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post #31 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yea but the performance advantage the Cap 1400 has over the PB16 makes it worth 3000.00 if we are comparing SVS dollars vs performance...
Are you talking about the advantage below 15hz? What about the other 99% of the time?
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post #32 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
Are you talking about the advantage below 15hz? What about the other 99% of the time?
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
I'm confused here. Everyone is saying the Captivator has more output. But the more output is below 15hz. It seems like everyone agrees the captivator has more output only below 15 hz, and the svs has more output from 15-30 hz. Maybe I'm missing something, but I would prefer to have more output in a frequency that I will actually use. Am I the only one thinking that? Thats great that the captivator has more output below 15 hz. So I have to go to a specific scene, in a specific movie to be able to utilize it? What about the other 99% percent of the time? Like in any other movie that I watch, that has good bass in the 15-30 hz range, would one not want the pb16 in those cases (which would be 99% of the time?
The cap has a ton more output below 16 Hz, from 16-30Hz it's basically a toss (+/- 1dB and depends on 2 vs 3 ports open), and then 40Hz and up the cap beats the PB16 handily. For less money. Link. From that table there is NO frequency at which the PB16 beats the Cap1400 by more than 1dB, regardless of port plug configuration.
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post #33 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 09:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bpgunning View Post
The cap has a ton more output below 16 Hz, from 16-30Hz it's basically a toss (+/- 1dB and depends on 2 vs 3 ports open), and then 40Hz and up the cap beats the PB16 handily. For less money. Link. From that table there is NO frequency at which the PB16 beats the Cap1400 by more than 1dB, regardless of port plug configuration.
beat me to this. Also keep in mind the newer version of the 2017 Cap 1400 is the following:

he Captivator 1400 is completely redesigned for 2017.

New driver with 33mm Xmax for lower distortion and increased output.

New larger port for increased bottomend.

New cabinet with improved bracing and damping for lower distortion and better sound quality.

New dsp program with improved "LF adjust" that simulates a sealed sub roll off when turned all the way down.

The new Captivator 1400 outputs over 1db more on the bottomend and will be sent to Data-Bass in the spring.

According to the new design, the pb16ultra will not best the 1400 anywhere in the ranges. Also look at that difference under 16 htz
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post #34 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bpgunning View Post
The cap has a ton more output below 16 Hz, from 16-30Hz it's basically a toss (+/- 1dB and depends on 2 vs 3 ports open), and then 40Hz and up the cap beats the PB16 handily. For less money. Link. From that table there is NO frequency at which the PB16 beats the Cap1400 by more than 1dB, regardless of port plug configuration.

I got ya. So cap has an advantage below 15, which I don't really care about, because it is rarely used. SVS has advantage (barely) between 15-30, which I really care about, and the cap has the advantage again after that, which I somewhat care about, but not as much as 15-30. There there is the fact that all things being equal, the cap cost more (shipping/finishing/etc.)

Then the SVS has a 5 year warranty, and free return shipping if you don't like it. Here is what I value most, in order of importance to me.

1. 15-30hz output +1 SVS
2. warranty +1 SVS
3. cost +1 SVS (I know some will argue, but you have to consider shipping and finish)
4. finish/looks +1 SVS
5. 30hz and up +1 cap
6. 15 hz and below +1 cap
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post #35 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
I got ya. So cap has an advantage below 15, which I don't really care about, because it is rarely used. SVS has advantage (barely) between 15-30, which I really care about, and the cap has the advantage again after that, which I somewhat care about, but not as much as 15-30. There there is the fact that all things being equal, the cap cost more (shipping/finishing/etc.)

Then the SVS has a 5 year warranty, and free return shipping if you don't like it. Here is what I value most, in order of importance to me.

1. 15-30hz output +1 SVS
2. warranty +1 SVS
3. cost +1 SVS (I know some will argue, but you have to consider shipping and finish)
4. finish/looks +1 SVS
5. 30hz and up +1 cap
6. 15 hz and below +1 cap
Than go with the SVS if you are worried so much about it. Nobody is holding you back. SVS makes some very nice subs, but trust me, i've had SVS and now own two cap 1400s and the difference is something to behold. Before you start saying yea but you have two, I have ran a single cap 1400 and the difference is still in the Cap's favor.
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post #36 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bpgunning View Post
The cap has a ton more output below 16 Hz, from 16-30Hz it's basically a toss (+/- 1dB and depends on 2 vs 3 ports open), and then 40Hz and up the cap beats the PB16 handily. For less money. Link. From that table there is NO frequency at which the PB16 beats the Cap1400 by more than 1dB, regardless of port plug configuration.

