Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 431 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12901 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Todd,

Beautiful Subs you got there! Question(s) for those who know. This model was referred to as the Tall Boy 2400ULF. Then I checked the JTR web page and it is the only configuration listed. First question: Does Jeff no longer offer the Original lower but longer configuration? Or does he offer either on request? I suspect the latter, but want to make sure. Thank you.

Second Question: I notice this Tall Boy configuration only has one port, while the low boy Original Config has dual ports. What was the reason for this change ? I assume to achieve the lower port tune, but had to ask. Thanks Gentlemen.
Thanks Adam! Don’t know if you remember me saying but your twin dragons were a key part in me joining the “family”. In my best Marlon Brando, “They made me an offer I couldn’t refuse.”

You are correct on both accounts. I think the default config is the tall boy but Jeff can still make the low boy as chucky7 has mentioned in the past. Someone interested would have to contact Jeff for confirmation. The single port lowers the tune to 10hz.

As you and I know, and for anyone interested......in either config or port tune.....they will out right destroy a room. They’ve pretty much laughed at everything I’ve thrown at them. 15dB hot.....lol, BEQ....stop playing around, 0 MV.....when are we going to do some real work.... I’m exaggerating a bit here, I haven’t had all 3 of those settings at once. But, I have had it loud enough to scare me.

Happy listening y’all, it’s Friday!

Todd
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post #12902 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Thanks Adam! Don’t know if you remember me saying but your twin dragons were a key part in me joining the “family”. In my best Marlon Brando, “They made me an offer I couldn’t refuse.”

You are correct on both accounts. I think the default config is the tall boy but Jeff can still make the low boy as chucky7 has mentioned in the past. Someone interested would have to contact Jeff for confirmation. The single port lowers the tune to 10hz.

As you and I know, and for anyone interested......in either config or port tune.....they will out right destroy a room. They’ve pretty much laughed at everything I’ve thrown at them. 15dB hot.....lol, BEQ....stop playing around, 0 MV.....when are we going to do some real work.... I’m exaggerating a bit here, I haven’t had all 3 of those settings at once. But, I have had it loud enough to scare me.

Happy listening y’all, it’s Friday!

Todd
Hi Todd,

Thanks for that reply! I did forget my tie in with your upgrade. I tend to do that more often lately. My apologies Sir. I can completely relate to your experiences with these Monsters. When I say they have scared me to completely FLEE my room, I was not excaderationing one iota. They can produce so much pressure and tactile energy it is unnerving at times. They trigger something in my subconscious mind that compels me to get the hell out Now! This is difficult to put into words or terms that can describe what they can make you feel/sense. Akin to how some Animals begin to scurry right before a major Earthquake or Tsunami.

I had a group of 4 guests over one night for a Wine Tasting event. As the night wore on, one of the Guests said "Hey, give us a Demo of your Home Theater"! Of course like most of us here, this was Music to my Ears.

I eagerly grabbed my UHD of "Interstellar" and cranked it up! I think I set MV at -14. That is about my absolute Max for most content. Selected the Docking Scene first, followed by the Black Hole Scene.

During the Docking scene everyone was standing in the main viewing area. As the docking scene progressed People slowly migrated to the Kitchen. (open floor plan so they moved about 10-15 feet away and a little to the right of Main Area. Then the "Black Hole" signwave hit! All guests began to swiftly migrate towards the front door down a long hallway to escape what they believed was about to blow apart. It was scary and funny at the same time! The faces were priceless and the comments were mostly "What the hell was that and why would you do that to us?". They were totally unprepared for what was coming! In some regards they were right of course. They are not "Bassheads" and put plainly, they still retain a modicum of Sanity that we Basshards have long ago, tossed into the trash heap.

In retrospect, I should have given them a bolder waring! Some of these Guests are the ones I mentioned in a previous Post, that have never come back! My Wife gave me a stare down later that night. She did not need to say a word, I got the message.

We here are a unique breed. It is indeed a rare occasion when I actually meet a potential "Basshead" in the wild. Few and very Far between.

