Dual Seaton Submersive HP on the way! - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 363 Old 07-24-2017, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
All I can say is that in imureh's room, at least to my ears, the Submersive is by a very long shot the best option out of the two. His room is very particular with that wall to wall cabinet. The only way to get the Cap 1400 sounding decent is with the driver facing the cabinet, of course that leaves the amp and cables exposed. But even that way the Submersive sounds cleaner and more articulate. Both subwoofers were level matched and both were in phase with the mains. His room is only 2100 cu ft and the length is only 19 ft. That's the main reason he is getting such a good response down to 6Hz with the Submersive and that response below 16Hz all the way flat to 6Hz is pure gold.

Agan, it was very nice to expend some time with @imureh and play with these two subwoofers for a couple of hours. Now is time for him to relax and enjoy his system with peace of mind and knowing that it can't get any better in terms of low end.



This is a great example of how extension plays a big role in overall Sound Quality. Granted this is pretty extreme as the cap isn't getting any room gain, but it happens sometimes with ported subs because of the steep rolloff below tune.

In cases like these FRs, getting that extension adds to more realism and weight in the HT. Add your suspended floor to increase TR, and you've got a great combo. Congrats.
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post #302 of 363 Old 07-24-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Your TR comparison is very interesting. I think it has a lot to do with your suspended floor and the dual opposed design, where the DO design does a better job at resonating different areas of the floor compared to just one driver.
I think is not due the DO design and more about room layout and the wall to wall shelf. When we put the Cap 1400 with the driver facing to the shelf (front wall) we got more TR from the Cap compared to the Subversive but it wasn't by much. Now in terms of SQ, clean and articulated bass, the Submersive, in that particular room and in that particular spot sounds much better compared to the Cap 1400.
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post #303 of 363 Old 07-25-2017, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I think is not due the DO design and more about room layout and the wall to wall shelf. When we put the Cap 1400 with the driver facing to the shelf (front wall) we got more TR from the Cap compared to the Subversive but it wasn't by much. Now in terms of SQ, clean and articulated bass, the Submersive, in that particular room and in that particular spot sounds much better compared to the Cap 1400.
Thanks for the additional data points. That makes sense.

Before hearing the submersive, did the Cap 1400 sound loose/boomy or did it sound ok?
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post #304 of 363 Old 07-25-2017, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Thanks for the additional data points. That makes sense.

Before hearing the submersive, did the Cap 1400 sound loose/boomy or did it sound ok?
I did listen to the Submersives pair on June 22th then I came back to imureh's house to listen to the Cap 1400 on July 13th, enough time for my audio memory to forget the sound of the Submersives. He had his old PC-12 NSD hooked up and I told him to unplug it because I wanted my hearing totally fresh. So we put the Cap 1400 in the same spot, ran Audyssey, increased subwoofer level +7dB on the receiver and listened to some music I'm familiar with. After 30 sec I asked imureh to turn it off because it sounded off. I did take some measurements but everything was fine, even impulse response. We moved the Cap with the driver facing the shelf and the TR improved a lot but it was too boomy. We listened to a couple of movies and TR was good but again, it sounded loose and boomy. The sound was like all bass notes were the same, no harmonics. Then I asked imureh to plug one Submersive but this time I wanted to make the Submersive sounds really bad (sorry Mark) so we did not run Audyssey for the Submersive, instead we used the Cap's Audyssey calibration and changed the distance on the receiver until I got impulse response right. We listened to the Submersive and there it was again, clean bass with plenty harmonics and articulated bass. At that point we were totally convinced that the Submersives were the right choice in that room. Does this mean the Cap 1400 is bad subwoofer? Not at all. I'm pretty sure in a bigger room the Cap would show all its capabilities but in imureh's room, like in most small rooms, sealed subwoofers are the best options. With dual Submersives in that room, at -11 MV, we got the room totally pressurized. At the point that the SPL meter shows same reading in any spot in the room, same for TR.

