Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 416 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12451 of 12682 Old 04-25-2019, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Please see attached picture:
Thanks Jeff You helped me out alot both subs work Great now thanks for making these Awesome subs
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post #12452 of 12682 Old 04-25-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post


If what you are describing is not bass localization, but a specific issue with sound coming from the side of the cabinet at close range, then you will need to contact Jeff for specific advice. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike. It is not bass localization but more of bass coming from the side. I did change the speaker location and it is less obvious now so it might be speaker placement issue. Will have to check again to make sure again though.
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post #12453 of 12682 Old 04-25-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mir3acles View Post
Thanks Mike. It is not bass localization but more of bass coming from the side. I did change the speaker location and it is less obvious now so it might be speaker placement issue. Will have to check again to make sure again though.
Place the sub in the middle of the room away from boundaries and listen, should be obvious then....
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post #12454 of 12682 Old 04-26-2019, 05:28 AM
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@tpe4ever , I own original Carver Amazing Loudspeakers, and I recently purchased a used pair of JTR S2s. I have not heard any other JTR speakers. In my opinion, sealed subs, ported subs, and planar subs all have a different sound. As suggested already the different types of bass may not play well together in the same room.

I believe you should stop investing in new equipment (one possible exception below) and instead work on getting the most from what you already have. As a Carver Amazing speaker owner I am sure you know, you cannot just plop them down, connect wires, and expect to get the best sound. An active crossover, like you have done, positioning, different amplifiers all make a difference in sound. Have you tried adding weight to the base of the Carvers? I use some dumbbells I had on hand and it improved the bass. Are the Carvers 5 feet from the wall behind them? Set up properly, the Carvers can fill a large room with very nice bass.

You have some great equipment. Now you can stop spending money and spend time to improve your sound. A friend familiar with REW come over to help me with the S2s. He took the time to make sure all the speakers were working together by time aligning them. I can’t emphasize enough what a difference that process made. It’s like having brand new speakers. The system is louder and clearer in the main listening position. I now listen at a lower volume on the preamp.

I am still adjusting to the new sound and trying to set levels that work for music and home theater. To be honest even with music, I have to adjust levels sometime. Sources do vary in volume and equalization. In my opinion, it is important to know where everything should be adjusted for a flat response as a reference, from there adjust to taste.

I am not familiar with the Marantz. I am using a Sherbourn PT-7030. The Sherbourn preamp allows me to make temporary volume adjustments to any of the 7.1 speakers from the remote. When I change sources, the setting return to default settings. I am also able to adjust sub levels based on what format is playing, 2 channel stereo, various forms of Dolby, etc. I have not set individual levels but that may be the next option I try. It may take months to get your system dialed in. Keep trying, you learn in the process, and the results are well worth it.

By the way, the JTR S2s are flat to 6 Hz in my 14 x 29 x 8 room. The subs are 8 Db down at 5Hz. I currently have them positioned in diagonal corners. I did invest in a Minidsp and if your equipment does not allow you to individually equalize, control the delay, and adjust the volume of each sub I would suggest you invest in one. I ordered the regular 2x4 and it works just fine for my needs. Your room is larger and may require more delay than the 2x4 allows. Stepping up to higher models will allow a greater range of delay.

I apologize for the very long post. Good Luck.

John
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post #12455 of 12682 Old 04-26-2019, 05:30 AM
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I do not use the Carvers for home theater, they are in another room. In the multi channel, basement room I use Vandersteen speakers.
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post #12456 of 12682 Old 04-26-2019, 05:38 PM
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Spoiler alert: The following is not JTR related:

I just saw this on Costco.com. The price is excellent... Let's call it JTR fans special...

Dunhill Leather Power Recliner: $299.89 delivered!!!

Top Grain Leather with Polyurethane Match by Pulaski.
Threshold delivery included.

https://www.costco.com/Dunhill-Leath...rdion-header-4
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Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #12457 of 12682 Old 04-26-2019, 05:49 PM
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good find...my 2 cents is that I will never ever buy something I sit in long periods of time w/out sitting in it first...just saying.
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post #12458 of 12682 Old 04-26-2019, 10:18 PM
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I bought a couch from Z Gallerie that is the size of a twin bed. Single best piece of furniture I’ve ever purchased. Like having a bed in the living room. Great for getting cozy with the missus while watching movies. Or long drunken nights listening to music and then passing out on the couch and sleeping like a baby with her. A seriously badass couch.
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post #12459 of 12682 Old 04-26-2019, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
good find...my 2 cents is that I will never ever buy something I sit in long periods of time w/out sitting in it first...just saying.
for $300 there isn't much risk involved though. i bought my theater seating without trying it out (because it wasn't an option, there's nothing sold locally like it) and it was fine for what it cost. i do hear what you're saying though. it's like going to a car dealership and being told you can't test drive a car--which is annoyingly commonplace if you're looking to buy a fun sporty car.


