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Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread

2M views 19K replies 589 participants last post by  anjunadeep 
#1 · (Edited)
For those not familiar, JTR (web site here), operated by the ever low-key, low-profile Jeff Permanian, is one of the most highly-regarded and reputable internet direct companies in the US. JTR makes both speakers and subwoofers, and serves two separate markets: professional, for the live music/concert industry, and residential, for nutty hobbyists who frequent AVS forum. JTR first made waves by readily submitting their subwoofers to be tested by third party, in this case the great test site Data-Bass, and in so doing achieved some of the most spectacular CEA test results EVER measured in residential subwoofers (see chart below for proof). Because subwoofers distort or make odd noises around max output, third party CEA testing is crucial, but not all companies do this, and they should. CEA is in many aspects the gold standard, like the 0-60 time or horsepower of your sports car.

To make a long story short: there are many excellent subwoofer companies, but when it comes to performance, you could count on the fact that JTR will have the top performance metrics in EVERY single price point category. This is an "extreme" company as it specializes in making subwoofers with
1. extreme high output
2. extreme deep bass
(sub 20 Hz, where JTR alone reigns supreme)
If you are chasing the ultimate home-theater sound, ask yourself: All brands do upper bass well, but JTR adds extreme deep bass to the upper bass, and so... why would you not want BOTH?! The addition of extreme deep bass prowess is the key to the JTR brand.

You may wonder why other companies could not reach the deepest of bass that JTR is known for. What makes it unique? The primary reason has to do with the extremely high Xmax of the JTR driver - it is about 33 mm, whereas PSA/ Rythmik/ SVS, etc. at this point all use low Xmax driver (in the low 20's mm). Higher Xmax does lead to cleaner & more powerful output in sub-20 Hz bass. Conversely as an example, low Xmax is one reason why Rythmik FV25HP (a great subwoofer) measures well but in actual use requires owner to engage a rumble filter that reduces what you hear by -6 dB at 10 Hz. See the picture below that shows the difference between 2 drivers with different Xmax.

JTR is actually a very small company, completely different in its operation from competitors such as PSA, Rythmik, and SVS. These other companies are much larger and their subwoofers are assembled/made by factory workers and in fact SVS and Rythmik are "Made in China." In contrast, at this point, every JTR is still hand assembled by its founder and owner Permanian, using US drivers and US amps. The small operation is what allows JTR to go ALL-OUT in its designs, and why competitors cannot match JTR when it comes to extreme high output in the low bass. A tiny American company in the heartland of America, components made and hand assembled in the USA by the owner: are these not enough reasons for us to buy JTR already? :) Every subwoofer that leaves JTR is a hand-made jewel by one person, like the very best of Swiss watches.

Why are JTR subwoofers so large? Because, all else being equaled, it's the law of physics that a larger subwoofer WINS. See Hoffman's Iron Laws for subwoofer design here. Yes, bigger is indeed better: improved efficiency, higher output, deeper extension. JTR subwoofers bring to mind the best aspects of American muscle cars: huge size, prodigious power. So, we now know the SECRET SAUCE of any JTR subwoofer (hint: huge):
1. huge cabinet
2. huge Xmax
3. huge power amp


The audiophiles out there would ask, yes we know the incredible measured (objective) numbers, but what exactly is the "subjective sound" of JTR subwoofers? Owners have described the sound as ultra clean, without "overhang" or muddiness. This tight, clean sound is for me the most important quality for any subwoofer, and making JTR great for BOTH music and movies. There is also a sense of tremendous effortlessness that really has to be heard once in your life. I have used several subwoofers over the last 30 years in my chase for the perfect sound, am very (VERY) picky about integration of subwoofer into a music system, and I could confidently report that my JTR 1400 passed the test with flying colors. Yes it's a bucket list item; without a JTR subwoof, your audio life has not been fulfilled :).

