Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 85 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2521 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Surprise I found on Data-Bass http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...rt=desc&mfr=-1
On this chart you could click on the frequency column to see ranking at any freq, and look what I found - 215HT what a nasty bad boy, and beat my 1400 WTH (at 20 Hz).

.......

BTW the 16 Hz ranking is kinder to my beloved 1400. Now 1/2 spot higher than the beast that is the 215HT. Tongue in cheek.




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post #2522 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 06:45 AM
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BTW the 16 Hz ranking is kinder to my beloved 1400. Now 1/2 spot higher than the beast that is the 215HT. Tongue in cheek.
Of course nobody has just one 215RT.
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post #2523 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
BTW the 16 Hz ranking is kinder to my beloved 1400. Now 1/2 spot higher than the beast that is the 215HT. Tongue in cheek.



Is this 2017 chart that we have been waiting on?
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post #2524 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Yeah with that million dollar view I think the best solution may be that 228HTR at 26" tall, on a small stand tilting up towards you. http://jtrspeakers.com/noesis-228htr.html

Looking at various JTR speakers is like getting lost in the land of the giants - they are all very big, for better dynamic headroom and full range response. Unfortunately that seems to be the rule for speakers (and many of my hobbies - whether TV screen, subwoofers, camera lens, cars), there is no replacement for size. :-)
I have been on Jeffs website starring at those a few times, As mentioned many times on this thread (going down the rabbit hole) i wouldn't be doing any of Jeffs speakers justice with my Integra 110 WPC, so more amplification likely needed and so on.

Also that photo was an older one off my computer as my neighbors hedges have grown to the point of limited views now.
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post #2525 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Of course nobody has just one 215RT.

Houston we have a problem. Great call.

@4kicknsnd : This is current 2017 chart, but no, the anticipated tests are not on yet.

Last edited by cannga; 04-12-2017 at 08:49 AM.
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post #2526 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Yeah, I have 3 215RT's across the front of a 2nd story suspended floor HT. The tactile feel and gut punch output from these "speakers" in my room is something to behold.

PS announcement ... get the new Planet Earth II bluray (or UHD if you are thusly equipped), it is a phenomenal audio video experience and is completely devoid of CG ...

Very nice. No subwoofer needed I assume?

Thanks for Planet Earth rec. Any of them is great. I've seen UHD on those LG OLED - makes me feel bad about my Pioneer Kuro. The darn thing wouldn't break so I could have a reason to replace it.
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post #2527 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 08:55 AM
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Of course nobody has just one 215RT.
To bad, it makes for one hellofa center channel.
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post #2528 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
I have been on Jeffs website starring at those a few times, As mentioned many times on this thread (going down the rabbit hole) i wouldn't be doing any of Jeffs speakers justice with my Integra 110 WPC, so more amplification likely needed and so on.

Also that photo was an older one off my computer as my neighbors hedges have grown to the point of limited views now.
Hi,

I don't want to be responsible for eliminating a reason for not buying new speakers but I don't believe that amplification would be a problem at all. The Noesis 228HT has a sensitivity rating of 98db in free air. In-room, it would take very little amplifier power to drive them to any reasonable listening levels. Much less than with conventional 88db to 91db speakers.

At audio shows, I imagine that he hooks them up to extremely powerful amplifiers, because he can, and to be able to drive them to ear-splitting levels that you would never want to reproduce, anyway. I have no idea whether moving to different and larger speakers would ever really be on the horizon for you, but if it were, sufficient amplifier power would be the last thing you would have to worry about. As with subwoofers, most people probably don't ever even attempt to reach the full volume levels that those speakers are capable of achieving. At least, not without hearing damage.

Regards,
Mike

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post #2529 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I don't want to be responsible for eliminating a reason for not buying new speakers but I don't believe that amplification would be a problem at all. The Noesis 228HT has a sensitivity rating of 98db in free air. In-room, it would take very little amplifier power to drive them to any reasonable listening levels. Much less than with conventional 88db to 91db speakers.

