Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 398 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11911 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Completely agree, this has me thinking about Crowsons again...

I have heard that it can help dial down the ULF and still get the same feeling...just very expensive. I guess I have some evidence to convince the wife I need to spend more money on HT...you know for the sake of our hearing....

I just wonder how folks with 20 18 inch subs are still able to hear...multiple examples of those around. Compared to normal people, most of us here have extreme systems and then you have the Hyper extreme ones that I mention above...
I've been telling you that for a WHILE! Get them already! LOL

The crowsons will add so much depth that subs just can't do. And you don't have nearfield subs so crowsons make most sense. While it may be expensive....its same price as adding another rythmik sub nearfield but with MUCH more ULF at reference levels. You would need 2 or 3 rythmiks just to get what crowsons can do 30hz and below....and these go down to 5hz at reference. And best part....doesn't damage your hearing since that is what we are talking about here. lol

Also I see you're into the BEQs now.....this is where crowsons shine the best and it will feel like you added 8 subs in your room. Just get them and thank me later!
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post #11912 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 09:36 AM
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I would not worry about the ULF in movies. Have you guys ever measured normal daily ULF? Just shutting my theater door has louder ULF than any movie scene in my room. We are not reproducing normal life ULF which is much more abundant, louder, and more dynamic. Those surveys of the people having bad health, what was their normal life? Food, Could be polluted soil, air, water, you name it. I doubt it was ULF. What neighborhood did they live in? So many variants to effect health. How many people lost their hearing going to concerts? They don’t have ULF, they could blame bad health on concerts as well I guess, but probably most likely all the alcohol involved or whatever people are using.
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post #11913 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Anthem's ARC does not test for distances, they have to manually input by measuring the old fashioned way.
Well that is a little..............ARChaic!

Great information, thanks beast! Quick question, could you run audy like normal (with no miniDSP filters applied, natural room FR), measure with REW, apply miniDSP filters, measure with REW, rinse and repeat until you are looking for the FR you want? Does that make sense? If so, what's the downside?

Todd
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post #11914 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I've been telling you that for a WHILE! Get them already! LOL

The crowsons will add so much depth that subs just can't do. And you don't have nearfield subs so crowsons make most sense. While it may be expensive....its same price as adding another rythmik sub nearfield but with MUCH more ULF at reference levels. You would need 2 or 3 rythmiks just to get what crowsons can do 30hz and below....and these go down to 5hz at reference. And best part....doesn't damage your hearing since that is what we are talking about here. lol

Also I see you're into the BEQs now.....this is where crowsons shine the best and it will feel like you added 8 subs in your room. Just get them and thank me later!
You had to just push him over the edge didn't you!

Todd
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post #11915 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Adam shared some great info and partly why I don't listen as loud as I use to but let's keep some things in perspective.

Playing a movie at reference level isn't really a big issue as the dynamic volume of the audio track varies greatly. You are only talking short bursts of 115-120db peaks in the bass. Now if you are listening to sustained LF sine waves at high levels for extended periods of time, I could see some potential issues. I believe Nazi Germany developed a low frequency sound cannon that could project a 44hz tone around 180db and suppress a enemy 50 yards away. There is a big difference between levels of 115db in bass and 150db+. All frequencies can damage hearing, it just takes more spl for lower frequencies to do it.
Is it something like this:


BTW, the above is the Hulk in Sonic Cannon scene. I just photoshopped a girl's head over Hulk's. I had posted with a screen capture of the clip before but the image file was gone.

It's too bad the said weapon is not in the movie Overlord...
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post #11916 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Completely agree, this has me thinking about Crowsons again...

I have heard that it can help dial down the ULF and still get the same feeling...just very expensive. I guess I have some evidence to convince the wife I need to spend more money on HT...you know for the sake of our hearing....

I just wonder how folks with 20 18 inch subs are still able to hear...multiple examples of those around. Compared to normal people, most of us here have extreme systems and then you have the Hyper extreme ones that I mention above...
Or, try a BOSS....link in my build signature below. The cost is less than 25% of 1 Crowson and the tactile sensation is incredible for everyone on the BOSS platform, not just the one person under the 1 Crowson.

