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post #31 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
1. Is 10 Hz an absolute requirement, or just a number you picked to represent "really really low?" My Hsu VTF-2 will reach down to 16 Hz, it's not massive but it's end table-sized.
2. I agree with others, WAF vs. 10 Hz is never going to work. :}


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1. Most definitely NOT an absolute requirement. Amazing sound effects rely on midbass a lot. Witness Interstellar and San Andreas, 2 of the greatest and most violent sounding :-) movies of all times, and both predominantly mid bass. Having said that, ultra deep bass is difficult AND expensive, and is like the Mount Everest for a number of bassheads LOL.

2. Perhaps except for the clever JTR 2400ULF. This is a very short and unimposing subwoofer and if you are ingenous enough, easily pass for a seating bench to the wife . Turned sideways it is about 20 high, 20 deep, just wide at 40 (think seat bench).

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post #32 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
its not the veneer its the size ...
That's what she said...
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post #33 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
i have 2 cans and they sure sound good, but its not the same

room ~15x10x7? multipurpose with 1 door opening and a fireplace
i like to be turn it up to ?90-100db
currently have some K RP280 which are 43in tall and 16deep so thats kind of the tall & depth im looking at
i had 2 PSA xs15se in a smaller room and they were good but i could tell their limit.
i tried without sub but i cant do it any longer

cannga i couldnt find that chart you posted to see the HSU/SVS/PSA. Funk is pretty but likely $>JTR

Code:
    12    $/db    16        20        $$$    avg $/db
4000ulf    112     $31     116     $30     119     $29     3459     $30 
2400ulf    108     $24     112     $23     114     $23     2599     $23 
218ht    100     $25     112     $23     117     $22     2549     $23 
1400    96     $21     108     $19     113     $18     2059     $20 
118ht            105     $15     110     $14     1539     $14 
s2    100     $32     105     $31     112     $29     3249     $31 
s1    95     $22     100     $21     107     $20     2134     $21
I am very partial to ported subs for serious ULF. But, you do have a fairly small room, so you should be getting good room gain below at least 25Hz. If size is the most important factor, I might look at a pair of S1's. But, I do think you would need a pair. On the other hand, the Cap 2400 ULF is well within your price range. And, the dimensions of 22.5″ x 20.5″ x 39.5″are not that much more than you are used to. Of all of Jeff's current offerings, if I couldn't have a 4000 ULF, I would pick the 2400. And, you might eventually be able to add a second one at some point down the road.

Regards,
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #34 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
Funk is pretty but likely $>JTR
You can save a bunch of money and skip the fancy veneer finish if that's not important to you,
Drop the 18.0 curved cab and go with an 18.0SE in matt black saves more $$$ too.

Also available in a Master/Slave pair with 2400w/4800w peak each,
(both with fully independent built in AllDSP control for each unit...)


http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p13/Fu..._-_18.0SE.html

20"x20"x20"



At Least give Nathan a call (or email) to get a quote, (contact info available on his website)
it never hurts to ask questions, and he may make you an offer you can't refuse.

...I started with a simple quote for the 18.0SE master/slave pair in flat black
and it was more affordable than I first thought, so I started adding upgrades with full WAF support

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post #35 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post

2. Perhaps except for the clever JTR 2400ULF. This is a very short and unimposing subwoofer and if you are ingenous enough, easily pass for a seating bench to the wife . Turned sideways it is about 20 high, 20 deep, just wide at 40 (think seat bench).
NEat idea, but if you put on Interstellar or Transformers or the like, and the wife sits on it,... I'm thinking she may not move all night. "Play that scene again, dear. Please."


