Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 391 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11701 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gutcheck2001 View Post
Order placed. Two 2400 ULF’s. What movie should I watch first? Leaning toward Tron.
a documentary on DEW (directed energy weapons) and familiarizing self with the consequences of their use
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post #11702 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 09:20 AM
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a documentary on DEW (directed energy weapons) and familiarizing self with the consequences of their use
War of the Worlds, Incredible Hulk
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post #11703 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 10:16 AM
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War of the Worlds, Incredible Hulk
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post #11704 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Allow me to expand why I suggested movies with sub 15 Hz to "test" the ULF 2400 (Hulk, War of the Worlds, HTTYD, etc.). Let's say a movie calls for 3 successive 12 Hz explosions, at (your volume settings) 96 dB, then 100 dB, then 108 dB. What loudness will two JTR subwoofers produce?

Through my JTR 1400: 96, 96, 96 (and MORE harmonic distortion)
Through the JTR 2400: 96, 100, 108

Only through 2400, will listeners hear the gradation in loudness of the 3 explosions. The last explosion, 2400 beats my beloved 1400 (itself one of the most powerful subwoofers on market) by a full 12 dB. This increase in loudness is also there regardless of room interaction or room correction. ie Regardless of how "low" one's room measures, unless there is a null mode, the 2400 will produce 3 successive increasingly louder explosions, the 1400 will not.



Regards, Can
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #11705 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gutcheck2001 View Post
I listed my v3601 just in time for Valentine’s Day. After all it’s what every woman wants.
Thanks for the good laugh.

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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
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post #11706 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by gutcheck2001 View Post
Something like that should be mass produced. I don’t think height is it hard to accommodate as depth. The one thing about the cap 4000 is that it’s so deep most people have no place to put it. I can accommodate a subwoofer that 72 inches tall in the back of my room. I am Magine it’s the same with most people.
Easier said than done. You would need about double the enclosure size to gain any appreciable output in the ULF range. If you don't increase the enclosure size you will overload the enclosure/port and just end up with compression no matter how much driver displacement/power you throw at it.

As you mentioned going vertical makes the most sense space wise but now you have a 500lb+ beast to contend with moving. It would make more sense to just buy two cap 4000s and stack them yourself
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post #11707 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 04:25 PM
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The 2400ULFs have arrived in pristine condition. They're warming up right now after spending time in transit in winter so I'm not going to play around until tomorrow. That's the good news.

Now the bad news, I did plug them in and found that I too have a ground loop issue... the hum is coming from every speaker I have. I never had it with the V3601's but it exists with the 2400ULFs. I don't have cable but I do have satellite TV... can that cause the same issue as cable?

Anyway, the good news is I isolated the circuit that the ground loop exists on and have an outlet fairly near to one of the subs that I can use that doesn't have the loop. With this one I can just run a surge protector with a longer cord and it will be fine. But the other sub is is not near the outlet so it poses an issue. So I have a couple of questions:

1. What's the issue with using a cheater plug? I assume it could void a warranty by the way some guys comment on them. Has anyone had a cheater plug cause any issues where their warranty was voided? Because obviously the plug is an easy solution.

2. For the guys running dual 2400ULF's or 2400's do you run both subs off the same circuit with any problems? I may try and run power from the non offending outlet to both subs if this seems plausible.

3. Since I know the offending circuit what can be dome to cure the circuit of the loop? What can an electrician do to fix the issue?

Tomorrow I'm going to let these subs off their leash but I have to get the loop fixed first. Any thoughts?
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post #11708 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
The 2400ULFs have arrived in pristine condition. They're warming up right now after spending time in transit in winter so I'm not going to play around until tomorrow. That's the good news.

Now the bad news, I did plug them in and found that I too have a ground loop issue... the hum is coming from every speaker I have. I never had it with the V3601's but it exists with the 2400ULFs. I don't have cable but I do have satellite TV... can that cause the same issue as cable?

