Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 450 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13471 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by psyduck103 View Post
If you are having triac induced noise from a Home Depot typical dimmer especially using led bulbs get one of these .Only a autotransformer is better....
Yes, part of the key to verify the dimmer has been tested to work with the target lighting. As I mentioned, using LEDs with "any old dimmer" is a sure way to generate more/intense electrical noise. Some LEDS are not designed to be dimmable by "any old dimmer" and some are designed better than others.

One key thing to watch out for is whether they dimmer requires a white/neutral to operate. If it does NOT, then than's a big red flag right there b/c its dumping all that noise into the hot for sure.

See these as options too -> https://www.homedepot.com/s/pd-5ne-wh?NCNI-5

The other thing I recommend is using only good quality LED lighting from well known manufacturers. I've tested and only use CREE, GE/Philips and OSRAM/SYLVANIA LED bulbs and fixtures in my home. They have known good electrical noise suppression. The $.99 China specials often omit those critical noise suppression elements to reduce costs.

Peace.
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post #13472 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by gattaca View Post
Yes, part of the key to verify the dimmer has been tested to work with the target lighting. As I mentioned, using LEDs with "any old dimmer" is a sure way to generate more/intense electrical noise. Some LEDS are not designed to be dimmable by "any old dimmer" and some are designed better than others.



One key thing to watch out for is whether they dimmer requires a white/neutral to operate. If it does NOT, then than's a big red flag right there b/c its dumping all that noise into the hot for sure.



See these as options too -> https://www.homedepot.com/s/pd-5ne-wh?NCNI-5



The other thing I recommend is using only good quality LED lighting from well known manufacturers. I've tested and only use CREE, GE/Philips and OSRAM/SYLVANIA LED bulbs and fixtures in my home. They have known good electrical noise suppression. The $.99 China specials often omit those critical noise suppression elements to reduce costs.



Peace.


The dimmer I had on there was a decently expensive Lutron. I didn’t see a neutral/white wire attached though.

Regardless, when I swapped it out it for a regular paddle it didn’t change anything. Still same level of hum/buzz.

Hmmmm. That means there’s no neutral in the new switch either then.
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post #13473 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 10:37 AM
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^^^^ Correct. Lutron, Leviton, are better brands but they also make "no neutral" dimmers for convenience in older homes. The example I linked shows an ELV model with a neutral required for operation. In the instructions they show a table of the different loads they support. In general, dimmers with ELV support and neutrals required are an indicator of a better unit but its not a sure thing. The only way to know is find their circuits and or technical details on their sites or test it.

Some manufacturers also list LED bulbs they have validated. I know this seems crazy but the process of elimination is the best way I know to find the biggest offenders. Do not overlook anything, right down to these LED night lights. Anything with a SMPS (switching mode power supply), wall warts (especially the very light-weight ones b/c that means it's a SMPS and not a transformer) is app to dump noise into the lines with PCs/computers, laptops and UPSes being especially horrible electrical noise producers.

Its' pretty common for an electrician to power the room's outlets and overhead lighting from the same circuit unless you direct them otherwise. Using direct home-run 15-20A drops which run directly from the mains panel to the AV equipment ONLY is the best method to reduce noise injected from dimmers etc.. but it's also no guarantee.

This Mid-Atlantic design document may prove helpful -> https://www.middleatlantic.com/-/med...ack.ashx?la=en

Peace.

Last edited by gattaca; 10-21-2019 at 02:03 PM.
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post #13474 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
I swapped the dimmer out for a paddle - no change. I've heard of people grounding their Denon/Marantz....but I'm not sure where to start there. LOL. I think the PC does something as well - what model Furman Elite did you get? I have a Furman Elite 20 PFi. The unit itself buzzes, so perhaps that's part of it.
I don't know how to do ground properly yet. It would be from the ground prong to the denon chassis and hopefully it won't make a ground loop with the projector, but I think it still can because there is infact a physical loop via the HDMI cable.

I also tried plugging into another circuit, and turning off breakers with dimmers, it is the same.