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post #305 of 363 Old 07-25-2017, 08:44 AM
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Having never heard either a Cap 1400 or Submersives, I come here with a clean slate. What the exhaustive tests that @imureh and @enricoclaudio ran reinforced for me was that two subs will always work better than one in any given room. Have no idea why the single Cap 1400 hated imureh's room so much but am convinced that a pair of them could have been made to sound great. I also learned something new: in a small, sealed, room, sealed subs are likely to present fewer problems than ported subs will.

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post #306 of 363 Old 07-26-2017, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
in a small, sealed, room, sealed subs are likely to present fewer problems than ported subs will.
This is my experience.^^

The lack of placement flexibility due to the shelving made the comparison perhaps a bit unbalanced. Perhaps Enrico & Ray can try a pair of smaller, ported Rythmiks in the future just for comparisons sake.

Few people do the A/B comparison Ray did so they aren't able to experience potential differences. IMO, Tron Legacy and Interstellar make the differences between a ported and sealed system aparent.
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post #307 of 363 Old 07-26-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I did listen to the Submersives pair on June 22th then I came back to imureh's house to listen to the Cap 1400 on July 13th, enough time for my audio memory to forget the sound of the Submersives. He had his old PC-12 NSD hooked up and I told him to unplug it because I wanted my hearing totally fresh. So we put the Cap 1400 in the same spot, ran Audyssey, increased subwoofer level +7dB on the receiver and listened to some music I'm familiar with. After 30 sec I asked imureh to turn it off because it sounded off. I did take some measurements but everything was fine, even impulse response. We moved the Cap with the driver facing the shelf and the TR improved a lot but it was too boomy. We listened to a couple of movies and TR was good but again, it sounded loose and boomy. The sound was like all bass notes were the same, no harmonics. Then I asked imureh to plug one Submersive but this time I wanted to make the Submersive sounds really bad (sorry Mark) so we did not run Audyssey for the Submersive, instead we used the Cap's Audyssey calibration and changed the distance on the receiver until I got impulse response right. We listened to the Submersive and there it was again, clean bass with plenty harmonics and articulated bass. At that point we were totally convinced that the Submersives were the right choice in that room. Does this mean the Cap 1400 is bad subwoofer? Not at all. I'm pretty sure in a bigger room the Cap would show all its capabilities but in imureh's room, like in most small rooms, sealed subwoofers are the best options. With dual Submersives in that room, at -11 MV, we got the room totally pressurized. At the point that the SPL meter shows same reading in any spot in the room, same for TR.
This is great info...and just shows how much the room impacts SQ and TR!

Two points that I thought I'd never hear, but are now included as part of my archive:
  • The Cap 1400 sounds bad
  • A sealed sub produced more TR/Intensity than ported placed many feet away

At the end of the day, we hear our room no matter how bad or good the sub is! This just goes to show that just purchasing a great sub doesn't equate to great SQ and TR. In fact, it's likely bad SQ/TR if you don't take the time to optimize it for your specific room.
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post #308 of 363 Old 07-26-2017, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
This is great info...and just shows how much the room impacts SQ and TR!

Two points that I thought I'd never hear, but are now included as part of my archive:
  • The Cap 1400 sounds bad
  • A sealed sub produced more TR/Intensity than ported placed many feet away

At the end of the day, we hear our room no matter how bad or good the sub is! This just goes to show that just purchasing a great sub doesn't equate to great SQ and TR. In fact, it's likely bad SQ/TR if you don't take the time to optimize it for your specific room.
OK let me be clear. The Cap 1400 sounded bad in that specific room and in the same spot as the Submersive which is the only place that imureh has in his room for subwoofers. Also the subwoofers are only 9 ft away from MLP so yes, in that case sealed subwoofers in a room with suspended wooden subfloor take the advantage in terms of TR. Like I said before, we were not expecting a difference that big between the two subwoofers but it's what it's. In imureh's room, in those locations, which are the only available locations for subwoofers, the Submersive sounds much better than the Cap 1400.

Finally, I want to make clear that I'm not biassed in this comparison because like every body knows, I work for Rythmik and both, JTR and Seaton Sound are our competition. BTW, Brian Ding knew that I was helping imureh making a decision regarding these two subwoofers and although I could have taken a FV18 to imureh's house for comparison, I decided to not do that because that would have been dishonest on my part in every sense.

