Not getting bass in my room, need bass traps? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 72 Old 10-14-2017, 09:22 PM
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well download rew software and buy a umik 1 microphone and measure your room. that will tell you.
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post #32 of 72 Old 10-14-2017, 09:25 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
Velodyne. Perhaps it sounds deep and amazing on movies because of Sam Adams explanation. That makes sense actually. The subwoofer does however get some bass on 2 channel music, just not nearly as intense for a movie. The SF o3 is disappointing without the sub which I'm trying to fix. It sounds like the answer is bigger subs and more of them.
I read about funk audio on this forum. They seem well regarded and it looks like they finally offer natural walnut!!! I'm not too limited on budget, but I didn't consider needing subs when I bought my system. It seems like SF's new 12" subs won't do the job.
I consider my room to be moderate by AVS standards,
it's about 16'-9" wide by ~14'-6" deep x 8' high.

I have a pair of Funk 18.0's (Walnut crotch veneer high gloss finish) up front,
4800 watts peak output each (good for 110dB at 10Hz)
and a pair of 15" Velodynes directly behind my MLP for near field tactile (2000 watt peak each)


Spoiler!

Like I said before, My room could fit inside yours 3x over, you seriously need to step up your game.
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post #33 of 72 Old 10-14-2017, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice subs you got there PioManiac.
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post #34 of 72 Old 10-14-2017, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
Ceiling is about 8.5 feet high.
The room is about 8000 cf, give-or-take, including the spaces for the nook and the bumpout at the front wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
About the bass won't get stronger; if I am experiencing bass noise cancellation will a bass trap resolve that problem?
The room modes exist solely by virtue of the room's dimensions. The nodes (peaks) and antinodes (nulls) have their positions in the room because of the room's dimensions. How energetically the room modes are excited depends solely on the position of the drivers in relation to those nodes and antinodes. The perception of the room modes depends on where the listener is in relation to those nodes and antinodes.

What a velocity-based bass trap does is 'absorb' the acoustic energy that builds up near the room surfaces thereby reducing the intensity of the standing waves in the room and allowing the listener to hear more of the direct sound. A bass trap cannot absorb something that is not there (That would probably violate so many laws of physics if it were possible.). The best approach to smooth bass response is to place the drivers in the room so as not to excite—or minimally excite—those standing waves. That means placing the drivers as close as possible to a point or points in the room that are close to the standing wave nulls.

Any acoustic treatment that is not designed into a room from the start is a band-aid approach to a problem that all existing rooms have. From a practicality standpoint, it is impossible to eliminate all standing waves from a room unless it is a purpose-designed anechoic room. That is why for an existing room the best approach is placement first, treatments second, and EQ last.
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post #35 of 72 Old 10-14-2017, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhbernheim View Post
Good bass in movies...bad bass in music stereo listening? I have the exact same setup, mx122+mc207... post your 2ch settings


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Speakers/2ch Playback
Setting: Manual
Front: Large
Subwoofer: Yes
SW Mode: LFE+Main
Crossover: 40 Hz
Distance FL: 12.0 ft (I don't know what this means, I didn't change it)
Distance FR: 12.0 ft
Level FL: 0.00 dB
Level FR 0.0 dB
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post #36 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 12:21 AM
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Try front small....sw lfe and crossover 80.......

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post #37 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 05:43 AM
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Not getting bass in my room, need bass traps?

This reads to me like the sub distances are wrong and that it is cancelling out at the main listening position. This is more apparent on music because the fundamentals are within the crossover region, but not on movies as they have a separate LFE output and often have lower bass effects below the crossover region.

REW free software and any mic (although umik is ideal) will help measure and visualise that with the Group Delay and Waterfall graphs.
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post #38 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
I consider my room to be moderate by AVS standards,
it's about 16'-9" wide by ~14'-6" deep x 8' high.

I have a pair of Funk 18.0's (Walnut crotch veneer high gloss finish) up front,
4800 watts peak output each (good for 110dB at 10Hz)
and a pair of 15" Velodynes directly behind my MLP for near field tactile (2000 watt peak each)







65" OLED for daytime TV, JVC PJ and drop down 120" screen for movie night on weekends







Like I said before, My room could fit inside yours 3x over, you seriously need to step up your game.
Jesus. Your room is awesome! Good choice of colors and design. Those subs are insane

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post #39 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
Speakers/2ch Playback
Setting: Manual
Front: Large
Subwoofer: Yes
SW Mode: LFE+Main
Crossover: 40 Hz
Distance FL: 12.0 ft (I don't know what this means, I didn't change it)
Distance FR: 12.0 ft
Level FL: 0.00 dB
Level FR 0.0 dB
Set the front speakers to 'Small'.

Set the Crossover to 80 Hz.

