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Dissatisfied with adding 2nd PB-2000...help with direction on where to go next

12K views 68 replies 17 participants last post by  B T C 
#1 ·
I've had a PB 2000 in my 2,100 cubic foot, enclosed room now since February and overall I'm quite pleased. It makes the couch rumble pretty effortlessly and can't say I necessarily need more bass. In the diagram shown, I previously had the sub in the back right corner, but discovered putting it in the front left corner minimized localization yet didn't seem to decrease the amount of output in the room, so I kept the sub in the front. When calibrated the sub came back at -7.5dB, and afterwards I increased the gain on the back of the sub for more output. It now sits at around 3 o clock.

I decided to just give duals a shot to see what kind of impact this could have in my room so I ordered a 2nd PB 2000. To be honest, I'm not all that blown away and discovered it's perhaps the single sub does all that I need. I'm not noticing that much of a difference in output other than my two subs needing to work slightly less harder. My biggest complaint is that the chair on the left near the stairwell seems to be in a null. There is minimal bass there after trying the subs flanking both the fronts and doing the diagonal setup like in the picture. I can get some bass there if I turn it up higher than normal, but then the couch and right chair seem to have too much bass. The couch and chair are in a nice sweet spot it seems, especially the chair. Bass seems to be quite even in the room except for the chair on the left. Any reason why this might be?

My question would be if I want greater extension at some point or more punch, am I better off going with better subs in a dual setup to have more bass throughout the room, or spending money on a single, more powerful sub.

The way I see it is two PB 2000s is $1,600, whereas a single HSU VTF 3.5 is $892, VTF 15H MK2 is $1,068, so quite a difference in cost. Would love to hear some opinions. Thanks!
 

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#2 ·
I've been through the same thing. You're not gonna notice much more output but it should add 2-3db at your main listening seat. It should also give you bass more evenly in the room along with no localization. That was the biggest thing for me was with one sub you know it's there! You know where the bass is coming from. Now with two the bass is just in the room. On punchy stuff it seems like it's coming from the front speakers. I had a PB-2000 and then dual PB-1000's. I now have dual VTF-3 MK5's and haven't looked back.



This isn't even cranked up!



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#3 ·
Switch the phase on the second sub see if that helps the second sub could be out of phase. Also what about setting a delay on the second sub if that was closer to your mlp than the first. There's so many things to do try having the sub facing the side wall or the back wall. Have you done a sub crawl in your room to see where the sweet spot is. You can play a test tone via youtube like 40 hz. and crawl on the floor around your room to see what sounds the best with bass and place the sub there. I would also recommend buying a calibrated mic and install rew on your laptop to really see what both subs are doing.
 
#4 ·
I did play a 80hz test tone on youtube with both the subs running. I played with the phase on the rear sub to see how this would change the output. When I turn the phase knob all the way to 180 the sub deadens to a degree, but when I begin turning it it really opens up and pretty much stays constant until I get to 0. It seemed to have the most impact bass around 90-110 degrees, so I kept it there.

I'm wondering if my expectations were just set too high. The problem is that I wasn't really having an issue with bass in my listening area with one sub. I don't have a ton of different seating areas as the width of my room is only 12 feet, and seating is pretty much in a straight line going horizontal. The one sub I had was hitting all those spots fine except that far left seat I was talking about, but even the two subs couldn't hit the left chair very well either. Could it be due to the left chair having the opening right next to it where there's no longer a boundary for bass to play off of?

I was able to get more output with the two subs because clearly the two subs were able to work less hard as they had to be turned down during Audyssey to get a simliar output with one sub, but it wasn't a "wow this is amazing!!!" It just didn't feel terribly different compared to one sub.

Again, one PB 2000 seems to handle my 2,100 cubic foot room just fine. I guess I was just looking for more impact and slam which two PB 2000s didn't necessarily provide. Would the next logical solution be to move up in caliber of subs?
 
#5 ·
You'll get the largest number of spl boost when you put subs side by side or stack them.
This is not true.

