Power Sound Audio's New Flagship: S7201 Quad-18" - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
112db @20hz with no compression is pretty impressive to say the least. It's cea 2010 max burst is probably going to be higher. Looks like sub is capable of 131db 2m rms above 60hz. That is some serious fuking output.
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post #62 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 11:17 AM
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I had never heard of Danley till now. Jesus, what a line up.

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post #63 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 12:35 PM
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Sure looks like a beast! Looking forward to testimony and Data-Bass getting ahold of this beast.

Funny thing is I could fit two of these behind my screen but that would be twice my budget . I just recently had a $4,000 sub upgrade budget so I ordered two JTR Captivator 1400s for my 1800ft3 theater. Cant wait for them to show up.

In my room one sub is localizable. I don't care what people say about not being able to localize sub frequencies. Dual subs make my whole room fill with bass once level and phase matched in my experience.

This looks like one bad arse mudder tho.

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post #64 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 04:23 PM
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Time for some more circuit breakers! Now for somebody here to go quad-quads! You'd see street lights fading flickering across the city, set off seismographs 5 counties over, and might not have a house left over, but boy would it be amazing. Besides, who needs internal organs?

I'm drooling just thinking about what these must sound/feel like.
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post #65 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 04:27 PM
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I dont see these making their way to Ricci at databass
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post #66 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 05:39 PM
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On a scale of 1 to 10, I would say this sub is more like a -20 WAF.

I believe a new term will start appearing on court paper divorce filings a month or so after this sub starts to ship:



REASON FOR DIVORCE: Husband moved a PSA S7201 into the living room.

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post #67 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I dont see these making their way to Ricci at databass
Just curious why not? I had always thought PSA was very upfront and open about their products.
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post #68 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
112db @20hz with no compression is pretty impressive to say the least.
Not for a sub that HUGE with FOUR high excursion 18" drivers. One can achieve that level with a much much smaller enclosure and TWO 18" drivers with similar 4kW amp.

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Looks like sub is capable of 131db 2m rms above 60hz. That is some serious fuking output.
I must miss it, can you point me to its measurement or graph?
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post #69 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Not for a sub that HUGE with FOUR high excursion 18" drivers. One can achieve that level with a much much smaller enclosure and TWO 18" drivers with similar 4kW amp.


I must miss it, can you point me to its measurement or graph?
The only sub I am aware of that has 2 18" subs with 4kw of power shows 108db @ 20hz with no compression. It's burst output is 112db @ 20hz 2m rms.

Basically, the 7201 can complete a 115db compression sweep without any compression. The "other" sub can complete a 110db sweep with no compression.
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post #70 of 512 Old 07-31-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Just curious why not? I had always thought PSA was very upfront and open about their products.
PSA being very upfront and open about their products is one thing. Having Data-bass test their subs is another.

Here is what Tom said:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post54283545

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post52566281

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post52514401
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post #71 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 04:27 AM
 
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Not everyone may approve of how Data-bass tests these subs, but one has to realize, that they are all put under the same test credentials which puts all of them on a level playing field.
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post #72 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 05:28 AM
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It's hard to believe how much single frequency or max burst numbers mean when it comes to PSA. I went to databass to compare numbers between my XV30FSE vs a Cap 118ht. To my surprise The Cap has a 1Db advantage across range. Old vs New for best value. It would cost $700 to upgrade to duals + shipping. Then someone will try and tell me the Cap will possibly have more extension down to 10-12hz, which is where I have a huge problem.
1) Very little content exists.
2) You run the risk of damaging equipment at this range, Bass I love you, EOT opening. All for what? To listen to more rattles.
3) This is only potentially 1/12 of a subwoofers ability unless you cross at 80Hz.
4) For the money is a 1Db advantage audible to anybody.
5) Multiple things can effect a subwoofer in anyone's room, downiring, front, bassplate, etc, placement, size of room, openings to other rooms, seating positions.
If you need to be subjective with data sets please stop sending people off chasing extension when in reality they should be chasing quality high output levels in the ranges that matter to most.
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post #73 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 05:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bossdog304 View Post
It's hard to believe how much single frequency or max burst numbers mean when it comes to PSA. I went to databass to compare numbers between my XV30FSE vs a Cap 118ht. To my surprise The Cap has a 1Db advantage across range. Old vs New for best value. It would cost $700 to upgrade to duals + shipping. Then someone will try and tell me the Cap will possibly have more extension down to 10-12hz, which is where I have a huge problem.
1) Very little content exists.
2) You run the risk of damaging equipment at this range, Bass I love you, EOT opening. All for what? To listen to more rattles.
3) This is only potentially 1/12 of a subwoofers ability unless you cross at 80Hz.
4) For the money is a 1Db advantage audible to anybody.
5) Multiple things can effect a subwoofer in anyone's room, downiring, front, bassplate, etc, placement, size of room, openings to other rooms, seating positions.
If you need to be subjective with data sets please stop sending people off chasing extension when in reality they should be chasing quality high output levels in the ranges that matter to most.
I think if your sub can produce down to 16 hz at a respectable level, than you are pretty much covered on 90-95% of any and all content. Anything under this is just gravy on the biscuit. But I will say this, there is something to be said when you feel 12hz in a movie when you don't expect it, even though the content is limited.