..,,,

Regards,
Mike
Mine T. again took the words right out of my mouth. And express it in a pleasant way. 😇 IDBF IMHO it would be ok if you 'd like to go ahead. As typical of horn loaded speakers these have extremely high sensitivity and 110 watts are more than enough.
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post #2530 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 12:18 PM
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Thanks for the reassurance guys, good to know. More bass envelopment and headroom comes first though,,, but i do know from the past my little bookshelves wont hold a candle to a good set of JTR's based on lesser floor standing mains i've had
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post #2531 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 07:03 PM
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I don't know if any of you saw this over on the 'New IST (Mach 5) 32" sub thread'.
And you thought a 4000ULF was huge. Talk about sub porn!





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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
A 12 looks silly next to a 32...
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post #2532 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 07:11 PM
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I don't know if any of you saw this over on the 'New IST (Mach 5) 32" sub thread'.
And you thought a 4000ULF was huge. Talk about sub porn!

Starting to look like back to future tech
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post #2533 of 13467 Old 04-12-2017, 07:29 PM
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Starting to look like back to future tech
Starting to look ridiculous is more like it.
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post #2534 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 07:17 AM
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Starting to look ridiculous is more like it.
Agreed! It's like putting 26" wheels on a Camaro.
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Cannga, this matches your sub

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post #2536 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Starting to look ridiculous is more like it.
I do wonder if the progression to ever increasing driver size would stop at 18" (Seaton, JTR, PSA, etc.), or if it moves on to 21, 24, etc. I imagine multiple smaller drivers could be used to equalize the surface are size difference, ie multiple 18's to equal/exceed surface area of single 21, or single 24. What then are the pro's and con's? I am sure the experts would have quite a healthy/lengthy debate on this matter. Who likes to be the instigator and poses this question to Deep Sea Sound and Funk?

I think it's going to stop at 18 though, for ease of handling/installing, and the fact that the 18 could have a narrower front surface by definition.
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post #2537 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I do wonder if the progression to ever increasing driver size would stop at 18", or if it moves on to 21, 24, etc. I imagine multiple smaller drivers could be used to equalize the surface are size difference, ie multiple 18's to equal/exceed surface area of single 21, or single 24. What then are the pro's and con's? I am sure the pro's would have quite a healthy/lengthy debate on this matter.

I think it's going to stop at 18 though, for ease of handling/installing, and the fact that the 18 could have a narrower front surface by definition.
Deep sea makes a 24inch now don't they?
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post #2538 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Deep sea makes a 24inch now don't they?
Yep and Funk. See my post again pls (you answered while I was editing).
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post #2539 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 07:51 AM
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Yep and Funk. See my post again pls (you answered while I was editing).
Got it.
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post #2540 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, I would have loved love to see a pair of the 215HT's in cannga's custom burgundy finish at the LA Audio Show this coming June. It would blow away a lot of the "audiophile" speakers at it's price point and really open up the high end market to JTR products.
Or even better yet a pair on display next to a Ferrari California T Burgundy in matching Ferrari burgundy finish. Nothing like a raving show review in Stereophile to spread the word...
Jeff, any chance you's reconsider coming to LA? You could co-op with the Beverly Hills Ferrari dealer.
...[/IMG]


Yeah I've suggested this but unfortunately 2-channel audio crowd is not Jeff's target audience. The cost would be quite something for him too I imagine.

Meanwhile, it seems to me high end audio remains blissfully unaware of the significant advancements made by ID subwoofer companies in design, execution, and testing, over the last few years. Pretty much still restricted to JL Audio - one sample of which is the smallish E112 I own.

I finally did a shoot-out of JL 12 incher vs JTR 18 incher for music and lo and behold, to my ears/system, it is the JTR that is cleaner and has less muddiness/overhang. Essentially "better" for music as well (and no comparison whatsoever for movies).
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post #2541 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I do wonder if the progression to ever increasing driver size would stop at 18" (Seaton, JTR, PSA, etc.), or if it moves on to 21, 24, etc. I imagine multiple smaller drivers could be used to equalize the surface are size difference, ie multiple 18's to equal/exceed surface area of single 21, or single 24. What then are the pro's and con's? I am sure the experts would have quite a healthy/lengthy debate on this matter. Who likes to be the instigator and poses this question to Deep Sea Sound and Funk?

