Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 501 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15001 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 01:52 PM
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Here is my experience from mixing different port tunes. if you run room eq with the 4000 and the v1801s, your lower end extension will be less than just running room eq off just a 4000. I would run room eq with just the 4000 alone and add the v1801s in after to maintain the lowest possible extension.
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post #15002 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Here is my experience from mixing different port tunes. if you run room eq with the 4000 and the v1801s, your lower end extension will be less than just running room eq off just a 4000. I would run room eq with just the 4000 alone and add the v1801s in after to maintain the lowest possible extension.
I think a lot of it is room dependent. I have had best results integrating all of the subs together using a MiniDSP (EQ, Time Align, etc) first and then presenting them to the AVR for room correction as one sub.

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post #15003 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 02:45 PM
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^^ Yeah, he has a couple options to try there.
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post #15004 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
Will using Channel 4 instead of Channel 3 result in achieving higher SPL levels, or does it just affect how the relative levels?
In most processors and receivers, the subwoofer output channel (channel 4), will have an opamp in the output circuit that increases the level +10 dB. This channel is therefore capable of higher output voltage. Depending on ones setup and input sensitivity of the subwoofer amplifier, one could get higher SPL level from channel 4.

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post #15005 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 05:16 PM
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Received a replacement woofer from Jeff and swapped it out last Saturday. Ran low volume sweeps on the new sub with the new driver and the other sub as well as test tones and they both sounded the same with no strange low hz rattles. Jeff offered to send another woofer but I said I didn't think I needed one. Great service!

Also did notice some inherent chuffing in the 10-12hz range on both subs and it also appears that the tune on these Cap 2400s is actually 12hz, not 10hz. Tested this by running tones from 10hz to 20hz. The woofer doesn't move at 12hz but does extrude at 10 and 11hz. Not a big deal but seems to be the case.

I reran Audyssey and the lowest I could get them to produce without bottoming at -12 was at 9am on both which gave me -8.5 and -7db of sub trim. I then increased the sub trim 2db to -6.5 and -5db and set the gain on the subs to 11am on both one click from 12pm. I reran my sweeps at -20mv and the result was almost EXACTLY THE SAME as when I had them barely at -12db On both increased to -6db on both with the gain on one at 10am and the other at 11am.

Long story short, I don't think I was overdriving them and that the one defective sub was a fluke. Now I don't need to continue to be scared to crank these up!
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post #15006 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Received a replacement woofer from Jeff and swapped it out last Saturday. Ran low volume sweeps on the new sub with the new driver and the other sub as well as test tones and they both sounded the same with no strange low hz rattles. Jeff offered to send another woofer but I said I didn't think I needed one. Great service!

Also did notice some inherent chuffing in the 10-12hz range on both subs and it also appears that the tune on these Cap 2400s is actually 12hz, not 10hz. Tested this by running tones from 10hz to 20hz. The woofer doesn't move at 12hz but does extrude at 10 and 11hz. Not a big deal but seems to be the case.

I reran Audyssey and the lowest I could get them to produce without bottoming at -12 was at 9am on both which gave me -8.5 and -7db of sub trim. I then increased the sub trim 2db to -6.5 and -5db and set the gain on the subs to 11am on both one click from 12pm. I reran my sweeps at -20mv and the result was almost EXACTLY THE SAME as when I had them barely at -12db On both increased to -6db on both with the gain on one at 10am and the other at 11am.

Long story short, I don't think I was overdriving them and that the one defective sub was a fluke. Now I don't need to continue to be scared to crank these up!

Great news! Thanks for posting the resolution.


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post #15007 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dutch-boy View Post
Thanks so much for sharing serith. I am just so afraid that I will feel it from behind...I know, I know...Bass is not directional, maybe it is a bias I can't overcome.

Maybe I did not have minidsp or crossovers set right last time I tried it also. I just have the perfect place for that bad boy and I wonder (hoped) it would work. I mean, according to "the man" (O'Toole) center wall is good with multiple so I was wondering about single. I really like the balance of my setup now with two V18's in front and 3601 in back but the 2400's are just too big for me to put up front and keep the screen at the height I like it to be...oh yeah, and the price lol

I find that bass can be directional. I can definitely feel the missing bass coming from my side wall area when I turn off my two RS2. Whether that is pressure, vibration of my floor or a combination I am not sure. I had an acoustic engineer design the room and he insisted the best set up for my room was a sub in the center front and a sub in the center rear. I was going to do away with my subs on the side wall but (Seatons Before my Dual RS2 purchase) when I turned them off the bass did not fill the entire space nearly as evenly.


