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post #12211 of 12597 Old 03-18-2019, 10:02 PM
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Alright so I finally recruited some help and got these subs moved from the pallet to their new home. Setup is rough and placement is still debatable. Priority is testing to ensure everything is operating within specifications. I also manually tuned the subs to roughly gauge performance and potential. I don’t have any equipment to measure sound performance so everything I do is by ear and customized to my preference. The pair of captivator 4000ULPs replaced a Mirage Omni S12 and a Klipsch KSW-12 (I know, it’s like going from a Honda Civic to a Lamborghini Huracan). I proceeded to connect the power cables that arrived with the subs to different power outlets along with my mono cables to the left/LPE input. Flicked the power switch on and set the amp to auto. It clicked and the green indicated light lit up. Unfortunately, a loud hum followed. This was also true for the other sub. I pulled the mono cable out and the hum went away, it was dead silent. This verifies the source is not the subwoofer itself and rather another ground loop problem. I didn’t have this issue with the previous subwoofers but as some said higher performance subwoofers tend to be more sensitive to ground induced noise. I tried different outlets and it wasn’t until I put them all on the same power source that the hum nearly ceased. It’s still present but the difference in audible hum from a gain of 1-2 clicks on the sub amp is now equivalent to the hum produced at a gain of 17-18 clicks which is a significant reduction. Now that the hum is more tolerable I began to test the subs by playing audio files and clips from movies. To my surprise I got zero output from the subs. I tried increasing the volume but no change. I figured the signal output from the receiver was not enough for the subs to detect. My previous channel level setting for the subs was -12db (lowest setting possible). I dialed down the gain on the subs to 4 clicks and changed sub channel level to 6db hoping it would result in a change. The changes worked and I am now getting bass out of the subs. I balanced it out to -3db sub channel level and a gain of 17 clicks (max is 20 clicks). I also set delay on the 4k captivator coffee table to about 3 clicks as that seem to have the greatest impact on bass. I tested a few more songs and videos and at this point I was astonished to hear tones I never heard before. By no means did the system sound good due to lack of tuning but it was apparent that these subs were producing frequencies the previous setup could not. Not only were they producing those frequencies but the spl was intense. It was so ridiculous I constantly experienced that uncomfortable floating stomach sensation; that deep earth-rumbling - floor shaking fear that arises from the calamity of an earthquake, aka the fear of impending doom. I started looking at the amp settings and noticed the LF adjust knob was turned all the way up. I wasn’t entirely sure of its function (still not so sure) but testing revealed that decreasing it decreased low frequency spl (does this act like a high frequency attenuation but instead boosts bass per drop in octave? If so does anyone have specifics on it?). My previous subs did not have this ability so I adjusted the receiver’s EQ settings to increase sub channel level incrementally at lower frequencies, couple that with the LF adjust settings set to max on both 4ks then you can get an idea of why I felt like I was going to die each time a low frequency blasted out of the subs in the test audio/video clips. At this point I have them set to cut and it’s much better. Ultimately I’d like to learn exactly how the sub amp's LF adjust setting works so I can use it to fine tune the system to my preference when all is said and done with MCCAC. The auto-on feature was also tested and appears to be working. At this point I just need to get rid of the hum and somehow increase the signal output to the subwoofers. I ordered a pair of blue jean subwoofer isolation transformers and a pair of female rca to dual male rca Y-adapters in hopes that they will resolve my issues.

That is my cousin sitting on the sub to give you a better perspective of size. He was the one who assisted in the transport of these monsters. BTW, shoulder dolley + movers dolley FTW. To move them without would be incomprehensible.

-groovin
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post #12212 of 12597 Old 03-18-2019, 11:29 PM
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@ sonicgroove,

Congratulations on your dual 4000ULFs!

Please check out the post below. I wrote it when I still had a Pioneer AVR.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post49000105

Without using a UMIK-1, I recommend using a NIOSH Sound Level Meter app that you can get for your cellphone. You should adjust the gains so that at the MLP, sub 1 is as loud as sub 2. This means the gain on the coffeetable sub should be way lower than the one that's further away.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #12213 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
@ sonicgroove,

Congratulations on your dual 4000ULFs!