Also, the graph you liked to, the two subs were measured by 2 different people? Hopefully data bass can get the PB16 Ultra to measure. Being measured by 2 different people, there are a lot of variables that could be different. I don't think any one person has measured both. Not that I can find anyways.
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post #37 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bpgunning View Post
The cap has a ton more output below 16 Hz, from 16-30Hz it's basically a toss (+/- 1dB and depends on 2 vs 3 ports open), and then 40Hz and up the cap beats the PB16 handily. For less money. Link. From that table there is NO frequency at which the PB16 beats the Cap1400 by more than 1dB, regardless of port plug configuration.
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Than go with the SVS if you are worried so much about this issue. Nobody is holding you back. Trust me, i have had SVS and now own two cap 1400s and people who own SVS does not know what they are missing.
I actually did. I have a pb16 ultra right now. But I didn't even know about JTR when I ordered it. I've only had it a week. So actually, what I am trying to figure out, is should I send the PB16 back, and get a JTR! I'm not worried about saving any money, I'll spend the whole 2500 I spend on the PB16 on a JTR. I'm just trying to figure out what everyones talking about. If it has more about below 15 hz, thats great, but realistically, will I ever use besides showing it off to a friend a couple times a year? Also, I do like the piano finish. So that puts the cap more expensive than the PB16. Just trying to figure it out. I had never heard of JTR until now. Not trying to make anyone mad. But everyone seems so anti SVS, but from what I can tell, its cheaper (all things being equal), and has an advantage below 15 hz.
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post #38 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Than go with the SVS if you are worried so much about it. Nobody is holding you back. SVS makes some very nice subs, but trust me, i've had SVS and now own two cap 1400s and the difference is something to behold. Before you start saying yea but you have two, I have ran a single cap 1400 and the difference is still in the Cap's favor.
You have had a PB16 Ultra?
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post #39 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
I got ya. So cap has an advantage below 15, which I don't really care about, because it is rarely used. SVS has advantage (barely) between 15-30, which I really care about, and the cap has the advantage again after that, which I somewhat care about, but not as much as 15-30. There there is the fact that all things being equal, the cap cost more (shipping/finishing/etc.)

Then the SVS has a 5 year warranty, and free return shipping if you don't like it. Here is what I value most, in order of importance to me.


1. 15-30hz output +1 SVS (According to the new 2017 Version, the Cap has over a 1 db difference more than the v1 version. Cap +1)
2. warranty +1 SVS (Cap has a 3 year warranty on parts, but they are built like a tank, birchwood instead of mdf, use better amps ICE (SVS old tired out Sledge (imports), and Caps are made in USA and SVS is made in China (they may be assembled here, but i guarantee you there components are not) Cap +1
3. cost +1 SVS (I know some will argue, but you have to consider shipping and finish) SVS is cheaper since components are China. CAp made in USA CAP +1 At this price point, if you are willing to drop over 2k on a sub, then why haggle your way for a couple 100 bucks, JMHO.
4. finish/looks +1 SVS I buy a sub for headroom and LFE, not for the piano gloss and phone featues. If you want something pretty in your room, get a poster. Cap +1
5. 30hz and up +1 cap
6. 15 hz and below +1 cap
Again, nobody is pressuring you to buy anything you don't want.

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post #40 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:13 AM
 
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You have had a PB16 Ultra?
My Magnolia has it set up in their dedicated theater room. Granted this may not be the best, but i had brought 2 of my blurays to compare.

