Mid-Bass Demo Disc Volume 1 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
Thanks guys ( @LastButNotLeast & @superleo My one main conclusion so far is that my system is seriously lacking in mid-bass at the moment :-)
why do you say that?

@LastButNotLeast
Are you running your midbass model hotter than a neutral flat frequency response for preference? Just curious?
I've got eight 18" subs, but mine are balanced neutrally via EQ to compose a fairly flat frequency response without intentional emphasis anywhere. The graph attached was 7-100hz - no smoothing, taken of my gear with omnimic. With a flat frequency response - I'm not sure I'm picking up on these tracks what someone would with an intentionally hot mid bass module directly behind their seat. There are some neat tracks, but some I don't understand their inclusion - like the terminator salvation intro and the orange is the new black intro. They just sound very normal. Just curious how you have your gear setup to your preference or to a reference? (I'm not telling you either is right or wrong - just curious).

And, what's your favorite track on the disk with your midbass module?
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post #32 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I think you meant to address Brazle.
My MBM is in Buffalo (poor thing) for repair.
The recent work with VibSensor has shown that frequency response and tactile response are very often independent, so you can increase midbass tactile response ("chest slam") with a flat FR.
Michael

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post #33 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil1975m View Post
I'll order some DVD dl discs then..!
That's the whole point. Get a bunch and get the other BD9s (link in my sig) [and the ones coming ] while you're at it.
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post #34 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 07:08 AM
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Thanks for this! Downloading now and will leave seed up for a while after.

Cheers!
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post #35 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 07:35 AM
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Does anyone know if the Xbox One S will play these files? The Xbox One did not so I purchased a bluray burner and discs, burned the prior demo discs, and returned the burner. Would love to have this since its unique in that it's all mid-bass, but don't really wanna purchase and return another burner. I felt a bit slimy the first time I did it.

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post #36 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
but don't really wanna purchase and return another burner. I felt a bit slimy the first time I did it.
Not to be snide, but how about buying and KEEPING the burner this time.
It's not like you're going to have to sell your projector to pay for it.
Michael
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post #37 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Not to be snide, but how about buying and KEEPING the burner this time.
It's not like you're going to have to sell your projector to pay for it.
Michael
That's wayyyyy to logical

You're right. It's $75. I should just buy it and keep it. Never know when another (assumingly) awesome demo disc will come out.

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post #38 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 08:45 AM
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Thanks for the great collection of the demo scenes. The drum scene and the Godzilla were awesome. I didn't had the HSU when I watched the Godzilla movie but now I can tell what I was missing .

I wasn't able to play the last 4-5 clips because the bluray complained about sound not supported. I assume that those are clips with Dolby Atmos soundtrack and they are not playing because my Bluray/AVR isn't Atmos capable.

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post #39 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
why do you say that?
In most of these clips it felt like something was missing to me. The House of Flying Daggers clip was OK and so was the Resident Evil clip. Terminator Salvation is one where I'd expect some punch on the beats and my system had none.

Here are two posts I made yesterday AFTER setting up my MBM for the first time and doing some initial runs. Haven't had time to re-watch all these clips yet to see what's changed.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post49224529
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post49224281
I noticed some difference in Book of Eli (especially the minigun toward the end of the clip) and Resident Evil after bumping up the mid bass. Terminator was slightly better, but still not what I think it should be.
I think the main thing the mid-bass will add will be tight beats and gun-shots and the tactile response you can feel in your chest at those moments.
Like I mentioned in one of my posts, the light cycle scene in Tron is one of my go-to's and when it's lacking mid-bass it's less than satisfying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@LastButNotLeast
Are you running your midbass model hotter than a neutral flat frequency response for preference? Just curious?
I've got eight 18" subs, but mine are balanced neutrally via EQ to compose a fairly flat frequency response without intentional emphasis anywhere. The graph attached was 7-100hz - no smoothing, taken of my gear with omnimic. With a flat frequency response - I'm not sure I'm picking up on these tracks what someone would with an intentionally hot mid bass module directly behind their seat. There are some neat tracks, but some I don't understand their inclusion - like the terminator salvation intro and the orange is the new black intro. They just sound very normal. Just curious how you have your gear setup to your preference or to a reference? (I'm not telling you either is right or wrong - just curious).