It's much better than Buttkickers but I haven't had a chance to compare to Crowson's yet. Trying to get Nalleh to do a direct comparison since he has all the building blocks for a head-to-head comparison at his disposal.

The BOSS is super easy to construct....if you can cut holes in plywood, then you're good to go. It uses the JBL 12" subwoofers that go on sale periodically for $29 each. Only need 80 watts per speaker and it connects directly to your LFE for super easy integration into your existing system.

Best of all, the BOSS is an open baffle design, so the sound waves cancel each other, pretty much negligible SPL but tons of tactile down to 3 Hz. The feeling of weightlessness is awesome as you sit on a bed of air that is responding naturally to appropriate bass notes in music with fidelity (I listen to lots of music with the BOSS and it's unreal how articulate it is with music). As you can imagine, it's awesome for earth-moving events on the screen also.

Just offering another "more affordable" option in our crazy hobby if DIY doesn't scare you too much.
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post #11917 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
You had to just push him over the edge didn't you!

Todd

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
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post #11918 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Well that is a little..............ARChaic!

Great information, thanks beast! Quick question, could you run audy like normal (with no miniDSP filters applied, natural room FR), measure with REW, apply miniDSP filters, measure with REW, rinse and repeat until you are looking for the FR you want? Does that make sense? If so, what's the downside?

Todd
Absolutely and that particular way I would recommend first as a matter of fact, provided your natural room FR is decent enough that audyssey won't have to correct major issues. If you are +/- 7 or 8dB in the bass region with no correction, perhaps even +/- 10dB, I would likely just let audyssey do its thing first, then come in and apply your own (modest) filters, house curves, LT's, etc. It's easy to see what filters are generally being applied by audyssey if you measure before and after graphs with REW which is easy enough. If you see audyssey boosting some area what appears to be 7-8dB, i'd be careful overlaying much more boost inside your mini than that... maybe even start in the minidsp with cuts only, see how it sounds, then apply VERY modest boosts to any remaining problem areas.

As a rule, I actually don't recommend boosts in general as they all as a product of their design will eat into your headroom. But, and that's a BIG but, some sub systems around here have so much headroom, you've got plenty enough leeway to get away with it. Take my skhorn for example, who's native response is a rolloff from upper bass all the way down. It has such insane amounts of headroom up top that I simply apply a low shelf to bring up the lower bass to flat with the upper bass, so it is a flat response without taking into account any room gain. It is always good practice to start tuning a system with a sub that measures as flat as possible anechoically, just as almost all commercial and ID subs are already tuned. DIY builds for sealed subs need an LT to extend way down to single digits, where ported subs tend to be flatter to their tune as a product of their design. The skhorn is a different animal alltogether so it needs some different initial love just to get started.... Anyways. Just thought I'd share some additional thoughts.
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post #11919 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 11:31 AM
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Awesome, thanks dude! I have natural room response with large peaks at 18 and 33 which I may just "tame" a little and a few dips in the mid to upper bass. I did get my FR pretty flat recently but I'm not so sure I like that. We'll see. I've got 2x2400s in a 7k^3 room but I think I have enough headroom to play around.

Thanks again for the great info.

Todd
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post #11920 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 01:34 PM
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My 2400 ULF's are in route!
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post #11921 of 14001 Old 02-26-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gutcheck2001 View Post
My 2400 ULF's are in route!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #11922 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Or, try a BOSS....link in my build signature below. The cost is less than 25% of 1 Crowson and the tactile sensation is incredible for everyone on the BOSS platform, not just the one person under the 1 Crowson.

It's much better than Buttkickers but I haven't had a chance to compare to Crowson's yet. Trying to get Nalleh to do a direct comparison since he has all the building blocks for a head-to-head comparison at his disposal.