Anyway, the good news is I isolated the circuit that the ground loop exists on and have an outlet fairly near to one of the subs that I can use that doesn't have the loop. With this one I can just run a surge protector with a longer cord and it will be fine. But the other sub is is not near the outlet so it poses an issue. So I have a couple of questions:

1. What's the issue with using a cheater plug? I assume it could void a warranty by the way some guys comment on them. Has anyone had a cheater plug cause any issues where their warranty was voided? Because obviously the plug is an easy solution.

2. For the guys running dual 2400ULF's or 2400's do you run both subs off the same circuit with any problems? I may try and run power from the non offending outlet to both subs if this seems plausible.

3. Since I know the offending circuit what can be dome to cure the circuit of the loop? What can an electrician do to fix the issue?

Tomorrow I'm going to let these subs off their leash but I have to get the loop fixed first. Any thoughts?
If you have a coax line anywhere in the system (coming from a wall esp) you run the risk of introducing noise into the system. Dirty boxes don’t help either. We have a Suddenlink box that gives me fits from time to time.

DJ
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post #11709 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Hopinator, I believe a lot of owners have used some sort of isolation transformers also, besides cheater plugs. BTW @chucky7 probably knows about all the treatments reported so far for JTR hum?

As for the cheater plugs, I know there have been several discussions about whether to use them, but personally I have used cheater plugs for 20 plus years and have gone through numerous power on/off surges from power companies without ever having a problem. Per my anecdotal experience from reading mags, going to audio clubs, and following forums, they are VERY common in high end/high power audio components, and for many years now (it's not a new solution and you're not the guinea pig). It's an extremely simple solution and if it works, there is no need whatsoever to use more complicated methods IMHO.

Re. plugging both into same circuit, there is no problem with that, especially if circuit breaker does not go off. These amps are very efficient and don't draw currents nearly as much as my Krell and Classe amps, etc., and I plugged some of my amps into same line without any degradation or problem. Try it. Are your lines 20 amp?
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 02-13-2019 at 05:09 PM.
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post #11710 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
The 2400ULFs have arrived in pristine condition. They're warming up right now after spending time in transit in winter so I'm not going to play around until tomorrow. That's the good news.
Congratulations again!!!

Pics or it did not happen... You know the drill...

Quote:
Now the bad news, I did plug them in and found that I too have a ground loop issue... the hum is coming from every speaker I have. I never had it with the V3601's but it exists with the 2400ULFs. I don't have cable but I do have satellite TV... can that cause the same issue as cable?

Anyway, the good news is I isolated the circuit that the ground loop exists on and have an outlet fairly near to one of the subs that I can use that doesn't have the loop. With this one I can just run a surge protector with a longer cord and it will be fine. But the other sub is is not near the outlet so it poses an issue. So I have a couple of questions:

1. What's the issue with using a cheater plug? I assume it could void a warranty by the way some guys comment on them. Has anyone had a cheater plug cause any issues where their warranty was voided? Because obviously the plug is an easy solution.

2. For the guys running dual 2400ULF's or 2400's do you run both subs off the same circuit with any problems? I may try and run power from the non offending outlet to both subs if this seems plausible.

3. Since I know the offending circuit what can be dome to cure the circuit of the loop? What can an electrician do to fix the issue?

Tomorrow I'm going to let these subs off their leash but I have to get the loop fixed first. Any thoughts?
If the source of the hum is the cable or the satellite, try the following:

If you are already using a mid-grade surge protector with the coaxial connectors and have spare coaxial cables finished in RF connectors, try using them and see if this works. This should work for the sub that's plugged into the same circuit as the satellite box.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57592616

If you don't already have a surge protector with the coaxial connectors, you can get one for $18.99 from Amazon or the isolators(< $20 ) that have been suggested.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancable-Isola...ctronics%2C204

https://www.amazon.com/Isolation-Tra...s%2C204&sr=1-8

It is possible that you just need an isolator for the satellite coaxial cable that is hooked up to your HT.

For the 2400ULF that does not share the same circuit with the satellite, the hum could be due to being in the same circuit with a dimmer.