A lot of people think you get a 6 db add if you just buy another sub. That's wrong and been proven the only way you do that is when you co locate subs.
This is not true.

Two isn't always better then one. Room placement is key.
This is true. Proper placement and setup will yield not only a 6 dB increase in output, but also a smoother FR.

Also not having some horrible eq like audyssey
Will help too. Audyssey crushes great bass. Just flattens to a boring sound.
This is not true. Audysey XT 32 along with SubeqHT is amongst the very best room correction programs on the market. It will do a great job of improving your in room frequency response, including subs, all the way down to 10 Hz. Most people prefer to turn up their subwoofer level 3-6 dB after Audysey calibration.
 
#7 ·
One thing to keep in mind is that if you weren't frequently hitting the limits of a single PB-2000 adding a second will primarily serve to even out FR and add more headroom if ever needed. So if you had a good FR at your main listening area already it certainly is plausible that you won't notice a significant change unless you start pushing the limits. You will not get any better extension with identical duals.
 
#11 ·
I think that's exactly the problem I'm running in to. I wasn't hitting the limits of a single PB 2000, running maybe around 1/2-3/4 of what it's capable of, and then with running two subs I'm probably playing it at a similar output so not noticing much effects. It sounds like then my best bet would be to ignore dual subs for now and get the best single sub I can get.

Based upon my readings it seems like the VTF 3.5, VTF 15H MK2, or the Rythmik FVX15 would be the next step up...would this be fair to say?
 
#8 ·
@bear123 Side by side or stacking does increase db. I tested that theory with the VTF3.5's and where there are now (front left, right rear) added 3-3.5db at my MLP. Putting them side by side (right rear) added 6-7db at the MLP compared to just one there. At a moderate volume my front door handle/latch, which was 50' away, was rattling. The front door was vibrating. It had more bass and more "shake" on the sofa but it was very localized so that's why they're placed where they are now.


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#9 · (Edited)
I don't think Bear was pushing back at the idea that two co located subs should go up 6 db, he was pushing back at the idea they HAD to be side by side or stacked to get this.
 
#10 · (Edited)
As others have pointed out, you probably were not reaching the limits of the existing sub, so the second sub is about getting more consistent bass response across the room and not more slam -- which in fact might feel more quiet!

Why?

Because bass peaks give the illusion of louder bass, at the expense of accurate bass. And if you locate two subs the way you have, in a sealed room, it distributes bass more evenly. And then your room correction software can more accurately flatten the bass to be accurate -- which as others have noted, often sounds less impactful in general. A lot of what seems like "impact" in some systems is actually noise and inaccurate response.

Various people recommend raising the sub level to taste, after all the setup, and there is NO LAW against that. Personally, I prefer to use Audyssey dynamic EQ to achieve that punch and rumble but there's no one way to adjust a system to taste. And frankly most people do just that. Adjust things to taste.

----

The more I look at your room drawing and read your words, the more it seems like you don't have a sealed rectangular room?

In that case, the space you are filling might be way larger than 2100 cubic feet and maybe a larger sub is in order.

Think of it in terms of where water would go if you started to fill the room. Open staircase? Yep, add that volume. Staircase open to great room upstairs? Yep, all that volume too. Of course, trying to pressurize all that is a challenge (and do people in the kitchen upstairs want to feel the bass as strong as what you are hearing in the home theater??).

If your room isn't a perfect sealed rectangle, sub positioning might need to be revisited. The most respected (but complex) solution people like involves a measurement microphone and software and a mini-DSP, etc. Audyssey can do a decent job, if you have sub EQ HT, as well, and that might get you 90% of the way there, which is good enough for most of us (me included usually). That last 10% of perfection requires 90% more effort, imo.

--

All that said, I went with a two sub setup about ten years ago and was disappointed. There was not more slam, and room EQ was not very sophisticated, and I ended up getting rid of one of the subs. I EQ'ed the single sub to be flat at my captain's seat --- and everyone else suffered through lumpy bass, but they didn't care and I didn't care about their bass!