I think it's going to stop at 18 though, for ease of handling/installing, and the fact that the 18 could have a narrower front surface by definition.
Yeah I've been wondering the same thing. I think I agree with you that 18" subs might be where the majority of the companies draw the line. The 18" subs certainly seem to be getting a lot of attention and they also seem to be selling robustly. I think they hit that sweet spot for extreme output capabilities while still being small enough to handle and integrate properly into many rooms. We know the 18's aren't meant for the average Joe but for people like us they check a lot of boxes. The 21's and 24's start to become a challenge (for many different reasons). And while we would all love their capabilities their size may be a real issue for many... as in most.

I guess time will tell.

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post #2542 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 08:51 AM
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Thinking out Loud (actually thinking as I type).

There are really two independent Sub markets out there with regard to Movie Bass. The Multi-purpose Home Theater and the Dedicated Man Cave Home Theater. In the former, 18" may be a big as you can go and still pass the WAF Test. For the Man Cave, well, the sky is the limit. So is usable Square Footage.

I have no real data to support my claims. But I would guesstimate the spread to be about 70/30. 70% Multipurpose and 30% dedicated. I may be giving the dedicated to much credit here.

When you begin to scale the Box size to the Driver it becomes readily apparent. Toss in logistics costs of shipping and manufacturing it gets even more complex. However, I bet these same arguments were made when Large Subs were 12". Another thought to ponder. The Modern Home is wired with 20 Amp/15 Amp breakers and 15 amp wall sockets. Electrical loads with the current Subs 2400 & 4000 are getting very close to maximum draw on these electrical circuits. To go any further, will require specialized electrical supply modifications. More associated costs. Or a technology break through in power draw shading/shifting/leveling. That will allow more powerful amps to operate efficiently on limited supply amperage.

IMHO we are indeed hitting several major hurdles:

1. Sub Box size. If designed as Furniture or the like. Perhaps it can be overcome.
2. Logistics costs. Production would need to be scaled up and some method of shipping developed. Like home assembly required. So the components can be disassembled and shipped in small part pieces.
3. Home Power constraints must be overcome. Either by better power storage capacitors and draw algorithms. Or higher efficiency drivers.

Not that all of this can not be overcome. It can and most likely will. But it does present a complex path to market for a Sub Manufacture to venture.

You say wants bigger subs? Well, we all do to be honest. But getting there is not easy or cheap at this point in time.

What say you? Agree, disagree, why?

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post #2543 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
I do wonder if the progression to ever increasing driver size would stop at 18" (Seaton, JTR, PSA, etc.), or if it moves on to 21, 24, etc. I imagine multiple smaller drivers could be used to equalize the surface are size difference, ie multiple 18's to equal/exceed surface area of single 21, or single 24. What then are the pro's and con's? I am sure the experts would have quite a healthy/lengthy debate on this matter. Who likes to be the instigator and poses this question to Deep Sea Sound and Funk?

I think it's going to stop at 18 though, for ease of handling/installing, and the fact that the 18 could have a narrower front surface by definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Yeah I've been wondering the same thing. I think I agree with you that 18" subs might be where the majority of the companies draw the line. The 18" subs certainly seem to be getting a lot of attention and they also seem to be selling robustly. I think they hit that sweet spot for extreme output capabilities while still being small enough to handle and integrate properly into many rooms. We know the 18's aren't meant for the average Joe but for people like us they check a lot of boxes. The 21's and 24's start to become a challenge (for many different reasons). And while we would all love their capabilities their size may be a real issue for many... as in most.

I guess time will tell.
I agree with both of you that, for most HT owners, 18" subs represent about the maximum in size that will be used in the majority of cases. But, we might want to distinguish between HT hobbyists and subwoofer hobbyists, because I think that they are different, with potentially different goals. Most of us are trying to balance form and function in both multi-purpose rooms and in dedicated HT's. And, for us, 18" subs will be about the practical maximum.

But, there are people who have solid walls of subs, for whom cabinet size, or number of subs, is simply not a factor in the pursuit of their hobby. Some of those hobbyists already have 21" and 24" subs and are eager to keep pushing the envelope. And, I think that sub makers are helping to fuel that by continuing to find ways to set their subs apart from their competitors. Bigger subs, with bigger drivers, will probably continue to be a factor in that arms race.