What i have had before was a pb12plus/2.
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post #41 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Again, nobody is pressuring you to buy anything you don't want.
1. 15-30hz output +1 SVS (According to the new 2017, the Cap has over a 1 db difference more than the v1 version. Cap +1)
2. warranty +1 SVS (Cap has a 3 year warranty, but are built like a tank out of birchwood (mdf for svs), use better amps ICE (SVS old tired out Sledge, and CAps are made in USA and SVS is made in China Cap +1
3. cost +1 SVS (I know some will argue, but you have to consider shipping and finish) SVS is cheaper since components are China. CAp made in USA CAP +1
4. finish/looks +1 SVS I buy a sub for headroom and LFE, not for the piano gloss. If you want something pretty in your room, get a poster. Cap +1
5. 30hz and up +1 cap
6. 15 hz and below +1 cap


ok, the new ones have a 1db difference, so at best, that would put it equal, not +1
Are they made in the use, or assembled in the USA. Where to they get there parts from ?
I suppose looks could be subjective, so that is a wash, not + to either one. Although, there is not denying the pb16 looks better, even if thats not why you buy a sub.
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post #42 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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Or heck, for a few hundred more, why not just send back my pb16, and get the 2400 ulf?
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post #43 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
1. 15-30hz output +1 SVS (According to the new 2017, the Cap has over a 1 db difference more than the v1 version. Cap +1)
2. warranty +1 SVS (Cap has a 3 year warranty, but are built like a tank out of birchwood (mdf for svs), use better amps ICE (SVS old tired out Sledge, and CAps are made in USA and SVS is made in China Cap +1
3. cost +1 SVS (I know some will argue, but you have to consider shipping and finish) SVS is cheaper since components are China. CAp made in USA CAP +1
4. finish/looks +1 SVS I buy a sub for headroom and LFE, not for the piano gloss. If you want something pretty in your room, get a poster. Cap +1
5. 30hz and up +1 cap
6. 15 hz and below +1 cap


ok, the new ones have a 1db difference, so at best, that would put it equal, not +1
Are they made in the use, or assembled in the USA. Where to they get there parts from ?
I suppose looks could be subjective, so that is a wash, not + to either one. Although, there is not denying the pb16 looks better, even if thats not why you buy a sub.
All i know is that i have heard both with my own ears and like the cap 1400 enough that i bought two for my dedicated room. Like i said before, SVS is a good company and their PB16 is no slouch. Again, go with the SVS, it looks as if you are needing some justification. You can't go wrong either way, just do your research, choose what best suits your needs, and be happy.
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
Or heck, for a few hundred more, why not just send back my pb16, and get the 2400 ulf?
This is a game of diminishing returns. Again, do your research and if the 2400 justifies the price than go for it.
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post #45 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:29 AM
 
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I actually did. I have a pb16 ultra right now. But I didn't even know about JTR when I ordered it. I've only had it a week. So actually, what I am trying to figure out, is should I send the PB16 back, and get a JTR! I'm not worried about saving any money, I'll spend the whole 2500 I spend on the PB16 on a JTR. I'm just trying to figure out what everyones talking about. If it has more about below 15 hz, thats great, but realistically, will I ever use besides showing it off to a friend a couple times a year? Also, I do like the piano finish. So that puts the cap more expensive than the PB16. Just trying to figure it out. I had never heard of JTR until now. Not trying to make anyone mad. But everyone seems so anti SVS, but from what I can tell, its cheaper (all things being equal), and has an advantage below 15 hz.
Not sure why you are wanting to box the SVS up and exchange for a JTR when all you are doing is justifying your purchase already. I am just stating my stance and letting you know my thoughts. Go back and read to first page of this thread. This will tell you all you need to know and will answer all your questions. Good luck with whichever sub you go with

If you live anywhere near me, i would gladly let you demo my setup so you can make the determination w/ your own ears.
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post #46 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Again, nobody is pressuring you to buy anything you don't want.
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Not sure why you are wanting to box the SVS up and exchange for a JTR when all you are doing is justifying your purchase already. I am just stating my stance and letting you know my thoughts. Go back and read to first page of this thread. This will tell you all you need to know and will answer all your questions. Good luck with whichever sub you go with

If you live anywhere near me, i would gladly let you demo my setup so you can make the determination w/ your own ears.
I'm not wanting to box it up and send it back. But for a significant increase in output across the board, I would.
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post #47 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 11:00 AM
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I'm not wanting to box it up and send it back. But for a significant increase in output across the board, I would.

This forum causes a lot of second guessing among enthusiasts. You have 2 choices, box up the SVS and send it back and get the JTR or keep the SVS, be happy, and delete your account here as you will undoubtedly regret keeping it or sending it back for one reason or another.