Fast forward a few years and I definitely appreciate a multiple sub setup in a sealed room with sophisticated EQ. But it's not about more output and boom. It's about astonishingly hard bass once or twice in a movie, and not having to think about what seat is best, and having very controlled bass all the time (which means it is absent a lot, sitting and waiting to be called to action).

But a second or third and fourth sub, while the headroom is increased a bit, isn't about output, really. It's about quality, imo.
 
#12 ·
Two in the room versus just one should give you around +/-3db in your MLP... should! If not, then move them around!??


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#15 · (Edited)
There have been so many good posts already that I just picked the last one to "Like". But, it could have been several of them. I am also having a little problem understanding what you are trying to accomplish here. If you specifically want to get better bass response for the chair on the left, then you might want to try moving the rear PB2000 close to that chair. Nearfield, it would probably be helpful. If you are already getting what you want from the sofa and the chair on the right, though, that's not bad for dual subs in that room. I agree that the opening is probably causing bass problems for the chair on the left.

As far as whether you want one sub or two, I would experiment some more first, before you decide. Different placement options could be explored first, and having bass sounds and tactile sensations coming from more than one direction can be a good thing. And then, if you want more output, you just need to turn up your sub volumes. There were some red herrings in some of the posts with respect to how much available SPL you may have, at what frequencies. You will have to experiment to find out. But, as you noted, Audyssey merely set two subs to play at the same volume that it did for one sub. That's its job: to make all of the channels (including the .1 sub channel) play at the same volume at the MLP. Now, if you want more bass impact, just boost the subs. The subwoofer guide, linked below, has some tips on the best way to do that.

After you have experimented further, if you do decide to go with a single sub rather than with two, then I would try to clarify what you are hoping to accomplish. If one PB2000 already gives you adequate headroom and good bass for 3/4 of your listening area, what exactly do you want a better sub to give you? One thing that you might be looking for is more low frequency extension, so you could look for a sub that digs deeper than your PB2000. If you could stretch your budget, a Cap 1400 might be a good solution. But, simply buying a different sub on the grounds that, more expensive will necessarily be better, may not serve you well. Having a plan for what you are hoping to improve will get you more targeted advice.

Regards,
Mike
 
#16 ·
There have been so many good posts already that I just picked the last one to "Like". But, it could have been several of them. I am also having a little problem understanding what you are trying to accomplish here. If you specifically want to get better bass response for the chair on the left, then you might want to try moving the rear PB2000 close to that chair. Nearfield, it would probably be helpful. If you are already getting what you want from the sofa and the chair on the right, though, that's not bad for dual subs in that room. I agree that the opening is probably causing bass problems for the chair on the left.

As far as whether you want one sub or two, I would experiment some more first, before you decide. Different placement options could be explored first, and having bass sounds and tactile sensations coming from more than one direction can be a good thing. And then, if you want more output, you just need to turn up your sub volumes. There were some red herrings in some of the posts with respect to how much available SPL you may have, at what frequencies. You will have to experiment to find out. But, as you noted, Audyssey merely set two subs to play at the same volume that it did for one sub. That's its job: to make all of the channels (including the .1 sub channel) play at the same volume at the MLP. Now, if you want more bass impact, just boost the subs. The subwoofer guide, linked, below has some tips on the best way to do that.

After you have experimented further, if you do decide to go with a single sub rather than with two, then I would try to clarify what you are hoping to accomplish. If one PB2000 already gives you adequate headroom and good bass for 3/4 of your listening area, what exactly do you want a better sub to give you? One thing that you might be looking for is more low frequency extension, so you could look for a sub that digs deeper than your PB2000. If you could stretch your budget, a Cap 1400 might be a good solution. But, simply buying a different sub on the grounds that, more expensive will necessarily be better, may not serve you well. Having a plan for what you are hoping to improve will get you more targeted advice.