Please check out the post below. I wrote it when I still had a Pioneer AVR.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post49000105

Without using a UMIK-1, I recommend using a NIOSH Sound Level Meter app that you can get for your cellphone. You should adjust the gains so that at the MLP, sub 1 is as loud as sub 2. This means the gain on the coffeetable sub should be way lower than the one that's further away.
Thanks for the tips. Your post helps bring a bit more clarity to what LF Adjust does but would you happen to know how it scales or any other details?

If the isolators and Y-adapters solve my issues then I'll be performing a full tune. If not I'll have to investigate a bit more and explore more options. I normally prefer having the receiver sub channel level set to the lowest setting (-12db) and have the sub's amp make up the difference. If MCCAC settings don't meet my preferences then I would incrementally increase sub gain to taste. I did what you suggested and used a sound app to equalize spl between the two subs and found the coffee table needed to go down 10 clicks . I'm looking forward to getting them dialed in.

-groovin
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post #12214 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
Alright so I finally recruited some help and got these subs moved from the pallet to their new home. Setup is rough and placement is still debatable. Priority is testing to ensure everything is operating within specifications. I also manually tuned the subs to roughly gauge performance and potential. I don’t have any equipment to measure sound performance so everything I do is by ear and customized to my preference. The pair of captivator 4000ULPs replaced a Mirage Omni S12 and a Klipsch KSW-12 (I know, it’s like going from a Honda Civic to a Lamborghini Huracan). I proceeded to connect the power cables that arrived with the subs to different power outlets along with my mono cables to the left/LPE input. Flicked the power switch on and set the amp to auto. It clicked and the green indicated light lit up. Unfortunately, a loud hum followed. This was also true for the other sub. I pulled the mono cable out and the hum went away, it was dead silent. This verifies the source is not the subwoofer itself and rather another ground loop problem. I didn’t have this issue with the previous subwoofers but as some said higher performance subwoofers tend to be more sensitive to ground induced noise. I tried different outlets and it wasn’t until I put them all on the same power source that the hum nearly ceased. It’s still present but the difference in audible hum from a gain of 1-2 clicks on the sub amp is now equivalent to the hum produced at a gain of 17-18 clicks which is a significant reduction. Now that the hum is more tolerable I began to test the subs by playing audio files and clips from movies. To my surprise I got zero output from the subs. I tried increasing the volume but no change. I figured the signal output from the receiver was not enough for the subs to detect. My previous channel level setting for the subs was -12db (lowest setting possible). I dialed down the gain on the subs to 4 clicks and changed sub channel level to 6db hoping it would result in a change. The changes worked and I am now getting bass out of the subs. I balanced it out to -3db sub channel level and a gain of 17 clicks (max is 20 clicks). I also set delay on the 4k captivator coffee table to about 3 clicks as that seem to have the greatest impact on bass. I tested a few more songs and videos and at this point I was astonished to hear tones I never heard before. By no means did the system sound good due to lack of tuning but it was apparent that these subs were producing frequencies the previous setup could not. Not only were they producing those frequencies but the spl was intense. It was so ridiculous I constantly experienced that uncomfortable floating stomach sensation; that deep earth-rumbling - floor shaking fear that arises from the calamity of an earthquake, aka the fear of impending doom. I started looking at the amp settings and noticed the LF adjust knob was turned all the way up. I wasn’t entirely sure of its function (still not so sure) but testing revealed that decreasing it decreased low frequency spl (does this act like a high frequency attenuation but instead boosts bass per drop in octave? If so does anyone have specifics on it?). My previous subs did not have this ability so I adjusted the receiver’s EQ settings to increase sub channel level incrementally at lower frequencies, couple that with the LF adjust settings set to max on both 4ks then you can get an idea of why I felt like I was going to die each time a low frequency blasted out of the subs in the test audio/video clips. At this point I have them set to cut and it’s much better. Ultimately I’d like to learn exactly how the sub amp's LF adjust setting works so I can use it to fine tune the system to my preference when all is said and done with MCCAC. The auto-on feature was also tested and appears to be working. At this point I just need to get rid of the hum and somehow increase the signal output to the subwoofers. I ordered a pair of blue jean subwoofer isolation transformers and a pair of female rca to dual male rca Y-adapters in hopes that they will resolve my issues.

That is my cousin sitting on the sub to give you a better perspective of size. He was the one who assisted in the transport of these monsters. BTW, shoulder dolley + movers dolley FTW. To move them without would be incomprehensible.