And, what's your favorite track on the disk with your midbass module?
Hey Archaea, haven't seen any posts of your in the VibSensor thread, don't know if you've looked at it or not. It's quite a rabbit hole. But there's some really good info there and one of the things that you can measure alongside your Frequency Response is Tactile Response and you can graph it on a curve just like FR. Much of the bass we experience is tactile and with a TR curve you can see if there are any spots in your system where the TR may be uneven. Sometimes these correlate, but often like Michael says below, the TR and FR curves are pretty independent. So picking up mid-bass TR without boosting FR can improve the experience, you just need a mid bass module of some sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I think you meant to address Brazle.
My MBM is in Buffalo (poor thing) for repair.
The recent work with VibSensor has shown that frequency response and tactile response are very often independent, so you can increase midbass tactile response ("chest slam") with a flat FR.
Michael
Michael, I am curious too, like Archaea if you run the MBM hot and which tracks are your favorite on this disc and why.
TBH when I first watched all the clips it was really hard for me to identify what the Mid-Bass highlights were in each one. Like Archaea most of them sounded pretty normal to me. Flat so to speak, without any obvious mid-bass highlights. So, I guess what I'm asking for or suggesting is that along with the tracks, maybe in the first post, you could include a description of each clip that describes the moments or events that correspond with mid-bass highlights and an explanation of what they should sound like or what we should listen for.

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post #40 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Most of that was addressed here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...demo-disc.html

You shouldn't be listening for it, you should be feeling it.
Which is why the next disc will be "tuned" a little lower.

And the one after that will be for VS, so it will probably be mostly ULF.


And my 1200D is being replaced under warranty but probably won't arrive until after New Year's.

Michael

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post #41 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 02:03 PM
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@Archaea , I am currently running my FV15 pair +10db hot and my 1200d pair +8db hot (Dyneq off) and absolutely love the bass spectrum the MBMs add in my theater. All movie just sounds much punchier. I have an ability to turn off both of my MBMs remotely at my LP and immediately feels something is missing/not right when they are off. I never thought my system was missing the punch before. With that said, i agree with you about the 'Orange....' clip, the Salvation clip at the very end (right before the movie title is shown) has some great mid bass that definitely was missing without my MBMs. I do have a couple new favorite demo of demo from this disc. Thanks Leo and LBNL for the time and efforts creating the disc.
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post #42 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Our pleasure. Glad you're enjoying it.
Michael

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post #43 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 03:00 PM
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So I've not read through the vib sensor thread, but I have definitely found over the last few years that having subwoofers IMMEDIATELY behind the listening position pointing towards the listener adds intense tactile feel at the same overall SPL levels. I fire mine directly into the back of the chair.


I'm using just three UM18-22 firing directly into the back of my three primary listening positions. When I've been exposed to a perhaps more traditional mid bass module - specifically a HSU MBM - I personally didn't like it. It is missing all the low wobble effect that I personally find most desirable about the nearfield feel. It seemed a shallow trick. I tried a 10" Infinity Kappa driver directly behind my seats in my theater and while enjoyable - was not nearly as enjoyable as sitting in front of the 18".
I know there has been some discussion that a high excursion low sensitivity driver like the UM18-22 that I'm using can't deliver the same punch as a pro driver --- Frankly - unless I just don't know what I'm missing and not liking the HSU MBM --- I don't want whatever it is I am missing if it's like that HSU MBM.


To each his own I suppose.


For nearfield tactile feel I much prefer the drunken wobble feel of the low frequency stuff, to the teeth buzzing feel of the higher bass stuff. Perhaps that's simply a personal preference. I still run my nearfield subs balanced though - eq'ed flat -- as that seems to be preferable to me than just having high bass making my teeth vibrate. That feels weird (uncomfortable) to me.