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post #12903 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Exactly what is this and how does one do this and prevent this. Is this in reference to his AVR gain structure or how he had the RCA jack connections? The former I understand, the latter I am a in need of a refresher.
I can't fully answer your first question. However, I can tell you my take on what Youthman did wrong.

Basically, whenever we switch out/upgrade speakers/subs, we should re-run the auto room correction software. If not, the AVR still applies the original speaker/sub level and EQ to the new gear.

Now, when we do a shoot out, running auto room correction for every speaker/sub is not practical particularly when there are many of them. Therefore, the easiest way is turning off the auto room correction and level matching the contestants. For subwoofers, each sub's gain is adjusted so that they are level matched. This way we can just swap them out in seconds.

On Youthman's review video, he mentioned hearing strange noises from the Cap 2400XS. He couldn't tell if it was chuffing or not. Chuffing is very distinctive. Then one viewer asked him if he turned off Audyssey when listening to the Cap 2400XS. He said he did not. Therefore, his AVR was applying the sub level and EQ of his PB16-Ultras to the 2400XS.

Turning off the auto room correction is second nature for anyone who has done enough shoot outs or reviews. I did it when I was comparing the Cap 1400 with Monolith 15" and Cap 4000ULF with Cap 1400. Youthman said he forgot to do it on the Cap 2400XS. I believe it is entirely possible that he didn't know he has to turn off Audyssey during shoot outs. If that is the case, basically ALL the sub comparisons he has done so far are flawed.

Youthman also did not turn off Dynamic EQ. Dynamic EQ boosts the bass if you are listening at below reference levels. Therefore, the lower the MV, there more bass boost is applied. Personally, I never turn Dynamic EQ on.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #12904 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Exactly what is this and how does one do this and prevent this. Is this in reference to his AVR gain structure or how he had the RCA jack connections? The former I understand, the latter I am a in need of a refresher.

I do wish to point out, that some of these setup problems could be prevented/solved with a Setup Guide or Setup Owners Manual that ships with the Sub. Setting up Subs properly is beyond the Average/layman's common sense intellect level.
It's in reference to the AVR gain structure along with hooking up both RCAs at once. Running both inputs along with the trim he had set could have been clipping the input if the amp was summing the signal.
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post #12905 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 09:24 AM
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Lol, that's a great story, thanks for sharing! I think we all like to flex our muscles and show off a bit, that's all part of the fun!

And believe you me..............I know exactly what that stare looks like. I get it on a weekly basis.

Todd
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post #12906 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Todd,

Beautiful Subs you got there! Question(s) for those who know. This model was referred to as the Tall Boy 2400ULF. Then I checked the JTR web page and it is the only configuration listed. First question: Does Jeff no longer offer the Original lower but longer configuration? Or does he offer either on request? I suspect the latter, but want to make sure. Thank you.

Second Question: I notice this Tall Boy configuration only has one port, while the low boy Original Config has dual ports. What was the reason for this change ? I assume to achieve the lower port tune, but had to ask. Thanks Gentlemen.
Adam, you have the original 2400ULF. Jeff doesn't update JTR website so I think he just put the more popular configuration on it. Prospective buyer should contact Jeff regarding the availability of the low rider.

The original 2400ULF was tuned to 14Hz. In May 2018, Jeff decided to tune it even lower to 10Hz. This allows better integration with the 4000ULF. Holding the cabinet volume constant, port tune is a function of port area vs port length. In order to lower the port tune from 14Hz to 10Hz, Jeff had 2 choices. 1.) extending the port length. This is harder to do without making the cabinet bigger or having turns in the port. 2.) reducing the port area. Jeff chose the latter.

Hope this helps!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 10-02-2019 at 02:38 AM.
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post #12907 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I can't fully answer your first question. However, I can tell you my take on what Youthman did wrong.

Basically, whenever we switch out/upgrade speakers/subs, we should re-run the auto room correction software. If not, the AVR still applies the original speaker/sub level and EQ to the new gear.

Now, if we are doing a shoot out, running auto room correction software is not practical particularly when there are many contestants. Therefore, the easiest way is turning off the auto room correction and level match the contestants. For subwoofers, each sub's gain is adjusted so that they are level matched. This way we can just swap them out in seconds.