-groovin

Congratulations on the new setup.


The feet that are attached, did put those on or did they come that way?

FAMILY ROOM - Totem Tribe II LCR, JL Audio E-112, Anthem MRX 720, Apple TV, WD HDTV, Panasonic 55" Plasma
BASEMENT THEATRE - Paradigm Studio 100 v5, 690 v5, 10x4 v5, Anthem AVM 60, Outlaw Audio 7700 & 7125, 2x JTR Captivator S2s, X-Box One, Apple TV, HTPC, Ben-Q W1070, 106" screen
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post #12215 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
Thanks for the tips. Your post helps bring a bit more clarity to what LF Adjust does but would you happen to know how it scales or any other details?
I measured the following FR with the MCACC off (since it didn't really do anything <80Hz).



Basically the Low Frequency Adjust is an EQ setting or attenuator that centers around the port tune (10Hz). The range is 18dB at 10Hz. You can adjust it to your taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
If the isolators and Y-adapters solve my issues then I'll be performing a full tune. If not I'll have to investigate a bit more and explore more options. I normally prefer having the receiver sub channel level set to the lowest setting (-12db) and have the sub's amp make up the difference. If MCCAC settings don't meet my preferences then I would incrementally increase sub gain to taste. I did what you suggested and used a sound app to equalize spl between the two subs and found the coffee table needed to go down 10 clicks . I'm looking forward to getting them dialed in.
Assuming the range for the sub level is +/- 12dB, I would aim for something like - 9 ~ -11dB. Then after calibration, either turn up the sub level 3 to 6 dB, or turn up the gain a few clicks to taste. The idea is try to stay in the negative to avoid clipping.

I suggested level matching your 2 subs because you don't want the closer sub to sound louder than the further sub.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 03-20-2019 at 04:46 AM.
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post #12216 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 04rex View Post
Congratulations on the new setup.

The feet that are attached, did put those on or did they come that way?
Those feet are the stock feet for the 4000ULF.

When I ordered my 4000ULF, I know I wanted to lay it on its side so I asked Jeff to add flat-head socket cap screws, and still include the feet just in case I position it upright down the road...

Threaded insert with flat-head socket cap screw installed: This is what I have now.


threaded insert with flat-head socket cap screw unscrewed half way:


threaded insert:


foot installed:


foot installed side view:


If the feet are removed, flat-head socket cap screws shown in the first picture are needed. Without the screws, there would be air leaks along the port at the bottom of the sub.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #12217 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Those feet are the stock feet for the 4000ULF.

When I ordered my 4000ULF, I know I wanted to lay it on its side so I asked Jeff to add flat-head socket cap screws, and still include the feet just in case I position it upright down the road...

Threaded insert with flat-head socket cap screw installed: This is what I have now.


threaded insert with flat-head socket cap screw unscrewed half way:


threaded insert:


foot installed:


foot installed side view:


If the feet are removed, flat-head socket cap screws shown in the first picture are needed. Without the screws, there would be air leaks along the port at the bottom of the sub.
Thanks for that. So my best bet would be to drill some feet into it. Right now my S2s are on their sides. If I install feet to accommodate that, then later decide to stand them up, how would I plug the holes? Or would I even have to?

FAMILY ROOM - Totem Tribe II LCR, JL Audio E-112, Anthem MRX 720, Apple TV, WD HDTV, Panasonic 55" Plasma
BASEMENT THEATRE - Paradigm Studio 100 v5, 690 v5, 10x4 v5, Anthem AVM 60, Outlaw Audio 7700 & 7125, 2x JTR Captivator S2s, X-Box One, Apple TV, HTPC, Ben-Q W1070, 106" screen
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post #12218 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 11:59 AM
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Congratulations on the new setup.


The feet that are attached, did put those on or did they come that way?
Thank you, sir. They came that way. I did not request for them. Some people in the past mentioned theirs did not come with any while others did upon request.

@chucky7 Thanks man! That graph is exactly what I was hoping for. So it seems it starts to take affect at about 45hz but doesn't really become apparent until 25hz with the largest difference being the 18db at 10hz as you mentioned. Much appreciated.