You would need a Subwoofer Isolation Transformer:

https://www.amazon.com/Transformer-E...ronics&sr=1-13

A cheater plug is the cheapest remedy for almost all causes of ground loop hum. And no, using a cheater plug DOES NOT void your JTR warranty.

Hope this helps!

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Last edited by chucky7; 02-13-2019 at 11:22 PM.
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post #11711 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:26 PM
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It does help Chucky. Thank you. I have one cheater plug and it eliminated the hum immediately so I just need to buy a 2nd. So whats the problem with cheater plugs? I see some guys be casual about them and other guys freak out over them. I've used them for other things and never had an issue.
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post #11712 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by djreef View Post
If you have a coax line anywhere in the system (coming from a wall esp) you run the risk of introducing noise into the system. Dirty boxes don’t help either. We have a Suddenlink box that gives me fits from time to time.

DJ
Thanks DJ. I disconnected my coaxial to see if that was the issue but it didn't affect it. One thing that did lower the hum was disconnecting my Oppo 203. It didn't get rid of it completely but it did reduce the hum... interesting. I'm not getting rid of my Oppo though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Hello Hopinator, I believe a lot of owners have used some sort of isolation transformers also, besides cheater plugs. BTW @chucky7 probably knows about all the treatments reported so far for JTR hum?

As for the cheater plugs, I know there have been several discussions about whether to use them, but personally I have used cheater plugs for 20 plus years and have gone through numerous power on/off surges from power companies without ever having a problem. Per my anecdotal experience from reading mags, going to audio clubs, and following forums, they are VERY common in high end/high power audio components, and for many years now (it's not a new solution and you're not the guinea pig). It's an extremely simple solution and if it works, there is no need whatsoever to use more complicated methods IMHO.

Re. plugging both into same circuit, there is no problem with that, especially if circuit breaker does not go off. These amps are very efficient and don't draw currents nearly as much as my Krell and Classe amps, etc., and I plugged some of my amps into same line without any degradation or problem. Try it. Are your lines 20 amp?
Very helpful. My cheater plug took the hum right out of the equation so (for the short term at least) I'll be getting a 2nd one tomorrow. I might also look at the Blue Jean Isolation Transformer but really whats the point if the cheater plug is safe and works?

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post #11713 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Congratulations again!!!

Pics or it did not happen... You know the drill...
LOL... Pics are coming.
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post #11714 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
It does help Chucky. Thank you. I have one cheater plug and it eliminated the hum immediately so I just need to buy a 2nd. So whats the problem with cheater plugs? I see some guys be casual about them and other guys freak out over them. I've used them for other things and never had an issue.
Theres a possible increase in risk of electric shock, if you happen to view your movies while standing in a puddle of water and touching the plate amp at the same time as it encounters a fault that would energize the outside of it. My understanding is the three pin powered Speakerpower amps have some type of ground fault protection circuit built in that would cover such an event.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
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post #11715 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:43 PM
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LOL... Pics are coming.
Side by side with the v3601 would be helpful.
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post #11716 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Theres a possible increase in risk of electric shock, if you happen to view your movies while standing in a puddle of water and touching the plate amp at the same time as it encounters a fault that would energize the outside of it. My understanding is the three pin powered Speakerpower amps have some type of ground fault protection circuit built in that would cover such an event.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Dang it! That's my favorite way to watch movies. There's nothing better than watching a good bass flick while standing ankle deep in water and touching the plate amp. It brings the movie to life!

Thanks for the info Pradeep, it's good to know that there's not much concern regarding these plugs.
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post #11717 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Theres a possible increase in risk of electric shock, if you happen to view your movies while standing in a puddle of water and touching the plate amp at the same time as it encounters a fault that would energize the outside of it. My understanding is the three pin powered Speakerpower amps have some type of ground fault protection circuit built in that would cover such an event.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Yeah unless you plan on hugging your sub and crying profusely in joy, using the port to dry off wet clothes or using it as a boat you should be ok. That being said just be mindful of water when working around the sub.
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post #11718 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:52 PM
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Side by side with the v3601 would be helpful.
You mean like this?