The BOSS is super easy to construct....if you can cut holes in plywood, then you're good to go. It uses the JBL 12" subwoofers that go on sale periodically for $29 each. Only need 80 watts per speaker and it connects directly to your LFE for super easy integration into your existing system.

Best of all, the BOSS is an open baffle design, so the sound waves cancel each other, pretty much negligible SPL but tons of tactile down to 3 Hz. The feeling of weightlessness is awesome as you sit on a bed of air that is responding naturally to appropriate bass notes in music with fidelity (I listen to lots of music with the BOSS and it's unreal how articulate it is with music). As you can imagine, it's awesome for earth-moving events on the screen also.

Just offering another "more affordable" option in our crazy hobby if DIY doesn't scare you too much.

Woah, first I'm hearing about this what a great idea! I have to know how this compares to a VNF right behind you and Crowsons!!
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post #11923 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 09:11 AM
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^^ seem like it will work right in your low ceiling room. You will have VNF subs behind and underneath you . It never ends
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post #11924 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 09:14 AM
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^^ seem like it will work right in your low ceiling room. You will have VNF subs behind and underneath you . It never ends
Haha, I know. I have to admit that it gets me excited just to think about making a change/upgrade to the room since I haven't done anything in so long. My back row riser is crazy heavy, I wonder how many drivers it would take back there. At 29 bucks a driver it doesn't really matter though.
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post #11925 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 09:43 AM
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At 29 bucks a driver it doesn't really matter though.
What matter is to figure out how many of those drivers you can fit on the platform .
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post #11926 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 01:05 PM
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^^^I'm only using 3 of the JBL's in my rather large back riser and the effect is incredible. Those 3 subs feel like it's floating the entire platform on a bed of air. The key is to lift the platform off the concrete floor with rubber isolators.

Below is a picture of our back riser....as you can see, it's heavy....constructed of 2x12"s and 3/4" plywood. On top of that riser sits 3 sectional couch pieces and we've had 4 people back there at the same time. The BOSS has no problems moving the platform and everyone on it.

Our front mini-riser BOSS, moves the front row just as much with the same number of JBL's (3 of them in the front row also). That mini-riser has a very heavy sleeper sofa and recliner on it plus 4 people also and the BOSS doesn't even break a sweat.

Below is a picture of the BOSS in a traditional riser, and the theater build thread in my signature has details of the mini-riser BOSS along with other construction details and guidelines if interested.

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post #11927 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 01:17 PM
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What I dont get is your front row "BOSS"

Looks like those drivers are just firing straight into the floor and the piece of wood the seats are on is resting on the surrounds of the subs, WITH all the weight of the chairs and stuff on them as well.

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post #11928 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 01:43 PM
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Seaton 18+ Cap1400

so i didnt have time to measure until now i 'integrated' by ear to get the full JTR POWAAaa & WIND
so i measured it today
not sure whats going on 65-140 hz
let me know if something looks off/what can be improved

green = F18 stacked master&slave front-right
orage = cap1400 front-left and angled to MLP
red = both together
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display - vizio p65
AVR x4300h +lepai 2ch amp = 7.2.4
L/C/R - Chane 2.4, SURROUND - dayton 3in cubes *temporary
BASS - 2x Seaton F18 + JTR 1400 "the wind machine" (not port noise)
2100 ft^3

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post #11929 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
so i didnt have time to measure until now i 'integrated' by ear to get the full JTR POWAAaa & WIND
so i measured it today
not sure whats going on 65-140 hz
let me know if something looks off/what can be improved

green = F18 stacked master&slave front-right
orage = cap1400 front-left and angled to MLP
red = both together
Please push the Freq. Axis button and re-post.


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post #11930 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 02:54 PM
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Please push the Freq. Axis button and re-post.
ok picture also updated
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display - vizio p65
AVR x4300h +lepai 2ch amp = 7.2.4
L/C/R - Chane 2.4, SURROUND - dayton 3in cubes *temporary
BASS - 2x Seaton F18 + JTR 1400 "the wind machine" (not port noise)
2100 ft^3
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post #11931 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 03:34 PM
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ok picture also updated
Is this subs only or is a speaker included in these measurements? Where is your crossover set?