If my previous setup was enough for MCCAC to set sub level to -12db while only being at about 3/4 gain I'd expect these to do the same at maybe half gain. Unfortunately that is not the case. I know part of the reason is placement/sub orientation/room gain but the size and power difference should partially compensate for that. When I think about that and the fact that I need to increase sub level to about -8 to -6 before I can even get the subs to respond it makes wonder about signal communication between the two and the reason behind me purchasing RCA Y-Adapters. I'm restraining from making any conclusions until the isolators and adapters come in and I get the subs to perform as efficiently as possible.

-groovin
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post #12219 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 12:21 PM
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Thanks for that. So my best bet would be to drill some feet into it. Right now my S2s are on their sides. If I install feet to accommodate that, then later decide to stand them up, how would I plug the holes? Or would I even have to?
Your stock S2s don't have feet because some users might lay them down. This is the same reason the Cap 118HT/1400/2400/2400ULF don't have feet.

In your case, I don't recommend drilling into the cabinet because you have sealed S2s.

If you need to move the sub from time to time, I would just put isolation pads (for heavy appliances) under the sub.
If you don't move the subs, apply double sided tapes between the subs and the pads.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 03-19-2019 at 06:45 PM.
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post #12220 of 12597 Old 03-19-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
If you need to move the sub from time to time, I would just put isolation pads (for heavy appliances) under the sub.

My S2 is sitting on an Auralex GreatGRAMMA. While there are religious wars over whether these are snake oil in terms of audio performance, it's a perfect fit for the S2 and certainly makes it easier to move around.
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post #12221 of 12597 Old 03-20-2019, 04:08 AM
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My S2 is sitting on an Auralex GreatGRAMMA. While there are religious wars over whether these are snake oil in terms of audio performance, it's a perfect fit for the S2 and certainly makes it easier to move around.


I don’t think it does much for all your performance it’s just that it might reduce the vibrations around the room


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post #12222 of 12597 Old 03-20-2019, 03:14 PM
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Just a small update.

The RCA Y-Adapters came in and they definitely improved signal strength. Sub channel level went from 0 to -7 all while reproducing the same SPL. I may even consider ordering new mono cables in a shorter length. The ground isolating transformers should be arriving soon. Looking forward to fine tuning these monsters into the system.

-groovin
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post #12223 of 12597 Old 03-20-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
Just a small update.

The RCA Y-Adapters came in and they definitely improved signal strength. Sub channel level went from 0 to -7 all while reproducing the same SPL. I may even consider ordering new mono cables in a shorter length. The ground isolating transformers should be arriving soon. Looking forward to fine tuning these monsters into the system.

-groovin
Ummm, I am not so sure you really need the RCA Y Adapters.

IIRC, when I still had the Pioneer SC-1222k, I calibrated with the 4000ULF's gain at 6 clicks (out of 19) and LF Adjust @ half way. MCACC yielded a sub level of -10. The MLP is 12 ft from the sub though.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #12224 of 12597 Old 03-20-2019, 05:01 PM
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I have yet to perform MCACC. I'm waiting to resolve the hum before doing so. I simply replaced the previous subs with these subs. Using the same calibration (sub channel level -12) the dual 4ks did not translate any sound from the receiver. All channels except for the sub played audio/video. The sub only produced an annoying hum. It wasn't until I increased the sub channel level to +6 (later reducing to 0) that they began to play sounds other than the ground loop hum. With a sub channel level of 0 and a single mono cable the corner 4k put out an average SPL of 86.8db at the MLP (gain 19 clicks or 1 click below max of 20). After connecting the Y-adapter the average SPL increased to just over 89db. I had to decrease sub channel level from 0 to -7 before SPL returned to an average of 86.8db. I did the same with the coffee table 4k but its gain was at 11 clicks. When both 4ks are active SPL average is at 88db. All equipment are pulling power from the same source. I'm pretty sure that is also affecting performance but I can't connect the subs to a different power source because ground loop noise becomes unbearable. As it is right now I'm pretty sure MCACC would probably hit -12db for the sub channel level and I'll have to drop the gain. BTW, corner sub approximately 11ft from MLP, coffee table sub approximately 3.5ft from MLP, CC approximately 8.5ft from MLP. If the subs are putting out more SPL after the addition of the Y-adapters why do you feel they are not necessary?