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post #36 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post

cannga i couldnt find that chart you posted to see the HSU/SVS/PSA. Funk is pretty but likely $>JTR

Code:
	12	$/db	16		20		$$$	avg $/db
4000ulf	112	 $31 	116	 $30 	119	 $29 	3459	 $30 
2400ulf	108	 $24 	112	 $23 	114	 $23 	2599	 $23 
218ht	100	 $25 	112	 $23 	117	 $22 	2549	 $23 
1400	96	 $21 	108	 $19 	113	 $18 	2059	 $20 
118ht			105	 $15 	110	 $14 	1539	 $14 
s2	100	 $32 	105	 $31 	112	 $29 	3249	 $31 
s1	95	 $22 	100	 $21 	107	 $20 	2134	 $21

I looked at Funk and Seaton, both outstanding companies, but neither makes ported 18 incher, and I specifically want a ported subwoofer so the range of 15-30 hz doesn't drop off. PSA is another excellent company, but its ported 18 inchers have not been tested by Data-Bass so detailed CEA-2010 are not available. Hsu doesn't make 18 inch subwoof AFAIK. Same with SVS and there's comparison against PB16 Ultra on first page of JTR link in my signature.

Can't go wrong with any of these outstanding companies, but based on available data, the JTR Cap 1400 is the king for $1900 subwoofer as far as performance metrics is concerned.

BTW, as usual I agree with Mike (Thomas), if you have the space & budget, Cap 2400 is kinda nice :-). I get asked often in PM which JTR is best, and I always like to compare picking JTR subwoof to traveling to Italy: there are multiple fantastic choices, but there is no "best" choice.

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Regards, Can
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post #37 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
If you want to go 18 port, there is no other logical way besides the approximate 22x20 footprint. Cut of 1-2 inches here sacrifices performance without gaining much smaller footprint.

Height of 30 is par for the course for this performance level, and YMMV but to me height tends to be the most available space in typical hometheaters.

30 height is also ideal IMHO because less height means less performance, and more height becomes imposing as typical listeners' ear and eye height is at 36".
I don't need a explanation of reasoning on how the Cap1400's size is optimal. It is proportional for it's performance level no doubt, but it's still large and not WAF for most.
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post #38 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
If you want to go 18 port, there is no other logical way besides the approximate 22x20 footprint. Cut of 1-2 inches here sacrifices performance without gaining much smaller footprint.

Height of 30 is par for the course for this performance level, and YMMV but to me height tends to be the most available space in typical hometheaters.

30 height is also ideal IMHO because less height means less performance, and more height becomes imposing as typical listeners' ear and eye height is at 36".
I don't need a explanation of reasoning on how the Cap1400's size is optimal. It is proportional for it's performance level no doubt, but it's still large and not WAF for most.
Especially given it's just about twice as big as an 18.0c.
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post #39 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 03:42 PM
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Can we at least try being respectful of our female members and females in general?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
http://www.crowsontech.com/go/crowso...opDefault.aspx

I just installed a pair of Crowson motion actuators this weekend, and they're an absolute bargain for the amount of infrasonic bass they deliver! This is the first time I've experienced solid, bone rattling output well into the single digits (only amplifier limited). These things are truly incredible, and they should have extremely high WAF, given they're nearly hidden once installed.
I think this is best answer so far. Even if you can afford JTR 2400ULFs I believe 10Hz is most convincing delivered by Tactile Tranducers/Motion Actuators.

Let the Crowsons handle 10Hz and then you can get dual ported 18s. The PSA V1801s are the most wife friendly size wise IMO. I love the JTR Cap1400 in a premium finish. I'm not a big fan of it in flat black, just looks a bit awkward IMO.

I think it is a mistake to ignore companies like PSA and Seaton that do not invest in DB testing (HSU, Rythmik, Seaton, PSA, DSS). I also believe Funk and DSS will build custom build you a vented sub upon request.

I think Tom V's statement below rings true. I doubt there is a hotter selling sub than the PSA V1801 right now. It so easy to measure things for yourself with REW and plenty of owners of each brand here on AVS with real world exoerience and measurements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There's always a fine line balancing things like size, performance, price, etc.