I guess I won't know unless I try it - but personally I think the nearfield UM18-22's can deliver as much tactile feel as I need, if so inclined - even running them flat FR. I used to have mini buttkickers on each chair but I removed them as they were inferior to the nearfield 18"'s feel in pretty much every characteristic.
I think this hobby is cyclical. Mid Bass modules were all the rave a few years back, fell out of favor a bit for full extension subs, and now it appears they are coming back into fashion. I do know some people really crave that intense vibration effect of higher midbass --- and that's cool. I think, personally, I'm just fine skipping this round of 'upgrades'. I like the full extension nearfield, because sitting on a concrete slab - having my sealed nearfield is the only way I feel the wobble of the deep ULF. Without the nearfield sealed, I' might as well not even bother trying to chase inaudible low frequency content. My eight 18" subs just can't deliver.
I've said it before, and I'd say it again. I started in my room with all eight 18" subs up front under the projector screen. I moved one sub back to my behind my listening position and quickly discovered that a single 18" nearfield - firing directly into my back could produce more subjective tactile feel than all eight up front. So if I had to chose for movie watching 1 sub behind me or the other 7 subs up front - I'd chose one of my subs directly behind me. (at least for cinema --- for music I like the subwoofer sound to originate from up front - and only the nearfield playing sounds like it's coming from behind me -- not ideal---- so I do 5 up front, and 3 behind, and I run the front subs usually about 1dB louder than the rear - and that seems to work out A-Ok for me for both music and movies.)


With nearfield - a single 18" sub delivers that deep tactile feel --- and delivers in spades. Maybe one of the local guys will install a quality MBM and I can give the midbass focused idea another try. Until then - I'm pleased with what I have.
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post #44 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 04:17 PM
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^^ Jonathan, We are not talking about replacing your 18's with mbm or mbm's, we are talking about adding an mbm or more on top of your 18"s (literally in your case) so you are not only getting the wobble affect you are currently have but also the enhanced punch in the chest feeling like @raynist picture below. He has 3 JTR215 speakers, 4S2 subs and 4 1200D's.

His couch is directly infront of the subs in picture
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post #45 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
the Salvation clip at the very end (right before the movie title is shown) has some great mid bass.



Yeah that's the part that I was referring to. There's a fair amount of impact there
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post #46 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Jonathan, We are not talking about replacing your 18's with mbm or mbm's, we are talking about adding an mbm or more on top of your 18"s (literally in your case) so you are not only getting the wobble affect you are currently have but also the enhanced punch in the chest feeling like @raynist picture below. He has 3 JTR215 speakers, 4S2 subs and 4 1200D's.

His couch is directly infront of the subs in picture
....Jebus!
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post #47 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 05:24 PM
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That would be fun to experience!

PS @raynist

Are you managing the different delays with minidsp or some other mechanism??? Assumedly the different amps -- speakerpower vs. whatever is in the MBMs would have slightly different delay times for impulse response matters.

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post #48 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post



This is amazing! Must sound incredible.

| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
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post #49 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
That would be fun to experience!

PS @raynist

Are you managing the different delays with minidsp or some other mechanism??? Assumedly the different amps -- speakerpower vs. whatever is in the MBMs would have slightly different delay times for impulse response matters.
Hi - audyssey XT32 handles the delays for the S2's and I plan to adjust the delays in the MBM's via the minidsp. I haven't played around with the delay setting yet. I plan to use Omnimic/REW over the next week to tweak everything. It sounds so good right now I hate to graph anything and then start down that rabbit hole!

I am adding in a new amp (Crest CC4000) so that each LCR has its own CC4000 amp. When I get that later this week I will re-run audyssey and start the tweaking. I don't want to do it before I get the amp as then I will have to do it again

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post #50 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 10:59 PM
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Ran some Omnimic sweeps tonight. Did some tweaking also and here is the current graph.



I noticed that any HPF I put on messed up the response below 40hz so I turned it off. I think the unit might have one built in. Also my LPF at 80hz was too steep. Changed it from a 48db to 24db per octave and it smoothed out the response above 80hz. Added a tiny bit of delay but it really didn't need anything.

Sounds even better now! Can adjust the levels easily in the mini dsp app to add a bit more midbass as needed.

Just found a longer USB cable to attach to my minidsp. Can quickly A/B turning the MBM's on and off. It sounds great without them, but when I turn them on gunshots have so much more weight to them. I added about a 2db increase in level from the above graph and think I will keep it there.

