Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 392 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11731 of 12720 Old 02-14-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Good to know Beastaudio. I'll probably call in my electrician to help me out at some point. I would love a picture to see how that grounding works. Also, that coax isolator for satellite, is that the same one used for cable?


But now I have a bigger problem. One of the sub's amps is cycling on and off non stop even in the ON mode. It was good for about 30 minutes then it just started losing its mind. I had to shut her down. I called Jeff and left a message, hopefully I hear back from him soon. I'll keep you all posted.
Sounds like a bad amp. It happens. I had an old amp in an old sub do that....it was fine for a few minutes and once it heated up it began pitching over to fault mode. Fortunately the original manufacturer (long gone) used Parts Express as the OEM for the amp and Parts Express still sold a later version of the amp and it dropped right in.

But in this case, JTR should take care of it.
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post #11732 of 12720 Old 02-15-2019, 06:43 PM
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Can you pair 4000ulf with 2400ulf as I am planning to go dual with my existing 2400ulf or would it be better to get just another 2400ulf?
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post #11733 of 12720 Old 02-15-2019, 06:45 PM
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Can you pair 4000ulf with 2400ulf as I am planning to go dual with my existing 2400ulf or would it be better to get just another 2400ulf?


Now that both are tuned to 10hz it should be no problem.


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post #11734 of 12720 Old 02-15-2019, 11:26 PM
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[QUOTE=imureh;57610084]Now that both are tuned to 10hz it should be no problem.

Would the 4000 overwhelm the 2400 though and make it sound unequal or will audssey calibrate it? Thank you.
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post #11735 of 12720 Old 02-16-2019, 04:52 AM
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[quote=mir3acles;57610748]
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Now that both are tuned to 10hz it should be no problem.



Would the 4000 overwhelm the 2400 though and make it sound unequal or will audssey calibrate it? Thank you.


You would want the 2400 closer to you than the 4000


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post #11736 of 12720 Old 02-16-2019, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Problem 1) other devices on the same circuit with variable draw current such as minifridges, dimmers, microwaves, ovens, etc.
Solution 1) Pull a dedicated line, or see if an electrician can re-configure your panel to allow for perhaps just the plugs in your HT room be only on their own dedicated run, and put other "stuff" on a different breaker.

Problem 2) and extremely common, is ground loop resultant from an improperly done internet/cable/satellite install where the exterior box grounds to a completely different place than your panel is.
Solution 2) Isolators will work most of the time on your coax, but the real solution is to make sure that any and all of your services that come into the house ground to your main panel. If you want I can snap a pic of what I did to ground my cable/satellite box to my main panel which solved 90% of my issue. There was still a very light hum on the line coming in through the satellite feed, which was probably residual coming into the coax from another TV box in the house that was on a line with something like in Problem 1 (Path of least resistance). One of the satellite coax isolators took care of the last 10% in my particular case.

Good discussion. Regarding 1, I have two dedicated 20 amp circuits to my hometheater, and (at least with the amps I use, Krell and Classe, etc.), there is a slight hum. So I think a different ground plane between "local" audio, video components are probably much more common? @ Hopinator, my previous house has brand new up to California-code wiring system, and there is hum. ie Even if there is nothing "wrong" with the electrical system, a different ground plane between any two local components will cause the hum gremlin.

Second, I am **NO** expert , just a (real) question for those who know more: Looking at my living room's Denon receiver, CD player, cable box; all use 2 prong plugs. Are these any safer than using a cheater plug on a 3 prong components?

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post #11737 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mir3acles View Post
Can you pair 4000ulf with 2400ulf as I am planning to go dual with my existing 2400ulf or would it be better to get just another 2400ulf?
Very good question. In theory- yes. However...

It depends on your room specifics, sub locations and sound processing you are willing/ capable of making.

I would say that a good calibrated mike and REW should be able to reveal the true complexity (or lack of) of such a task. Add some flexibility on sub locations and a miniDSP as a final hail mary and between all those factors and variables you should be able to find your sweet spot.

In a nutshell- have a few spots where you can move the subs, take your time and measure and tweak using REW. At some point you will know if you need additional dsp.

My 2 cents
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post #11738 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Second, I am **NO** expert , just a (real) question for those who know more: Looking at my living room's Denon receiver, CD player, cable box; all use 2 prong plugs. Are these any safer than using a cheater plug on a 3 prong components?