I've been at this since the 1990s and the number of potential customers telling me "I wish your stuff was significantly larger and you didn't refine the aesthetics to such a degree---that would be worth a dB or two to me" is around...well... zero. On the other hand, every day, EVERY DAY I get multiple folks in chat/emails/phone asking "Hey, I love your stuff but its WAY too big...when are you coming out with a smaller XYZ model?"

Doing the biggest box with the heaviest magnets was never really something I worry about---a lot of that just falls on the wrong side of diminishing returns...

Tom V.
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post #40 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 05:51 PM
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^^^

I like all of Marc's posts, and this one is no exception. But, I'm not sure about Crowson's being the best solution, in this case. The OP is in a room size of 15' by 10' by 7'. That's only 1050^3. I did a quick room mode calculation, and by the time he gets down to 10Hz, he is going to have an amazing amount of room gain. So, he just needs to have a sub, or subs, that get down to 10Hz with enough SPL to be meaningful. An S2, or a Cap 2400 ULF, would have enough SPL left at 10Hz to be very meaningful, with a sufficient sub boost added. And, the S2 dimensions are even closer to what he is looking for at 40″x21″x18″.

I think that a good comparable PSA sub might be the S3600, with dimensions of 20” x 28” x 24”. I agree that Tom also makes very good subs, and I wouldn't disregard them, either. But, to me, the S2 and the Cap 2400 ULF may be falling into a real sweet spot for the OP. And, he can always try Crowson's later, if he wants to. But, I would start with the right sub, if I were he.

Regards,
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post #41 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 07:00 PM
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Shakers do just that shake. There is more to bass than shaking the furniture. The shakers will not cause pressure, sound, and the skin feeling from bass. If one can get 10hz from a sub and be high enough to matter than he should. This is a small room and he will get everything from 10hz with a sub.
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post #42 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Can we at least try being respectful of our female members and females in general? ...
The very definition of "WAF" is a stereotype. If we're going be PC, perhaps we should say "Aesthetically sensitive household member" instead.

I'm partly serious. I've seen posts by young people who want to put certain speakers in their room and say something like, "But my dad isn't keen on the idea." It's not just a wife or even female trait.



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post #43 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 08:16 PM
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I'm not trying to be the PC police here. I simply felt that the visual of the pantless woman squating over the subwoofer was at the line if not over.
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absolutely beautiful!
daaaaumn!!!!!
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post #45 of 130 Old 02-12-2017, 08:40 PM
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I think I confused this thread with one or even two others. Somewhere along the line I thought the OP wanted ported 18s that had to be DB tested. My recommendation of V1801s was somewhat out of left field. (S1801s makes more sense)

That being said, my room is small and sealed. It is also on a 6" raised floor upstairs. I have 4 Earthquake mini TTs (with lower limit of 10Hz) attached to each chair in the first row. Because my floor is so live (I don't use isolating feet) the entire room is energized and I feel the floor vibrating my feet. The bar table and stools behind the main row also feel the effects of the TTs. I would trade my sealed subs for ported before I traded TTs for more/bigger sealed subs. The greater tactile feel at lower SPL levels takes my experience to another level! I doubt my TTs hold a candle to Crowson TMAs.

I believe a setup of TTs/TMAs and a pair of sealed subs is the best spousal approval factor solution.
Spoiler!

Since a premium finish in not a requirement that opens up a ton of options utilizing sealed 18s.
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post #46 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 05:55 AM
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David at Deep Sea Sound has made his 24 in an end table configuration. Maybe this could satisfy both of you?
As an owner of one of his 24's I can personally assure you the performance is incredible.

Grady
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post #47 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 06:40 AM
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need 10 hurtz what to buy, WAF

Nothing to see here. [edited]

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post #48 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 10:36 AM
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Hmmm,

10 Hz requires a lot of air movement to actually hear it--won't happen. Sure, I'd love 10Hz but my wife is not into it so much. She is pretty cool but has set size limits. Sure, I can cut a hole into the wall and vent massive subwoofers into the living room as the attached garage is on the other side--but the juice is not worth the squeeze.