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post #12460 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 03:13 AM
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A power leather recliner for $299.89 delivered is a great price. I go to Costco at least once a week. If the store has power leather recliners, they would be at least $399.99 cash and carry.

If you don't like it, just give costco a call and they will come and pick it up from you and issue a full refund. Since it is not electronics, it basically has lifetime satisfaction guarantee.
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FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 04-30-2019 at 10:48 PM.
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post #12461 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 03:42 AM
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Directly from Jeff:

Product Feeler: Any interest in a Captivator 1200? Same cabinet design as 2400 (10hz tune) but with a 15" driver, 33mm X-Max, and a 1200W ICE Power amp. Should produce 106db, 10hz, 1m, peak (97db, 2m, rms) and $1999 + shipping.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 04-27-2019 at 06:32 AM.
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post #12462 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Directly from Jeff:

Product Feeler: Any interest in a Captivator 1200? Same cabinet design as 2400 (10hz tune) but with a 15" driver, 33mm X-Max, and a 1200W ICE Power amp. Should produce 106db, 10hz, 1m, peak (97db, 2m, rms) and $1999 + shipping.
15 inch driver for over $2K? would you not just buy the 2400 since even the cab size is the same?
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post #12463 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
15 inch driver for over $2K? would you not just buy the 2400 since even the cab size is the same?
$500 difference in price tags. Not sure if shipping varies any.


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post #12464 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
15 inch driver for over $2K? would you not just buy the 2400 since even the cab size is the same?
That's kind of the first thing that came to my mind...

It's a rich man's 15" or a poor man's Cap 2400... depending on how one looks at it...

Personally, if my budget were under $2000 per sub, I wouldn't be aiming for a 10Hz tuned ported.

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FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 04-27-2019 at 03:11 PM.
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post #12465 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sweet Jimmy View Post
The 2400ULFs have certainly ended my game. I'll never endeavor to achieve a deeper tune or a superior appearance. These have completed me. I'm now whole. A 5hz tune won't make me stray. We three will live in a faithful polygamous bliss until I've breathed my last.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Regards, Can
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post #12467 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Directly from Jeff:

Product Feeler: Any interest in a Captivator 1200? Same cabinet design as 2400 (10hz tune) but with a 15" driver, 33mm X-Max, and a 1200W ICE Power amp. Should produce 106db, 10hz, 1m, peak (97db, 2m, rms) and $1999 + shipping.

This would likely result in the deepest bass of any 15 incher on the market? And would/could come close in performance, or even surpass, low Xmax 18 inch subwoofers?

It is intriguing from that aspect, and great for those whose space is at a premium. Does any ID company make 33 Xmax 15 inch subwoofer?

Chucky's table for comparison. It is pretty impressive, actually VERY VERY impressive , for an 15 incher. *If* the upper bass output holds.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 04-27-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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post #12468 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post
Badass!!

The port wind coming off of those would be so cool!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It could be felt at back of the room during Bass I Love you earlier tonight.

Incredible. Any question whether JTR is bass-crazy?
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Regards, Can
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).
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post #12469 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 12:33 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
This would likely result in the deepest bass of any 15 incher on the market? And would/could come close in performance, or even surpass, low Xmax 18 inch subwoofers?



It is intriguing from that aspect, and great for those whose space is at a premium. Does any ID company make 33 Xmax 15 inch subwoofer?



Chucky's table for comparison. It is pretty impressive, actually VERY VERY impressive , for an 15 incher. *If* the upper bass output holds.



If it saved space then I can see a case for it but it says it’s the same cab as a 2400 and around $500 difference to the 2400. That is what is stumping me and Chucky


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post #12470 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post

It is intriguing from that aspect, and great for those whose space is at a premium. Does any ID company make 33 Xmax 15 inch subwoofer?
SVS - 65 mm
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post #12471 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 04:56 PM
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So I eventually replaced the 4k ULF clicking amp with the replacement amp that was sent by speakerpower. It fixed the clicking issue, however, now the bass doesn't seem to be as deep as with the clicking amp and sounds pretty thin (clicking amp was better). I have the Denon x4300h receiver which should be plenty of voltage to the sub. Also to test the new amp and clicking amp I did a series of tests from audyssey calibration without any change in speaker placement or other settings (to make everything consistent). Here are the results of the avr trim levels:

Connected directly using RCA without a Y- Splitter with sub boost at 0 audyssey sets the sub at:

..........................Replacement amp...... Clicking amp
6 clicks gain..............-7.5..........................-9.5
7 clicks gain..............-9.5..........................-11.5
8 clicks gain..............-11.0........................-12.0
9 clicks gain..............-12.0........................-12.0
(almost half way of max gain)

What surprised me that my gain level is almost half way from max gain when audyssey sets the sub to reference with the replacement amp.