Just to clear the air, I think PSA makes some unbelievable subs at the price point they are marketing to. I really like the V1801 and V3601, which is why I was trying to turn my brother onto them at one point. Maybe I was a bit harsh to Tom on the whole Data-bass fiasco, and for that I apologize. Would I like to see his subs at Data-bass, especially the 7201, heck yea. Would it bother me if the dang thing pulls stronger numbers than all the tested ones, heck no. I think this just opens the door for everyone else to raise their game, DSS, Funk, JTR, Seaton, etc. Do I think that JTR is the best sub on the planet, NO!!! But it was the best choice for my application and wallet. Saying all that, I hope that the S7201 is a homerun hit, and if it wasn't so big, I would have loved to entertain a couple of these in my dedicated room.
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post #74 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I think if your sub can produce down to 16 hz at a respectable level, than you are pretty much covered on 90-95% of any and all content. Anything under this is just gravy on the biscuit. But I will say this, there is something to be said when you feel 12hz in a movie when you don't expect it, even though the content is limited.


This is all true. The bigger, more powerful subs will do their thing with less effort and/or compression though.


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post #75 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 06:32 AM
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We certainly do measure every product. Every measurement session typically lasts for hours with dozens of measurements taken and re-taken. Over the course of product development we often will end up with 10, 20 or even more measurement "sessions". Having a thousand or more data points on any given product isn't anything unusual.

We also go through extensive listening sessions on every product as well. One easy example is our PR proto types as it is in the middle of the process as I type. We've been measuring and listening to these for months now. Still have a long way to go before Jim and I will make the final decision to move forward with them(to production) or not. By the time we're done we'll easily have thousands of data points on these. But, just as important, we'll also have spent hundreds of hours listening to them..

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Last edited by rboster; 08-01-2017 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Edited deleted quoted post
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post #76 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 06:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not but there has been so much misinformation posted about Power Sound in other threads lately I do feel obligated to set the record straight.

We certainly do measure every product. Every measurement session typically lasts for hours with dozens of measurements taken and re-taken. Over the course of product development we often will end up with 10, 20 or even more measurement "sessions". Having a thousand or more data points on any given product isn't anything unusual.

We also go through extensive listening sessions on every product as well. One easy example is our PR proto types as it is in the middle of the process as I type. We've been measuring and listening to these for months now. Still have a long way to go before Jim and I will make the final decision to move forward with them(to production) or not. By the time we're done we'll easily have thousands of data points on these. But, just as important, we'll also have spent hundreds of hours listening to them..

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Will the data you release be an average of what you tested or actual raw data per test point?
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post #77 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I think if your sub can produce down to 16 hz at a respectable level, than you are pretty much covered on 90-95% of any and all content. Anything under this is just gravy on the biscuit. But I will say this, there is something to be said when you feel 12hz in a movie when you don't expect it, even though the content is limited.