Of course, that part of the hobby may eventually burn itself out. But, I think that clever designers, such as Nathan Funk, will just find ways to incorporate larger drivers into relatively smaller cabinets, as he has with his FA21. So, who knows whether 21's, at least, might not occupy a meaningful market niche at some point?

Regards,
Mike

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4kicknsnd View Post
Starting to look like back to future tech
Quote:
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Starting to look ridiculous is more like it.
When you are right you are right. This all goes to show that there is a razor-thin line between being a bass-head and being nuts.

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When I first saw this…
… I thought it was ridiculous!
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post #2546 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
IMHO we are indeed hitting several major hurdles:

1. Sub Box size. If designed as Furniture or the like. Perhaps it can be overcome.
2. Logistics costs. Production would need to be scaled up and some method of shipping developed. Like home assembly required. So the components can be disassembled and shipped in small part pieces.
3. Home Power constraints must be overcome. Either by better power storage capacitors and draw algorithms. Or higher efficiency drivers.

Not that all of this can not be overcome. It can and most likely will. But it does present a complex path to market for a Sub Manufacture to venture.

You say wants bigger subs? Well, we all do to be honest. But getting there is not easy or cheap at this point in time.

What say you? Agree, disagree, why?
I agree. I think the major hurdle is cost. A business has to create products at a price point that enough people can afford to buy them. How much will a quality 24" sub cost to buy? And then how much more to ship? There comes a point where you price the majority of your target clients right out of being able to buy the product. Will there be a small market? Sure. But you won't be able to move very many.

So now it becomes a question of business models. The companies focusing on custom products (at much higher costs) are willing to sell far fewer subwoofers but the one's they sell are three to four times the cost of others. I think that might be why Funk and Deep Sea were the first willing to go this route.

I think Reaction Audio tried but we all saw how well that worked out. But there were many other issues there as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I agree with both of you that, for most HT owners, 18" subs represent about the maximum in size that will be used in the majority of cases. But, we might want to distinguish between HT hobbyists and subwoofer hobbyists, because I think that they are different, with potentially different goals. Most of us are trying to balance form and function in both multi-purpose rooms and in dedicated HT's. And, for us, 18" subs will be about the practical maximum.

But, there are people who have solid walls of subs, for whom cabinet size, or number of subs, is simply not a factor in the pursuit of their hobby. Some of those hobbyists already have 21" and 24" subs and are eager to keep pushing the envelope. And, I think that sub makers are helping to fuel that by continuing to find ways to set their subs apart from their competitors. Bigger subs, with bigger drivers, will probably continue to be a factor in that arms race.

Regards,
Mike
Good points. You are absolutely right, there is a difference between the HT group and the subwoofer hobbyist. But most subwoofer hobbyists have abandoned subwoofer manufacturers and have gone the DIY route for the fact they can't get what they from the manufacturers and if they could they could build three of their own for the same cost (subwoofer affordability).

I do think the custom builders like Deep Sea and Funk are able to more easily move into the mammoth subwoofers for the simple reason they are going to make it to a their clients desires anyway which already is going to be a premium, and the client goes into that relationship understanding and expecting that. It's more of a cost is no issue type situation. I could be wrong though.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
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post #2547 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
When I first saw this…
… I thought it was ridiculous!
Easy there! I should have know better than to call any of us nuts. In my own defense, if I buy a JTR Captivator 4000ULF sub, it won't look like that.
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post #2548 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
When I first saw this…
… I thought it was ridiculous!
There is a theory called the overton window. The theory is that if we suggest something so outrageous that we know no one will accept, it all of sudden makes something a little less extreme platable which otherwise would have not. So suggest a 36 inch driver and all of a sudden a 26 or 28 inch does not look as bad.
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post #2549 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
There is a theory called the overton window. The theory is that if we suggest something so outrageous that we know no one will accept, it all of sudden makes something a little less extreme platable which otherwise would have not. So suggest a 36 inch driver and all of a sudden a 26 or 28 inch does not look as bad.
What is so outrageous about two 18" drivers in a 41″ x 20.5″ x 39.5″ cabinet . . . never mind.
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post #2550 of 13467 Old 04-13-2017, 10:28 AM
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What is so outrageous about two 18" drivers in a 41″ x 20.5″ x 39.5″ cabinet . . . never mind.
Think you picked it up but I was building on the conversation above that had the large single driver
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