On Youthman's review video, he mentioned hearing strange noises from the Cap 2400XS. He couldn't tell if it was chuffing or not. Chuffing is very distinctive. Then one viewer asked him if he turned off Audyssey when listening to the Cap 2400XS. He said he did not. Therefore, his AVR was applying the sub level and EQ of his PB16-Ultras to the 2400XS.

Turning off the auto room correction is second nature for anyone who has done enough shoot outs or reviews. I did it when I was comparing the Cap 1400 with Monolith 15" and Cap 4000ULF with Cap 1400. Youthman said he forgot to do it on the Cap 2400XS. I believe it is entirely possible that he didn't know he has to turn off Audyssey during shoot outs. If that is the case, basically ALL the sub comparisons he has done so far are flawed.

Youthman also did not turn off Dynamic EQ. Dynamic EQ boosts the bass if you are listening at below reference levels. Therefore, the lower the MV, there more bass boost is applied. Personally, I never turn Dynamic EQ on.
Hi Chucky,

Thanks for the detailed run down. I did know most of that. Or was able to make the mental leap. Where my real question was is about the connections part. I think @STL D is addressing that specifically below. I will add my follow up questions at the end. Appreciate all the Great Work and info you provide here Brother. We are lucky to have you here!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by STL D View Post
It's in reference to the AVR gain structure along with hooking up both RCAs at once. Running both inputs along with the trim he had set could have been clipping the input if the amp was summing the signal.
Hi STL D,

This is exactly what I was so poorly asking about! I will ask some follow up's below. Appreciate the reply!

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddct View Post
Lol, that's a great story, thanks for sharing! I think we all like to flex our muscles and show off a bit, that's all part of the fun!

And believe you me..............I know exactly what that stare looks like. I get it on a weekly basis.

Todd
Hi Todd,

Parallel universe perhaps? I really don't think mere words can describe the power of the JTR line of Subs. One MUST demo them to realize what is on tap here. Seek out someone close that has a JTR sub. I don't think it matters what model they might have in regards to the Model you might be interested in. All of his Sub's are simply astonishing and can only be realized by actually hearing/feeling them in person.

I am happy to Demo the Subs I have for any AVS member who may be local or willing to drive. Just south of Tampa area. About 35-40 mins south.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Adam, you have the original 2400ULF. Jeff doesn't update JTR website so I think he just put the more popular configuration on it. Prospective buyer should contact Jeff regarding the availability of the low rider.

The original 2400ULF was tuned to 14Hz. In May 2017, Jeff decided to tune it even lower to 10Hz. This allows better integration with the 4000ULF. Holding the cabinet volume constant, port tune is a function of port area vs port length. In order to lower the port tune from 14Hz to 10Hz, Jeff had 2 choices. 1.) extending the port length. This is harder to do without making the cabinet bigger or having turns in the port. 2.) reducing the port area. Jeff chose the latter.

Hope this helps!
Hi again Chucky,

Yes Sir that does help and refreshes my stale memory. Again, thank you for your time Sir!

Follow up question about connections from my AVR to the Sub's. I use the standard high quality Sub cable for the initial run. But then I add a splitter and connect to both RCA input jacks on the Sub in Amp. Is this technically incorrect and if so, why? I have had it this way since installing them several years ago now. Have not noticed a audible problem. However, if this config is incorrect I most certainly wish to know that, and make proper corrections! Thanks Guys, truly appreciate all the wonderful help in here.