Any taker on this? We shouldn't worry too much about cheater plug then, since it's no different from myriad other electric components in our house? Besides above, my rice cooker, Cuisinart all metal small oven, electric lamps, etc.?

Am I missing something (real question)?
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post #11739 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Any taker on this? We shouldn't worry too much about cheater plug then, since it's no different from myriad other electric components in our house? Besides above, my rice cooker, Cuisinart all metal small oven, electric lamps, etc.?

Am I missing something (real question)?
Hi Can,

It can get dicey. Here is some further reading to help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheater_plug

If you have no other choice and Must put in a Cheater Plug to eliminate the Hum. Replace the wall electrical socket with one of theses. Might just save a life!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

https://www.thespruce.com/why-not-to...apters-1152432

Always try to preserve the "Polarized" connection path from the Appliance/Unit through the chain to the Wall Socket.

https://www.thespruce.com/polarized-...nation-1908748

Be safe around this. It only takes a fraction of a second and 0.2 Amps to kill a human. A standard 15 Amp Circuit packs more than enough juice to end a life.

https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physi...l_current.html

Hope this helps.
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post #11740 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Can,

It can get dicey. Here is some further reading to help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheater_plug

If you have no other choice and Must put in a Cheater Plug to eliminate the Hum. Replace the wall electrical socket with one of theses. Might just save a life!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

https://www.thespruce.com/why-not-to...apters-1152432

Always try to preserve the "Polarized" connection path from the Appliance/Unit through the chain to the Wall Socket.

https://www.thespruce.com/polarized-...nation-1908748

Be safe around this. It only takes a fraction of a second and 0.2 Amps to kill a human. A standard 15 Amp Circuit packs more than enough juice to end a life.

https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physi...l_current.html

Hope this helps.
Very good information, thanks for doing the research and putting this up here.
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post #11741 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Any taker on this? We shouldn't worry too much about cheater plug then, since it's no different from myriad other electric components in our house? Besides above, my rice cooker, Cuisinart all metal small oven, electric lamps, etc.?

Am I missing something (real question)?
Things like that require a double insulated plug. Amps have capacitors, which store energy. As Adam pointed out it does take much amperage to stop your heart. So why your amp is pounding away, and a wire becomes dislodged, a ground prong could be all that stands between you and a gurney.

As Al Pacino said "you can get killed walking your doggie"
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post #11742 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Good and interesting discussion guys. Thank you.

@Gorilla Killa : Any good article on double insulated plug? How does it work to prevent shock without ground? I googled and found double-insulation appliances, but not much on plug.

Not to belabor the point, just carrying the discussion towards the conclusion: what about my 100 watts Denon amp? Capacitor + normal plug, no?

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post #11743 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 05:31 PM
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Good discussion guys. Since I got this hum with the new subs I've been picking the brains of everyone I can about cheater plugs. Most I have talked to have said the same thing... They've been using them for years on end (20 to 30) and never had an issue. BUT and this is a big but, there is always the risk of what Gorilla Killer mentioned above. However, no one I've talked to has said they have ever heard of or read about someone getting electrocuted due to a cheater plug (but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened). My question is: if you need to adjust something on the sub amp why not unplug the unit first to kill the current?

Anyway, its obvious that using a cheater plug can be dangerous but the odds seem low. However, you will be rolling the dice so everyone must make that decision well informed. On another note the discussion of fire breaking out came up. Now that's the one that scares me more than the risk of shock. I used to work for an a major insurance company as a fire underwriter, believe me they will find any excuse to not cover a claim. But fire seems even less likely than getting shocked. But it too is a possibility so keep that in mind. My solution to that is to unplug anything that is using cheater plug when I'm not in close proximity and not using. I can put out a small fire I'm near and aware of... its the one that breaks out in the middle of the night or if I'm away from home that scares me.

The worst part of all this is the makers of the amps could solve this problem if they took the time to track down the source of the hum in their amp. How do I know this? Well, my V3601's had a three prong plug on them and never once did it create a hum. It's not a matter of how much power the amp puts out its how well its insulated and wired and designed etc. Don't get me wrong, the amp could be top notch but if they are not concerned about tracking down potential ground loop hums then they will not address the problem. After all, it's not really a big deal to the amp manufacturer because it affects some and not others due to all the variables involved. But they could negate the issue if they wanted to... just food for thought.