You may want to experiment with the crossover frequency setting for stereo music listening. Increase the frequency setting by 10 Hz at a time up to about 120 Hz and listen to some tracks with good bass lines. Increase the setting until you can localize the bass coming from the SW then back it off by 10 Hz. What you especially don't want to hear is male vocals leaking through the SW channel.

The 'Distance FL/FR' are the default distance settings from the speakers to the MLP set in the processor. If you were to run the Audyssey setup, the processor might change those distances.
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post #40 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 11:14 AM
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Id do crossover a bit higher, and I would definitely try to convince myself to get a bigger subwoofer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
Speakers/2ch Playback
Setting: Manual
Front: Large
Subwoofer: Yes
SW Mode: LFE+Main
Crossover: 40 Hz
Distance FL: 12.0 ft (I don't know what this means, I didn't change it)
Distance FR: 12.0 ft
Level FL: 0.00 dB
Level FR 0.0 dB

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post #41 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
Speakers/2ch Playback
Setting: Manual
Front: Large
Subwoofer: Yes
SW Mode: LFE+Main
Crossover: 40 Hz
Distance FL: 12.0 ft (I don't know what this means, I didn't change it)
Distance FR: 12.0 ft
Level FL: 0.00 dB
Level FR 0.0 dB
Sorry if you mentioned it already but did you run the room correction using the mic to set up on your AVR so it sets your distances and xover etc? Those look like the default settings of 12ft and level of 0, highly unlikely you ran setup and it set those exactly at default. You need to run that if you haven't it will make a HUGE difference getting the distances set correctly.

Like others suggested I would raise the xover on the sub since most of the bass in music is 30-40hz and up, right now your Xover is cutting most of the bass off from getting to the sub with that low of a crossover. I would suggest even trying higher like 100,120 for music.

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post #42 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
I do have a 10" powered sub in the room. Movies tend to have life scary loud bass, and music has embarrassingly low bass. In the diagram the card table side room and the area behind the speaker and in the recessed area for the TV the bass overpowers the music.

I've heard these speakers without a powered sub in a few settings and the bass is always very nice. A lot of audiophile purists like 2 channel audio, I was hoping to resolve the problem with the towers and the room and then worry about the sub next.
Is the Sub Front-firing or Down-firing? Model might help.

It the Sub in front of room with Left-Center-Right or in the back with the surrounds?

Have you checked your Cross-Over frequencies?

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post #43 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 02:40 PM
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some good advice in this thread...have you tried any of it?
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post #44 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Odd thing is that I turned the crossover to 80 as recommended and the bass is substantially louder even with the sub turned off. (keep in mind I'm trying to solve what's wrong with the O3's before moving to correct the sub so I leave the sub off while repositioning the mains)
Turning the 10" sub on is much louder than before. Sure it isn't overwhelming and I'll still benefit from bigger multiple subs. But going from 40hz to 80hz crossover is like flipping a light switch. The bass is like what I'd expect out of a 10" sub in a big room to do. Before it was nearly non existent and sounded like the same note being played in the areas that even had the bass.
The room went from having only 2 areas with strong bass, to only one area with very weak bass.
I haven't bought a mic and a laptop to run the software just yet lol. But I'll go to microcenter today to see if they have a mic like the one suggested, maybe a 50 ft extension cable for the mic too.

Now I'd like to know why setting the bass crossover made such a huge night and day difference. Leaving the sub off the bass is substantially louder at 80 than it was at 40. That's confusing.
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post #45 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesla1856 View Post
Is the Sub Front-firing or Down-firing? Model might help.

It the Sub in front of room with Left-Center-Right or in the back with the surrounds?

Have you checked your Cross-Over frequencies?
The sub is forward firing, and just to the left of the left main.
The crossover was set at 40, now it's set to 80 and made a miraculous difference. I'm still going to get 2 bigger subs but haven't demo'd or talked with manufactures or stores yet, but now I can take my time.
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post #46 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry if you mentioned it already but did you run the room correction using the mic to set up on your AVR so it sets your distances and xover etc? Those look like the default settings of 12ft and level of 0, highly unlikely you ran setup and it set those exactly at default. You need to run that if you haven't it will make a HUGE difference getting the distances set correctly.

Like others suggested I would raise the xover on the sub since most of the bass in music is 30-40hz and up, right now your Xover is cutting most of the bass off from getting to the sub with that low of a crossover. I would suggest even trying higher like 100,120 for music.
I did set up audessy about twice, it was done by the store who sold me the Mc. They did it in front of me too. Is there an audessy for both normal surround and a different on for 2 channel?
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I turn audyssey off and use tone controls when I listen in 2.0 bass+2 tre -1

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post #48 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 03:24 PM
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if you buy a mic, buy one recommended for rew. umik 1 or dayton i believe are most popular about 80.