FYI: I am engaging Cascading Crossovers and make sure my AVR Sub trim is in the Negative numbers. Current calibration set the Subs to Sub1-(-9.0) and Sub2 (-9.5). I don't use any Global Sub channel Trim boost. But I do add some gain post calibration to the Sub Amp Gain control. I add back in 3 clicks after calibration as Level Matching causes me to dial back the Sub Amp gain to stay inside the required range. Sub Amp Gains are about 11' o'clock give or take a smidgen. @mthomas47 helped me set all the trims properly, but I don't think we ever discussed how I had the Subs wired?
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post #12908 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:13 AM
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It's really damaging to a small company's reputation to have false or misleading information about its products put out to so many people.
It's great that he took the video down and I don't doubt that he has enthusiasm for the hobby and seems to be a nice guy, but it's a shame that JTR's reputation gets smeared all in the name of youthman's learning home theater basics.
This was my entire point. If truly the guy didn't know he needed to turn audyssey off then he needs to do some serious homework, but having the Dolby volume on on top of that for a subwoofer review is just plain stupid. Stacked on top of all of that the guy doesn't apparently know how to setup a proper gain structure and boom, zero credibility from anyone that knows the hobby even moderately well. As has already been said tho, so many people don't fall into our camp here at AVS, and take these reviews at face value, and what they're taking is plain and simply misinformation to the highest degree.

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Again, I'm not going to sit here and flay someone without knowing all the facts.
Stated above kind of are the facts though unfortunately. Whether these things were done accidentally or maliciously (to promote SVS or whatever, and I am not insinuating this and certainly hope it wasn't originally the case) doesn't matter. It happened, the review is completely flawed, and the damage done. There are still more questions to say the least but we at least know the above stated facts. I don't even want to know where his sub trim level on his processor is, or god forbid he tested the subs side by side so they aren't even in the same location in his room, but both of those things are purely speculation unlike the above. I certainly hope the homeboy doesn't make money off of these silly videos...
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post #12909 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi Chucky,

Thanks for the detailed run down. I did know most of that. Or was able to make the mental leap. Where my real question was is about the connections part. I think @STL D is addressing that specifically below. I will add my follow up questions at the end. Appreciate all the Great Work and info you provide here Brother. We are lucky to have you here!!!!

Follow up question about connections from my AVR to the Sub's. I use the standard high quality Sub cable for the initial run. But then I add a splitter and connect to both RCA input jacks on the Sub in Amp. Is this technically incorrect and if so, why? I have had it this way since installing them several years ago now. Have not noticed a audible problem. However, if this config is incorrect I most certainly wish to know that, and make proper corrections! Thanks Guys, truly appreciate all the wonderful help in here.

FYI: I am engaging Cascading Crossovers and make sure my AVR Sub trim is in the Negative numbers. Current calibration set the Subs to Sub1-(-9.0) and Sub2 (-9.5). I don't use any Global Sub channel Trim boost. But I do add some gain post calibration to the Sub Amp Gain control. I add back in 3 clicks after calibration as Level Matching causes me to dial back the Sub Amp gain to stay inside the required range. Sub Amp Gains are about 11' o'clock give or take a smidgen. @mthomas47 helped me set all the trims properly, but I don't think we ever discussed how I had the Subs wired?


Hi Adam,

There is nothing inherently wrong with Y-connecting to both RCA inputs on your subs, but it is unnecessary in your case. With some AVR's, such as some of the older Yamaha's, the AVR's don't send enough voltage to the subs to turn them on automatically, unless the AVR trim levels are very high. When that is an issue, we can increase the voltage being sent to the subs, to turn them on more easily, by Y-connecting into both sub inputs on the plate amp. But, that is really the only reason for doing it, and adequate voltage is never a problem for Denon/Marantz AVR's or AVP's.

There is no particular harm in leaving your subs wired as you have them. But, if you ever decide to go back to a single input, you should rerun your Audyssey calibration, because your gain-to-trim ratio will change. If you were driving your subs harder than you are, and were concerned about your relatively low gain levels, it might be different. But, as things are, I can't see any harm in just leaving things as you have them, if you don't want to mess with running Audyssey again.

There should be no practical or audible difference with either method, as far as I know.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #12910 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:25 AM
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Here's my old theater in my previous home. I sold the s2's a while ago due to a job relocation to Charleston. I literally ordered the 118ht today from Jeff for the sale price he's currently running. Hopefully this will satisfy my bass needs until I build my dream home. LOL
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post #12911 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:33 AM
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I would also like to add, while I can't speak for everyone, most all of us would be concerned and have these same issues regardless of which sub was affected. It just happens to be the JTR. If he tested all of them with the SVS audy settings, then all of them were affected.