Can we see all the way out to 300hz?
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post #11932 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
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What I dont get is your front row "BOSS"

Looks like those drivers are just firing straight into the floor and the piece of wood the seats are on is resting on the surrounds of the subs, WITH all the weight of the chairs and stuff on them as well.
beastaudio....Thanks...good question....the build details are in my theater thread in the link below....everything you want to know is in post 29 of that thread....specifically number 3 of that thread has the details you're looking for. Basically, there's 1/2" clearance between the foam face of the JBL's and the floor. The clearance really isn't that critical but it does allow some room for them to breathe and cone to move freely which is why it's so sensitive (only 80 watts to hit Xmax since there's very little back pressure).

Hope this helps.
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post #11933 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Is this subs only or is a speaker included in these measurements? Where is your crossover set?

Can we see all the way out to 300hz?
its almost all speakers (7 of 11) + subs on dts neural x
AVR crossover is 110hz
seaton crossover is at its max (120)
jtr crossover 1 click before middle ~85hz

to 300hz attached
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display - vizio p65
AVR x4300h +lepai 2ch amp = 7.2.4
L/C/R - Chane 2.4, SURROUND - dayton 3in cubes *temporary
BASS - 2x Seaton F18 + JTR 1400 "the wind machine" (not port noise)
2100 ft^3
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post #11934 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 04:41 PM
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Transaction with JTR finalized. (2) week leadtime for dual captivator 4ks. Super overkill for my setup but super excited. Won't ever have to worry about low end performance for probably my lifetime.

-groovin
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post #11935 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 04:43 PM
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Transaction with JTR finalized. (2) week leadtime for dual captivator 4ks. Super overkill for my setup but super excited. Won't ever have to worry about low end performance for probably my lifetime.

-groovin
Congrats! Please post pictures when you receive them. Did you go with standard configuration and finish? Details man! lol

Greg
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post #11936 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 04:52 PM
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Congrats! Please post pictures when you receive them. Did you go with standard configuration and finish? Details man! lol

Greg
That is correct! 4k ULF with matte black finish. Most likely I will be stacking them and placing them in the corner to the left of the viewing area. I'm a bit of a picture whore so you can count on me to spam the thread with pictures when they arrive. I'm a bit worried I might break some decor...

-groovin
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post #11937 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 04:58 PM
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You guys are fricking nuts!!!

I think it takes 3 Cap 4000ULF now to get 10 seconds of fame...

@sonicgroove, I know next time when the earthquake hits, it's not San Andrea's Fault... It's yours!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 02-27-2019 at 05:03 PM.
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post #11938 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
its almost all speakers (7 of 11) + subs on dts neural x
AVR crossover is 110hz
seaton crossover is at its max (120)
jtr crossover 1 click before middle ~85hz

to 300hz attached
Why would you want to measure ALL speakers + subs? Why isn't the JTR crossover at max/defeated?


The dip in your response is centered almost exactly at your crossover point. Your speakers may be out-of-phase with your subs, and if so, the Sub Distance Tweak should be able to raise that up without issue.

You may want to visit this thread, post your measurements and ask for more advice:
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
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post #11939 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
I'm a bit worried I might break some decor...
That's just a clear indicator that you have them set up correctly!

Todd
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Last edited by toddct; 02-27-2019 at 06:26 PM.
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post #11940 of 14001 Old 02-27-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
You guys are fricking nuts!!!

I think it takes 3 Cap 4000ULF now to get 10 seconds of fame...

@sonicgroove, I know next time when the earthquake hits, it's not San Andrea's Fault... It's yours!
If you turn on the TV and find the news channel reporting a home collapsed due to loss of structural integrity for unknown reasons and the neighboring resident statements coincides the timing of the collapse with loud booming sounds and the ground shaking then that would be me. My home is old and small so this wouldn't be to far from a possibility.

-groovin
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