Connected with a Y-Splitter to both left/ right LFE inputs with sub boost at 0 audyssey sets the sub at:

..........................Replacement amp...... Clicking amp
4 clicks gain..............-7.5...........................-9.0
5 clicks gain..............-10.5.........................-12.0
6 clicks gain..............-12.0.........................-12.0

It is also surprising how much decibels are added with a Y- Splitter. Is there a problem with the replacement amp that was sent out since it is setting it to almost half way gain for reference or could it be that there is a problem with the receiver. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Last edited by mir3acles; 04-27-2019 at 05:08 PM.
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post #12472 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Directly from Jeff:

Product Feeler: Any interest in a Captivator 1200? Same cabinet design as 2400 (10hz tune) but with a 15" driver, 33mm X-Max, and a 1200W ICE Power amp. Should produce 106db, 10hz, 1m, peak (97db, 2m, rms) and $1999 + shipping.

This isn't meant to be a slam on JTR or their subs but why the constant hunt to get 10hz port tunes? It is probably the least used frequency in all of movies and music?? Maybe 2 to 3 movies use this that I know of?? Why penalize the rest of the frequency output from 10hz up by tuning so low? Is this more of a Db drag race type of thing, or is there another purpose I don't know of? I don't have any music that realistically use much below 20hz, and it is usually one of those annoying bass test tracks. Am I missing something?



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post #12473 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 05:22 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscles View Post
This isn't meant to be a slam on JTR or their subs but why the constant hunt to get 10hz port tunes? It is probably the least used frequency in all of movies and music?? Maybe 2 to 3 movies use this that I know of?? Why penalize the rest of the frequency output from 10hz up by tuning so low? Is this more of a Db drag race type of thing, or is there another purpose I don't know of? I don't have any music that realistically use much below 20hz, and it is usually one of those annoying bass test tracks. Am I missing something?



Greg


All I got to say is BEQ! more for movies though.


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post #12474 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mir3acles View Post
So I eventually replaced the 4k ULF clicking amp with the replacement amp that was sent by speakerpower. It fixed the clicking issue, however, now the bass doesn't seem to be as deep as with the clicking amp and sounds pretty thin (clicking amp was better). I have the Denon x4300h receiver which should be plenty of voltage to the sub. Also to test the new amp and clicking amp I did a series of tests from audyssey calibration without any change in speaker placement or other settings (to make everything consistent). Here are the results of the avr trim levels:

Connected directly using RCA without a Y- Splitter with sub boost at 0 audyssey sets the sub at:

..........................Replacement amp...... Clicking amp
6 clicks gain..............-7.5..........................-9.5
7 clicks gain..............-9.5..........................-11.5
8 clicks gain..............-11.0........................-12.0
9 clicks gain..............-12.0........................-12.0
(almost half way of max gain)

What surprised me that my gain level is almost half way from max gain when audyssey sets the sub to reference with the replacement amp.

Connected with a Y-Splitter to both left/ right LFE inputs with sub boost at 0 audyssey sets the sub at:

..........................Replacement amp...... Clicking amp
4 clicks gain..............-7.5...........................-9.0
5 clicks gain..............-10.5.........................-12.0
6 clicks gain..............-12.0.........................-12.0

It is also surprising how much decibels are added with a Y- Splitter. Is there a problem with the replacement amp that was sent out since it is setting it to almost half way gain for reference or could it be that there is a problem with the receiver. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Hi,

I agree with you about the 10Hz port tune number. In my opinion, it's more of a niche concept than anything fundamental (pun intended). Anywhere from about a 15 or 16Hz port tune down will probably produce a satisfactory result for 99.9% of the HT content, as long as the sub's DSP is appropriately distributed to the low-frequencies.

With respect to your replacement amp, I wouldn't worry about the apparent difference in gain structure unless Jeff confirms that there is a potential problem. I wouldn't necessarily expect the gain structure to be identical between two different amps, although it should be close, as it is in the examples above.

As long as you have plenty of headroom, which it certainly appears that you do, the specific gain setting really isn't very relevant, anyway. Just turn-up the volume on the sub to the levels that you prefer, and you should be good to go.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #12475 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
All I got to say is BEQ! more for movies though.


