4 18" Dayton Audio Ultimax diy kit or 1 JTR Cap? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
Yuppp... you guys found the one dude crazier then the guy running North Korea and made him president...
Like I said, very hard to ignore that....
The alternative was worse. The election was like choosing between getting gonorrhea or syphilis.
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post #32 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 06:10 AM
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The alternative was worse. The election was like choosing between getting gonorrhea or syphilis.
I totally get the lesser of the two evils predicament...
I wish I could say things are better with our multi-party system up here.... but it would be all lies...
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post #33 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by thisgsx View Post
Yes that's the plan. Having a liitle headroom doesn't hurt.😁

I fully understand the *need* and *advantage* for that kind of juice *per* sub, having one of Bob Carver's legendary performing 12.5" sub box's juiced with 2.7 Killo-watts of power.

That said, if the UM18 voice coil is *only* spec'd for 1K RMS, juicing it to 3K RMS, your going to have thermal issues sooner or later, in other words, your going to melt your voice coil.

The SI HST18 can handle twice the power of the UM18, but considering its current selling price, you could buy 3 UM18's instead. The SI HST18.2 is not the value play, but wouldn't it be the better fit for those 3 Kilo-watts of juice? A question that I've been musing about myself for some time.

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post #34 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nx211 View Post
I fully understand the *need* and *advantage* for that kind of juice *per* sub, having one of Bob Carver's legendary performing 12.5" sub box's juiced with 2.7 Killo-watts of power.

That said, if the UM18 voice coil is *only* spec'd for 1K RMS, juicing it to 3K RMS, your going to have thermal issues sooner or later, in other words, your going to melt your voice coil.

The SI HST18 can handle twice the power of the UM18, but considering its current selling price, you could buy 3 UM18's instead. The SI HST18.2 is not the value play, but wouldn't it be the better fit for those 3 Kilo-watts of juice? A question that I've been musing about myself for some time.
That is a good question. Cab size the same as the UM18 for the SI?

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post #35 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by nx211 View Post
I fully understand the *need* and *advantage* for that kind of juice *per* sub, having one of Bob Carver's legendary performing 12.5" sub box's juiced with 2.7 Killo-watts of power.

That said, if the UM18 voice coil is *only* spec'd for 1K RMS, juicing it to 3K RMS, your going to have thermal issues sooner or later, in other words, your going to melt your voice coil.

The SI HST18 can handle twice the power of the UM18, but considering its current selling price, you could buy 3 UM18's instead. The SI HST18.2 is not the value play, but wouldn't it be the better fit for those 3 Kilo-watts of juice? A question that I've been musing about myself for some time.
The iNuke6000 maybe puts out 1500RMS per channel. Most people run either a small or no limiter on sealed UM18's when using them per channel with the iNuke 6000. There will be no issue giving it 1500rms in a small sealed box.
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post #36 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 06:46 AM
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@BassThatHz


Good montage of clips.


I will take issue with you on one point.


I've been to Popalock's house you showed in that video and experienced first hand what 16 sealed do in a 1500 cubic foot space. (I'm videotaping the footage below!) I've also been in a half dozen theaters now with eight 15's or 18's (or greater subwoofer firepower) including my own. (Gorilla83, Carp, Scrappydue, Archaea, d_c, desertdome)

This is me filming @popalock s with the Irene scene and witnessing the party tricks! (timestamp 15:35)

Multiple sealed is impressive -- but even Austin with his 16, 18's will admit to you it's most impressive in weird places where the bass waves combine into the party tricks. Like the hallways, bathroom door entrances, etc. At the actual seats during the Black Hawk down - there wasn't the same level of crazy going on as there was at the hallway entrance. Crazy? at the seats - yes! -- same level of crazy in the seats as depicted in the videos no...
Nevertheless, I'm a HUGE fan of nearfield sealed 18" subs -- I think it's probably the single most important bass improvement you can make (for a basement slab based theater) - subjectively speaking and based on my experiences. However, ported subs up front (or some of the guys love them nearfield too) are a LOT of fun!