Just to clear the air, I think PSA makes some unbelievable subs at the price point they are marketing to. I really like the V1801 and V3601, which is why I was trying to turn my brother onto them at one point. Maybe I was a bit harsh to Tom on the whole Data-bass fiasco, and for that I apologize. Would I like to see his subs at Data-bass, especially the 7201, heck yea. Would it bother me if the dang thing pulls stronger numbers than all the tested ones, heck no. I think this just opens the door for everyone else to raise their game, DSS, Funk, JTR, Seaton, etc. Do I think that JTR is the best sub on the planet, NO!!! But it was the best choice for my application and wallet. Saying all that, I hope that the S7201 is a homerun hit, and if it wasn't so big, I would have loved to entertain a couple of these in my dedicated room.
I appreciate the responses, I'm not trying to pit manufactures against each other. Sadly I've only heard a handful of these subs out there, and they all bring great subwoofers to the market. I see all too often people buying almost every manufactures subwoofers taking big losses for what some would consider minimal gains. I wish it was as easy as when people ask me if they should upgrade speakers to a power amp. Personally I believe if you have lower efficiency speakers such as Polk or JBL and you care about clarity or Dynamics then Yes, but running high efficiency speakers I don't believe you will reap as great of benefits.
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post #78 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not but there has been so much misinformation posted about Power Sound in other threads lately I do feel obligated to set the record straight.

...

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One of the more incredible things I've read elsewhere is that customers are falling over themselves to order the S7201 just because "it looks good". Can you confirm if this is actually the case or is this a strawman as I believe it is?
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post #79 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
PSA being very upfront and open about their products is one thing. Having Data-bass test their subs is another.

Here is what Tom said..........
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post #80 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
One of the more incredible things I've read elsewhere is that customers are falling over themselves to order the S7201 just because "it looks good". Can you confirm if this is actually the case or is this a strawman as I believe it is?
Around here, "looks good" doesn't mean it's pretty, it means it'll blow the house down.
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post #81 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
One of the more incredible things I've read elsewhere is that customers are falling over themselves to order the S7201 just because "it looks good". Can you confirm if this is actually the case or is this a strawman as I believe it is?
No one is going to order a 300 pound subwoofer for $3500 solely because it "looks good". Well, after nearly 20 years in the industry I've yet to meet them.. Unfortunately if anyone mentions that the somewhat unique engineering involved in the S7201 appeals to them on some level that seems to threaten others to the degree they post misleading information in an attempt to denigrate Power Sound(and our customers) --- the "strawman" you referenced above.

Most of these fabrications seem to be limited to one thread. And as I have said already, it reflects much more on them than anything else.

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post #82 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 08:12 AM
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Awesome sub. If you don't like the look, you can always throw an afghan or something over it. Put a flower vase on top.
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post #83 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
I think Pradeep posed a fair question, but you never answered him. Without true numbers, is this a strawman? We don't care about the weight.

>>>>>>>>No one is going to order a 300 pound subwoofer for $3500 solely because it "looks good". Well, after nearly 20 years in the industry I've yet to meet them<<<<<<<<<

Sorry. I can see now how confusing that all must be...

When I say "no one is going to do this" I mistakenly assumed that would be clear *** no one has done it***

When I say "I have yet to meet them" I mistakenly assumed that would be clear ***I haven't had any contact with this type of customer if they do exist?***

I'm very sorry that was all so cryptic..

Here, let me try it again.

Hi Pradeep. I haven't had anyone, not a single customer, no one, nada, zlich, who described their reasoning for the S7201 purchase as "just because it looks good".

Discussions with potential customers tend to focus on the size, weight, performance capabilities, reasoning behind the driver array, different orientation, placement considerations, amplification, things of that nature. In some cases, after a (usually) very long discussion about all of the above I have had potential customers comment to the effect "It does look cool". or some such.

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post #84 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 08:28 AM
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I think that all of us could live without the brand rivalries. One of the things that I think that people sometimes lose sight of is the legitimate brand loyalties that people like Tom (and other reputable sub makers) have developed over the years. And, in PSA's case, some of those relationship loyalties go back even further, to Tom's and Jim's days at SVS. Good designers don't suddenly stop being good designers and most people who have bought PSA products seem very well aware of that.