If you wife determines everything when it comes to the living room, go to another room. To do HT right, it must meet specific requirements for SPL and extension so you need some serious air pumps. You can get it though, just need to have it custom made with infinite baffle subs in the roof, those fan type subwoofers, multiple subs venting through the floor, walls etc. It is not an off-the-shelf fix.

I'm going to build two more subwoofers to add to my existing one. Yes, I said BUILD because I can't order end tables with subs built in of a certain size/finish to match the room. My center channel was built to slide directly into the furniture (stealth) she likes the idea. If you make a custom piece of furniture, the WAF goes up max points so you can have both. The downside is you have to build it, finish it, tune it and do it all yourself. I built a pair of mains last year (large bookshelves) and made a mock up of them in cardboard so my wife had a visual. Built the things, made custom colored grill cloth, magnetic mounts and so on with great results. Her friends were impressed, very understated and the perfect size to fit the room. For me, I got THX reference levels and more while being able to change grill cloth any time room decor requires that sort of thing.

As Tom pointed out, most plug and play subwoofers tend to be compromised on the side of being too small. Although a larger enclosure will increase the low end performance--it drives up the costs and if people don't buy it, you can't keep the lights on. I'll be building 15" subs with 6 cubic foot internal air space, that is "large" for "only a 15" so will lose marketing points and sales. Sure, it gives the best performance but if you can't sell them, no point in trying.

If you have to absolutely have 10Hz and hear it clearly, that is an incredible amount of air to move and the law of physics can't be violated. Back when they made the movie Blackhawk Down, it took 22 subwoofers in the studio--they were BagEnd ELF 18" sealed subs with thousands of watts of power to get that 8Hz rotor blade to spec. Forget about WAF, you have enough problems trying to get to 10Hz before ever thinking of how to make it stylish.
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post #49 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 10:41 AM
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seems the jtr 4000 ulf will not pass the WAF ...
what's left ?
dual sealed something?
~3000
It will be easier to get a new wife....
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post #50 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post

If you have to absolutely have 10Hz and hear it clearly

Silly question.... Do we HEAR 10Hz or do we FEEL 10Hz?


My Deep Sea Sound 24 plays 10Hz but I think the sound I hear is my house, kitchen cabinetry, hanging artwork, dishes, glasses and anything not bolted to the floor rattling.
It is AWESOME!


This weekend my neighbors were out of town and we share a common wall (townhouse). This gave me the go ahead to turn up the volume and truly enjoy movie night. The Deep Sea Sound 24 literally turned on my neighbors motion sensitive flood light when I played the opening scene to Edge Of Tomorrow. I had to do it again later to confirm and ITS TRUE. What an incredible subwoofer.


Keep in mind I live in a "Florida Stilt" style home with living quarters above the open bottom level, if I were on a concrete pad it would probably be a different story.

Grady

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post #51 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 04:50 PM
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It is all about the room. In my room, which is bigger than the OP, the JTR Cap S2 would hit reference at 10 hz.
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post #52 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
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It is all about the room. In my room, which is bigger than the OP, the JTR Cap S2 would hit reference at 10 hz.
It would also come very close to fitting the physical profile the OP mentioned, and his budget, as well. Either that, or the Cap 2400 ULF, with similar dimensions and cost, would be my recommendation.

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post #53 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 05:11 PM
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Yes, I agree with either.
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post #54 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 07:01 PM
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The cheapest way to 10hz is with as many SI's UM's or FI 18's as you can afford, in an IB.
You can hide this in the attic.

Or, 1 RE 18 or SI-24 in a sealed box. Not nearly as efficient/cheap as IB though.

10hz horn hidden in the attic in another option. Sounds big, difficult to build/design, and hard to lift.

Beyond that, you have no hope of reaching 10hz (audibly). You simply don't have the needed displacement, i.e. a large ugly array of subs in the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
i like to be turn it up to ?90-100db
Not loud enough. 100db worth of 10hz is about 0db worth of perceived SPL. It will be masked by any other sound in the room.
You'd have to have a 20db hot infrasonic house curve and enough displacement to not bottom out the drivers at about +120db.