-groovin
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post #12225 of 12597 Old 03-20-2019, 05:25 PM
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Ah I forgot you still have the hum... I would just get a couple cheater plugs at Home Depot and use them until the ground loop isolators arrive. At least with them you can properly calibrate the subs. Whatever settings/adjustments you have the gain/sub level at now will be very different after you are able to properly redo MCACC. People need the Y Adapters because the subs have trouble waking up form Auto with Yamaha AVRs. Your MLP is also closer to the subs and this is why I said you should not need the Y-adapters.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #12226 of 12597 Old 03-20-2019, 08:37 PM
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The isolators are expected to arrive Friday. I anxiously waited nearly 3 weeks for these monsters to arrive, I don't mind waiting a few more days to get all the quirks worked out. Especially since I know all this troubleshooting will be worth it in the end. The omni S12 supposedly has a frequency response as low as 19hz but the SPL was no where near as capable. Even the rough tests and tunes I've been performing with the annoying hum in the background makes me realize how much low end I've been missing out on. I continue to hear sounds from audio/video clips I frequent that I've never heard before. This is making me want to revisit every favorite AV clip. I know I've gain a ton of headroom at the lower frequency range but I still expected to get to similar performance out of these dual 4ks at half gain or less with the same calibration in place (receiver sub channel level at -12) compared to the omni s12 and ksw-12 setup. Again, I'm holding off from making any final conclusions until I clear out the bugs and the response I got from adding the Y-adapters was positive. I hope to continue to experience positive outcomes until I meet or get close to my expectations.

-groovin
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post #12227 of 12597 Old 03-21-2019, 08:04 PM
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The Blue Jeans subwoofer isolation transformers arrived a day early. Installing them completely removed all ground noise. The subs are dead silent at idle. Given recent posts of hum issues I would highly recommend purchasing ground isolators to use in conjunction with these subwoofers especially if you have an older home. They seem to be very sensitive to ground loop. My previous setup (Omni S12 + KSW-12) did not have any ground loop issues.

Just to clarify, I wasn't having any issues in regards to signal detection with the automated wake feature. Rather I was having difficulty with signal strength. The subs signal indicator remained green and increasing the sub channel level resulted in a responsive subwoofer which confirmed my theory. The Y-adapter increased signal strength enough from me to reduce sub channel level 7db while maintaining the same SPL level. So it seems the Cap 4Ks appear to be more sensitive with signal input as well. This is with my Pioneer Elite SC-91. Of course everyone's experience may vary. Just food for thought for those of you deciding if use of a Y-adapter is appropriate for your scenario.

I think I'm going purchase a shorter mono cable to see if that will have any affect in performance.

Since my issues have more or less been solved I'll begin performing a full symmetry MCCAC. Hopefully I can find a nice balance that gives me nice blend, clearly audible dialogue, and heavy hitting LFE.

-groovin
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post #12228 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 03:36 AM
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Out of curiosity, do those of you with 4ks ever experience chuffing?

SC-91 Settings:
sub channel level at -12
MCCAC sub EQ 125hz = +1db 63hz = +2db 31hz=+3db

4k Corner Sub Settings:
sub gain 1 click below max (19 clicks I believe)
LF adjust 3 clicks
Delay 0
Chuffing yes (opening scene on edge of tomorrow)

4k Coffee Table Sub Settings:
sub gain 11 clicks
LF adjust 3 clicks
delay 3 clicks
Chuffing no (opening scene on edge of tomorrow)

-groovin
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post #12229 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
Out of curiosity, do those of you with 4ks ever experience chuffing?

SC-91 Settings:
sub channel level at -12
MCCAC sub EQ 125hz = +1db 63hz = +2db 31hz=+3db

4k Corner Sub Settings:
sub gain 1 click below max (19 clicks I believe)
LF adjust 3 clicks
Delay 0
Chuffing yes (opening scene on edge of tomorrow)

4k Coffee Table Sub Settings:
sub gain 11 clicks
LF adjust 3 clicks
delay 3 clicks
Chuffing no (opening scene on edge of tomorrow)

-groovin
Chuffing typically occurs when really pushing a ported sub to at or slightly below its port tune. None of the figures you posted make any difference (all relative to individuals setup). I will say that the EOT opening scene in question will almost always produce some chuffing if driven at a high enough level. It can also bottom out and/ or damage your subs, so be careful with it.
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post #12230 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
The Blue Jeans subwoofer isolation transformers arrived a day early. Installing them completely removed all ground noise. The subs are dead silent at idle. Given recent posts of hum issues I would highly recommend purchasing ground isolators to use in conjunction with these subwoofers especially if you have an older home. They seem to be very sensitive to ground loop. My previous setup (Omni S12 + KSW-12) did not have any ground loop issues.

