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post #61 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 08:51 AM
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Not sure how big the Mariana 24 is, but that is another option.

Reference is 115 dB for LFE.
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post #62 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 11:04 AM
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Post #214 shows the "end table" configuration of the Deep Sea Sound Mariana 24.




https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...-thread-8.html
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post #63 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 11:12 AM
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Last Sunday afternoon, bulls came to my house for a quick audition of my Cap 1400 in my 2400 cu ft family room that opens up to the kitchen. Feeling that a pair of PSA XS-15SEs should be potent in his 15x10x7 room, I asked him what he wants to achieve upgrading from dual PSA XS-15SE. He said that he sold his dual PSA XS-15SEs in Texas so I believe he is starting from scratch. We listened at his usual MV of -19 to the bassy demo clips from Interstellar, Edge of Tomorrow, Olympic Has Fallen, War of Worlds, and Tron Legacy. Let's hear what bulls thinks.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
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post #64 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airgrady View Post
Post #214 shows the "end table" configuration of the Deep Sea Sound Mariana 24.




https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...-thread-8.html
Wow, two of those would be perfect behind my chairs!


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Here are a couple pictures of the Mariana 24SR with side table option that I will be taking to T.H.E. Show Newport in Irvine, CA (LA). Hope some of you in the area will come by and give it a listen in room 413...and say hi to us.


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post #65 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
For topic of this thread, *IF* you want 10 hz in a sealed enclosure, the JTR S2 is about the highest performance commercial product for hometheaters at this point. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...rt=desc&mfr=-1
I believe you re: S2 vs T18 (yes there is a new PSA 18" driver with more output below 40Hz), but DB is not the end-all-be-all. I have a hard time believing the S2 is a match for the Mariana 24s!
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post #66 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I believe you re: S2 vs T18 (yes there is a new PSA 18" driver with more output below 40Hz), but DB is not the end-all-be-all. I have a hard time believing the S2 is a match for the Mariana 24s!
It probably is a close match.

On data-bass the S2 had a 10hz burst measurement of 97.3 dB.
The 20cuft enclosure with the SI HS24 and Powersoft K20 amp had a 10hz burst measurement of 98.2 dB, a difference of 0.9 dB in favor of the DIY HS24.

The DSS Mariana 24 enclosure is approximately half the size of the enclosure tested on DB (it of course uses the same driver). It also utilizes the same speakerpower torpedo amp in the S2.
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post #67 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I believe you re: S2 vs T18 (yes there is a new PSA 18" driver with more output below 40Hz), but DB is not the end-all-be-all. I have a hard time believing the S2 is a match for the Mariana 24s!

Mariana is a great company and the 24 is a monster. You are right this would be quite a match - S2 has larger cone area, but Mariana (the larger model) has larger volume enclosure. See post above, and notice I stated "at this price point" - the Mariana is $4000, S2 $3000.

BTW if I were to chase 10 hz I would go after the $3200 JTR 4000ULF. This subwoofer's Fb *is* 10 hz; it is made to chase 10 hz. CEA-2010 @ 10 hz for the ULF 4000ULF is 108 dB (the highest 10 hz figure ever published by Data-Bass).

Have never said JTR is end all and be all, more often "at any given price point, a JTR subwoofer would/should be the commercial subwoofer with the highest performance metrics." Anyway, I would love for Mariana to be tested by Data-Bass, released numbers would enhance competition for sure, and competition ends up benefiting customers, us.

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post #68 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 01:30 PM
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WAF was the OP's reasoning behind the kybosh on the 4000ulf. Of all the behemoths discussed in this thread, the Deep Sea Sound end table configuration Mariana 24 is the only thing I can think of that may work in his situation and still provide 10Hz output. Put a large doily and a table lamp on it!
JTR, SEATON, DSS, PSA, FUNK etc all make great subs, it's the WAF that is the issue as I understand it.
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post #69 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
Have never said JTR is end all and be all
Sorry, I meant data-bass.com is not the end be all. I recognize the top performers JTR produces at a great price. I still kick myself for missing out on the Cap1400 SoCal group buy!

However, a numbers advantage on paper (or DB) won't necessarily make a difference in home.

The JTRs also look great with premium finishes, but that drives the price up. Some models are a bit awkward to me in the basic finish.