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post #51 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
So I've not read through the vib sensor thread, but I have definitely found over the last few years that having subwoofers IMMEDIATELY behind the listening position pointing towards the listener adds intense tactile feel at the same overall SPL levels. I fire mine directly into the back of the chair.


I'm using just three UM18-22 firing directly into the back of my three primary listening positions. When I've been exposed to a perhaps more traditional mid bass module - specifically a HSU MBM - I personally didn't like it. It is missing all the low wobble effect that I personally find most desirable about the nearfield feel. It seemed a shallow trick. I tried a 10" Infinity Kappa driver directly behind my seats in my theater and while enjoyable - was not nearly as enjoyable as sitting in front of the 18".
I know there has been some discussion that a high excursion low sensitivity driver like the UM18-22 that I'm using can't deliver the same punch as a pro driver --- Frankly - unless I just don't know what I'm missing and not liking the HSU MBM --- I don't want whatever it is I am missing if it's like that HSU MBM.


To each his own I suppose.


For nearfield tactile feel I much prefer the drunken wobble feel of the low frequency stuff, to the teeth buzzing feel of the higher bass stuff. Perhaps that's simply a personal preference. I still run my nearfield subs balanced though - eq'ed flat -- as that seems to be preferable to me than just having high bass making my teeth vibrate. That feels weird (uncomfortable) to me.


I guess I won't know unless I try it - but personally I think the nearfield UM18-22's can deliver as much tactile feel as I need, if so inclined - even running them flat FR. I used to have mini buttkickers on each chair but I removed them as they were inferior to the nearfield 18"'s feel in pretty much every characteristic.
I think this hobby is cyclical. Mid Bass modules were all the rave a few years back, fell out of favor a bit for full extension subs, and now it appears they are coming back into fashion. I do know some people really crave that intense vibration effect of higher midbass --- and that's cool. I think, personally, I'm just fine skipping this round of 'upgrades'. I like the full extension nearfield, because sitting on a concrete slab - having my sealed nearfield is the only way I feel the wobble of the deep ULF. Without the nearfield sealed, I' might as well not even bother trying to chase inaudible low frequency content. My eight 18" subs just can't deliver.
I've said it before, and I'd say it again. I started in my room with all eight 18" subs up front under the projector screen. I moved one sub back to my behind my listening position and quickly discovered that a single 18" nearfield - firing directly into my back could produce more subjective tactile feel than all eight up front. So if I had to chose for movie watching 1 sub behind me or the other 7 subs up front - I'd chose one of my subs directly behind me. (at least for cinema --- for music I like the subwoofer sound to originate from up front - and only the nearfield playing sounds like it's coming from behind me -- not ideal---- so I do 5 up front, and 3 behind, and I run the front subs usually about 1dB louder than the rear - and that seems to work out A-Ok for me for both music and movies.)


With nearfield - a single 18" sub delivers that deep tactile feel --- and delivers in spades. Maybe one of the local guys will install a quality MBM and I can give the midbass focused idea another try. Until then - I'm pleased with what I have.
You've been a huge influence for the subs that I've had and now have. Back when you had your two JTR caps I used to read about all the GTG's for subs and ended up getting a Cap 2400 because of it in my huge space. I loved it, and then moved it to NF, along with an FV15HP right behind me, like you and a few others were doing. I was flat out blown away by it!

I still think of you as the pioneer for the super nearfeild with the driver firing into your back, and I'm thankful you spread the word! Eventually I moved on from the Cap and FV behind me and went with 3 sealed 18's right behind me for that intense wobble effect on ULF and absolutely love it! Like yours probably do, they really deliver big time right up through the midbass TR and slam. So I highly doubt your missing anything, especially with your front sub array contributing a bit to the TR as well.

I didn't really think I was missing anything in the midbass chest slam department, but curiosity got the best of me and had to try the 1200D MBM. I like a lot of chest slam and that pressure feel in the chest cavity, and the MBM defiantly added to what the NF 18's were doing. I run the MBM lower than the NF 18's and it doesn't effect my FR very much, but adds to the chest slam.