Just to clarify, I wasn't having any issues in regards to signal detection with the automated wake feature. Rather I was having difficulty with signal strength. The subs signal indicator remained green and increasing the sub channel level resulted in a responsive subwoofer which confirmed my theory. The Y-adapter increased signal strength enough from me to reduce sub channel level 7db while maintaining the same SPL level. So it seems the Cap 4Ks appear to be more sensitive with signal input as well. This is with my Pioneer Elite SC-91. Of course everyone's experience may vary. Just food for thought for those of you deciding if use of a Y-adapter is appropriate for your scenario.

I think I'm going purchase a shorter mono cable to see if that will have any affect in performance.

Since my issues have more or less been solved I'll begin performing a full symmetry MCCAC. Hopefully I can find a nice balance that gives me nice blend, clearly audible dialogue, and heavy hitting LFE.

-groovin
After you do your calibration sweeps, would you mind doing a sweep with and without the isolators? I had heard that they created some distortion / gain compression at higher volumes and am curiously if it’s noticeable.
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post #12231 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 11:24 AM
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IIRC, when I still had the Pioneer SC-1222K, I ran MCACC with the 4000ULF's (12ft away) gain @ 6 clicks, and LF Adjust @ cut (minimum). The MCACC yielded a sub level of -10. After MCACC, I raised the gain to 10 clicks and LF Adjust to Boost (maximum).

With the sub's gain @ 10 clicks and the LF Adjust @ Boost, the EOT intro will make the 4000ULF chuff slightly at the 15Hz tone and more at the 10Hz tone. This is because the LF Adjust boosts 18dB @ 10Hz. I can eliminate all chuffing by keeping the LF Adjust below 4 clicks.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
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post #12232 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DennisPagoulatos View Post
Chuffing typically occurs when really pushing a ported sub to at or slightly below its port tune. None of the figures you posted make any difference (all relative to individuals setup). I will say that the EOT opening scene in question will almost always produce some chuffing if driven at a high enough level. It can also bottom out and/ or damage your subs, so be careful with it.
I know each setup is different but I'd like to think providing information that can affect driver performance (IE settings and equipment) provides some context to the conditions at which chuffing was experienced, albeit a rough comparison. I'm just curious to know if they have ever experienced it and what their setup was at the time.

@MechEE I don't have any equipment to measure anything. I just have the MCCAC mic that came with my receiver and a db app I downloaded on my phone as recommended by chucky7. I'm still messing around with settings and havne't listened to anything beyond -15db. Other than the chuffing I noted in my earlier post, which was limited to the corner sub at nearly max gain (the coffee table sub at 11 clicks gain did not chuff), I haven't noticed any distortion or compression. I doubt I'd be able to notice if this occurred when the sub was chuffing because the FR at that point would be 10-15hz and we stop hearing at about 20hz. All I know is a ton of air was being moved and the house was shaking like crazy. Without the proper equipment I don't think I can provide an accurate answer for you.

@chucky7 Thanks, that information is helpful. My gain at 19 clicks and LF adjust to 3 clicks should be roughly similar to your gain at 10 clicks with max LF adjust at the tuned frequency. At least I'd like to think it's "relatively" similar.

-groovin
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post #12233 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 01:17 PM
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@sonicgroove

When you have a chance, please take out the MCACC mic and re-calibrate. It looks like you haven't done so. The gains for both subs should be way lower than what you have now.

If the MCACC yielded a subwoofer level of -12dB, then it is maxed out. (IIRC, the range is +/-12dB.) It means you have both sub gains way too high. I would aim for a sub level of -10dB.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #12234 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
I know each setup is different but I'd like to think providing information that can affect driver performance (IE settings and equipment) provides some context to the conditions at which chuffing was experienced, albeit a rough comparison. I'm just curious to know if they have ever experienced it and what their setup was at the time.