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post #309 of 363 Old 07-26-2017, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
OK let me be clear. The Cap 1400 sounded bad in that specific room and in the same spot as the Submersive which is the only place that imureh has in his room for subwoofers. Also the subwoofers are only 9 ft away from MLP so yes, in that case sealed subwoofers in a room with suspended wooden subfloor take the advantage in terms of TR. Like I said before, we were not expecting a difference that big between the two subwoofers but it's what it's. In imureh's room, in those locations, which are the only available locations for subwoofers, the Submersive sounds much better than the Cap 1400.

Finally, I want to make clear that I'm not biassed in this comparison because like every body knows, I work for Rythmik and both, JTR and Seaton Sound are our competition. BTW, Brian Ding knew that I was helping imureh making a decision regarding these two subwoofers and although I could have taken a FV18 to imureh's house for comparison, I decided to not do that because that would have been dishonest on my part in every sense.
Absolutely. I appreciate your unbiased approach.

Let me be crystal clear as well: The Cap 1400 is one of the best subs on the market. By no means am I trying to say otherwise.

What I am reinforcing is that even great subs can sound bad depending on room conditions and placement. Buying a sub that looks great on paper doesn't mean that translates into great SQ in the room if you don't properly optimize it with the help REW, Omnimic, etc.
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post #310 of 363 Old 07-28-2017, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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The Cap has left the house this morning. Was a beast to box up and bring down. Can't imagine doing this with larger subs myself.


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post #311 of 363 Old 07-28-2017, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
The Cap has left the house this morning. Was a beast to box up and bring down. Can't imagine doing this with larger subs myself.


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Did you end up selling it or just sending it back to JTR?
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post #312 of 363 Old 07-28-2017, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you end up selling it or just sending it back to JTR?


Back to JTR. Was surprised did not get much interest. I was selling for about $300 less than new one shipped. Oh well. Less headache for me.


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post #313 of 363 Old 07-29-2017, 02:11 PM
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Back to JTR. Was surprised did not get much interest. I was selling for about $300 less than new one shipped. Oh well. Less headache for me.
The problem with the price is that unless the buyer is local to you, he won't be saving that much shipped ( $1900 + $180 = $2080. ) A brand new Cap 1400 from JTR is only $2180 shipped ( $1999 + $180 ).

Your price is fair, but people in the classified section are looking to save $$$.

That's why I posted below

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However, in most cases, people get more $$$ back by simply returning the product to the manufacturer.

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post #314 of 363 Old 07-29-2017, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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The problem with the price is that unless the buyer is local to you, he won't be saving that much shipped ( $1900 + $180 = $2080. ) A brand new Cap 1400 from JTR is only $2180 shipped ( $1999 + $180 ).

People in the classified section are looking to save $$$.

That's why I posted below


Yep. That's why it's gone back to JTR. It's all good.


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post #315 of 363 Old 07-29-2017, 03:03 PM
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After seeing the "after" measurements after Enrico's first visit it was obvious the Cap1400 was in for a very tough time! I think most would have stopped there, it was great to see you go that extra yard to ensure you would be left with no doubts - which almost certainly leads to early and unnecessary "upgrades". Well done man!!
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post #316 of 363 Old 07-29-2017, 03:22 PM
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I'm not sure why so many are surprised with the performance of the Submersive. If you look through the forums at some old sub gtg's the subm almost always comes out on top in blind tests. Having owned one and now having dual 21's, it really is incredible how much performance the subm delivers.
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post #317 of 363 Old 07-29-2017, 10:00 PM
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I'm not sure why so many are surprised with the performance of the Submersive. If you look through the forums at some old sub gtg's the subm almost always comes out on top in blind tests. Having owned one and now having dual 21's, it really is incredible how much performance the subm delivers.
It's not that many are surprised with the performance of the Submersive. It's that many are surprised the Cap 1400 did not perform as well.

Because the OP seems to want and need more, many think he would prefer the sound and the TR of a ported sub for a 100% movie HT. Besides, the OP had ported subs. That is why he ordered the Cap 1400 to compare.

During those sub GTGs you speak of, the Captivators were trading #1s with the Submersive. Of course, the settings of the GTGs tend to be open space/basements which favor the ported Captivator.