I am somewhat of a mildly-jaded audiophile who has been in this hobby for nearly 30 years, and has owned several well known high-end audio components. The fact that I decided to start a thread on JTR indicates how tremendously impressed I am with these subwoofers. I have no financial interest in JTR; merely like to spread the words on a product that is so outstanding in so many aspects. Prior to starting JTR, this company's founder had worked for many years developing drivers, and I believe it is this expertise of driver function and manufacturing that leads to what we see today. Congratulations on the company's 10 year anniversary celebration. Happy Holidays to all, and of course to Mr. JTR, Jeff Permanian.

I. To properly decide which subwoofer is right for you, it's best to first categorize. There are 2 primary categories: a. Xmax/motor strength, and b. Single versus dual drivers. The Xmax rating is crucial; it affects capability in ultra-low bass, the most expensive and difficult aspect of bass reproduction. The same attention should be paid to motor strength rating. It is key to ultra deep bass, and is listed on JTR website. For example: "extremely high strength motor 256 bl^2/re" for the JTR 1400, and "high strength motor 165.8 bl^2/re" for the JTR 118HT. So... with the above parameters in mind, let's see how the various JTR subwoofers are categorized:

Xmax 19 mm: (in the 20mm range, similar to Xmax of drivers from PSA/Rythmik/SVS presently)
Single, High Strength Driver 165.8 bl^2/re (this class is about $1300 & up):
JTR Captivator 118HT
Dual, High Strength Driver 165.8 bl^2/re (this class is about $2000 & up):
JTR 218HT

Xmax 33 mm: This is an important parameter, and JTR is the rare company that uses such high Xmax drivers. While it's not "everything," it's DIRECTLY related to distortion and output of ultra low bass. Most 18 inch subwoofers from the larger companies (for example Rythmik and PSA) have Xmax around 20's mm, while JTR is one of the VERY few that use 30's mm Xmax drivers. In short, Xmax is a KEY spec for deep bass capability.
Single, Extreme High Strength Driver 256 (bl^2/re) (this class is about $2000 & up):
JTR Orbit Shifter and Captivator 1400, 2400, and S1
Dual, Extreme High Strength Driver 256 (bl^2/re) (this class is around $3000 & up):
JTR Captivator 4000 ULF and S2

II. Now that you've read the above, this is how I would describe each subwoofer:
Powerful Bang For The Buck
118HT: ported, 18", 19mm xmax, 120 oz. magnet, Fb=17 Hz, 1200 w RMS from 9/2018, 700 w before 9/2018 (Discontinued)
All Around Winner: STAGGERING Capability & Lower Cost
Captivator 2400 and 2400 ULF: ported, 18", 33mm xmax, Fb=10 Hz, 2400 w RMS
Captivator S1: sealed, 18", 33mm xmax, 2400 w RMS class D
218HT: ported, dual 18", 19mm xmax, 1400 w RMS (Dual 700ASC) (Discontinued)
Captivator 1400: ported, 18", 33mm xmax, Fb=17 Hz, 1400 w RMS Dual ICE 700 ASC (Discontinued 9/2018)
The Last Subwoofer You'll Ever Buy
Captivator S2: sealed, dual 18", 33mm xmax, 4000 w RMS, class D
Orbit Shifter LFU: folded horn, 18", 30mm xmax, 4000 w RMS, 7200 w burst
Captivator 4000 ULF: ported, dual 18", 33mm xmax, 4000 w RMS

III. Recommendation IMHO (EDIT: much has changed since I wrote what follows - some models no longer made.)
1. $1500: 118HT - among highest performance/cost ratio of all internet subwoofers, starts with one of these, aim for 2 as you grow older and richer ;-).
2. $2000 budget: 1400/S1 (S1 if sealed is desired) - now you have the extremely powerful driver. The 1400 remains the least expensive subwoofer that brings you into the 33 Club (33mm Xmax), a potent combination of cost, size, and power. It was the subwoofer I bought.
3. $2500 budget: The 2400, which will go down in history as a hall of famer. All things considered one of the best subwoofers EVER designed. Potent deep bass, manageable size, low cost; were I to start over again, this would be the subwoofer I buy.
4. $3300 budget and has the space for it: The King - 4000 ULF. Wrt CEA 2010, the JTR 4000 is THE very "best" HT subwoofer Data-Bass has tested. This is an all-time great that has no equal and should be celebrated by all bass-heads. It is the end of the road for bass "chasers." The 4000 is what I dream owning LOL.
5. If sealed is your game: S1 is most powerful sealed subwoofer on market and has no competitor at its price point. S2 has unlimimted power and save money by stuffing dual drivers in single cabinet. Two S1's or one S2 is THE END game for sealed subwoofers. It does not get any better than this ;-).