Regards,
Mike
My drawing isn't certainly to size, but the front left sub is probably around 6 feet from the left chair, and it still doesn't give that "oopmh" that the other spots give. In regards to what I'm after, I tried duals I think just assuming it would give more power and slam, but I feel like just one PB 2000 gives that by itself. I can't try other spots for my subs because there's no where else. I can't put it behind the left chair because that's a walkway. A previous poster wondered if I need more sub to fill my area, that maybe it's more than 2,100 cubic feet. I only have 7 foot ceilings, and this is a basement so it's not opening to other rooms.

With the one sub, the couch and right chair hit hard. The couch and chair vibrate with ease it seems, but I just wanted to see what duals could do. I'm wondering if maybe I don't need the duals to make a more smooth response. People say turning up the PB 2000 is my best solution, so that would just give more impact, but not extension, so I guess if I want more extension I need to cough up some money. The question is how much I would benefit from this. I guess I could always try a Plus or Ultra from SVS on their dime and test it out...
 
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#21 ·
So many posts out on internet that argue this. So I've done this test with a group of audio enthusiasts and engineers. I know I'm right and have no need to bring this up again.
Well, I guess that's the last word on that then.


:D
 
#20 ·
Subwoofers mutually couple at 1/4 wave length separation. So, its the distance between two or more subs that determines at what frequency they will gain the full 6db benefit from coupling. In my room, subs which are physically separated by 18' mutually couple for the full 6db of gain at just about 14Hz, right where they are supposed to. If they were closer together, they would mutually couple at a higher frequency. Knowing where you want to have them mutually couple is important. Stacked, or within about 10" of each other, subs will mutually couple at all frequencies up to about 120Hz.
 
#25 ·
You are partly right here, and I know you have a desire to learn. As we all know, doubling displacement (i.e. two drivers instead of one) adds 3 dB. We also know that when you double power, you gain 3 dB of output. So doubling displacement and power(i.e. dual subs) increases output by 6 dB. Period. This is a basic law of physics, its just how audio works. Now we also know that frequency response varies greatly once in a room due to things such as boundary reinforcement, room gain, reflections, and constructive and destructive interference. The sub that measures flat anechoically is nowhere near flat when placed in room.

When two subwoofers are fully mutually coupled by placing them within 1/4 wavelength of one another below the crossover frequency(or stacking them), the 6 dB increase that ALWAYS OCCURS NO MATTER WHAT WHEN YOU DOUBLE DISPLACEMENT AND POWER(I.E. DUAL SUBS), will be a perfectly linear increase of 6 dB across the entire frequency range. Whatever lousy FR the single sub had, adding another moves the whole graph up exactly 6 dB at every frequency.

Here is where the confusion sets in. The average Joe adds a 2nd sub, places it improperly, does not set it up properly(phase, delay, etc), measures and sees a 3 dB increase at the MLP. So now, based on this highly scientific endeavor, average Joe knows that dual subs only add 3 dB and you only get 6 by stacking them. This is not because dual subs do not add 6 dB, but because there was not a 6 dB increase seen at the MLP due to improper setup. We know that out of phase subs can actually cancel each other out and reduce output drastically. Even properly setup dual subs will not see a linear 6 dB increase across the entire FR. There will be, and should be, areas where huge peaks are actually reduced, and other areas where large nulls are filled with much greater than a 6 dB increase.

With broad band pink noise, the AVERAGE increase in SPL across the entire FR will be 6 dB with properly placed, properly setup dual subs that are spread out for improved frequency response. Will average Joe place and setup his dual subs improperly and only see a 3 dB increase? Yes this happens often. Unfortunately, average Joe then comes onto the forums preaching his "expertise" and misinforming others.

There are plenty of forum members here including myself who have been open minded enough to listen and learn from from others expertise who enjoy our 6 dB increase with dual subs spread out.
@basshead81
@BillFitzmaurice
 
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#39 ·
I don't really have time for discussions about things that people believe to be true.
Ok. Go on and on. It's fine doesn't make it right. I'd love to come and test your room as well as bh81.