IF, the testing field had been fair and consistent without setup errors, let the results be what they may.

Todd

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post #12912 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:39 AM
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For general FYI. Here is what the Low Boys look like. They are deep.
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post #12913 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:40 AM
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Another fun part from that testing Youthman did.

If he had Audyssey still set from his PB16us, then that JTR was getting two separate signals entirely. Sure, the signals would be quite similar, but it's doubtful they'd have been exactly the same with delays in place based on distance.

No wonder it didn't sound right.
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post #12914 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:53 AM
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For general FYI. Here is what the Low Boys look like. They are deep.
Adam, do you have 2 front left and right speakers? One set of main left and right and then wide left and right?

Todd
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post #12915 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:55 AM
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Hi Adam,

There is nothing inherently wrong with Y-connecting to both RCA inputs on your subs, but it is unnecessary in your case. With some AVR's, such as some of the older Yamaha's, the AVR's don't send enough voltage to the subs to turn them on automatically, unless the AVR trim levels are very high. When that is an issue, we can increase the voltage being sent to the subs, to turn them on more easily, by Y-connecting into both sub inputs on the plate amp. But, that is really the only reason for doing it, and adequate voltage is never a problem for Denon/Marantz AVR's or AVP's.

There is no particular harm in leaving your subs wired as you have them. But, if you ever decide to go back to a single input, you should rerun your Audyssey calibration, because your gain-to-trim ratio will change. If you were driving your subs harder than you are, and were concerned about your relatively low gain levels, it might be different. But, as things are, I can't see any harm in just leaving things as you have them, if you don't want to mess with running Audyssey again.

There should be no practical or audible difference with either method, as far as I know.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Always good to hear from you!!! And Leaving it like it is, is EXACTLY the Right ANSWER! You know I have difficulty doing sweeps. Its hard to hold a Beer and Slice of Pizza and a Broom all at the same time.

I was worried I have had this wrong all along? I guess this was a carry over from advice I had gotten from Ed McMullen of SVS back when I first integrated my first initial real Subs the dual NST's I think they were called. That was 10 years ago!!!

Next time I must run Audyssey I will remove the Splitter. I feel better now, Back to our Regular Programming........

I will be sending you a PM shortly..... Thanks for the advice my Friend.
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post #12916 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
But, that is really the only reason for doing it, and adequate voltage is never a problem for Denon/Marantz AVR's or AVP's.
As you know, but to go into a little more detail for others, the subwoofer out on modern D+M models (as well as Onkyo and likely most others) can very easily overdrive an amp input. The only truly definitive way to test when clipping takes place is by scoping the output of the specific unit. When we tested my own Marantz 7702 (but all units should be very similar due to similar components), We found that with a worst case scenario, defined as a -0.0 dBref signal being output from all 7.1 channels, all of which are being re-directed to the sub output via the processor, and the subwoofer trim and/or MV at -10 cumulatively (Could have sub level trim at -5 and MV at -5 for instance or any variation up to 10 total dB of attenuation) that clipping became present. knocking the MV down to -10.5 and the unit passed a clean signal.

If you are immediately passing a clipped signal out of your processor from the very getgo, you can't alleviate that further into the gain structure. Couple this with the large amounts of voltage modern processors CAN pass via the sub out (in some cases into the double digit voltage numbers), when many amps only need a volt or two to achieve full amplification potential, you HAVE to get these things at least somewhat right if you plan to listen at or near reference levels. There is a common misconception that cranking the gain all the way up on your amp is a bad thing. It's not. In actuality your "Gain" knob on your amp is actually an "Attenuation" knob to be accurate. At full voltage input and the gain knob at max, your amp is outputting all that it can possibly can if called upon, as soon as you knock the gain knob down to half or 1/3, you are simply taking the hotter voltage coming into the amp and attenuating it down. Why not decrease the input voltage via the processor (or inline EQ), safeguarding you even more from any clipping in the chain and keep your gain (attenuation) knob on your amp higher? I'll answer that... You should.

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post #12917 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 12:00 PM
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Adam, do you have 2 front left and right speakers? One set of main left and right and then wide left and right?