@MechEE I don't have any equipment to measure anything. I just have the MCCAC mic that came with my receiver and a db app I downloaded on my phone as recommended by chucky7. I'm still messing around with settings and havne't listened to anything beyond -15db. Other than the chuffing I noted in my earlier post, which was limited to the corner sub at nearly max gain (the coffee table sub at 11 clicks gain did not chuff), I haven't noticed any distortion or compression. I doubt I'd be able to notice if this occurred when the sub was chuffing because the FR at that point would be 10-15hz and we stop hearing at about 20hz. All I know is a ton of air was being moved and the house was shaking like crazy. Without the proper equipment I don't think I can provide an accurate answer for you.

@chucky7 Thanks, that information is helpful. My gain at 19 clicks and LF adjust to 3 clicks should be roughly similar to your gain at 10 clicks with max LF adjust at the tuned frequency. At least I'd like to think it's "relatively" similar.

-groovin
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
@sonicgroove

When you have a chance, please take out the MCACC mic and re-calibrate. It looks like you haven't done so. The gains for both subs should be way lower than what you have now.

If the MCACC yielded a subwoofer level of -12dB, then it is maxed out. (IIRC, the range is +/-12dB.) It means you have both sub gains way too high. I would aim for a sub level of -10dB.


In addition to what Chucky suggested about your initial calibration gain levels being too high, and to get you off the -12 setting, you might also want to get your final sub trim level up into about the the -6 or -7 range, for its own sake. As a general rule, you don't want your sub trim to approach positive numbers, and I like using about -5 as an upper limit. But, I have seen some instances where having an extremely low trim level didn't allow subs to reach their max output. I can't really account for that. It is simply something I have observed that might be worth trying here. Once your calibration yields a setting of -10 or so, you can always raise the trim level by a few db, post-calibration.

Also, if I wanted to see what my Cap 4000's would do with the intro to EOT, I would probably increase my LF adjust more than I would turn up the volume on my subs. I agree with another poster that the intro to EOT is something for most people to be careful with. (Dual Cap 4000ULF's, perhaps not so much.) But, if you want to maximize the very low performance of your subwoofers, for that specific scene, I believe that the LFA will be a more effective adjustment than pushing the gain on your subs, precisely because it will concentrate more amp power in the lowest frequencies, instead of distributing the amp power more equally into the mid-bass as well.

I would probably experiment with the LFA a little more, if you are going to try the EOT intro again.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #12235 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 06:36 PM
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@chucky7 @mthomas47 Those settings were before I performed MCCAC. My goal is to adjust the gain on the subs and perform a calibration to get me exactly at -12db. I've only done one calibration so far and I went down to 16 clicks and 9 clicks. I still hit -12db with a warning sub setting too high. I'll eventually find the balance after a few more calibration tests. I'll let you guys know what settings I end settling at.

-groovin
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post #12236 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 07:13 PM
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@chucky7 @mthomas47 Those settings were before I performed MCCAC. My goal is to adjust the gain on the subs and perform a calibration to get me exactly at -12db. I've only done one calibration so far and I went down to 16 clicks and 9 clicks. I still hit -12db with a warning sub setting too high. I'll eventually find the balance after a few more calibration tests. I'll let you guys know what settings I end settling at.

-groovin
The SpeakerPower amps are very sensitive and when referring to gain settings as clicks it's confusing as to where you're setting the gain, my experience with them (amps) with gain setting at about 10:00 o'clock running REQ will usually set my sub trim levels around -10-11dB and closer subs around 9:00 will get me into that same trim level. @-12dB you really have no idea how low the level actually is, at 16 "clicks" you're closer to 3:00 which in my experience is way too much gain and will always max the trim level out to -12dB. Try a quick one mic position calibration with less gain on amp(s) and repeat till you get the desired trim levels for both subs....then run the full calibration......
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post #12237 of 12597 Old 03-22-2019, 09:09 PM
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Ah I forgot you still have the hum... I would just get a couple cheater plugs at Home Depot and use them until the ground loop isolators arrive. At least with them you can properly calibrate the subs. Whatever settings/adjustments you have the gain/sub level at now will be very different after you are able to properly redo MCACC. People need the Y Adapters because the subs have trouble waking up form Auto with Yamaha AVRs. Your MLP is also closer to the subs and this is why I said you should not need the Y-adapters.
I actually use the Y-adapter to connect the receiver sub RCA to both inputs on my 2400ULF and the bass is audibly more. Before connecting the Y adapter the bass was there but after the Y-adapter the bass almost doubled. Is that usually normal? Should the Y adapter make that much of a difference and if so why not use that route?
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post #12238 of 12597 Old 03-23-2019, 12:45 AM
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I had more time to mess around and got an initial calibration setup. Coffee table at 4 clicks and corner load at 5 clicks gives me exactly -12db sub channel level with no high gain level warning. My previous test was coffee 3 and corner 4 which produced a sub channel level of -10db. So increasing both subs by 1 click got me to my goal of -12db. After completion of the calibration I decreased all channel levels by 1db and increased CC by 1db. I then adjusted EQ for all channels except for Sub EQ; 250hz range was increased by .5db and 125hz by 1db. For Sub EQ: 125hz was increased by 1db, 63hz increased by 2db, 31hz increased 3db. Speakers set to small and crossover at 100hz. Gain on both subs increased by 4 clicks and LF adjust at 3 clicks. X-Cure (high frequency attenuation) set to -1db.