So, when Tom and Jim develop a new flagship sealed sub that has twice the number of drivers, in a unique configuration, in a bigger cabinet, and with more amp power, than any of their previous sealed subs, satisfied PSA owners naturally start lining up to try the new sub. There is certainly an element of trust implicit in that. But, there is an element of trust implicit in all ID sub companies to start with. Owners trust that good designers won't suddenly stop being good designers, and that they will stand behind their reputations and their products.

But, in this case, it isn't just naive trust. Anyone with even my limited understanding of sealed subwoofers can look at the ingredients I mentioned above and know that the S7201 is going to be a very serious performer.

Is everyone curious about how it actually compares to other subs on a frequency-by-frequency basis? Heck yes! That curiosity is only natural whether we are specifically interested in buying the sub or not. But, particularly if you are a satisfied PSA customer, you aren't going to require those measurements in order to try the new flagship sub. The same thing is true when other companies release their new flagship products, whether we are talking about JTR or Rythmik, or whatever.

The measurements are good to have, and as a consumer, I would like it if every sub could be independently tested. But, that is never going to happen, and I honestly think that we should all quit trying to obsess about it so much. Anyone who was at all happy with something like an S3001 or an S3601 is going to be far happier with an S7201, and that's really the bottom line. Eventually, there will undoubtedly be some means to compare the S7201 to somewhat comparable subs such as the S2, but meanwhile PSA will probably sell all the S7201's they can make to contented PSA owners and others, and justifiably so.

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post #85 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 08:32 AM
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Awesome sub. If you don't like the look, you can always throw an afghan or something over it. Put a flower vase on top.
Appreciate it.. And that would work fine, as the force cancelling does minimize vibrations a good bit.

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post #86 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think that all of us could live without the brand rivalries. One of the things that I think that people sometimes lose sight of is the legitimate brand loyalties that people like Tom (and other reputable sub makers) have developed over the years. And, in PSA's case, some of those relationship loyalties go back even further, to Tom's and Jim's days at SVS. Good designers don't suddenly stop being good designers and most people who have bought PSA products seem very well aware of that.

So, when Tom and Jim develop a new flagship sealed sub that has twice the number of drivers, in a unique configuration, in a bigger cabinet, and with more amp power, than any of their previous sealed subs, satisfied PSA owners naturally start lining up to try the new sub. There is certainly an element of trust implicit in that. But, there is an element of trust implicit in all ID sub companies to start with. Owners trust that good designers won't suddenly stop being good designers, and that they will stand behind their reputations and their products.

But, in this case, it isn't just naive trust. Anyone with even my limited understanding of sealed subwoofers can look at the ingredients I mentioned above and know that the S7201 is going to be a very serious performer.

Is everyone curious about how it actually compares to other subs on a frequency-by-frequency basis? Heck yes! That curiosity is only natural whether we are specifically interested in buying the sub or not. But, particularly if you are a satisfied PSA customer, you aren't going to require those measurements in order to try the new flagship sub. The same thing is true when other companies release their new flagship products, whether we are talking about JTR or Rythmik, or whatever.

The measurements are good to have, and as a consumer, I would like it if every sub could be independently tested. But, that is never going to happen, and I honestly think that we should all quit trying to obsess about it so much. Anyone who was at all happy with something like an S3001 or an S3601 is going to be far happier with an S7201, and that's really the bottom line. Eventually, there will undoubtedly be some means to compare the S7201 to somewhat comparable subs such as the S2, but meanwhile PSA will probably sell all the S7201's they can make to contented PSA owners and others, and justifiably so.

