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post #1441 of 1452 Old 01-14-2020, 04:51 PM
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The problem with having two unequal subs is the weaker one is in a constant state of added strain trying to keep up with the better, higher output one. Best to have two of the same if you ask me. This means you have a more even distribution of labor and each one can play at a slightly lower level [hence a cleaner output with less distortion] since half of its room filling duty is being covered by its twin.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #1442 of 1452 Old 01-14-2020, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
The problem with having two unequal subs is the weaker one is in a constant state of added strain trying to keep up with the better, higher output one. Best to have two of the same if you ask me. This means you have a more even distribution of labor and each one can play at a slightly lower level [hence a cleaner output with less distortion] since half of its room filling duty is being covered by its twin.
Thanks for the input. The X13 and M12 appear to have quite similar profiles, so I wouldn't anticipate either one "straining". But I'm just_a_noob so what do I know? Someone please correct me if I'm off-base on that conclusion.

Hypothetically, what would happen if I bought a second X13 and laid it on its side to make it front-firing? The two subs would have theoretically equal capabilities, but fire differently. If they could be tuned right, could I get the best of both down-firing and front-firing worlds? That effectively what I'm trying to accomplish by mixing M12 with X13.
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post #1443 of 1452 Old 01-14-2020, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by just_a_noob View Post
Hypothetically, what would happen if I bought a second X13 and laid it on its side to make it front-firing? The two subs would have theoretically equal capabilities, but fire differently. If they could be tuned right, could I get the best of both down-firing and front-firing worlds? That effectively what I'm trying to accomplish by mixing M12 with X13.
Where did you hear front firing and downward firing are different? They aren't. The bass frequencies are so long that moving a sub by rotating it on any axis doesn't amount to much. Go for it if it helps it fit.

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post #1444 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 08:19 AM
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Clearly the sound dynamics are different between the designs. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of pointing the woofer in a different direction? Not to be argumentative, but your response appears to be dismissive.

Anyone else with thoughts on mixing down-firing and front-firing subs?

Another thought is that the X13 performs really well in the low range, but not quite as well in the higher ranges. Would pairing with a different woofer supplement the weaknesses of the X13?
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post #1445 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 10:04 AM
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The test is pretty easy but it has to be performed under blind conditions or else one's preconceived biases of "how it is" will influence what they hear. There are many people who have convinced themselves they are immune to the placebo effect however they are wrong. All human beings are subject to cognitive bias whether they realize it or not.

While blindfolded or at least facing the other direction, have a friend rotate a subwoofer on one of its axes, 90 degrees, as per your verbal instructions, to see if you can identify which direction it is facing while listening to bass heavy content. Your friend needs to be dead silent and not speak or else their grunts, words, and intonation may inadvertently give away what position the sub is in. This makes the test effectively double blind as opposed to single blind.
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There are many reasons a designer may make a sub face its woofer in different directions which have nothing to do with sound. For example, spouses often think subwoofers look stupid but at least if the woofer faces downward it can be disguised as just an "end table".
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post #1446 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just_a_noob View Post
I'm looking for some input on sub pairing. I recently installed an Outlaw X13, which sounds great, and I'm looking at adding a second sub as I've read so much about the added benefit. I was considering pairing the X13 with a Monolith 12", but I'm worried about mixing down-firing with front-firing. It wouldn't break my heart to buy a second X13, so I wouldn't be too disappointed if that was the consensus.

Your input is much appreciated!
Then do the easy thing and get a 2nd X13 if you can afford it. Another option would be to buy Qty 2 of the THX 12 for the same $$ and sell your Outlaw.

IMO you want two identical subs, not just for sound but also for appearance.
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post #1447 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just_a_noob View Post
Clearly the sound dynamics are different between the designs. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of pointing the woofer in a different direction? Not to be argumentative, but your response appears to be dismissive.
From an output and extension perspective there actually is little difference between the orientations. Part of the reason both alignments exist is pragmatic; if you have kids or pets, hiding the driver is a wise idea. Another reason is that down-firing tend to create a bit more physical sensation on suspended wood floors because the driver is firing directly into the surface. If the port is also facing down it can help minimize noise as it's somewhat deflected by the floor (less of a 'chuffing' sound during times of heavy use)..


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Anyone else with thoughts on mixing down-firing and front-firing subs?
It would certainly be easier than integrating ported and sealed but caveats still exist; they will need to be virtually identical in capabilities otherwise integration will be hit-or-miss. You will always find the weak link if there is one.
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post #1448 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just_a_noob View Post
Clearly the sound dynamics are different between the designs. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of pointing the woofer in a different direction? Not to be argumentative, but your response appears to be dismissive.

Anyone else with thoughts on mixing down-firing and front-firing subs?

Another thought is that the X13 performs really well in the low range, but not quite as well in the higher ranges. Would pairing with a different woofer supplement the weaknesses of the X13?
m. zillch is correct, there will be little - if any - difference between down and forward firing designs, and even if there are some very slight differences between how the two orientations play into the room, they would be swamped by more important things like box size,port tuning and the actual room itself.
The PSA 15V (down-firing) and V1500 (front-firing) sound and perform almost identically,the only difference is that the larger cabinet on the V1500 allows it to be tuned slightly lower, netting it a few Hz lower extension.

I wouldn't over think it, get another X13, they are a really solid sub and make for great end tables
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TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives
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post #1449 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 12:42 PM
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Considering the wavelengths are so long, moving a sub by less than a foot usually doesn't amount to very much however I can see a few oddball scenarios were a person with a side-firing sealed sub has a slight advantage in that they have an option to subtly tweak the room performance by rotating their sub 180 degrees: this places the cone about a foot away from where it had been yet visually the room position is still "the same".

Things get a little trickier with ported subs however a sealed sub's "location" is the center of its woofer cone.
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post #1450 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 12:50 PM
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I also like that with side firing subs you can take the grill off to see the cone in motion.

Pro Tip: One trick is to put a tiny dot of white ink/paint (Sharpie?) on the cone. This visually becomes a white line in actual use and can act as a "cone excursion indicator". Fun for all and provides some safety to be sure you aren't overdoing it. Add a variable strobe light, like from a free phone app, and you can watch your cone's pistonic motion, in and out, "very slowly".
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post #1451 of 1452 Old 01-16-2020, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
Then do the easy thing and get a 2nd X13 if you can afford it. Another option would be to buy Qty 2 of the THX 12 for the same $$ and sell your Outlaw.

IMO you want two identical subs, not just for sound but also for appearance.
I got the Outlaw during their holiday sale, and I'm very happy with it. I'm not looking to get rid of it any time soon. Plus, I live in Wichita, KS. I don't think it will be easy to sell this level of sub in my market. But you've given me something to consider.
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post #1452 of 1452 Old 01-17-2020, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just_a_noob View Post
I got the Outlaw during their holiday sale, and I'm very happy with it. I'm not looking to get rid of it any time soon. Plus, I live in Wichita, KS. I don't think it will be easy to sell this level of sub in my market. But you've given me something to consider.
My advice: contact them and ask if they'll sell you another at the sale price. If not, wait for another sale!

Maybe aesthetics are not important to your room, or you can position the different subs so they are pleasing to you, but the two are very different looks-wise. Otherwise I guess the consensus here is that it will be possible to balance them.
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