When I listen to music I switch to Ext Stereo. As long as the song isn't bass boosted, this modified calibration sounds good. In fact it sounds nearly identical to my previous setup with the exception of bass sounding more controlled or in other words tighter. Of course there's the obvious increase in SPL at the lower frequency which, for the first time, allowed me to experience the full audio range the music artist imagined when composing the track. This is especially true in regards to music that have incorporated really low frequencies like basstronics I love bass. Its a night and day difference when you have a sub that is able to put out over 100db at 10hz. The music easily envelopes the room creating a very fulfilling ambiance. The RF-7 II and RC-64 II are very sharp and can be very overwhelming but adjusting the high frequency attenuation and coupling them with the 4k subs fixes this. The blinding brightness of the highs now mesh well with the heavy punch of the lows. It's only when the song is bass boosted that the bass overpowers everything and the onset of ear fatigue begins. Null spots appear to be less distinguishable. Now I would say its 1db at most at what I questionably believe to be a null spot? Lastly, the sides and corners in the previous setup were significantly amplified. If I had to guess I would say it was 3db or more than the MLP. Now, the sides and corners sound identical to the MLP

For movies I normally listen in auto surr or dolby. I've only tested opening scene of star trek and so far seems pretty good. I have a few movies lined up that I'm looking forward to. If needed, I'll be making adjustments on the fly.

I just want to reiterate, if its not already apparent, I'm kind of a bass head that really enjoys clean hitting bass music and heavy hitting LFE in movies. As you can see I was able to calibrate the subs at -12db channel level with only 4-5 clicks on the sub gain. I even increased them by 4 clicks after the calibration which puts me at just half the total gain for the subs. I still have so much headroom its pretty ridiculous. This should provide some idea just how monstrous these things are. A single 4k at a great location or a pair of well placed 2400 would already be more than I need but as they say... go big or go home or in my case go big and destroy your home...

-groovin
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post #12239 of 12597 Old 03-23-2019, 05:03 AM
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@ sonicgroove,

Coffee table 4000ULF's gain @ 4 clicks and corner 4000ULF 's gain @ 5 clicks for sub level of -12dB are more like it! Under normal circumstances, most experienced members here would tell you to turn the gains down. However, in this case it's perfectly fine.

What you posted before (corner sub gains at 1 click below max and coffee table 's gain @ 11 clicks) had us concerned.

Now you are all set. We would love to hear you impressions after you are able to watch a few bass flicks.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #12240 of 12597 Old 03-23-2019, 11:15 AM
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@ sonicgroove,

Coffee table 4000ULF's gain @ 4 clicks and corner 4000ULF 's gain @ 5 clicks for sub level of -12dB are more like it! Under normal circumstances, most experienced members here would tell you to turn the gains down. However, in this case it's perfectly fine.

What you posted before (corner sub gains at 1 click below max and coffee table 's gain @ 11 clicks) had us concerned.

Now you are all set. We would love to hear you impressions after you are able to watch a few bass flicks.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, why would shooting for a -12dB trim level be reco'd, that's playing a guessing game what -12dB actually represents in SPL output, wouldn't it be more conducive to knowing the actual value to shoot for anything under -12dB (-10-11), from there being a bass head as he says he could raise the trims to -6-7dB and also adjust gains up on both sub amps accordingly to guarantee headroom at higher MV levels to achieve strong 10Hz results.........For me this will result in both subs being at least level matched and he could verify this with a simple SPL meter......just my two cents.....
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