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post #15008 of 15276 Old 05-13-2020, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post

Also did notice some inherent chuffing in the 10-12hz range on both subs and it also appears that the tune on these Cap 2400s is actually 12hz, not 10hz. Tested this by running tones from 10hz to 20hz. The woofer doesn't move at 12hz but does extrude at 10 and 11hz. Not a big deal but seems to be the case.
That seems inconsistent with the numbers on data-bass for the 2400...

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post #15009 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 03:56 AM
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Thanks so much tvoung and chucks0.
It is very nice to know that it is possible to get good result with a little work.
I really like the combination of size/sound of the v1811's.

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post #15010 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
That seems inconsistent with the numbers on data-bass for the 2400...
I do not know if the test I performed means conclusively that the tune is at 12hz, I'm only stating what I witnessed as an actual owner of two of these Cap 2400 subwoofers.

Would be curious to see what other actual owners here witness by running a tone at a low volume of say -25mv, with noEq at 10-15hz. Tell me which frequency it vibrates the least at.

https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

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post #15011 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
The biggest issue with mixing ported with sealed or ported subs with different tunes is that you can end up with cancellations where the subs are out of phase. Although a little more effort is required to get everything dialed in, using REW to measure the subs and get them all time-aligned, you can end up with a really good result. I know @basshead81 has mixed PSA subs with a 20'ish tune with a JTR sub with a 10 hz tune with good success. Lots of the DIY guys are mixing ported with sealed and even using horns with sealed and all kinds of exotic setups.


I mixed two Cap 4000ULFs with four sealed Seaton SubMersives in my room. I used the Multi-sub Optimizer software to accomplish this, and the results were great.

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post #15012 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 05:35 AM
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I mixed two Cap 4000ULFs with four sealed Seaton SubMersives in my room. I used the Multi-sub Optimizer software to accomplish this, and the results were great.

Mark


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I downloaded the MSO a while back but never got around to doing the measurements to use it. It sounds like it could be very useful to test a bunch of different sub locations virtually to figure out the optimum locations.

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post #15013 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
I downloaded the MSO a while back but never got around to doing the measurements to use it. It sounds like it could be very useful to test a bunch of different sub locations virtually to figure out the optimum locations.


Not sure it works that way, based on my experience, but you could always ask in the dedicated thread.


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post #15014 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Here is my experience from mixing different port tunes. if you run room eq with the 4000 and the v1801s, your lower end extension will be less than just running room eq off just a 4000. I would run room eq with just the 4000 alone and add the v1801s in after to maintain the lowest possible extension.
I have measured both the JTR 1200xs(10hz tune) and PSA 15v's(18-19hz tune) together and separate...either way the +/ -3db point still remains 12.5hz with or without the PSA's. Without the JTR it moves up to 16.5hz. The -3db point is above port tune on the JTR because it has a HPF placed around 12-13hz where normally the -3db would be a couple hz below port tune on most ported subs.
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post #15015 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I have measured both the JTR 1200xs(10hz tune) and PSA 15v's(18-19hz tune) together and separate...either way the +/ -3db point still remains 12.5hz with or without the PSA's. Without the JTR it moves up to 16.5hz. The -3db point is above port tune on the JTR because it has a HPF placed around 12-13hz where normally the -3db would be a couple hz below port tune on most ported subs.
I guess in the midbass the PSA should sum more dB?
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post #15016 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 09:18 AM
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I have measured both the JTR 1200xs(10hz tune) and PSA 15v's(18-19hz tune) together and separate...either way the +/ -3db point still remains 12.5hz with or without the PSA's. Without the JTR it moves up to 16.5hz. The -3db point is above port tune on the JTR because it has a HPF placed around 12-13hz where normally the -3db would be a couple hz below port tune on most ported subs.
Good to know. In my case I have the 12Hz tuned main subs and 55ish hz MBMs and there were differences in extension running Audyssey with main subs alone versus main subs + MBMs.
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post #15017 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by juanchibiris View Post
I guess in the midbass the PSA should sum more dB?

For reference I have 3 PSA XV15 Ice/SE subs and 1 JTR1200xs. Each subs was level matched to 76db, amp gains 9:00, RC/LF adjust set mid. Post calibration came back -10/-11 on the amp gains.