However, sometimes you have to sacrifice some performance for form factor. I went with small, sealed 15 cubes to start because I wanted placement flexibility. Had I a bigger room with more placement options I would have either gone ported, sealed dual driver 15s, or sealed 18s (PSA had no S1800 when I ordered).

I think in general, JTR always holds a performance advantage while PSA holds a price & form factor/WAF advantage in the basic black finishes. JTR's biggest plus to me is the wide variety of premium finishes available on any of their models. If only I had more disposable income! I am imagining two Cap1400s along with a 4000 or 2400 ULF. Now that would be nirvana!
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post #70 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Last Sunday afternoon, bulls came to my house for a quick audition of my Cap 1400 in my 2400 cu ft family room that opens up to the kitchen. Feeling that a pair of PSA XS-15SEs should be potent in his 15x10x7 room, I asked him what he wants to achieve upgrading from dual PSA XS-15SE. He said that he sold his dual PSA XS-15SEs in Texas so I believe he is starting from scratch. We listened at his usual MV of -19 to the bassy demo clips from Interstellar, Edge of Tomorrow, Olympic Has Fallen, War of Worlds, and Tron Legacy. Let's hear what bulls thinks.
@bulls I am in Corona (71 and 91 FWY junction) if you want to checkout sealed subs + Tactile Tranducers. Maybe @chucky7 can bring over his Cap1400 and see how it gets along with the TTs!
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post #71 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 03:22 PM
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Bulls - looks like you're getting a lot of good recommendations. One question that I don't see mentioned that is an early question I ask of prospective customers is what type of floor you're on. If concrete, it may not make as much sense to try getting the 10 Hz reproduction as it won't have the same impact as on a wood floor. I've measured my 24s in several customer's rooms and all but 1 has been flat to 7 Hz before rolling off (the other one was a single 24 in a corner that didn't start rolling off until 6 Hz). But there is a marked difference between the rooms with concrete floors vs wood floors with the latter providing the additional benefit of being incredibly tactile.

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post #72 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 04:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Bulls - looks like you're getting a lot of good recommendations. One question that I don't see mentioned that is an early question I ask of prospective customers is what type of floor you're on. If concrete, it may not make as much sense to try getting the 10 Hz reproduction as it won't have the same impact as on a wood floor. I've measured my 24s in several customer's rooms and all but 1 has been flat to 7 Hz before rolling off (the other one was a single 24 in a corner that didn't start rolling off until 6 Hz). But there is a marked difference between the rooms with concrete floors vs wood floors with the latter providing the additional benefit of being incredibly tactile.
When can we expect to see your subs on DataBass?
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post #73 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
When can we expect to see your subs on DataBass?
Good question. Due to weather, Josh Ricci doesn't test during the winter but I'll see him this weekend and that will be a discussion point. I hope later this spring or early summer depending on his BUSY schedule. I hope to have tested, the Mariana 18, Mariana 24, and a future model to address those on concrete that I've usually pushed toward a competitor. Unless they want near-field subs as well or are willing to put down a couple sheets of OSB over the concrete as testing I've done shows even this little bit greatly increases the tactility of the bass.

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post #74 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I believe you re: S2 vs T18 (yes there is a new PSA 18" driver with more output below 40Hz), but DB is not the end-all-be-all. I have a hard time believing the S2 is a match for the Mariana 24s!

The T18 is not getting the 1801 driver upgrade. It won't work in the current enclosure. And yes, Data-Bass is the end all be all for measuring subs. Ricci is very well regarded and is the accepted authority on measuring subs. If Ricci says a sub will produce X amount of DBs at X frequency, you can be assured it will.

If you were implying that burst numbers don't necessarily make a good sounding sub, you are correct, but all of the subs mentioned have been proven to have good sound quality, so it usually does come down to a numbers game.
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post #75 of 130 Old 02-14-2017, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post
It probably is a close match.

On data-bass the S2 had a 10hz burst measurement of 97.3 dB.
The 20cuft enclosure with the SI HS24 and Powersoft K20 amp had a 10hz burst measurement of 98.2 dB, a difference of 0.9 dB in favor of the DIY HS24.