On another note, I've isolated my ground loop hum to two issues... the blu-ray player and the satellite TV. They are both 50/50, disconnect either one and you it cuts the hum in half. Disconnect both and the problem goes away. Now I need to decide on how to deal with them.

But what I really need even more than that is for Jeff to call me back and fix my dead amp issue. I really want to have two working 2400ULF's. I hope he get's back from vacation soon. Does anyone know his plans by any chance?

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post #11744 of 12720 Old 02-17-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Good discussion guys. Since I got this hum with the new subs I've been picking the brains of everyone I can about cheater plugs. Most I have talked to have said the same thing... They've been using them for years on end (20 to 30) and never had an issue. BUT and this is a big but, there is always the risk of what Gorilla Killer mentioned above. However, no one I've talked to has said they have ever heard of or read about someone getting electrocuted due to a cheater plug (but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened). My question is: if you need to adjust something on the sub amp why not unplug the unit first to kill the current?

Anyway, its obvious that using a cheater plug can be dangerous but the odds seem low. However, you will be rolling the dice so everyone must make that decision well informed. On another note the discussion of fire breaking out came up. Now that's the one that scares me more than the risk of shock. I used to work for an a major insurance company as a fire underwriter, believe me they will find any excuse to not cover a claim. But fire seems even less likely than getting shocked. But it too is a possibility so keep that in mind. My solution to that is to unplug anything that is using cheater plug when I'm not in close proximity and not using. I can put out a small fire I'm near and aware of... its the one that breaks out in the middle of the night or if I'm away from home that scares me.

The worst part of all this is the makers of the amps could solve this problem if they took the time to track down the source of the hum in their amp. How do I know this? Well, my V3601's had a three prong plug on them and never once did it create a hum. It's not a matter of how much power the amp puts out its how well its insulated and wired and designed etc. Don't get me wrong, the amp could be top notch but if they are not concerned about tracking down potential ground loop hums then they will not address the problem. After all, it's not really a big deal to the amp manufacturer because it affects some and not others due to all the variables involved. But they could negate the issue if they wanted to... just food for thought.

On another note, I've isolated my ground loop hum to two issues... the blu-ray player and the satellite TV. They are both 50/50, disconnect either one and you it cuts the hum in half. Disconnect both and the problem goes away. Now I need to decide on how to deal with them.

But what I really need even more than that is for Jeff to call me back and fix my dead amp issue. I really want to have two working 2400ULF's. I hope he get's back from vacation soon. Does anyone know his plans by any chance?
See my previous post in this thread about grounding the incoming sat/cable connection. As far as the blu-ray, that one I don't understand, always easy to pick-up a new blu-ray player much harder to find a new cable/sat provider.
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post #11745 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 09:55 AM
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However, no one I've talked to has said they have ever heard of or read about someone getting electrocuted due to a cheater plug (but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened).
Yea cuz that person dead.... haha.
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post #11746 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 11:41 AM
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yea cuz that person dead.... Haha.
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post #11747 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 12:30 PM
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Yea cuz that person dead.... haha.
Being murdered by one's subwoofer sounds, I don't know, kinda cool. If it happens to me I hope the police don't blame my sub and take it into custody.
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post #11748 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

The worst part of all this is the makers of the amps could solve this problem if they took the time to track down the source of the hum in their amp. How do I know this? Well, my V3601's had a three prong plug on them and never once did it create a hum. It's not a matter of how much power the amp puts out its how well its insulated and wired and designed etc. Don't get me wrong, the amp could be top notch but if they are not concerned about tracking down potential ground loop hums then they will not address the problem. After all, it's not really a big deal to the amp manufacturer because it affects some and not others due to all the variables involved. But they could negate the issue if they wanted to... just food for thought.
Hop aren't the amps used in the V3601 and the 2400ulf both made by SpeakerPower?
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post #11749 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 01:12 PM
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Hop aren't the amps used in the V3601 and the 2400ulf both made by SpeakerPower?
I think they are but the ICE amps and Speaker Power amps apparently are made differently. After talking to Tom he said there is a difference between them. I don't understand much about it but I do know that that ground loop issues don't have to occur if an amp manufacturer goes through the trouble to eliminate it for most situation (obviously with so many variables involved there will always be exceptions no matter how hard they try). However, in some amps they are far more common than in other amps.
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post #11750 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 01:21 PM
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Hop aren't the amps used in the V3601 and the 2400ulf both made by SpeakerPower?
I am not Hop but I can answer your question.