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post #318 of 363 Old 07-30-2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
It's not that many are surprised with the performance of the Submersive. It's that many are surprised the Cap 1400 did not perform as well.

Because the OP seems to want and need more, many think he would prefer the sound and the TR of a ported sub for a 100% movie HT. Besides, the OP had ported subs. That is why he ordered the Cap 1400 to compare.

During those sub GTGs you speak of, the Captivators were trading #1s with the Submersive. Of course, the settings of the GTGs tend to be open space/basements which favor the ported Captivator.
For sure, I didn't mean to imply the cap wasn't awesome. It just seemed like the subM seems to be less well known at this point.

Maybe I'm just getting old but the likes of the cap 2400 and subM were known to be incredible subs, however there doesn't seem to be as much talk about the seaton sub as there was in the yesteryear. In a room gain situation I think maybe people underestimate the performance of well designed sealed subs.
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post #319 of 363 Old 07-30-2017, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Dual Seaton Submersive HP on the way!

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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
After seeing the "after" measurements after Enrico's first visit it was obvious the Cap1400 was in for a very tough time! I think most would have stopped there, it was great to see you go that extra yard to ensure you would be left with no doubts - which almost certainly leads to early and unnecessary "upgrades". Well done man!!


Quote:
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I'm not sure why so many are surprised with the performance of the Submersive. If you look through the forums at some old sub gtg's the subm almost always comes out on top in blind tests. Having owned one and now having dual 21's, it really is incredible how much performance the subm delivers.


To be honest I was a bit surprised myself at the results. But for reasons explained in this thread there were factors at play that neutralized the advantages the Cap would have had over the Submersive HP. That was exactly the purpose of the testing and biting the bullet on paying the shipping costs so that there was no doubt left. The more I am listening to the Submersives the more it's confirming that they were the right choice for my room.

It also confirms that you can cannot blindly make a recommendation or choice based on output numbers.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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Last edited by imureh; 07-30-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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post #320 of 363 Old 10-02-2017, 10:20 AM
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To be honest I was a bit surprised myself at the results. But for reasons explained in this thread there were factors at play that neutralized the advantages the Cap would have had over the Submersive HP. That was exactly the purpose of the testing and biting the bullet on paying the shipping costs so that there was no doubt left. The more I am listening to the Submersives the more it's confirming that they were the right choice for my room.

It also confirms that you can cannot blindly make a recommendation or choice based on output numbers.


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Imureh,

I am in the market for those subs as well.
How the subs work within non-stop of few hours listening?
Thanks
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post #321 of 363 Old 10-02-2017, 10:31 AM
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I'm not sure why so many are surprised with the performance of the Submersive. If you look through the forums at some old sub gtg's the subm almost always comes out on top in blind tests. Having owned one and now having dual 21's, it really is incredible how much performance the subm delivers.
Not surprised to hear at all.
I've been rocking my Seaton Sub HP+ for 3+ years and it just gets the job done. Tons of power to fill larger rooms as well and surprisingly musical provided your mains aren't super fast.

Mark and his family are also great people! Got to meet Mark and his Dad at Axpona a few months back.
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post #322 of 363 Old 10-02-2017, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ceeyaa View Post
Imureh,



I am in the market for those subs as well.

How the subs work within non-stop of few hours listening?

Thanks


A lot will depend on your room and your listening habits. Also if you are mainly music then sealed is the way to go. In my small room the sealed sounded better than the Cap. However since then I discovered that every brand has its own sound signature. I liked the Submersives a lot but due to some issues with my breaker tripping on bass heavy scenes I had to return them and got PSA V1801s. Now this is where I realized that I did not like the way the Cap sounded in my room and it was wrong to assume that the Cap would be a good proxy for how a ported would sound in my room. The V1801 sounded a lot better and cleaner. The Cap would probably work better in a larger room than mine.