Todd
Hi Todd,

Very observant of you! Yes, exactly. For Multichannel Music I tend to prefer running the front soundstage using the DSX Wide option. More immersive to me, I get a better sense of standing right inside the Orchestra or Band. They are the Old SVS Towers (MTS-01's).
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post #12918 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
As you know, but to go into a little more detail for others, the subwoofer out on modern D+M models (as well as Onkyo and likely most others) can very easily overdrive an amp input. The only truly definitive way to test when clipping takes place is by scoping the output of the specific unit. When we tested my own Marantz 7702 (but all units should be very similar due to similar components), We found that with a worst case scenario, defined as a -0.0 dBref signal being output from all 7.1 channels, all of which are being re-directed to the sub output via the processor, and the subwoofer trim and/or MV at -10 cumulatively (Could have sub level trim at -5 and MV at -5 for instance or any variation up to 10 total dB of attenuation) that clipping became present. knocking the MV down to -10.5 and the unit passed a clean signal.

If you are immediately passing a clipped signal out of your processor from the very getgo, you can't alleviate that further into the gain structure. Couple this with the large amounts of voltage modern processors CAN pass via the sub out (in some cases into the double digit voltage numbers), when many amps only need a volt or two to achieve full amplification potential, you HAVE to get these things at least somewhat right if you plan to listen at or near reference levels. There is a common misconception that cranking the gain all the way up on your amp is a bad thing. It's not. In actuality your "Gain" knob on your amp is actually an "Attenuation" knob to be accurate. At full voltage input and the gain knob at max, your amp is outputting all that it can possibly can if called upon, as soon as you knock the gain knob down to half or 1/3, you are simply taking the hotter voltage coming into the amp and attenuating it down. Why not decrease the input voltage via the processor (or inline EQ), safeguarding you even more from any clipping in the chain and keep your gain (attenuation) knob on your amp higher? I'll answer that... You should.
Hi Beast,

I'm going to need to run that through a translator!

Bottom line takeaway is I believe you recommend I remove the Splitter and rerun Audyssey and gain trims for AVR and the each Sub. Is that the gest of it ?

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post #12919 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 12:21 PM
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Hi Beast,

I'm going to need to run that through a translator!

Bottom line takeaway is I believe you recommend I remove the Splitter and rerun Audyssey and gain trims for AVR and the each Sub. Is that the gest of it ?
I don't believe where your settings currently are that you are hurting anything...but, if'n when you get the time, it wouldn't hurt to remove it and re-run. Audyssey is very fickle however with some runs being good and others not so much so if you are truly happy with how things sound and you aren't getting any bad noises from your sub, then I'd be very hesitant to change anything to be quite honest.

If you have further questions on my previous post, I am happy to answer them.
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post #12920 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 01:04 PM
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Not sure how a JTR sub with a chuffing or driver issue triggered your thinly veiled attacks on PSA, but I guess if that's the axe you wanna grind...
Meh...The same shat all over the V1801 at a GTG for chuffing while playing the EOT opening , which its size and tune is clearly not meant to handle with absolutely no measuring equipment....But let someone screw up to make a JTR chuff...Lol... BRING OUT THE PITCHFORKS FOR YOUTHMAN!!!
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post #12921 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 01:09 PM
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I was not able to make a buy decision on dual 118HT's until there was only 1 left, but I could spend more and pick up dual 1400's, or dual Rythmik FV18 paper cone versions (which have +3db more output from 50hz on up compared to the metal cone tested at data-bass).

Does anyone know the sound quality differences between 1400 and 118HT? I have read more than one forum member saying the 118HT is a little cleaner and better on music than other JTR models.

I'm spoiled to ultra clean, detailed, nuanced bass from my current Rythmiks and before that Seaton Submersive, but my smaller sealed rooms of the past have now become a 5500cf basement on concrete slab so I think the time is right to go with a couple of big ported units. I'm 100% movies but I do value excellent reproduction of the soundtrack music just as much as explosions, gunshots, and other bass effects. I enjoy good action movies but also watch a lot of dramas and dialogue/music driven films.