Typical high Xmax driver (JTR 18 inch driver) versus low Xmax driver (similar Xmax to PSA and Rythmik 18 inch driver)
 

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#10,941 ·
Usually around Black Friday, not much happens in the ID subwoofer industry... Not this year at JTR...

JTR is having the Free shipping promo til the end of November (Contiguous USA only. No other discounts apply).

In addition, Jeff has a very limited stock of 2019 Captivator 118HTs (tuned to 18Hz) for $1599 shipped, that is at least $300 off.

Get yours now!





That's a great deal for you mainlanders. :)
 
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#10,942 ·
I’m with you there buddy. A new OLED and 4K Blu-ray are on my list for next year. My Panasonic plasma has been great but this small ass 54” screen just isn’t cutting it anymore.

Todd
Due to the panel's low yield, OLED is just so expensive relative to LED TVs ... The magic number for me is $20 per diagonal inch, and OLED is currently at > $30... Large screen LED TVs become so affordable this quickly because there are many panel manufacturers...

It's going to be years before the OLED will become as affordable as LED TV. Samsung is not making the OLED panels any time soon because the company had failed doing so before. Currently, the 77" OLEDs are $7000... :(

In your case, if you upgrade to the 65" OLEDs next year, IMO, the 'upgrade' will be much more dramatic if you can move your couch closer to the TV. :)
 
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#10,943 ·
Due to the panel's low yield, OLED is just so expensive relative to LED TVs ... The magic number for me is $20 per diagonal inch, and OLED is currently at > $30... Large screen LED TVs become so affordable this quickly because there are many panel manufacturers...

It's going to be years before the OLED will become as affordable as LED TV. Samsung is not making the OLED panels any time soon because the company had failed doing so before. Currently, the 77" OLEDs are $7000... :(

In your case, if you upgrade to the 65" OLEDs next year, IMO, the 'upgrade' will be much more dramatic if you can move your couch closer to the TV. :)
True enough. I won’t argue, OLED is expensive. However your street price for the 77 is about 2k off. ;) And, I haven’t made a definitive decision. I took about 9 months to decide on subs so.......

Can’t move closer to the TV due to the women rules of the house but that gives me an excuse to get something bigger!

Not ruling out a ginormous LED either, I’ll be spending many an hour at BB comparing between now and then. Don’t fret my good man, I picked we’ll with the 2400......do you doubt me on a new TV? I didn’t think so......:cool:
 
#10,944 ·
]

It's going to be years before the OLED will become as affordable as LED TV. Samsung is not making the OLED panels any time soon because the company had failed doing so before. Currently, the 77" OLEDs are $7000... :(
$5k even with 5 year extended warranty and no interest for 3 years from authorized brick & mortar dealer:
 

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#10,947 ·
oleds look great but hate to say nobody in my family can critique any tv of last 10 years....if the cowboys on they good.
 
#10,948 ·
$5k even with 5 year extended warranty and no interest for 3 years from authorized brick & mortar dealer:
What? How is that possible? OLED77C8 is still $7000 at Costco... Not saying that Costco price is the only right price...

$5000 even is a great price!
 
#10,949 ·
True enough. I won’t argue, OLED is expensive. However your street price for the 77 is about 2k off. ;) And, I haven’t made a definitive decision. I took about 9 months to decide on subs so.......

Can’t move closer to the TV due to the women rules of the house but that gives me an excuse to get something bigger!