You said -
Quote:
i.e. ^^^this, and videos like this
That's like 2000% cone distortion, the PA cones are pushing out to where there is -20 BL

Unlike that,
videos like pop's, notnyt's and mine, we are moving things with ACTUAL sound waves.
You know... actual SPL / DBs. Not "20hz below tuning" box-fan particle velocity turbulence effects.
The bass wants out of the room and it is desperately seeking a place to escape...
You know good and well you can move things with actual sound waves with a ported sub setup too. According to the vibsensor thread - apparently more tactile energy with ported than with sealed across the bass spectrum. I have videos of the pair of my former JTR Caps in my room shaking the projection screen on the wall so bad during dubstep type song it was hard to read the windows fonts. -- that had nothing to do with bass below port tune at high distortion.

The wind effect from the ported subs when cranking on them hard (and little or no HPF) is the stuff of 4d cinemas. An explosion happens on screen and your leg hair swirls in the wind, you get that cooling effect, and dust starts flying around the room -- it's very enjoyable IMO. Perhaps oddly, it's something I truly miss from the days I owned a couple JTR ported Captivators. (The wind effect is missing with my current eight UM18-22 subwoofer sealed system).



These first two video are ones I filmed in my room -- the third is of the ULF4000 which I still haven't heard, but will this weekend!






Watching those videos - how can that not be fun too?!?! Answer - it IS fun!

Anway -- your post proclaiming sealed as so much superior reads a bit biased to me. I know you love your sealed, but there is nothing wrong with a strong ported setup. I'll also make note that in the Blind Subwoofer Shootout I hosted in 2012, not one single enthusiast correctly identified all subwoofer box alignments correctly (ported, sealed, horn). These aren't just newbies --- these were enthusiasts from multiple states throughout US (i.e. subwoofer aficionados with enough interest to fly or drive multiple hundreds of miles to listen to subs all day in a blind test) -- The attendees established clear quality tiers in their collective/summed voting scores, but none could identify box alignment. This indicates pretty clearly that these sealed vs. ported vs horn forum wars ----- just don't matter in the end.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ut-2012-a.html
No, in the end it's simply about clean SPL output - and you can accomplish it a variety of ways!

I'd imagine a pair of JTR ULF4000's would pretty handedly best my eight sealed UM18-22 in real world home theater use (all things considered). In the KC crawl coming up this weekend, Jeff is supposed to be bringing down a single JTR ULF4000 and putting it up against eight of @carp s SI 18HT. I think reality is the JTR with just two 18" drivers will really surprise some of the junior attendees in that matchup. The old veterans already have a clear idea of the quality design and potency JTR can bring to the table!

No, one ULF 1400 won't beat 4 UM18-22. Nobody said it would -- but it would be fun to put one ULF4000 up against 4 UM18-22, or 4 SI 18HT. I think that'd be a different story entirely.

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208, 1" tweeters | 52, 5" woofers | 8, 18" subwoofers

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post #37 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylon View Post
The iNuke6000 maybe puts out 1500RMS per channel. Most people run either a small or no limiter on sealed UM18's when using them per channel with the iNuke 6000. There will be no issue giving it 1500rms in a small sealed box.


You can find multiple sources grading the output of the iNuke 6000. Because it is a class D amplifier it cannot be tested apples to apples with another amplifier class like A/B. Sine wave tests and class D amplifiers don't get along nicely. The amplifier can using a sine wave generator produce 1100watts RMS. BUT, with real world music and or movie content it is more like 1800-3000watts RMS depending on duration and frequency of the "content". "Clean" output meaning low distortion would be close to 1500watts RMS per channel into a 4 ohm load.


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post #38 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Purenv View Post
Because it is a class D amplifier it cannot be tested apples to apples with another amplifier class like A/B. Sine wave tests and class D amplifiers don't get along nicely.
Sure they can be compared, and class D amps do just fine with sine waves.
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post #39 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 03:28 PM
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@uniquepattern My choice of the word bite was some sarcasm that doesnt seem to show through on the internet, sorry if it came off wrong. Ill be contacting Al Gore and asking him why that is since he invented the internet. @Gooddoc and @Molon_Labe pretty much summed up my thoughts more succinctly then I would have so we should ALL thank them both



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Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
I totally get the lesser of the two evils predicament...
I wish I could say things are better with our multi-party system up here.... but it would be all lies...