I got the furman elite 15 DMi (without the capacitor) I think they are all very similar, 15 or 20 amps.

All I know is that the furman make the buzz in the speaker more raspy and noticable..
Compared to my panamax, or plugging into the wall. This morning I put everything into the wall again and there is a mild buzz worse than what I reported last night. I plugged these things into the furman.. (only 3 things, denon,amp,projector). The buzz volume is very noticably louder out of the furman.

I wanted to keep the furman seems very nice, but the noise it causes is too much. I then put it all back on the panamax and it's tolerable. The furman just put it past my threshold.
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post #13475 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 12:36 PM
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Hey fellow JTR enthusiasts! I'm hosting a GTG in the Madison Wisconsin area this Saturday the 26th. Jeff will be showcasing his new RS1 subs!!! Please send me a PM if you would like to come, it should be a great time!


Equipment list below and behind the screen picture attached.

150” Seymour XD 16x9 Screen
Sony 45ES - Calibrated by @SirMaster and @SOWK
Anthem MRX510
Parasound A51
JTR RS1 x2
Paradigm Studio v5 mains
Mac Mini HTPC
Synology NAS - 40TB for Plex
Aura Bass Shakers
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post #13476 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by feistyacorn View Post
Hey fellow JTR enthusiasts! I'm hosting a GTG in the Madison Wisconsin area this Saturday the 26th. Jeff will be showcasing his new RS1 subs!!! Please send me a PM if you would like to come, it should be a great time!





Equipment list below and behind the screen picture attached.



150” Seymour XD 16x9 Screen

Sony 45ES - Calibrated by @SirMaster and @SOWK

Anthem MRX510

Parasound A51

JTR RS1 x2

Paradigm Studio v5 mains

Mac Mini HTPC

Synology NAS - 40TB for Plex

Aura Bass Shakers


Good looking setup!
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post #13477 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by gattaca View Post
^^^^ Correct. Lutron, Leviton, are better brands but they also make "no neutral" dimmers for convenience in older homes. The example I linked shows an ELV model with a neutral required for operation. In the instructions they show a table of the different loads they support. In general, dimmers with ELV support and neutrals required are an indicator of a better unit but its not a sure thing. The only way to know is find their circuits and or technical details on their sites or test it.

Some manufacturers also list LED bulbs they have validated. I know this seems crazy but the process of elimination is the best way I know to find the biggest offenders. Do not overlook anything, right down to these LED night lights. Anything with a SMPS (switching mode power supply), wall warts (especially the very light-weight ones b/c that means it's a SMPS and not a transformer) is app to dump noise into the lines with PCs/computers, laptops and UPSes being especially horrible electrical noise producers.

Its' pretty common for an electrician to power the room's outlets and overhead lighting from the same circuit unless you direct them otherwise. Using direct home-run 15-20A drops which run directly from the mains panel to the AV equipment ONLY is the best method to reduce noise injected from dimmers etc.. but it's also no guarantee.

Rading thru this guide may prove helpful -> https://www.middleatlantic.com/-/med...ack.ashx?la=en

Peace.
I directed them otherwise when building the house.

The lights run on their own 15amp circuit - and the other two 20 amp circuits (in their own sub panel) run the rest of the room. It's all split off from each other. I have a couple of things to try tonight to see how it goes. I'll let you all know!
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post #13478 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
Good looking setup!
Thank you! I'm pretty excited to show the improvements I've made since my last GTG a year ago. DIY acoustic panels, bigger screen and a serious improvement with the RS1 subs! That's why I think these GTGs are so fun, you get to chat with other enthusiasts, see cool new equipment and improvements that people are able to make over time.
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post #13479 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 02:08 PM
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i only have 3 18 inchers ...
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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik F18SEs - SB13 Ultra
Speakers: 2xJTR Noesis 212RT 1 210RM - SVS Ultra Surrounds - KEF LS50W
Audio:McIntosh C2600 Pre - Marantz SR-8012 -Dual McIntosh 601's- McIntosh MT5 - GoldNotePH10 - Oppo UDP-205 - Panamax M5300PMx2 - Apple TV 4k - BlueSound Node 2
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post #13480 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 02:23 PM
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post #13481 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by feistyacorn View Post
Thank you! I'm pretty excited to show the improvements I've made since my last GTG a year ago. DIY acoustic panels, bigger screen and a serious improvement with the RS1 subs! That's why I think these GTGs are so fun, you get to chat with other enthusiasts, see cool new equipment and improvements that people are able to make over time.
I'm really looking forward to going to one, some day.
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I don't know how to do ground properly yet. It would be from the ground prong to the denon chassis and hopefully it won't make a ground loop with the projector, but I think it still can because there is infact a physical loop via the HDMI cable.