I'm sure I could easily show you in person. Would take less then 10 minutes.

Yeah we all have a lot to learn. I've been doing this for a long time. I have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about.

Double the power is 3db of perceived volume.
Mike was right on in his last post. Should of ended with yes the hsu vtf3 or 15h will have much more output. Or get one rythmik fv15hp. One fv15hp will sound better then pb2000 with about 4 times the output. The fv15hp is closer to svs pb16 then pb13ultra also.
For someone that doesn't "have the time" you certainly seem to have a lot of time to come into another thread regarding SVS and proceed with your SVS bashing routine. :rolleyes:
 
#30 ·
Man, some intense conversation going on around here! I think someone else mentioned it best that maybe what I'm looking for the most is more output in the midbass region, not extension. Certainly extension would be nice, but I'm guessing I'd see a greater improvement in the mid bass.

The HSU subs seem to shine in this area. However, people also mention that I'm not making full use of my current subwoofer but regardless of how high I turn my PB 2000, won't it still be lacking in that mid bass area compared to the HSU sub at an equal volume?

I know I'll get greater output from my PB 2000 if I increase the gain on the sub, but they still have a limited midbass output and I think that's where I get confused.

The HSU VTF 3.5 and its big brother seem light years beyond the PB 2000, so not sure if that's where I should be looking. Even more so, The VTF 3.5 equals the PB 13 ultra at 16hz based upon measurements I've seen, then the 13 ultra beats it up to 31.5hz, but then the VTF 3.5 starts pulling away up through 80hz. All the while the PB 13 ultra costing $1,100 more.

The VTF 15h mk2 is the same story with a closer race in the 16-32hz, but pulls away even more after 31hz.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Just comparing max output numbers can be very confusing. And, it is mostly relevant as you begin to approach max output in your system. From what you have said, you weren't hitting max output even with a single sub. If you want to find out whether your dual PB2000's can satisfy you or not, or even whether a single one can, you will need to turn up the volume on the subs. That way you can discover whether they have proportionally too much low bass and not enough mid-bass, or insufficient low bass, or just the right amount of what you want.

Properly calibrated subs are intended to have a fairly flat frequency response across the entire sub's passband. You only see higher max output in the mid-bass, compared to the low bass for instance, as you start to approach a sub's SPL limits. Low frequency extension is a slightly different thing, but if you are using a manual or automated calibration system, then your sub(s) will always be calibrated to a known SPL, using a test tone. Afterwards, if you want them to play louder, you simply increase the volume on the sub(s). And, that will be true no matter how powerful they are. Once you have pushed them a little, you can discover whether they are giving you what you want.

So, experiment with the volume of your current subs as a way to help you understand what, if anything, they are lacking. Then, once you have a better understanding of what you want, that they don't do, people can help you pick something better. Or, perhaps one or both of them will satisfy you, after all. But, you just can't discover that part by reading max output comparisons. :)

Regards,
Mike
 
#32 ·
The VTF3.5 definitely has more "mid bass" and more punch than the PB-2000! I don't know about stats and measurements or frequencies but I know my ears and I know good sound! I was amazed when I turned the VTF-3 MK5 on for the first time compared to the PB-2000 I had and the dual PB-1000's. Those two SVS subs won't do what the 3.5 will! Yes, the PB-2000 gets low but so does the 3.5 but the 3.5 hits harder!


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#38 ·
Looks like the 1 sub took care of the Main/Right portion with no issues and the Left seat being the trouble child.

If you sit mostly in the main position I'd say that's all that matters ;) How often does that left seat get used?

Have you tried placing a subwoofer on the L seat then SubCrawl? Once you find the spot place it there then test/adjust subs to see how they work together.
 
#42 ·
Now that you have $1600 spent on subs, its probably a good idea to make sure you are getting the most out of them before spending more money on what could simply be a frequency response issue.