We have a two party system, but when one side loses they cry for days and ask for a safe space.
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post #40 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 03:54 PM
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Recent election. I'll leave it to your interpretation which end of the political spectrum is in the car, and which is outside of it...

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post #41 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@[B]
I'd imagine a pair of JTR ULF4000's would pretty handedly best my eight sealed UM18-22 in real world home theater use (all things considered). In the KC crawl coming up this weekend, Jeff is supposed to be bringing down a single JTR ULF4000 and putting it up against eight of @carp s SI 18HT. I think reality is the JTR with just two 18" drivers will really surprise some of the junior attendees in that matchup. The old veterans already have a clear idea of the quality design and potency JTR can bring to the table!

No, one ULF 1400 won't beat 4 UM18-22. Nobody said it would -- but it would be fun to put one ULF4000 up against 4 UM18-22, or 4 SI 18HT. I think that'd be a different story entirely.
The thread title doesn't say Captivator 1400. The four UM18 and two 6000 would cost about $2000 not including wood, glue, screws, etc. So, at $2400 parts cost (still not including labor) the Captivator 2400ULF comes into the picture. Based off the Data-Bass numbers of the UM18 the Captivator 2400ULF should have an advantage in the 12.5-16hz and be close everywhere else to four UM18 of two inuke 6000s.

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post #42 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 04:24 PM
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post #43 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The thread title doesn't say Captivator 1400. The four UM18 and two 6000 would cost about $2000 not including wood, glue, screws, etc. So, at $2400 parts cost (still not including labor) the Captivator 2400ULF comes into the picture. Based off the Data-Bass numbers of the UM18 the Captivator 2400ULF should have an advantage in the 12.5-16hz and be close everywhere else to four UM18 of two inuke 6000s.
I would have to see that measured to believe it....
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post #44 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The thread title doesn't say Captivator 1400. The four UM18 and two 6000 would cost about $2000 not including wood, glue, screws, etc. So, at $2400 parts cost (still not including labor) the Captivator 2400ULF comes into the picture. Based off the Data-Bass numbers of the UM18 the Captivator 2400ULF should have an advantage in the 12.5-16hz and be close everywhere else to four UM18 of two inuke 6000s.
I think your prices are a bit off:

4xUM18 > $267 x 4 = $1068
2 iNuke 6000DSP from NSL > $325 x 2 = $650
Speakon connectors > $6 x 8 = $48
4 sheets of MDF > $23 x 4 = $92
2 bottles Titebond 3 > $6 x 2 = $12
Lets say 6 tubes PL Premium > $5 x 6 = $30
And the gun needed to use the PL = $12
Lets even by clamps > $12 x 10 = $120
Hell even sawhorses > $20 x 4 = $80
Oh why not a nice circular saw = $120


Total: $2232


I could literally buy everything you need to build 4 sealed 18s including the expensive tools needed to build the boxes and still be in at under the price of one 2400ULF. Now don't get me wrong I know the 2400ULF is badass and I can just order one and have it show up at my front door, but to me it's crazy I can buy all the tools and parts necessary to build and power 4 very nice 18" subwoofers for less than the price of a single 18" in an admittedly amazing box. It's almost apples to oranges but then again, it's not.

Most people already own half the stuff needed or know friends who do, so simply take out the tools needed to build it(sawhorses, circ saw, clamps), and the price for the project goes down to $1900. Again, I know it's almost apples to oranges, but the price of subs from ID companies always gets me. And don't even get me started on prices from big name companies like Klipsch and what, they are outrageous.