I also tried plugging into another circuit, and turning off breakers with dimmers, it is the same.



I got the furman elite 15 DMi (without the capacitor) I think they are all very similar, 15 or 20 amps.



All I know is that the furman make the buzz in the speaker more raspy and noticable..

Compared to my panamax, or plugging into the wall. This morning I put everything into the wall again and there is a mild buzz worse than what I reported last night. I plugged these things into the furman.. (only 3 things, denon,amp,projector). The buzz volume is very noticably louder out of the furman.



I wanted to keep the furman seems very nice, but the noise it causes is too much. I then put it all back on the panamax and it's tolerable. The furman just put it past my threshold.


I grounded my Marantz AV8805 by taking a 3-prong electrical cord and cutting off the IEC connector, then exposing only the green ground wire, then stripping enough insulation to allow the bare wire to be attached to a chassis screw. Plug the untouched 3-prong plug into an outlet.

Mark


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post #13483 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I grounded my Marantz AV8805 by taking a 3-prong electrical cord and cutting off the IEC connector, then exposing only the green ground wire, then stripping enough insulation to allow the bare wire to be attached to a chassis screw. Plug the untouched 3-prong plug into an outlet.

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Got any pics? This is an interesting idea. Where on the chassis?
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post #13484 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 04:42 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
Got any pics? This is an interesting idea. Where on the chassis?


I would’ve sent one earlier but I was on the train. Here is the overview:



A close-up of the cut end. I used to have a piece of electrical tape over those two conductors but it fell off; I should probably put some shrink tubing on that:



Here is the end plugged into the power strip that I used to turn on the fan and sits on top of the unit. The power cord says 4311 CI because that was my previous device and I used the same ground screw set up.



This balanced technical power sub panel with isolated ground may also help my system stay quiet I’m not sure. This is totally overkill but when I built the theater I had money to burn and not a whole lot of sense how to spend it. the CD is for scale:




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post #13485 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I would’ve sent one earlier but I was on the train. Here is the overview:



A close-up of the cut end. I used to have a piece of electrical tape over those two conductors but it fell off; I should probably put some shrink tubing on that:



Here is the end plugged into the power strip that I used to turn on the fan and sits on top of the unit. The power cord says 4311 CI because that was my previous device and I used the same ground screw set up.



This balanced technical power sub panel with isolated ground may also help my system stay quiet I’m not sure. This is totally overkill but when I built the theater I had money to burn and not a whole lot of sense how to spend it. the CD is for scale:




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Overkill is all I know. I just cut off the end of a cord and I'm about to try this in a bit. This is a great idea! I'm going to use wire nuts on the non-used wires.
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post #13486 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post

A close-up of the cut end. I used to have a piece of electrical tape over those two conductors but it fell off; I should probably put some shrink tubing on that:

Yes, you should shrink wrap it ASAP. The hot wire is live and will shock whatever it comes into contact with. You would be much better off just using a single ground wire to a DIY plug, or using that cable with a DIY plug and not connecting the neutral or hot to the DIY plug.
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post #13487 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 05:44 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Yes, you should shrink wrap it ASAP. The hot wire is live and will shock whatever it comes into contact with. You would be much better off just using a single ground wire to a DIY plug, or using that cable with a DIY plug and not connecting the neutral or hot to the DIY plug.