The way I have my subs placed the JTR lifts the response below 30hz, has a big null around 34hz, and a roll off in response above 40hz. The PSA are nice and smooth in the 40-80hz, big 12db peak in the 34hz area and roll off below 30hz. So the combination equals a nice smooth rising response(+6db) from 80-12hz. The PSA are better in the mid bass and the JTR is better below 30hz. Honestly I couldn't of asked for the setup to work any better. They compliment each other well.


Below is a REW graph showing results post Audy then my tweaks.

Purple line- Just post Audy sweep. Notice how low it set the bass. That is why many never reach the full potential of their subs. You will run out of sub trim adjustment without going extreme positive to get good bass.

Teal line- I bumped sub trim from -11 to -6.

Blue line- Set the JTR LF adjust from mid to max.

Yellow line- Set the PSA RC from mid to 3/4 from max.

Red line- Set the PSA RC to max bumped sub trim to -4.
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post #15018 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 10:43 AM
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^^ Look good BH. The extension could have been a bit better in room with the 10hz xs1200 though.
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post #15019 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 10:54 AM
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Thinking of turning my audyssey xt32 filter off for now.

My seats are against the back wall and there is a null for the mains and subs around 80hz. The audyssey tries to correct it too much, it sounds "corrected" at lower volumes but at higher volume the system sounds strained.
I rather have the null than have it sound like that. There is simply not enough power to correct a null. At least this is obvious for movies and for music listening I think I can leave audyssey on.

I already used the App to limit to correction so it doesn't apply filter to the sub channel above 60hz. But I think the straining is a result of trying to boost the mains as well.

What do you all think?
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post #15020 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 11:28 AM
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Hey guys, dont know if here is the right place to ask but im looking for some help, in near im looking to upgrade my PSA s3010 and cant make my mind what route to take, options are as bellow :

PSA s3012 dual
PSA TV18Ipal dual

or

JTR RS 2 single - with option to go duals in future

It is really bugging me, and cant make my mind, thanks for any ideas and opinions
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post #15021 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by maxkolonko123 View Post
Hey guys, dont know if here is the right place to ask but im looking for some help, in near im looking to upgrade my PSA s3010 and cant make my mind what route to take, options are as bellow :

PSA s3012 dual
PSA TV18Ipal dual

or

JTR RS 2 single - with option to go duals in future

It is really bugging me, and cant make my mind, thanks for any ideas and opinions
What are your goals and what is your room like? From these choices the RS2 is not even in the same league....so its really a simple choice....RS2
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post #15022 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Look good BH. The extension could have been a bit better in room with the 10hz xs1200 though.
I believe Jeff put a 12hz High Pass Filter on the 1200watt model. So it's basically a 12hz sub and I should probably refer to it as that even though the port tune is 10hz.
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post #15023 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by maxkolonko123 View Post
Hey guys, dont know if here is the right place to ask but im looking for some help, in near im looking to upgrade my PSA s3010 and cant make my mind what route to take, options are as bellow :

PSA s3012 dual
PSA TV18Ipal dual

or

JTR RS 2 single - with option to go duals in future

It is really bugging me, and cant make my mind, thanks for any ideas and opinions
First of all, you are in a JTR thread so I'm guessing the responses might be slanted heavily in favor of the JTR.

That's an interesting mix since you are considering sealed and ported. While the s3012 will have a cleaner sound than the s3010, I'm not sure that is a cost effective move. You would also lose a little bit of output down low since the 15DS115 has lower xmax than the Eminence driver.

The TV18iPal is going to have a lot more output down low and more tactile response than the sealed PSA, and would be my choice between the 2 PSA options on your list although I would probably save some money and just get the TV1812.

The JTR RS 2 is a very noticeable upgrade over the sealed PSA but you would only have a single so you could end up with a bumpy frequency response. I'm assuming dual RS1 is over the budget you are looking to stick with. If not, that would be a great choice. The JTR is also going to have a thicker sound which you may or may not prefer.

You should also consider the FV18 Paper Cone which is similar in price and size to the TV1812 and has available measurement data to see how it compares to the JTR option.
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post #15024 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
What are your goals and what is your room like? From these choices the RS2 is not even in the same league....so its really a simple choice....RS2
From my calcualation my room is 67 cubic meters, and my goal is to feel the output and pressurize it.