Both subs look great, lot's of fire power in this pic.
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post #11719 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 05:55 PM
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^^ Nice. Now fire them all up at the same time
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post #11720 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 06:02 PM
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^^ Nice. Now fire them all up at the same time
Oh Yeah!!!! Now that would be fun.

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post #11721 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
The 2400ULFs have arrived in pristine condition. They're warming up right now after spending time in transit in winter so I'm not going to play around until tomorrow. That's the good news.


1. What's the issue with using a cheater plug? I assume it could void a warranty by the way some guys comment on them. Has anyone had a cheater plug cause any issues where their warranty was voided? Because obviously the plug is an easy solution.


Tomorrow I'm going to let these subs off their leash but I have to get the loop fixed first. Any thoughts?
I'm not an electrician, but here is a pretty good link, imo:
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...ngerous.75419/

Read message #12 .

Sounds like most of the time, probably many many many many times, nothing bad will happen. On the other hand, the worst that could possibly happen is that something really bad can happen. My house is old. 1928. Plenty of knob and tube wiring. My Inuke6k dims the floor lamp that is on the same circuit when really cranking. I don't even want to thin about how unsafe some of this old wiring might be. Scary story. Put a 12,000 BTU A/c in a window on first floor. 6-8,000 Btu in four rooms upstairs. A breaker tripped, shutting off the big downstairs A/C. Two of the A/C upstairs in different rooms also shut off. They were all on the same 15 amp circuit. Needless, to say, I resolved this problem fast. Had dedicated 20 amp circuits ran to every A/C unit in the house. So only lights and such are on the old wiring.

Considering the amps are on the back of the subs and unlikely to be inadvertently touched and somehow resulting in electrocution......Wait..don't you have little kid/kids......I know what I'd do.
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post #11722 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 06:13 PM
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I'm not an electrician, but here is a pretty good link, imo:
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...ngerous.75419/

Read message #12 .

Sounds like most of the time, probably many many many many times, nothing bad will happen. On the other hand, the worst that could possibly happen is that something really bad can happen. My house is old. 1928. Plenty of knob and tube wiring. My Inuke6k dims the floor lamp that is on the same circuit when really cranking. I don't even want to thin about how unsafe some of this old wiring might be. Scary story. Put a 12,000 BTU A/c in a window on first floor. 6-8,000 Btu in four rooms upstairs. A breaker tripped, shutting off the big downstairs A/C. Two of the A/C upstairs in different rooms also shut off. They were all on the same 15 amp circuit. Needless, to say, I resolved this problem fast. Had dedicated 20 amp circuits ran to every A/C unit in the house. So only lights and such are on the old wiring.

Considering the amps are on the back of the subs and unlikely to be inadvertently touched and somehow resulting in electrocution......Wait..don't you have little kid/kids......I know what I'd do.
Kids are 19, 17 and 12 and they don't go near the subs so that won't be an issue. House was built in 2003 and has 400 amp service (two 200 amp mains). No water anywhere near the subs. So that's reassuring but good info Bear because those are good things to keep in mind.

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post #11723 of 12603 Old 02-13-2019, 07:10 PM
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You mean like this?



Both subs look great, lot's of fire power in this pic.


Remember my list on the other thread? Pics and build quality were the first items.

Will be looking forward to reading your impressions. Try and get as many items as you can get from the list. Congrats!


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post #11724 of 12603 Old 02-14-2019, 05:51 AM
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Sounds like most of the time, probably many many many many times, nothing bad will happen.
technically, the ground plug offers alternate (quicker in some wiring cases) path to ground IF your neutral connection is interrupted. however, keep in mind that your neutral and ground are bonded at the load center anyway, so 99.9% of the time removing the ground plug will result in nothing bad (but will remove potential ground loops as we all know too well).

but... purely anecdotal observation- i have noticed (and i can repeat it at will) that in dry conditions running a cheater plug will drastically increase static discharges into the equipment. in other words- you will get zapped very often. is this bad? i have an electrical engineer background and yet i have no idea. it shouldnt matter unless ground and neutral are treated differently in the equipment (they shouldnt)... but... so many variables.
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post #11725 of 12603 Old 02-14-2019, 08:43 AM
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Okay Ground loop taken care of... Thanks Guys.