Good point. I have a DIY plug I can use.

Edit: Done


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Last edited by giomania; 10-21-2019 at 07:01 PM.
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post #13488 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 05:54 PM
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^^^ Ditto - pronto!

Wow, that's a *@(@* nice setup with the EQT balanced power cabinet!!!

As I recall, on most AV equipment I have seen, when the equipment uses a 2 prong power plug, then nothing internally is electrically connected to the chassis. When the AV unit uses a 3 prong (grounded) plug then the green/ground is already connected to the chassis. IDK what the Marantz uses. The benefit to grounding the metal case would be from outside-the-case interference such as RF or EMI.

WRT to the power switching unit above, those "smart power strips" (That looks like an older BITS unit) have MOVs and internals which may contribute to ground loops. My gut says something like a Niles AC3 which uses a 12V trigger (from your AV) uses an isolated relay to switch the power the fans.
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Last edited by gattaca; 10-21-2019 at 06:11 PM.
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post #13489 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 07:05 PM
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Good point. I have a DIY plug I can use.

Edit: Done


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What is a DIY plug?
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post #13490 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I would’ve sent one earlier but I was on the train. Here is the overview:



A close-up of the cut end. I used to have a piece of electrical tape over those two conductors but it fell off; I should probably put some shrink tubing on that:



Here is the end plugged into the power strip that I used to turn on the fan and sits on top of the unit. The power cord says 4311 CI because that was my previous device and I used the same ground screw set up.



This balanced technical power sub panel with isolated ground may also help my system stay quiet I’m not sure. This is totally overkill but when I built the theater I had money to burn and not a whole lot of sense how to spend it. the CD is for scale:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Did this get rid of any noise for you?

Mine has ground point on your premap for hooking up the phono, do you have one?
I wonder if this is different from using the screw on the chassis like you did?
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post #13491 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gattaca View Post
^^^ Ditto - pronto!



Wow, that's a *@(@* nice setup with the EQT balanced power cabinet!!!



As I recall, on most AV equipment I have seen, when the equipment uses a 2 prong power plug, then nothing internally is electrically connected to the chassis. When the AV unit uses a 3 prong (grounded) plug then the green/ground is already connected to the chassis. IDK what the Marantz uses. The benefit to grounding the metal case would be from outside-the-case interference such as RF or EMI.



WRT to the power switching unit above, those "smart power strips" (That looks like an older BITS unit) have MOVs and internals which may contribute to ground loops. My gut says something like a Niles AC3 which uses a 12V trigger (from your AV) uses an isolated relay to switch the power the fans.


Thanks for the compliment. Good idea on using something better for the fan. I have something similar to the Niles AC3 from Digital Loggers and I am using two of them to turn on my subs. I have an extra one I can use for the fan. How do you think the design looks from the noise / ground loop perspective?

Iot Relay - Enclosed High-Power Power Relay for Arduino, Raspberry Pi, PIC or WiFi, Relay Shield https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WV7GMA2..._nELRDbXW24DSK

Mark



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post #13492 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 07:24 PM
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What is a DIY plug?


It’s just a plug that you can wire yourself it is not molded like factory-made AC power cords.



Another plug used for my serious DIY power cables:



I hope this helps.

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post #13493 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 07:29 PM
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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

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Originally Posted by PoorSignal View Post
Did this get rid of any noise for you?



Mine has ground point on your premap for hooking up the phono, do you have one?

I wonder if this is different from using the screw on the chassis like you did?


I have never had any noise problems, unless you call the slight hiss from those very efficient JTR speakers.

I just installed the ground wire years ago to tie it into my balanced power sub panel isolated ground system.

The Marantz does have a phono ground. I’m not sure if there’s a difference between the case screw that I used and the phono ground.

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post #13494 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I have never had any noise problems, unless you call the slight hiss from those very efficient JTR speakers.

I just installed the ground wire years ago to tie it into my balanced power sub panel isolated ground system.

The Marantz does have a phono ground. I’m not sure if there’s a difference between the case screw that I used and the phono ground.