Download REW onto an HDMI laptop, order a Umik-1 microphone from miniDSP, and measure your room. You are looking for a roughly +/- 3dB response, and it is very possible, even likely, that you have a large dip on your frequency response somewhere that could leave the bass feeling lacking in some areas.
 
#43 ·
Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm going to try a few things out here and see how much, if any, a second sub adds to my room. As of now, the single PB 2000 works great in my room, outside the left seat which only is used if we have more than 5 people over for a movie. I will push the limits of the sub and see what happens.
 
#44 ·
SVS definitely aren't known for their midbass slam, they are more known for their ruler flat response, low distortion and bulletproof limiters (along with their incredible customer service and other perks)
With 2 x PB2000's in a small room, I'd be surprised if you couldn't get around 115dB from 30hz - 100hz.
If you think you need more than this you may need to look elsewhere.
But first try adding 6-8 dB to your AVR's subwoofer trim and see how it sounds.
You may not be noticing a difference because you haven't yet pushed past what a single Pb2000 is capable of.
 
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#45 · (Edited)
I think you're right. I think my problem is that I have this idea in my head that I should have plenty of headroom left when using the sub, that I should only go so far up in volume after audyssey is done. I know headroom is good though too.

My most recent calibration with one sub ended with the trim level being set at -7.5. I left the trim alone in the AVR and instead boosted the gain on the back of the sub maybe 4 or 5 "clicks", which is where it rests now probably just a tad before 3 o clock. I tested some scenes from Jurassic world and it shook the couch and could definitely feel the bass without a problem. But I felt in less in my chest so to speak. More in the couch with my butt and back, on the floor, that type of expericnece.

I guess I need and want to know if the PB 2000 will ever "hit me in the chest", or if perhaps this sub isn't just that type. Maybe I need some better source material to find that out too. Movies with good mid bass slam.
 
#46 ·
Just double checking, you have 2 x PB2000s right now?
If so, rerun Audyssey with both sub gains at around 1 o'clock, keep re-running the first measurement position - making small adjustments to both subs gain dails between measurements - till you get an AVR sub trim around -10dB. Then run through all 8 measurement positions.
Then turn off DynamicEQ and boost your AVR's sub trim about 6-8dB hot.
Watch something with known midbass slam - something like the John Wick nightclub scene.
If this isn't enough for you I'd recommend looking at something like the JTR Cap118.
 
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#47 ·
I do have duals yes. The problem I see with your method is you didn't mention to set the subs at an equal gain first. Wouldn't my first step be to level match the two subs first?

I can tell you when they are in diagonal corners my front left is at around 1 o clock and my back right around 11 o clock before audyssey to get them both at -3.5. When combined I then get -7.
 
#48 ·
They are identical subs, setting them both so their gains are at 1 o'clock whilst technically not "gain matched" - it should be very close. There is a thread on here on "Gain matching vs Level matching" with proponents for both methods. For what its worth, I gain matched my 4 x PB-2000's and the gain dials all pretty much ended up at the exact same position on each- within one indent or so.YMMV
 
#50 ·
But the distances are different: one is 12 feet and one is 8 feet. The gains are pretty different in my room in order to get the same output.

I just realized though I've mad a huge error: I haven't calibrated the dual subs using all 8 mic positions like you mentioned. Only the initial mic position I used just to determine the trim level. Back to testing!!!
 
#58 ·
I think he's making this too complicated.. as did I. Yes, you'd like to have the gain on both PB-2000's around 1 o'clock but you want them "level matched" at the MLP so you have a nice blend and don't hear or feel one more than the other. I went through the same thing. I used the AVR test tones with an SPL meter while sitting in the MLP (with both subs in their respective spots) and made sure I was getting the same db from each while testing one a time (turning the other off). That way they're not localized. I feel like it worked well for me with the dual VTF3.5's.


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#60 ·
After calibrated equally and if I want more output, should I increase the gain in the back of the subs or keep those the same and only increase in the AVR?
 
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