The only way to know for sure is to get the JTR while you still have a return window for the SVS. How bad do you want to know the difference?
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post #48 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 11:18 AM
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Below is my comparison post from JTR thread; allow me to add a couple clarifications.
1. It's true that there are test-to-test variations. I don't get excited until difference is above 1-2 dB. For this particular comparison, 7 dB at 12 hz and 9 dB in upper bass is similar to bringing a rose to a gun fight .
2. Because Josh Ricci is Data-Bass and is now testing for Audioholics, this is about as close of a measurement comparison we are going to get, as far as test to test variation is concerned.

The advantage of Cap 1400 is easily predicted: both great products, both great engineering, but 16 inch driver simply cannot compete with 18 when it comes to bass output, distortion, and hence CEA-2010.


JTR Captivator 1400 vs SVS PB16 Ultra:

Result? From 16-31 hz, SVS and JTR are equal, but at ALL OTHER frequencies, advantage JTR: ultra low (+7 dB at 12 hz), mid, and high (from 40 hz on up, as much as 9 dB). The differences are shockingly large at upper bass range.

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My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Casablanca IVa Dirac Set Up Help HERE And some interesting audio diagrams.
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #49 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 11:20 AM
 
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I'm not wanting to box it up and send it back. But for a significant increase in output across the board, I would.
The only way you will ever get a significant increase over the Pb16U, of what you are wanting, you would have to go w/ the JTR 4000ULF or start utilizing 2 or 4 sub set up with your 16s. I have been on the main JTR section for awhile, and while i have read how much better the 2400 is, i am not going to sell my 1400s and replace w/ the 2400 out of buyers remorse. I am content with what i have and remember, there is "ALWAYS" something bigger and better. Except if you get the JTR 4000
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post #50 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 11:27 AM
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I'm not wanting to box it up and send it back. But for a significant increase in output across the board, I would.
Something else to consider,,,, If you have a strong set of floor standing mains then the PB16 will be great as the mains will pick up the slack above 50Hz. If your running smaller mains, or bookshelf mains, the Cap1400 will be a considerable upgrade in performance that you (will) notice more than a bit. Think about anywhere the Cap1400 has a 6db advantage or more, you would need two PB16's to match.

Once again without knowing your set up, if you have healthy mains the PB is very capable.
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post #51 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
This forum causes a lot of second guessing among enthusiasts. You have 2 choices, box up the SVS and send it back and get the JTR or keep the SVS, be happy, and delete your account here as you will undoubtedly regret keeping it or sending it back for one reason or another.


The only way to know for sure is to get the JTR while you still have a return window for the SVS. How bad do you want to know the difference?
Well, I think I will keep the SVS. But I will not be deleting my account.
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post #52 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 11:34 AM
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The only way you will ever get a significant increase over the Pb16U, of what you are wanting, you would have to go w/ the JTR 4000ULF or start utilizing 2 or 4 sub set up with your 16s. I have been on the main JTR section for awhile, and while i have read how much better the 2400 is, i am not going to sell my 1400s and replace w/ the 2400 out of buyers remorse. I am content with what i have and remember, there is "ALWAYS" something bigger and better. Except if you get the JTR 4000

Yeah, this is kinda what I am thinking also. I would hate to go through the trouble of sending it back, getting the cap, then realizing the only way I can see the difference is to measure it with my UMIK.
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Didn't Jeff just update the cap 1400 this year?
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post #54 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
1. 15-30hz output +1 SVS (According to the new 2017, the Cap has over a 1 db difference more than the v1 version. Cap +1)
2. warranty +1 SVS (Cap has a 3 year warranty, but are built like a tank out of birchwood (mdf for svs), use better amps ICE (SVS old tired out Sledge, and CAps are made in USA and SVS is made in China Cap +1
3. cost +1 SVS (I know some will argue, but you have to consider shipping and finish) SVS is cheaper since components are China. CAp made in USA CAP +1
4. finish/looks +1 SVS I buy a sub for headroom and LFE, not for the piano gloss. If you want something pretty in your room, get a poster. Cap +1
5. 30hz and up +1 cap
6. 15 hz and below +1 cap


ok, the new ones have a 1db difference, so at best, that would put it equal, not +1
Are they made in the use, or assembled in the USA. Where to they get there parts from ?
I suppose looks could be subjective, so that is a wash, not + to either one. Although, there is not denying the pb16 looks better, even if thats not why you buy a sub.