So best thing would be to try them out in your room if you can.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #323 of 363 Old 10-02-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
A lot will depend on your room and your listening habits. Also if you are mainly music then sealed is the way to go. In my small room the sealed sounded better than the Cap. However since then I discovered that every brand has its own sound signature. I liked the Submersives a lot but due to some issues with my breaker tripping on bass heavy scenes I had to return them and got PSA V1801s. Now this is where I realized that I did not like the way the Cap sounded in my room and it was wrong to assume that the Cap would be a good proxy for how a ported would sound in my room. The V1801 sounded a lot better and cleaner. The Cap would probably work better in a larger room than mine.

So best thing would be to try them out in your room if you can.


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I have 1 opened room and 1 enclosed. sealed or ported does not matter because I am going set up 2 rooms anyway.
In opened room, there are existing Separate outlets 20amp for 1 amplifier, and one 15amp for 2nd amplifier. So, currents may not be an issue for Submersives, perhaps? these subs are going to pair with B&W Nautilus 802, 95% is music listening.
So, which subs would suit best?
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post #324 of 363 Old 10-03-2017, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ceeyaa View Post
I have 1 opened room and 1 enclosed. sealed or ported does not matter because I am going set up 2 rooms anyway.
In opened room, there are existing Separate outlets 20amp for 1 amplifier, and one 15amp for 2nd amplifier. So, currents may not be an issue for Submersives, perhaps? these subs are going to pair with B&W Nautilus 802, 95% is music listening.
So, which subs would suit best?
I would say go with the Submersive HPs. Have you looked into the F18+ offering from Seaton? Also how about Rythmik F25 or F18?
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post #325 of 363 Old 10-03-2017, 08:03 AM
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I would say go with the Submersive HPs. Have you looked into the F18+ offering from Seaton? Also how about Rythmik F25 or F18?
For music, I just want enough bass but must be clean, clear, and tight like the B&W speakers devote ( I am looking for Diamond series speakers to upgrade also).

I will looking into those.
Thank you.
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post #326 of 363 Old 10-13-2017, 09:33 PM
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I would say go with the Submersive HPs. Have you looked into the F18+ offering from Seaton? Also how about Rythmik F25 or F18?
I ordered Submersive HP+/Slave on Wednesday. Mark said will shipped out Friday . Still waiting for its tracking.

Btw, I just now used some hand tufted wool rugs on 2 sides, front wall and 2 corners, sound were heavily improve. Lots of taciile feel with hardwood flooring in my new home. If you have not yet get any acoustic panels, try those rugs to see. They look nicer , prices are less and sound may be better?

Let's see those SubMs add any more love to it ?! Pray for me please
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post #327 of 363 Old 10-13-2017, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ceeyaa View Post
I ordered Submersive HP+/Slave on Wednesday. Mark said will sipped out Friday . Still waiting for its tracking.



Btw, I just now used some hand tufted wool rugs on 2 sides, front wall and 2 corners, sound were heavily improve. Lots of taciile feel with hardwood flooring in my new home. If you have not yet get any acoustic panels, try those rugs to see. They look nicer , prices are less and sound may be better?



Let's see those SubMs add any more love to it ?! Pray for me please


Congrats. I am sure you love the submersive. I am considering GIK acoustic panel later on


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #328 of 363 Old 10-14-2017, 10:41 AM
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Congrats. I am sure you love the submersive. I am considering GIK acoustic panel later on


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Homedepot has those rugs. You can order online and return at store if dislike. But I tell you it does make a big big big difference !!! The sound is live not dull !

How long it took Mark shipped out? He still not responded to my email for tracking #. The waiting is of course unpleasant
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post #329 of 363 Old 10-14-2017, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Homedepot has those rugs. You can order online and return at store if dislike. But I tell you it does make a big big big difference !!! The sound is live not dull !



How long it took Mark shipped out? He still not responded to my email for tracking #. The waiting is of course unpleasant


He got them out in a couple of weeks. Would you mind providing a link for the rugs?


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #330 of 363 Old 10-14-2017, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ceeyaa View Post
Homedepot has those rugs. You can order online and return at store if dislike. But I tell you it does make a big big big difference !!! The sound is live not dull !



How long it took Mark shipped out? He still not responded to my email for tracking #. The waiting is of course unpleasant


Are these the ones?

http://www.homedepot.com/s/hand%2520...suggest&NCNI-5


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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