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So are you saying that the only reason to tune a sub to 10hz is to take advantage of BEQ which takes more money, time, and effort? I've owned and praised JTR but I'm also curious why so much effort is put towards a 10hz tune sub. I read way more than I post but @muscles has a very valid point that I'm sure many of us have thought about. That's why I felt compelled to comment.
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post #12476 of 12682 Old 04-27-2019, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Darian97 View Post
So are you saying that the only reason to tune a sub to 10hz is to take advantage of BEQ which takes more money, time, and effort? I've owned and praised JTR but I'm also curious why so much effort is put towards a 10hz tune sub. I read way more than I post but @muscles has a very valid point that I'm sure many of us have thought about. That's why I felt compelled to comment.


All I am saying is that there is a lot more content now thanks to BEQ is way below 20hz. No one is forcing you to buy a low tuned sub.


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post #12477 of 12682 Old 04-28-2019, 12:06 AM
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while 10hz may be a touch low for some, i see far more ported sub offerings that are tuned entirely too high (closer to 20hz), and i believe that's directly fueled by companies trying to keep both the size & footprint of the cabinet as small as possible for weight savings & reduced shipping costs.


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post #12478 of 12682 Old 04-28-2019, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
SVS - 65 mm
Is this a mistake?

PB16-Ultra's driver has 95 mm peak to peak (Xmech) and 82 mm Xmax


SB16-Ultra has 78 mm peak to peak (Xmech) and 65 mm Xmax


Isn't the Xmech much more than double of Xmax (Maximum Linear Excursion)?

For example, the popular Dayton Audio UM18-22 has 22 mm of Xmax, and > 51 mm of Xmech. JTR's 18" 33 mm Xmax driver has > 102 mm of peak to peak (Xmech).
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post #12479 of 12682 Old 04-28-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

As long as you have plenty of headroom, which it certainly appears that you do, the specific gain setting really isn't very relevant, anyway. Just turn-up the volume on the sub to the levels that you prefer, and you should be good to go.

Regards,
Mike
But what worries me is that audyssey sets my reference sub trim at almost half the max gain. If I increase it further a few more clicks I would be close to the max gain. Is this usually normal? What I have heard from other 4K owners is that typically the reference avr trim is usually set at 9 clock position (and then they bump it up a few more clicks) rather than at 12 'O clock like in my case.
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Last edited by mir3acles; 04-28-2019 at 08:49 AM.
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post #12480 of 12682 Old 04-28-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mir3acles View Post
But what worries me is that audyssey sets my reference sub trim at almost half the max gain. If I increase it further a few more clicks I would be close to the max gain. Is this usually normal? What I have heard from other 4K owners is that typically the reference avr trim is usually set at 9 clock position (and then they bump it up a few more clicks) rather than at 12 'O clock like in my case.

You can certainly check with Jeff, if you are still concerned, but I think that what you are describing is simply not an issue. Audyssey will set trim levels based on four factors: the inherent capabilities of the subwoofer; the internal gain structure of the subwoofer amp, which varies among different makes and models; the subwoofer's position in the room with respect to the MLP; and the initial gain setting on the sub. Change any one of those factors, and the trim level that Audyssey sets in order to get the subwoofer to play ~75db at the MLP, will also change.

If Audyssey is setting a trim level of -12 with the gain at about the halfway mark, then you have plenty of headroom left to turn the sub volume up as much as you want. You should actually shoot for a post-Audyssey trim level of no lower than -11.5, by adjusting your subwoofer gain down one click. When you were at 5 clicks of gain, and -10.5, you were right where you wanted to be. So, just run Audyssey again to get back to the -10 to -11 range.

Then, after Audyssey finishes calibrating your system, you can turn up your sub AVR trim by about 5db to get to about -5 or -6. Additional subwoofer boosts can be made using the subwoofer gain. That Cap 4000ULF is going to produce a lot of bass. You just need to turn-up the volume on the sub.

You really can't compare your gain/trim settings for the sub, in its specific position in your room, to someone else's settings in a different room. Again, I believe that your subwoofer (with the new amp) is operating normally.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I added something to the above on gain structure. You really need to read Section II of the Guide linked in my signature. During the calibration process, gain and trim are inversely proportional. A higher gain setting means a lower trim setting, and vice-versa. But, your AVR runs out of trim at -12, so you don't want Audyssey to set your sub at -12. The real number might be -13 or -14. That's why we shoot for no lower than -11.5. I would strongly recommend reading Section II to understand the calibration process better, and how it relates to gain/trim settings.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 04-28-2019 at 10:31 AM.
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