Regards,
Mike
Nice summation! I also think that part of the problem stems from today's instant access to information creating an atmosphere where all data shall be readily available for everyones scrutiny or else that company has something to hide! Just a mere 20 years ago the vast majority of us relied on printed publications to give us all the juicy tidbits for us to chew on and that was after having to wait for the publication to get the product in for review which could have been months after the product was even announced and then the time to adequately review the product, then the time to adequately write and edit the article and then the time to get the publication to print. This was literally several months from time of announcement to published review. And how many of those reviews were submitted by the manufacturer? None. Though IIRC, widescreenreview did have a section in the back of the magazine for manufacturers comments to explain design goals and decisions made on a product which also added more time to get the review to print. Fast forward 20 years and here we are when a manufacturer announces a new product, within 24 hours people are making up things about the product or demanding where are the graphs to prove your claims! I say people just need to calm down and let the information come. We are lucky that folks like Tom V., Mark S. and others even come on here to talk about their products. Now maybe I just don't read all the right forums, but I find it interesting that the more heated discussions occur where the makers do tend to frequent vs. the other manufacturers that don't "grace us with there presence". Other than complaining about the high prices, where are all the scathing comments towards companies like JL Audio, B&W, Meridian etc. Maybe I'm talking out my ass here and I'm sure someone will point it out, but let the reviewers like @imagic get out his reviews without demanding he post graphs that only seem to really matter to like 2 people and let people like @Tom Vodhanel get there product announced and answer questions as he gets the chance without implying that he has something to hide. I know that these people don't need a small time enthusiast like me to come to their defense, but I do get tired of reading thread after thread of attacks or accusations or comments like "you didn't answer my/his/her question". And just for the record, I don't own any PSA gear (sorry Tom), have not heard any PSA gear (though I admit I would like to) and am not affiliated in any capacity with Tom and PSA before anyone wants to declare 'fanboy' status on me.


Sorry for going on such a rant as I usually just let it go, but it was bugging me. Mark, Tom et al, keep doing what you do and I look forward to more constructive conversations from here on.

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato
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post #87 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossdog304 View Post
Then someone will try and tell me the Cap will possibly have more extension down to 10-12hz, which is where I have a huge problem.
1) Very little content exists.
2) You run the risk of damaging equipment at this range, Bass I love you, EOT opening. All for what? To listen to more rattles.
3) This is only potentially 1/12 of a subwoofers ability unless you cross at 80Hz.
1) Says who? What movie today doesn't have content into the teens? Seems like just about everything produced at this point in time has deep bass, and there are certainly those of us who want to experience that part of it.
2) Only poorly designed equipment and/or irresponsible owners should be a concern. When the engineering is right it's almost impossible to damage a sub, and for the last fraction where it may occur the owner has to provide some measure of self control.
3) Does this point suggest crossing higher than 80Hz has an affect on low frequency extension?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bossdog304 View Post
4) For the money is a 1Db advantage audible to anybody.
5) Multiple things can effect a subwoofer in anyone's room, downiring, front, bassplate, etc, placement, size of room, openings to other rooms, seating positions.

If you need to be subjective with data sets please stop sending people off chasing extension when in reality they should be chasing quality high output levels in the ranges that matter to most.
4) Measurable yes, audible no. Bench racers hang their hats on that stuff though. It's like the difference between a car that goes 0-60 in 4.8 seconds versus 5.0. Does it really make a difference? Not in the real world, but you do get people who argue the point nonetheless.
5) Correct, and that's an often overlooked fact. You hear something similar about dual subs; "it's always better to go duals!". Actually, no. If they can't be placed correctly and tuned properly then having 2 subs may not be better than one larger/more powerful unit. The situation and circumstances dictate the correct course of action.

People choosing extension over quality is a personal preference, so there's really nothing wrong if someone goes in the opposite direction to the one you prefer. Same with "the range that matters most"; to some deep extension is important, so they should "chase" it. Different courses for different horses.

 
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post #88 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

People choosing extension over quality is a personal preference, so there's really nothing wrong if someone goes in the opposite direction to the one you prefer. Same with "the range that matters most"; to some deep extension is important, so they should "chase" it. Different courses for different horses.
Also.... bass extension and "quality" are not mutually-exclusive. You can have both.
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post #89 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 10:33 AM
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Say, like me, you have dual S3000s (not 3001s) in the back corners of your living room. Would it be an upgrade to trade both for a single S7200?

Just thinking out loud here guys.
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post #90 of 512 Old 08-01-2017, 10:36 AM
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Only if you can turn off one of your subs and get a decent response, and only if the 7201 will fit in that spot.
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