Not ruling out a ginormous LED either, I’ll be spending many an hour at BB comparing between now and then. Don’t fret my good man, I picked we’ll with the 2400......do you doubt me on a new TV? I didn’t think so......:cool:
I know you can't move your couch closer to the TV... That is why I suggested it... ;)

Definitely not doubting you, my man... Just pointing out the high prices for OLED. In contrast, a decent (IMO) 75" Samsung LED UN75NU710 is $1088 + tax now. You could get 4 of them and make a giant 150" TV wall for less than the 77" OLED... ;)
 
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#10,950 ·
I know you can't move your couch closer to the TV... That is why I suggested it... ;)

Definitely not doubting you, my man... Just pointing out the high prices for OLED. In contrast, a decent (IMO) 75" Samsung LED UN75NU710 is $1088 + tax now. You could get 4 of them and make a giant 150" TV wall for less than the 77" OLED... ;)
IMO, spend $1k-$1.5k on a decent LCD, spend far less than the difference the OLED would have cost and get a projection setup.
 
#10,951 ·
What? How is that possible? OLED77C8 is still $7000 at Costco... Not saying that Costco price is the only right price...

$5000 even is a great price!
Check out the Oled deals thread if you are looking. I walked in and went right to the store Manager with a few printouts from some of the online discounters and told him I was buying a TV today and that I'd buy one from him right now if he made it worth my while. 10 minutes later the set was in the truck. :)
 
#10,952 ·
IMO, spend $1k-$1.5k on a decent LCD, spend far less than the difference the OLED would have cost and get a projection setup.
PJ is for sure the best option for a dedicated room and for watching movies with a cinema-scope aspect. But it is not necessarily the best option if you don't have complete light controlled room or for regular family room, IMO. I have PJ and AT screen ready to install in my basement, but my build keeps getting side tracked. :(
 
#10,953 ·
Check out the Oled deals thread if you are looking. I walked in and went right to the store Manager with a few printouts from some of the online discounters and told him I was buying a TV today and that I'd buy one from him right now if he made it worth my while. 10 minutes later the set was in the truck. :)
Exactly! Use the power of retail competition to your advantage!

DJ
 
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#10,954 ·
PJ is for sure the best option for a dedicated room and for watching movies with a cinema-scope aspect. But it is not necessarily the best option if you don't have complete light controlled room or for regular family room, IMO. I have PJ and AT screen ready to install in my basement, but my build keeps getting side tracked. :(

I thought modern day projectors had enough light output to work well even in a room that isn't completely dark. However, my point is that a $1k-$1.5k TV is maybe good enough for watching the news or Oprah, and the projection screen can be lowered and curtains drawn for serious viewing. Even a motorized electric screen and very good projector can be done for less than the cost of a large OLED minus the cost of a decent LCD/LED. I mean, this hobby isn't always about the best value, and everyone has their own priorities, but my personal preference would be a 110" screen with a great picture, and a $1-$1.5k TV, versus only a $5-$7k TV and no large screen.
 
#10,955 · (Edited)
$5000 even is a great price!
Yep, if you’re are talking to the decision maker like @jjackkrash says, you can strike a pretty good deal. People have been speculating on the 77 dropping to to 5k and below.

I know you can't move your couch closer to the TV... That is why I suggested it... ;)

Definitely not doubting you, my man... Just pointing out the high prices for OLED. In contrast, a decent (IMO) 75" Samsung LED UN75NU710 is $1088 + tax now. You could get 4 of them and make a giant 150" TV wall for less than the 77" OLED... ;)
Lol, I was a little slow on the couch thing. 4x75......hhmmm...I might have to think about that :) I know you’re not doubting me and I appreciate the advice.

IMO, spend $1k-$1.5k on a decent LCD, spend far less than the difference the OLED would have cost and get a projection setup.
I have considered a projector and screen but not sure how that would work in my room. I would have to somehow mount it on the ceiling and then have it drop down for movies. I may have to look into that still again. Anyway, like I said, I’m not completely set on what I’m gettingI did look at a top of the line LED but then I saw the blooming affect and then I couldn’t unsee it, I couldn’t unring that bell. Since this is going to be a big purchase, I tend to over analyze, rethink, over analyze, rethink and then start over.

My apologies to the JTR thread, I seemed to have derailed it a bit. Carry on with the sub talk.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Todd
 
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#10,956 ·
I thought modern day projectors had enough light output to work well even in a room that isn't completely dark.
This depends mostly on what you can personally tolerate. I love a nice PJ in a black room, but my personal enjoyment starts to wane pretty quickly as the room gets lighter.