The DSS Mariana 24 enclosure is approximately half the size of the enclosure tested on DB (it of course uses the same driver). It also utilizes the same speakerpower torpedo amp in the S2.
Does THD REALLY matter at 10hz? The sustained output numbers show a 3-4db advantage from 10-30hz.
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post #76 of 130 Old 02-15-2017, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by amnesia0287 View Post
Does THD REALLY matter at 10hz? The sustained output numbers show a 3-4db advantage from 10-30hz.
It can. But it depends greatly on room gain. Lets say for example a sub can do 92db ground plane with say around 17% 3rd harmonic distortion(CEA 2010 pass), but it can do 98db with 100% 3rd harmonic distortion. This means that when passing with 92db at 10hz it is also producing 77db at 30hz, this coincides well with when you can start to hear it, being about 15db down from the 10hz output, but when producing 98db at 10hz it is also producing 98db at 30hz, this is very audible and sounds quite bad, however once you get into a room if you have a decent amount of gain, say 15db at 10hz, and 0db at 30hz, the room will boost up the 10hz output but not 30hz, so all of the sudden with the sub at max your back to passing CEA distortion level, so the large discrepancy in passing vs non passing output disappears. However in a space with little or no room gain you will not get this benefit so you will want to pay more attention to low end distortion. In general though a sub with the common rising distortion under 30-40hz put in a room with average gain that will be counteracted to a large degree. What really matters most is upper end distortion that is not helped by the room, and up in the 80-100hz range the harmonics are in the very noticeable 160-300hz range, so as little as 3-5 % distortion around 80-100hz can be quite noticeable.

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post #77 of 130 Old 02-15-2017, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@bulls I am in Corona (71 and 91 FWY junction) if you want to checkout sealed subs + Tactile Tranducers. Maybe @chucky7 can bring over his Cap1400 and see how it gets along with the TTs!
im still stuck for decision, ported/sealed. 18 single or double

its up to chucky7, i'm always free for speaker demos !!! i could even pick him up ... too bad i dont have a sub (yet) to add
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post #78 of 130 Old 02-15-2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
im still stuck for decision, ported/sealed. 18 single or double

its up to chucky7, i'm always free for speaker demos !!! i could even pick him up ... too bad i dont have a sub (yet) to add
I will send you PM

We still don't know the details of your room. Dimensions, sealed or open concept, current speaker layout, etc.
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post #79 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I will send you PM

We still don't know the details of your room. Dimensions, sealed or open concept, current speaker layout, etc.
First page about 25 posts in....

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls View Post
i have 2 cans and they sure sound good, but its not the same

room ~15x10x7? multipurpose with 1 door opening and a fireplace
i like to be turn it up to ?90-100db
currently have some K RP280 which are 43in tall and 16deep so thats kind of the tall & depth im looking at
i had 2 PSA xs15se in a smaller room and they were good but i could tell their limit.
i tried without sub but i cant do it any longer
cannga i couldnt find that chart you posted to see the HSU/SVS/PSA. Funk is pretty but likely
]
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post #80 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 08:04 AM
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^^^Thanks. I had forgotten. It was late. (Getting old sucks!)
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post #81 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 08:42 AM
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My Twin 18.0 Funks arrived yesterday,

No time to move them into position yet or run them, but they sure do look Purty







More pic's posted here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post50804481

Basement Room is 14'-6" deep x 16'-9" wide, open ceiling with exposed TJI joists ~9' high (2185^3 ft.)
Concrete basement floor, all wood framed walls, insulated and covered in fabric/velvet (no drywall).

To help with tactile I have a pair of 15" ported Velodyne subs (1000w/ea)
Near-Field directly behind my MLP, each one aimed about 12" from my kidneys

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JVC DLA X750 4K Projector | 120" Powered Drop Screen | 65" LG 65B6P OLED | Panasonic DMP UB900 | Oppo UDP 203 | HDFury Vertex
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post #82 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 09:11 AM
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I read this whole thread hoping there would be more discussion around the "need" for 10hz and enjoyed the discussion about how it is impossible to execute in a practical manner for most people... The need is debatable but the impracticality overrules the need/want and may have just helped me decide to limit my hz-hunt to around 15. Not what I expected to gain but valuable none-the-less
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post #83 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
My Twin 18.0 Funks arrived yesterday,

No time to move them into position yet or run them, but they sure do look Purty



More pic's posted here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post50804481