The cap 1400's driver, amp and enclosure are all made in the USA. You seem to be looking for justification of your purchase. There is nothing wrong with the PB16. But from 16-30hz is the only place where it keeps pace with the Cap 1400. Everywhere else the Cap 1400 stomps it. In addition to being cheaper, smaller and made in the USA using domestic components.
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Something else to consider,,,, If you have a strong set of floor standing mains then the PB16 will be great as the mains will pick up the slack above 50Hz. If your running smaller mains, or bookshelf mains, the Cap1400 will be a considerable upgrade in performance that you (will) notice more than a bit. Think about anywhere the Cap1400 has a 6db advantage or more, you would need two PB16's to match.

Once again without knowing your set up, if you have healthy mains the PB is very capable.

I don't have large floor standing speakers. I just have in wall speakers. Although they are good speakers, I have them crossed over at 80hz. My thinking is, I will never notice the advantage below 15 hz, because 99% of movies just don't go that low. I may notice the mid bass advantage though. I'll have to run some test tones from 50-80 and see if that is anything I really care about. I know I like the bass in the 15 or 20 to 30 hz range, and even up to 40, and there is just no advantage there.
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post #56 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
I don't have large floor standing speakers. I just have in wall speakers. Although they are good speakers, I have them crossed over at 80hz. My thinking is, I will never notice the advantage below 15 hz, because 99% of movies just don't go that low. I may notice the mid bass advantage though. I'll have to run some test tones from 50-80 and see if that is anything I really care about. I know I like the bass in the 15 or 20 to 30 hz range, and even up to 40, and there is just no advantage there.
There is a ton of chest slamming information in movies above 40Hz. I too never gave much thought years ago to the benefit of having awesome performance through a much wider range of frequency's, until i experienced it. Despite our views please don't get offended or feel pressured,,, sound as everything else is subjective. I think what many of us are saying is there is way more to an expensive sub than focusing on the 20/35Hz range. The effect in those other frequencies will be dramatically stronger with the JTR, thats all.
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Originally Posted by indebtbassfreak View Post
There is a ton of chest slamming information in movies above 40Hz. I too never gave much thought years ago to the benefit of having awesome performance through a much wider range of frequency's, until i experienced it. Despite our views please don't get offended or feel pressured,,, sound as everything else is subjective. I think what many of us are saying is there is way more to an expensive sub than focusing on the 20/35Hz range. The effect in those other frequencies will be dramatically stronger with the JTR, thats all.
Completely Agree!!!!
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Didn't Jeff just update the cap 1400 this year?
yes it is tuned 1 frequency lower w/ a 1db advantage throughout the curve.
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post #59 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 12:51 PM
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Another thing I don't get is, I thought you wanted a flat frequency response as possible. With the goal being to be within +/- 3db from low to high? For instance, My PB16 is within 5 db from 17hz all the way to 70 hz. I'm with 3db from 19 hz to 55hz. Measured with rew, I have a low of 106 db at 17 hz with a high point of 111 db at 32 hz, and then the next low point of 106 db being at 70 hz. So if the cap is equal to the PB16 at 32 hz, but 9 db louder above that, would I not just end up using PEQ to bring down those high points to get a flatter response? Everything I've read tells me that I don't want a 9 db difference. If I ran it through rew, it would tell me to bring down the 9 db peak correct?
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post #60 of 534 Old 02-24-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrazda View Post
I'm confused here. Everyone is saying the Captivator has more output. But the more output is below 15hz. It seems like everyone agrees the captivator has more output only below 15 hz, and the svs has more output from 15-30 hz. Maybe I'm missing something, but I would prefer to have more output in a frequency that I will actually use. Am I the only one thinking that? Thats great that the captivator has more output below 15 hz. So I have to go to a specific scene, in a specific movie to be able to utilize it? What about the other 99% percent of the time? Like in any other movie that I watch, that has good bass in the 15-30 hz range, would one not want the pb16 in those cases (which would be 99% of the time?
The frequency range used the most is 40-80hz where the captivator will still have significantly more output...and you should care about this frequency range because it is one if not the most important areas.
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Last edited by basshead81; 02-24-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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