The 1400W amps on the V3601 use 2 700W ICE power amp modules. The ICE power modules are manufactured by B&O in China. SpeakerPower sourced the modules from B&O. The 300W, 700W, and 1400W ICE power amps have the Energy Star rating. Currently PSA sources the ICE power modules directly from B&O and produces the amp plates in house. However, I believe the 1400W amps in Hop's V3601s were still made by SpeakerPower.

The other amps (1200W, 2400W and 4000W) are Torpedo amps, made in house by SpeakerPower. These actually perform quite differently from the ICE power amps. Ricci has touched on the difference - the ICE power amps burst better (produce better CEA-2010 Max Burst results) while the Torpedo amps can produce higher long term output.

From personal experience, I believe the Torpedo amps are more finicky about ground loop hum. I didn't have hum before with the Cap 1400 but I did with the 4000ULF. I am just glad I was able to remedy it easily.

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post #11751 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 01:55 PM
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^^^ That's a MUCH better answer than mine.
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post #11752 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 02:13 PM
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Anyone move a 4000ULF weighing in at 265 lbs. down basement steps? Any tips? I'm anticipating taking delivery of my sub sometime soon and couldn't get to sleep last night worrying about how to get it into the basement.

Also, earlier comments about people dying from live 15 or 20 amp circuits, I don't see this happening easily unless your standing in water or something unusual. I've accidentally touched bare wires or been electrocuted at least 15 times and it's a hell of a wake up call but more scare than anything else.
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post #11753 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaGreg View Post
Anyone move a 4000ULF weighing in at 265 lbs. down basement steps? Any tips? I'm anticipating taking delivery of my sub sometime soon and couldn't get to sleep last night worrying about how to get it into the basement.
You might want to call Enterprise Rent-A-Car and see if they have one of these laying around somewhere.



Or, get 3 or 4 buddies, buy them some beer and pizza and slide it down the stairs. I found it much easier going down than going up.

Todd
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Last edited by toddct; 02-19-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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post #11754 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 03:13 PM
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I found it much easier going down than going up.

Todd
Pizza and beer? Or Subwoofers?
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post #11755 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 03:32 PM
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Hey Guys,

Looking to future proof my subwoofer setup for my HT system. I was just wondering if JTR currently has any group buys or discounts going on. I will be purchasing a pair of Captivator 4000ULFs.

-groovin
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post #11756 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
Hey Guys,

Looking to future proof my subwoofer setup for my HT system. I was just wondering if JTR currently has any group buys or discounts going on. I will be purchasing a pair of Captivator 4000ULFs.

-groovin
JTR doesn't have a sale right now. Please contact Jeff regarding multiple discount.

Regarding group buys, AFAIK, 4 or more subs shipped together to a single address will get free freight. I know avsforum does not encourage groupbuys so posts regarding groupbuys might be deleted. It is really hard to pull off.

For starters, you might want to provide your location.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 02-19-2019 at 10:30 PM.
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post #11757 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 04:13 PM
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Sorry about that. I sent JTR an email and left a message over the phone. I'm located in California.

-groovin
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post #11758 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinnesotaGreg View Post
Anyone move a 4000ULF weighing in at 265 lbs. down basement steps? Any tips? I'm anticipating taking delivery of my sub sometime soon and couldn't get to sleep last night worrying about how to get it into the basement.
I've moved a 4000ULF down stairs at least six times. I've used my Costco 3-in-1 dolly. It works well. I've also used it for Orbit Shifter ULF's. An appliance dolly will also work. If you don't have access to one, some Home Depots rent them for $14 for 4 hours. With either dolly, you need two people to safely get it down stairs.
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post #11759 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 04:43 PM
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Sorry about that. I sent JTR an email and left a message over the phone. I'm located in California.

-groovin
It's quite alright...

Please indicate which region you are at... Crescent City, CA (just south of Oregon) is 920 miles from San Ysidro, CA(just north of US/Mexico border)... LOL...

A groupbuy is much more likely to happen in Los Angeles than say, Weed or Black Butte... LOL...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 02-19-2019 at 05:07 PM.
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post #11760 of 12720 Old 02-19-2019, 04:51 PM
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Very true, lol.

Los Angeles County.

-groovin
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