Also, on the Oled, you can get a very nice 65" set for $2k. The 77"ers have a panel size that was very inefficient to make in the older facilities (LG upgraded and is upgrading its production facilities to make these bigger panels more efficiently) and the prices have just in the last few weeks come out of the clouds. $5k is still a tough nut for me to swallow, but I really wanted one of these babies. :)
 
#10,957 ·
Yep, if you’re are talking to the decision maker like @jjackkrash says, you can strike a pretty good deal. People have been speculating on the 77 dropping to to 5k and below.



Lol, I was a little slow on the couch thing. 4x75......hhmmm...I might have to think about that :) I know you’re not doubting me and I appreciate the advice.



I have considered a projector and screen but not sure how that would work in my room. I would have to somehow mount it on the ceiling and then have it drop down for movies. I may have to look into that still again. Anyway, like I said, I’m not completely set on what I’m gettingI did look at a top of the line LED but then I saw the blooming affect and then I couldn’t unsee it, I couldn’t unring that bell. Since this is going to be a big purchase, I tend to over analyze, rethink, over analyze, rethink and then start over.

My apologies to the JTR thread, I seemed to have derailed it a bit. Carry on with the sub talk.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Todd
I dunno, having seen your viewing room I’m thinking an LED OLED direct view monitor is going to be your best bet from a form/function standpoint. More simple plug and play. The WAF standpoint will also factor in heavily here since there will be no drilling and sawing or running of wires and the battling of light issues in a space with an open floor plan. An 85 incher would give you more than enough of what you’re looking for where visual field is concerned, and since we are right up against Black Friday/Cyber Monday...Like I said we love our 75” Sony as it fits our space perfectly.

DJ
 
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#10,958 ·
I dunno, having seen your viewing room I’m thinking an LED OLED direct view monitor is going to be your best bet from a form/function standpoint. More simple plug and play. The WAF standpoint will also factor in heavily here since there will be no drilling and sawing or running of wires and the battling of light issues in a space with an open floor plan. An 85 incher would give you more than enough of what you’re looking for where visual field is concerned, and since we are right up against Black Friday/Cyber Monday...Like I said we love our 75” Sony as it fits our space perfectly.

DJ
Thanks for the thought DJ. I am leaning that way since I don’t have a dedicated room but I’ve got some time to think.

I’ll bet that 75 is nice. Rest assured, I’ll be getting the biggest best TV I can afford without selling a kidney! Who are we kidding....I’ve got 2.....:rolleyes:

Todd
 
#10,959 · (Edited)
I have considered a projector and screen but not sure how that would work in my room. I would have to somehow mount it on the ceiling and then have it drop down for movies. I may have to look into that still again. Anyway, like I said, I’m not completely set on what I’m gettingI did look at a top of the line LED but then I saw the blooming affect and then I couldn’t unsee it, I couldn’t unring that bell. Since this is going to be a big purchase, I tend to over analyze, rethink, over analyze, rethink and then start over.

My apologies to the JTR thread, I seemed to have derailed it a bit. Carry on with the sub talk.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Todd

No apologies needed; we LOVE talking about toys!! :) Anyway, I have JVC projector in my hometheater for around 20 years now, and Pioneer Kuro 60" plasma in living room.

Just MHO:
1. Any movies, sports, shows on the projector TRANSFORMS the experience. The room however must be very dark, the darker the better. There is no way around this - must be dark.
2. Any LED or OLED will kill the projector when it comes to brightness and PQ in case of OLED, but... the experience will not be the same primarily because of the small size. The only advantage is for watching news in a bright room, as projector is not nearly as convenient and does not look good in a bright room.
3. Every time I'm at Best Buy, I am completely mesmerized by the picture quality and "blackness" of the OLED's. To the point that I wish my Kuro would stop working. :eek:

So if you could have a dark room or plan to watch movies mostly in evening etc., go for the projector, you will never go back. Ideally, get an OLED for the living room LOL.
 
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