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First of all, you are in a JTR thread so I'm guessing the responses might be slanted heavily in favor of the JTR.

That's an interesting mix since you are considering sealed and ported. While the s3012 will have a cleaner sound than the s3010, I'm not sure that is a cost effective move. You would also lose a little bit of output down low since the 15DS115 has lower xmax than the Eminence driver.

The TV18iPal is going to have a lot more output down low and more tactile response than the sealed PSA, and would be my choice between the 2 PSA options on your list although I would probably save some money and just get the TV1812.

The JTR RS 2 is a very noticeable upgrade over the sealed PSA but you would only have a single so you could end up with a bumpy frequency response. I'm assuming dual RS1 is over the budget you are looking to stick with. If not, that would be a great choice. The JTR is also going to have a thicker sound which you may or may not prefer.

You should also consider the FV18 Paper Cone which is similar in price and size to the TV1812 and has available measurement data to see how it compares to the JTR option.

Thats great answer buddy, by thicker bass you mean hard punch compared to soft/meaty ? hard for to describe what i have on my mind
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post #15025 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 12:58 PM
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I do not know if the test I performed means conclusively that the tune is at 12hz, I'm only stating what I witnessed as an actual owner of two of these Cap 2400 subwoofers.

Would be curious to see what other actual owners here witness by running a tone at a low volume of say -25mv, with noEq at 10-15hz. Tell me which frequency it vibrates the least at.

https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
Can any owners out there mind running this test? Curious to see what results other owners end up with.
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post #15026 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by maxkolonko123 View Post
Thats great answer buddy, by thicker bass you mean hard punch compared to soft/meaty ? hard for to describe what i have on my mind
It can be hard to describe sound in words. When I hear "hard punch", I think of strong tight mid-bass that you feel in your chest. Thick bass to me is less focused on mid bass punch and has a stronger emphasis on deep bass that creates a sense of pressure.

I don't want it to sound like it is an either or proposition, just that some sub designs are often described one way more than another.

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Last edited by chucks0; 05-14-2020 at 01:26 PM.
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post #15027 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 01:14 PM
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Thinking of turning my audyssey xt32 filter off for now.

My seats are against the back wall and there is a null for the mains and subs around 80hz. The audyssey tries to correct it too much, it sounds "corrected" at lower volumes but at higher volume the system sounds strained.
I rather have the null than have it sound like that. There is simply not enough power to correct a null. At least this is obvious for movies and for music listening I think I can leave audyssey on.

I already used the App to limit to correction so it doesn't apply filter to the sub channel above 60hz. But I think the straining is a result of trying to boost the mains as well.

What do you all think?
Have you tried the sub distance tweak?

How do you know there is a null? Have you run REW before?

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post #15028 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Have you tried the sub distance tweak?

How do you know there is a null? Have you run REW before?
I don't think it's a sub distance tweak issue as audy graphs all individual graphs from sub and each of LCR shows a dip. It's a cancellation issue.

I have run REW on it, shows similar finding as audy. Audy can get it close to flat and REW shows but that does not mean when movies demands it, it can keep it sounding good. I only have the 118HT with 700W so not alot of headroom to correct 15 db or anything.
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post #15029 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PoorSignal View Post
I don't think it's a sub distance tweak issue as audy graphs all individual graphs from sub and each of LCR shows a dip. It's a cancellation issue.

I have run REW on it, shows similar finding as audy. Audy can get it close to flat and REW shows but that does not mean when movies demands it, it can keep it sounding good. I only have the 118HT with 700W so not alot of headroom to correct 15 db or anything.
All you have to do is run a FR of CC at your MV and see how it looks at 80Hz.

Make sure you compensate for the REW dBFS though. I am surprised many people don't know about this.

For example, say you want to run a FR of your normal MV of -10dB. You measure with the REW dBFS @ -3dB, which is the max, and your AVR MV @ -7dB. The combined SPL is -10dB.

Post the FR here.
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post #15030 of 15276 Old 05-14-2020, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
It can be hard to describe sound in words. When I hear "hard punch", I think of strong tight mid-bass that you feel in your chest. Thick bass to me is less focused on mid bass punch and has a stronger emphasis on deep bass that creates a sense of pressure.

I don't want it to sound like it is an either or proposition, just that some sub designs are often described one way more than another.
Now it makes perfect sense to me what u mean by it
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