Thanks,
Ross

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SOURCE: Oppo BDP-103D multi-region
SPEAKERS: Chane A5.4, A1.4, Rythmik L22 x 4 (dual FV18 on order!)
DISPLAY: Sony 45ES, 175" Silver Ticket screen

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post #12922 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Who's theater is this? I absolutely love that false wall where you have a bunch of space back there rather than trying to do the baffle and dealing with finding low profile everything. Is there an acoustic disadvantage to doing it one way or another?
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post #12923 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
I was not able to make a buy decision on dual 118HT's until there was only 1 left, but I could spend more and pick up dual 1400's, or dual Rythmik FV18 paper cone versions (which have +3db more output from 50hz on up compared to the metal cone tested at data-bass).

Does anyone know the sound quality differences between 1400 and 118HT? I have read more than one forum member saying the 118HT is a little cleaner and better on music than other JTR models.

I'm spoiled to ultra clean, detailed, nuanced bass from my current Rythmiks and before that Seaton Submersive, but my smaller sealed rooms of the past have now become a 5500cf basement on concrete slab so I think the time is right to go with a couple of big ported units. I'm 100% movies but I do value excellent reproduction of the soundtrack music just as much as explosions, gunshots, and other bass effects. I enjoy good action movies but also watch a lot of dramas and dialogue/music driven films.

Thanks,
Ross
Shooting a quick thought on your direction which isn't so clear cut imo. Both the 118HT and the FV18 are awesome subs. Great performers for music and HT. You have a pretty big space and on concrete but not sure if you are sealed or open. If you like some good TR for movies like I do, I would give the slight edge to the 118HT. It technically doesn't dig as deep as the FV18 but it feels like it does. I listened to the 20hz tuned but I believe its down to 18 or so. But as you're already a Rythmik owner and you like their sound, the FV18 is a no brainer too. I can tell you the 118HT is hella fun for movies. For your space and being on concrete, but still staying in the JTR line, you might consider the 2400 and/or the 2400ulf. This is a good step up in price though.

Todd
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post #12924 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 02:34 PM
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Who's theater is this? I absolutely love that false wall where you have a bunch of space back there rather than trying to do the baffle and dealing with finding low profile everything. Is there an acoustic disadvantage to doing it one way or another?
That's @SOWK theater. He's made quite a few changes since then, even adding baffle boxes with insulation behind the speakers. The theory is that speakers further away from the walls have a larger sound stage. I've been fortunate enough to hear his theater and it sounds absolutely amazing!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...ter-build.html
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post #12925 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by feistyacorn View Post
That's @SOWK theater. He's made quite a few changes since then, even adding baffle boxes with insulation behind the speakers. The theory is that speakers further away from the walls have a larger sound stage. I've been fortunate enough to hear his theater and it sounds absolutely amazing!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...ter-build.html
Thanks, looks like I have some reading to do!
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post #12926 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
I was not able to make a buy decision on dual 118HT's until there was only 1 left, but I could spend more and pick up dual 1400's, or dual Rythmik FV18 paper cone versions (which have +3db more output from 50hz on up compared to the metal cone tested at data-bass).

Does anyone know the sound quality differences between 1400 and 118HT? I have read more than one forum member saying the 118HT is a little cleaner and better on music than other JTR models.

I'm spoiled to ultra clean, detailed, nuanced bass from my current Rythmiks and before that Seaton Submersive, but my smaller sealed rooms of the past have now become a 5500cf basement on concrete slab so I think the time is right to go with a couple of big ported units. I'm 100% movies but I do value excellent reproduction of the soundtrack music just as much as explosions, gunshots, and other bass effects. I enjoy good action movies but also watch a lot of dramas and dialogue/music driven films.

Thanks,
Ross

Hi,

I liked Todd's answer, and I would like to try to add to it a little bit. I think that for <20Hz frequencies, dual Cap 118HT's would have been a little bit under-powered in a 5500^3 room. Dual Cap 1400's would be better for your specific application, in my opinion, and the lower-tuned Cap 2400's would probably be better yet.

With a few exceptions, I believe that most movie viewers are going to be able to get sufficient mid-bass SPL from a number of different subwoofers. But, getting enough <20Hz SPL in a large room, and especially on concrete which attenuates low-bass TR (tactile response), is anther matter. So, I think the bigger the better, in that respect.

