are after. I prefer high excursion, high TR drivers on concrete to less excursion, less TR on wood.
hey! yeah we're not too far apart. by the way i still have a single fv25hp and will until friday evening when i pack it in the car for the saturday trip out to MA to sell it--if you want a listen.

and yeah the single vented 15 rythmiks i had upstairs on a suspended wood floor were awesome. while the fv25 trio could do things those couldn't, the floor doesn't heave anymore


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post #11156 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I never had that feeling or even chest thump feeling even at close to 150db.
Yeah, the only time that I experienced what @beastaudio describes was over 25 years ago when I had two Cerwin Vega 18" subs directly behind my front car seats taking up (had to remove) the entire back seat in a ported enclosure driven by a Rockford Fosgate Power 650. Man I'm old, LOL. The bass would literally make your eyes orbit in a circular motion and make you feel nauseous. Talk about an orbital shifter! It rippled the car apart, but damn it was fun.

That being said, the two Cap 2400 flanking my couch (MLP) give me plenty of "good vibration". I can only imagine what two, or three near field Cap 4000s might do.
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post #11157 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 03:02 PM
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I just saw this... Subwoofer porn... Perfect!!!

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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 12-17-2018 at 05:13 PM.
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post #11158 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^@chucky7

Subwoofer porn is right!

Regards, Can
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post #11159 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, the Predator (2018)'s surround effect could be better with Atmos.

I did switch to the 212HTs at the eleventh hour and there is a delay on other items that I also want to include in the shipment. My estimate is I should get it around New Years.

I am anxious to hear the magic from the JTR 212HTs but I have also told Jeff to take his time.


Great choice and congrats, but... (with good intention here and yes I realize more $$$, but these things last forever) have you considered 210RT? http://jtrspeakers.com/noesis_210rt.html

Yes smaller 10" woofer, but 3 way, and I always seem to like the mid-bass punch of a 10 inchers for music. You already have 4000 to cover the ultra low.
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Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
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post #11160 of 13071 Old 12-17-2018, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Hey serith, Where have you been? I am in New Hartford and been waiting for another AVSer to be around me, well, close enough. The JTR subs should provide that TR you are after. I prefer high excursion, high TR drivers on concrete to less excursion, less TR on wood.
hey! yeah we're not too far apart. by the way i still have a single fv25hp and will until friday evening when i pack it in the car for the saturday trip out to MA to sell it--if you want a listen.

and yeah the single vented 15 rythmiks i had upstairs on a suspended wood floor were awesome. while the fv25 trio could do things those couldn't, the floor doesn't heave anymore [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]
I am driving through town on Wednesday.

Nothing right now
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