STUNNING..... Simply stunning
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post #84 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
I read this whole thread hoping there would be more discussion around the "need" for 10hz and enjoyed the discussion about how it is impossible to execute in a practical manner for most people... The need is debatable but the impracticality overrules the need/want and may have just helped me decide to limit my hz-hunt to around 15. Not what I expected to gain but valuable none-the-less
Hi,

I think, as a practical matter, the low to mid-teens are about it for most of us. And, that's still pretty cool. People with very small rooms, who can count on having a lot of room gain have a much better chance. But, for instance, in my large room, I have a whole 6db of room gain at 10Hz. So, I decided that, as a practical matter, I might just as well forget about it.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #85 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 07:55 PM
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Exactly, it all depends on room gain. However, even if you don't a big ported design that gets 10hz makes a big difference.
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post #86 of 130 Old 02-16-2017, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think, as a practical matter, the low to mid-teens are about it for most of us. And, that's still pretty cool. People with very small rooms, who can count on having a lot of room gain have a much better chance. But, for instance, in my large room, I have a whole 6db of room gain at 10Hz. So, I decided that, as a practical matter, I might just as well forget about it.

Regards,
Mike
This is exactly why I'm really glad I just added a pair of Crowson transducers instead of more subs. I have a large shared room on very hard floors, over 5k^3ft, and am reference into the upper teens, but I could never get the absurd tactile feedback the motion actuators provide well into the single digits. I am loving the combination of transducers, nearfield MBMs, and full range 18" subs; and until I'm in a smaller dedicated room, this is as much as WAF will allow.

My setup covers the whole spectrum of bass that I appreciate. To my body and ears, I feel I'm very capable into the single digits now. Even if my below 20Hz response isn't the product of a pressure wave, it's freaking awesome! I'm afraid for the day I have a dedicated room, for that will be the day my DIY home theater crazy comes out.

Good luck in your pursuit of better bass!

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
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post #87 of 130 Old 02-24-2017, 07:45 AM
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Did you pull the trigger on your new sub?
If so, what did you buy?
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post #88 of 130 Old 02-27-2017, 01:26 AM
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Well, we had a small GTG at Chucky7's house yesterday (@Chucky7, @bulls , and myself). The JTR Cap1400 and the PSA S3000i. To cut to the chase, there was no winner in my mind, only that the two subs have inherent differences. Neither sounded better to me overall, just different.

Chucky runs his LFE +10dB hot & we also ran the volume well over reference. His room is not large and had considerable room gain despite two openings leading to the kitchen and the rest of the house. We ran clips from the Ultimate Bass Demo Discs as well as some music (Hotel California in 5.1 DTS HD MA sounded great). The JTR had in-room extension to about 14Hz and hit peaks of 125 dB between 20-30Hz w/movie clips. The PSA was no slouch with extension down to 6Hz and hitting peaks of 120dB from 20-30Hz.

We moved the JTR to the other front ¼ wall position for better FR and placed the PSA in its original place.
At the levels we were playing (~10dB over reference) there was definitely some chuffing on the JTR but it didn't bother me because it had an amazing ability to create wind! Not just a small breeze but strong wind if you were directly in front of the port. We sat about 2m from the front of the JTR. The JTR was also more tactile (except for at 10Hz of course) for the most part. The PSA had a bit more mid-bass.
@bulls seemed no closer to making a decision when we left than before. A Cap2400 will hit 20Hz but he can't face it towards the MLP to feel the wind. At regular listening volumes I doubt the chuffing is a big issue. A second Cap1400 would likely increase chuff free headroom.

Honestly, without the sealed S3000i there and REW RTA we wouldn't know we were missing any content at 10Hz.

Is there something about the Cap1400 that produces more port wind than other designs?

I personally think the new @Rythmik FV25 should be a consideration for the OP to get a form factor closer to the Cap1400 and also get 10Hz extension. It should be quite formidable in his size room with room gain.

Because I am a champion of dual subs I believe dual PSA V1801s have a great price, finish, and form factor and would be a better choice than a single Cap1400 for the OP (giving up on the quest for 10Hz). But oh the Cap1400 wind!
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post #89 of 130 Old 02-27-2017, 05:23 AM
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Not sure if the Cap1400 has more port wind than ofher ported sub out there as no one ever compares that.
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post #90 of 130 Old 02-27-2017, 05:24 AM
 
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Chucky7, are you running your sub volume at 12oclock? What is your LF knob set to? Just curious cause of the review.
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