Its pretty effective in my system because the MLP doesn't recline, so I'm able to place it right on top of the 18's right behind me kind of like raynist. The combo is pretty darn potent for movies and seems to add more punch than that buzzing feel that you were talking about. It can though if I'm not careful and I get to carried away with it above about 70hz. A miniDSP pretty much allows you to tailor is how ever you want though.

I don't know if it would add much in your setup since you reline back against your 18's, not really allowing for you to stack the mbm. You never know though if you were to add it somewhere pretty nearfield, it may add just a little bit more of that something special lol
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post #52 of 182 Old 12-23-2016, 11:33 PM
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Ran some Omnimic sweeps tonight. Did some tweaking also and here is the current graph.



I noticed that any HPF I put on messed up the response below 40hz so I turned it off. I think the unit might have one built in. Also my LPF at 80hz was too steep. Changed it from a 48db to 24db per octave and it smoothed out the response above 80hz. Added a tiny bit of delay but it really didn't need anything.

Sounds even better now! Can adjust the levels easily in the mini dsp app to add a bit more midbass as needed.

Just found a longer USB cable to attach to my minidsp. Can quickly A/B turning the MBM's on and off. It sounds great without them, but when I turn them on gunshots have so much more weight to them. I added about a 2db increase in level from the above graph and think I will keep it there.
2 great test scenes to get a feel for how well these work are in the Book of Eli. The first one is the shootout scene (ch 12 @ 52 min) and the assault on the house scene (ch 18 @ 78 min). Huge difference with the MBM's on/off. At reference the Gatling gun feels like it is taking over my heartbeat.
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post #53 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 06:21 AM
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Hmmmmm

Okay you have my attention.

@raynist . Were those sweeps you show before or after you turned off your HPF on the MBM to help address a phase issue? I ask because it looks like adding the HBM is increasing your FR all the way down to 7Hz when coupled with the S2. That doesnt make sense to me, right?

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post #54 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 07:07 AM
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Hmmmmm

Okay you have my attention.

@raynist . Were those sweeps you show before or after you turned off your HPF on the MBM to help address a phase issue? I ask because it looks like adding the HBM is increasing your FR all the way down to 7Hz when coupled with the S2. That doesnt make sense to me, right?
Hi - these were after I optimized the crossovers and delays. Very strange to me too. Putting any HPF (even at 20hz) is detrimental to the low end. If I get a chance I will add it back in and re-graph later today.
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post #55 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 07:57 AM
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Can quickly A/B turning the MBM's on and off. It sounds great without them, but when I turn them on gunshots have so much more weight to them.
Exactly my experience and i have been stating this in the MBM thread.
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post #56 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay you have my attention.
1200D is $299 shipped from a bunch of places.
$20 off at PE with TWCJ16.
Keep thinking.

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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #57 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 09:21 AM
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2 great test scenes to get a feel for how well these work are in the Book of Eli. The first one is the shootout scene (ch 12 @ 52 min) and the assault on the house scene (ch 18 @ 78 min). Huge difference with the MBM's on/off. At reference the Gatling gun feels like it is taking over my heartbeat.
Ray, try Terminator genisys bye bye skynet scene which I believe will be in midbass demo vol2. IMO, It has the most pronounced mid bass with the Mbms on. If you have the 2015 bass demo disc, both Terminator genisys clips on this disc has serious chess punch bass.
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post #58 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 09:39 AM
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Ray, try Terminator genisys bye bye skynet scene which I believe will be in midbass demo vol2. IMO, It has the most pronounced mid bass with the Mbms on. If you have the 2015 bass demo disc, both Terminator genisys clips on this disc has serious chess punch bass.
Thanks.

I have the blu ray, will try it out this weekend
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post #59 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 11:38 AM
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Hi - these were after I optimized the crossovers and delays. Very strange to me too. Putting any HPF (even at 20hz) is detrimental to the low end. If I get a chance I will add it back in and re-graph later today.
Here's what I suspect is happening:

You are playing the S2 and MBM subs out of phase to some degree. It'd be way too lucky to find those two amps have the same exact processing time to allow for identical impulse response.

That accounts for the reason there is discussion where people are saying they aren't measuring the subs being much louder but you are feeling much more intense tactile feel.