Note: the red line is 0db equivalent.



You'd need 130-150db @ 10hz to really perceive it with any authority.

What are you listening to, Space Shuttle launches, EOT Intro and BassILoveU on infinite-repeat?

You sound like me (Is that a good-thing or a bad-thing? )

15hz

14hz Woofer-Cooker basshead-remix

12hz

10hz @ 5000watts

10hz @ 10,000watts

7hz @ 16,000watts. My GoPro is clipping like crazy on those 7hz burps. It can't handle this much bass.

2hz (I chickened out... U do it! )
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post #55 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
It is all about the room. In my room, which is bigger than the OP, the JTR Cap S2 would hit reference at 10 hz.
What are we considering reference? 115dB at MLP? >120dB for bass management headroom? JTR S2 vs PSA T18 would be an interesting shootout, especially with PSA's newer 18" driver.

I still contend that Tactile Tranducers/Motion Actuators allow ULF experience without insane SPL levels.
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post #56 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 07:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marc alexander View Post
can we at least try being respectful of our female members and females in general?
I think this is best answer so far. Even if you can afford jtr 2400ulfs i believe 10hz is most convincing delivered by tactile tranducers/motion actuators.

Let the crowsons handle 10hz and then you can get dual ported 18s. The psa v1801s are the most wife friendly size wise imo. I love the jtr cap1400 in a premium finish. I'm not a big fan of it in flat black, just looks a bit awkward imo.

I think it is a mistake to ignore companies like psa and seaton that do not invest in db testing (hsu, rythmik, seaton, psa, dss). I also believe funk and dss will build custom build you a vented sub upon request.

I think tom v's statement below rings true. I doubt there is a hotter selling sub than the psa v1801 right now. It so easy to measure things for yourself with rew and plenty of owners of each brand here on avs with real world exoerience and measurements.
Did you just assume their gender?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by audacious nick; 02-13-2017 at 07:34 PM.
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post #57 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 09:13 PM
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All the op probably needs is a better pair of subs (18's, 21's, 24's etc).
50-300hz is for chest thump
<30hz is for earthquakes, door slams and explosions.

A door slam has bass all the way to DC. Every time you get in your car, you hit yourself with single digit bass in the 100-120db range. It's not overly loud, it doesn't hurt nor cause earbleeds nor brown notes.

Shockwaves and sonic-booms from guns, jets and explosives also have bass all the way to DC too, it's more like a square-wave than anything else. But most of what you hear from that is in the 40-4000hz range.

There are only a handful of songs with bass below 20hz.
For most multi-hour movies, there is only 1-5 seconds of infrasonics, maybe 3 minutes TOPS, out of hours and hours of film.

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post #58 of 130 Old 02-13-2017, 10:09 PM
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Did you just assume their gender?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=50708873
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post #59 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What are we considering reference? 115dB at MLP? >120dB for bass management headroom? JTR S2 vs PSA T18 would be an interesting shootout, especially with PSA's newer 18" driver.

I still contend that Tactile Tranducers/Motion Actuators allow ULF experience without insane SPL levels.
No CEA-2010 from T18, but from looking at long term compression sweeps, I would predict (old) PSA T18 cannot match JTR S2's output below 40 hz. (T18 has down sloping compression curves below 50 hz, check 100 dB sweep, and max dB at 20 hz). The JTR S2's advantage is its large enclosure and more robust driver (higher motor strength, xmax 33). New T18: unless there is a drastic change in driver or volume, is unlikely to fare better.

For topic of this thread, *IF* you want 10 hz in a sealed enclosure, the JTR S2 is about the highest performance commercial product for hometheaters at this point. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...rt=desc&mfr=-1

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
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JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #60 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 03:59 AM
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bulls,
Why not trade up or add to your existing subs with a PSA T18HT? They have on in the outlet center, and you could always just pop into chat.
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