But, that brings up another choice. The Cap 1400 and Cap 2400 models will produce a lot of low-bass SPL and TR. I believe that most people would agree, that compared to Rythmik subs, they have a slightly richer/heavier sound signature, where the Rythmik ported subs excel at clarity. I don't know that everyone would be able to make those same distinctions, or use the same descriptions, but I think that's a reasonably fair generalization.

If you are accustomed to the sound signature of your current Rythmik subs, and you like that sound signature, then staying within the same subwoofer family might make sense. And, the FV18's, with the paper cones would be a good choice. If you are interested in more low-frequency oomph, and more emphatic low-bass TR, then one of the bigger JTR models would probably be better (Cap 1400 or 2400).

If the distinctions I made are valid to start with, then it's really not a choice that anyone but you can make.

Regards,
Mike

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post #12927 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 03:18 PM
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@toddct and @mthomas47 , thanks for your input, I appreciate the help in thinking it all through.

When I last had ported subs a decade ago, dual SVS PB13 Ultras on a suspended wood floor was a lot of fun for demos of the big bass scenes on blu-ray action flicks, but the house-shaking effect that went through the rest of the home wasn't appreciated by my wife, nor my neighbors. When I switched to sealed with a Seaton Submersive, I was immediately in love with the refined accurate sound that brought out texture and nuance even in special effects bass, with a much improved midbass impact and dynamics compared to the Ultras, and the annoying rattling of the downstairs kitchen and neighbor's windows was gone. I've stayed with sealed subs since, but now that I am in a much larger space on concrete I know the big ported subs will help bring more of the movie excitement.

On the one hand I am curious what the increased weight and TR of the JTR's would sound like (I know I am missing something with my current sealed subs in this room), and yet on the other hand I'm concerned that when the honeymoon period is over I would be missing the articulate clean sound I've become used to, to say nothing of the increased likelihood of the JTR's disturbing my wife and possibly neighbors based on the dozens or hundreds of comments I've read. I guess I need to stay with the 'safer' choice at this point based on my history and needs.

Thanks,
Ross
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post #12928 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post
I was not able to make a buy decision on dual 118HT's until there was only 1 left, but I could spend more and pick up dual 1400's, or dual Rythmik FV18 paper cone versions (which have +3db more output from 50hz on up compared to the metal cone tested at data-bass).

Does anyone know the sound quality differences between 1400 and 118HT? I have read more than one forum member saying the 118HT is a little cleaner and better on music than other JTR models.

I'm spoiled to ultra clean, detailed, nuanced bass from my current Rythmiks and before that Seaton Submersive, but my smaller sealed rooms of the past have now become a 5500cf basement on concrete slab so I think the time is right to go with a couple of big ported units. I'm 100% movies but I do value excellent reproduction of the soundtrack music just as much as explosions, gunshots, and other bass effects. I enjoy good action movies but also watch a lot of dramas and dialogue/music driven films.

Thanks,
Ross
I don't think Jeff still has the Cap 1400... But of course please ask him.

I heard the 2015 Cap 1400 vs the 2017 118HT. The 1400 has a fuller sound, and more TR. However, the user can easily adjust the LF Adjust to shape the sound completely from gentle (Is the sub on?) to holy S-H-I-T...

Back in 2011~2013, there were shoot outs in large basement on concrete slab featuring a Cap 2400 (earlier Cap 1400) and the Seaton Submersive. The subs were calibrated, level matched and EQed under blind tests. The listeners couldn't tell the 2 subs apart. The Submersive was #1 for music, and #2 for movies. The Cap 2400 was #2 for music and #1 for movies.
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
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post #12929 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 03:32 PM
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Ross,

You sound like the perfect candidate for some TR devices! Crowsons, BOSS, Buttkickers....check this thread for some ideas: The Tactile Response Thread for BASS
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post #12930 of 13682 Old 08-16-2019, 05:00 PM
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Any JTR sub (2400/2400ULF/4000ULF) owner living near central NY here?
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