The measured SPL capture via the frequency response wouldn't look any louder with the subs out of phase, but the acoustic energy (based on the increased cone movement for both subs to generate that same SPL when fighting phase) would be much higher because the subs are having to work harder since they are fighting one another to a degree.

This theory also explains why the S2 and MBM when played together show a higher FR all the way down to 7hz because the S2 are actually playing louder when dialing in SPL when both are playing together in order to reach a similar SPL target level due to fighting the phase issue. Let's face it - those Behringer MBM shouldn't be adding a darn thing at 7-25 hz.

It's a reasonable explanation for a lot of this type of subjective comment. "More feel - same SPL"

When I put my rear bank out of phase with my main bank I get a heck of a lot more feel at the same measure SPL levels. Trouble is I can't go as loud overall - so I lose my dynamic peak ability since I'm using more of my headroom in just fighting phase.

That's my hypothesis anyway. And continuing - I expect that if you do manage to get them exactly in phase by manually adjusting timing with the minidsp - the extra tactile sensation will either decline (a lot) or be based solely on the closer proximity of the driver to your back - just like we've observed with a single sub (vs stacked sealed and MBM) - - - IE --- just based on the fact there is another cone moving in a different location firing higher physically location wise into your back.

To test this one way - you could connect your S2 subs to sub1 output, and your Behringer MBM to sub2 output (disconnect any subs at the front of the room - so you are just running the nearfield pairs) - then rerun Audyssey (check the distances Audyssey assigns) and give a subjective 'feel' test (listen).

----- just a guess.?.!.?

Discuss.

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Last edited by Archaea; 12-24-2016 at 11:42 AM.
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post #60 of 182 Old 12-24-2016, 12:13 PM
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Here's what I suspect is happening:

You are playing the S2 and MBM subs out of phase to some degree. It'd be way too lucky to find those two amps have the same exact processing time to allow for identical impulse response.

That accounts for the reason there is discussion where people are saying they aren't measuring the subs being much louder but you are feeling much more intense tactile feel.

The measured SPL capture via the frequency response wouldn't look any louder with the subs out of phase, but the acoustic energy (based on the increased cone movement for both subs to generate that same SPL when fighting phase) would be much higher because the subs are having to work harder since they are fighting one another to a degree.

This theory also explains why the S2 and MBM when played together show a higher FR all the way down to 7hz because the S2 are actually playing louder when dialing in SPL when both are playing together in order to reach a similar SPL target level due to fighting the phase issue. Let's face it - those Behringer MBM shouldn't be adding a darn thing at 7-25 hz.

It's a reasonable explanation for a lot of this type of subjective comment. "More feel - same SPL"

When I put my rear bank out of phase with my main bank I get a heck of a lot more feel at the same measure SPL levels. Trouble is I can't go as loud overall - so I lose my dynamic peak ability since I'm using more of my headroom in just fighting phase.

That's my hypothesis anyway. And continuing - I expect that if you do manage to get them exactly in phase by manually adjusting timing with the minidsp - the extra tactile sensation will either decline (a lot) or be based solely on the closer proximity of the driver to your back - just like we've observed with a single sub (vs stacked sealed and MBM) - - - IE --- just based on the fact there is another cone moving in a different location firing higher physically location wise into your back.

To test this one way - you could connect your S2 subs to sub1 output, and your Behringer MBM to sub2 output (disconnect any subs at the front of the room - so you are just running the nearfield pairs) - then rerun Audyssey (check the distances Audyssey assigns) and give a subjective 'feel' test (listen).

----- just a guess.?.!.?

Discuss.
Hi - I did reverse the phase in the MBM's through the minidsp and the FR was a mess (and bass sounded anemic) but unfortunately I didn't save the graphs. Later this week when I have to rerun audyssey I will try what you suggested regarding disconnecting the front subs. I will also run sweeps of just the MBM's.

In my case the MBM's do add to the SPL, at least at the level I am running them.

I have them hooked up by an xlr from my pre-pro running to one of the subs behind my couch. There is an output loop from that S2 to the other and then the loop out from that S2 to the minidsp input #1. From there each B1200 is hooked to outputs 1-4. I did add some delay (.2 ms) and it did make things looks a bit better. Adding more delay further screwed up the curve.
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