Mark


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hey where did you get the balanced power panel from.

is a new ground rod needed?
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post #13495 of 13681 Old 10-21-2019, 09:15 PM
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hey ScottieBoysName, just messing around tonight, I had a travel adapter which basically has no ground, so same as a cheater plug. I plugged in my projector with it.
There was zero noise from the speakers.
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post #13496 of 13681 Old 10-22-2019, 04:02 AM
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^^^ Super, then you found the source of your ground loop!

Gut says, it maybe has a marginal SMPS (switching power-supply) that is leaking/dumping gobs of electrical noise to ground and/or it is setting up a huge ground loop from projector to your AV/Preamp/AVR. Think the longer the cables, the worse the ground loops can be.... I would still try to determine if there's is a filter with ground that works in your case b/c keeping the case grounded was intended by the designers.

See some of the links I posted earlier. Also search around on AVS, I know there are power and ground-loop discussions around here... I just gotta get work and don't have time to search more. Cheers.

Last edited by gattaca; 10-22-2019 at 04:18 AM.
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post #13497 of 13681 Old 10-22-2019, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PoorSignal View Post
hey where did you get the balanced power panel from.

is a new ground rod needed?
I'd know that panel anywhere! it's an awesome equitech complete with breakers! very nice! -> https://www.equitech.com/

Typically, in most installations a single-point ground is best / recommended. Everyone thinks the earth is a giant grounding plane but each connection sets up the possibility of creating ground loops within the system. Google around...

I recall there being some discussion a while back about "balanced power" panels being mainly for businesses and not being allowed by the US National Electrical Codes in residential homes. So typically these are installed in recording studios, and other places of business.

To get balanced power at an AV setup, something like their standalone units or a Furman "IT Reference" model are candidates. Both have huge toridal transformers inside that are the meat of that operation. These will weigh 100+ lbs. The Furmans appear on ebay quite often. As I recall, many of these models require a dedicated home-run 20A circuit b/c they pull some real AMPS to drive that transformer in a 1:1 mode. A professional installation by a licensed electrician is always advised.
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post #13498 of 13681 Old 10-22-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by gattaca View Post
I'd know that panel anywhere! it's an awesome equitech complete with breakers! very nice! -> https://www.equitech.com/



Typically, in most installations a single-point ground is best / recommended. Everyone thinks the earth is a giant grounding plane but each connection sets up the possibility of creating ground loops within the system. Google around...



I recall there being some discussion a while back about "balanced power" panels being mainly for businesses and not being allowed by the US National Electrical Codes in residential homes. So typically these are installed in recording studios, and other places of business.



To get balanced power at an AV setup, something like their standalone units or a Furman "IT Reference" model are candidates. Both have huge toridal transformers inside that are the meat of that operation. These will weigh 100+ lbs. The Furmans appear on ebay quite often. As I recall, many of these models require a dedicated home-run 20A circuit b/c they pull some real AMPS to drive that transformer in a 1:1 mode. A professional installation by a licensed electrician is always advised.


I installed two extra ground rods for the EquiTech sub-panel, but they were also tied to the existing electrical ground rod. I followed the instructions and /or other guidance I found at the time.

I agree this is totally un-necessary and is designed for commercial installations. I did not pull a permit when I finished my basement, so don’t try this at home, kids!


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post #13499 of 13681 Old 10-22-2019, 05:53 AM
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It’s just a plug that you can wire yourself it is not molded like factory-made AC power cords.



Another plug used for my serious DIY power cables:



I hope this helps.

Mark


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It does! Where did you get the parts for this? I feel like Home Depot might be a good start?

Last edited by ScottieBoysName; 10-22-2019 at 06:30 AM.
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post #13500 of 13681 Old 10-22-2019, 05:55 AM
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hey ScottieBoysName, just messing around tonight, I had a travel adapter which basically has no ground, so same as a cheater plug. I plugged in my projector with it.

There was zero noise from the speakers.


What’s the drawback of doing this with your projector? Not having it connected to the safety ground.
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