All that being said, I have referred multiple people who refuse to do DIY to PSA and JTR, because if you can't/won't build, you guys are hard to beat.
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post #45 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 08:39 PM
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^^^

The omission of labor is a huge factor though. Going by your prices. Would you rather take the time to build, sand, paint/stain 4 enclosures yourself. Or pay the extra $200 and get something that you know performs and sounds great, is likely better built and looks much nicer than what most are capable of achieving themselves.
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post #46 of 51 Old 02-15-2017, 09:56 PM
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Size can be a significant consideration for some people (not sure about the OP, he didn't mention it).

The JTRs are going to be 7-11 cubic feet (1400, S2, 2400ULF). The UM18s are going to be 5-7 (sealed) & 7-15 (ported) cubic feet PER DRIVER. So depending on your form factor you need one huge box, two great big boxes, or four very large boxes. Vs just one very large box for the JTRs.

So besides the labor going into the UM18s, there is also at least two, three or four times as much room space needed for them. Clearly the JTRs are the space-saver option :-)

That said, I'm building a ported UM18 cabinet, so I think the JTRs are good options for some, and the UM18s are good options for others. I'd be really interested in comparing them :-)

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post #47 of 51 Old 02-16-2017, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Sure they can be compared, and class D amps do just fine with sine waves.


Sorry I mis-spoke before. Sine wave was supposed to be sinusoidal tone. I copied this quote from another forum performing a test bench comparison of the iNuke and another amp to help explain why I said what I said beforehand:
Now if these amps were class-AB/H/G etc. with 50Hz transformer based supplies then measuring power output is normally easy, just use a continuous tone and measure what you get. As we know amps with switching power supplies sometimes restrict the output power under sinusoidal tone conditions as they do not have the thermal capacity or overload capacity to suck it up for a minute or so whilst the engineer measures it. In anticipation of this happening here I choose to make two measurement types. Continuous sinusoidal output for 1 minute (i.e. the traditional way) and output under 33% duty cycle conditions, which is a kind of burst rating but where the burst is repeated so as to deliver 33% maximum output. This is similar to saying that an amplifier must deliver 33% of its power indefinitely so that music signals with a low crest factor can still be reliably produced. 1/8th power is typical used for domestic equipment but 1/3rd seems safer for professional use where those dub bass lines can get quite demanding.


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post #48 of 51 Old 02-16-2017, 04:30 AM
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We have a two party system, but when one side loses they cry for days and ask for a safe space.
Don't want to highjack the thread, but thought that was funny


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post #49 of 51 Old 02-16-2017, 04:42 AM
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@uniquepattern My choice of the word bite was some sarcasm that doesnt seem to show through on the internet, sorry if it came off wrong. Ill be contacting Al Gore and asking him why that is since he invented the internet. @Gooddoc and @Molon_Labe pretty much summed up my thoughts more succinctly then I would have so we should ALL thank them both






We have a two party system, but when one side loses they cry for days and ask for a safe space.

Its all good my friend... I thought it was sarcasm.... that's why I started off with "no need to bite" - also meant tongue in cheek and probably didn't come off correctly.... Damn internets.... lol
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post #50 of 51 Old 02-16-2017, 06:14 AM
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The article also stated this for power results:
Conclusion of power testing

Neither of the amplifiers showed any signs of progressively restricting the output during these tests so I'm inclined believe that they should be good to do this indefinitely. As a caveat though I did not test them in this mode for long as my load box is not capable of these power levels for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

To summarise, for music signals, both channels driven, you can expect an output of:

Behringer:
1.37kW into 8 Ohms, 2.05kW into 4 Ohms for full-range or mid-top duty
1.16kW into 8 Ohms, 1.80kW into 4 Ohms for Bass duty


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post #51 of 51 Old 02-16-2017, 07:25 AM
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Josh Ricci stated in the past that you knock off about 4db above 40hz on all the diy subs he tested with his Power Soft K10 compared to using a budget oriented amp like the Behringer 3000dsp. So if that is the case then the UM-18 sealed with a Inuke 3000 should still hit 120-121db 2m rms in the 40-80hz. 4 of them powered by 2 6000's should hit 131-132db above 40-80hz, 123db 20-31hz, and 109db 10-20hz.
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