I haven't dialed in the 2400ULFs yet but I'll be doing that and listening to them in the next few hours. However I did play some bass demos just because I needed to. One word.... WOW!!!!
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post #11726 of 12603 Old 02-14-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
You mean like this?

Both subs look great, lot's of fire power in this pic.
I'm struck by the size of those V3601s. As someone who owns 2400 ULFs the picture provides perspective on how massive the 3601 is. Huge.
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post #11727 of 12603 Old 02-14-2019, 10:32 AM
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I'm struck by the size of those V3601s. As someone who owns 2400 ULFs the picture provides perspective on how massive the 3601 is. Huge.


Yeah. It was certainly revealing. Makes me think about the s7201.


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post #11728 of 12603 Old 02-14-2019, 10:53 AM
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3. Since I know the offending circuit what can be dome to cure the circuit of the loop? What can an electrician do to fix the issue?

Tomorrow I'm going to let these subs off their leash but I have to get the loop fixed first. Any thoughts?

Ok so you feel comfortable enough to use the cheater plug and I won't deter from doing that at least initially...but I would still stress you find a more permanent solution to the problem and avoid using the cheater plug long term. Main reason for me is, if the equipment in use shorts, and somehow catches fire to my home, insurance will be hard pressed to pay for the damages. There's a reason it's called a "Cheater" plug. You are skirting an issue by taking the easy way out, as opposed to addressing the problem directly.

Now let's take a look at why ground loops happen. More often than not it is due to one of two things:

Problem 1) other devices on the same circuit with variable draw current such as minifridges, dimmers, microwaves, ovens, etc.
Solution 1) Pull a dedicated line, or see if an electrician can re-configure your panel to allow for perhaps just the plugs in your HT room be only on their own dedicated run, and put other "stuff" on a different breaker.

Problem 2) and extremely common, is ground loop resultant from an improperly done internet/cable/satellite install where the exterior box grounds to a completely different place than your panel is.
Solution 2) Isolators will work most of the time on your coax, but the real solution is to make sure that any and all of your services that come into the house ground to your main panel. If you want I can snap a pic of what I did to ground my cable/satellite box to my main panel which solved 90% of my issue. There was still a very light hum on the line coming in through the satellite feed, which was probably residual coming into the coax from another TV box in the house that was on a line with something like in Problem 1 (Path of least resistance). One of the satellite coax isolators took care of the last 10% in my particular case.

As far as the "Shock factor" and so many of you thinking it's not a big deal, you obviously haven't had a "Ride the lightning" scenario before. Yea the breakers will kick to prevent anything major 'hopefully ' but if you want to see what it's like, the old fork in the outlet trick will simulate it just fine...

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post #11729 of 12603 Old 02-14-2019, 01:21 PM
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Good to know Beastaudio. I'll probably call in my electrician to help me out at some point. I would love a picture to see how that grounding works. Also, that coax isolator for satellite, is that the same one used for cable?


But now I have a bigger problem. One of the sub's amps is cycling on and off non stop even in the ON mode. It was good for about 30 minutes then it just started losing its mind. I had to shut her down. I called Jeff and left a message, hopefully I hear back from him soon. I'll keep you all posted.

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post #11730 of 12603 Old 02-14-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Good to know Beastaudio. I'll probably call in my electrician to help me out at some point. I would love a picture to see how that grounding works. Also, that coax isolator for satellite, is that the same one used for cable?


But now I have a bigger problem. One of the sub's amps is cycling on and off non stop even in the ON mode. It was good for about 30 minutes then it just started losing its mind. I had to shut her down. I called Jeff and left a message, hopefully I hear back from him soon. I'll keep you all posted.

Sorry to hear that. Are you able to switch out the 'bad' sub with the good one, ie switch out the cables and such to make sure it is the sub itself.
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