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post #49 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm playing some of my bass heavy songs in my new setting.
I went from practically no bass except a couple areas, to now my plantation shutters are shaking and my office chair in the next room is vibrating. The shutters are pretty loud which is a new problem I need to solve lol.

I can only find one null corner with no bass, the areas that had strong bass are still strong and sloppy. The center of the room sounds decent.
Even though the bass is strong, I don't really like my sub or at least in the room. Some notes are normal and some are extra loud. It's awkward if I pay attention.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
Speakers/2ch Playback
Setting: Manual
Front: Large
Subwoofer: Yes
SW Mode: LFE+Main
Crossover: 40 Hz
Distance FL: 12.0 ft (I don't know what this means, I didn't change it)
Distance FR: 12.0 ft
Level FL: 0.00 dB
Level FR 0.0 dB
set SW Mode: LFE Only
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post #51 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
Odd thing is that I turned the crossover to 80 as recommended and the bass is substantially louder even with the sub turned off. (keep in mind I'm trying to solve what's wrong with the O3's before moving to correct the sub so I leave the sub off while repositioning the mains)
Turning the 10" sub on is much louder than before. Sure it isn't overwhelming and I'll still benefit from bigger multiple subs. But going from 40hz to 80hz crossover is like flipping a light switch. The bass is like what I'd expect out of a 10" sub in a big room to do. Before it was nearly non existent and sounded like the same note being played in the areas that even had the bass.
The room went from having only 2 areas with strong bass, to only one area with very weak bass.
I haven't bought a mic and a laptop to run the software just yet lol. But I'll go to microcenter today to see if they have a mic like the one suggested, maybe a 50 ft extension cable for the mic too.

Now I'd like to know why setting the bass crossover made such a huge night and day difference. Leaving the sub off the bass is substantially louder at 80 than it was at 40. That's confusing.
You really won't be able to tell with any certainty what is happening with either the mains or the SW until you have measured the in-room response of the system. Twiddling knobs and moving things around will only serve to confuse you as the response changes in ways that you might not be expecting.

You need to get a UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum Labs, at the very least. They don't sell it at Microcenter. You need to order it from the website.

Room EQ Wizard (REW) is a free audio analysis software package that is widely used and respected by many AVS forum members. Sign up for an account on the AV Nirvana website to download the software and read the support forums.

While you are waiting for the UMIK-1 to arrive, look through this huge thread on how to setup your test equipment, measure, and interpret the results of your testing. You can also download this user guide to help you understand how to use REW.

One other thing. What brand/model subwoofer do you have?

Last edited by sam_adams; 10-15-2017 at 04:03 PM.
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post #52 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 03:58 PM
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I did set up audessy about twice, it was done by the store who sold me the Mc. They did it in front of me too. Is there an audessy for both normal surround and a different on for 2 channel?
You ran Audyessy as in using the microphone to measure all the speakers playing the test tones in 8 different microphone positions? That has to be a rare result to set all the settings at default.

Also, you said you were moving your speakers around so that means the distance settings are not correct anymore or the speaker levels. You rerun it whenever you move the speakers or sub.

Edit and it will depend on what mode you use to listen to 2 channel. Direct, pure etc will turn Audyessy off.

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post #53 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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You need a measurement microphone.

You need analysis software.

You need lots of time and patience.
My Unik 1 mic is on order.
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post #54 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 09:22 PM
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cool, do you have hdmi cable for laptop to pre/pro? what about a boom mic stand for $20... you got some time to read up on using rew cause it can be complicated for beginners like me. actually it made me mad...but its best thing to get to know your room and equipment so gratz on taking this step. it should help alot.

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post #55 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have a laptop. Do I actually connect a laptop to a preamp? I thought I just needed to hook up to the mic?
I have a mic stand that came with my Mcintosh.
I have a bunch of old HDMI cables laying around, and a couple audioquest modern ones.
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post #56 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 09:36 PM
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I downloaded rew onto a laptop and ran hdmi from laptop to avr....yup you need to do this...maybe a tablet or phone can be in place of laptop...but I used a laptop.

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post #57 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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One other thing. What brand/model subwoofer do you have?
An old velodyne Optimun 10 BG from 2009
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dont shy away from rew...its a very powerful free tool to help.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
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post #59 of 72 Old 10-15-2017, 11:16 PM
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Sounds like you getting on track now !


Using REW and this forum, the sound will only get better.......

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
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post #60 of 72 Old 10-16-2017, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioQuestions View Post
An old velodyne Optimun 10 BG from 2009
Do you still have the remote for the device?

Do you still have the supplied microphone for the device?

Do you still have the user manual for the device?

If have it, use the remote to reset the device to the factory defaults. The reset button sequence is in the manual. Once reset the device should show the 'P3' setting on the display. This is the flattest internal EQ setting and it engages the 15 Hz subsonic filter to protect the sub. The volume should be reset to '30'. Use the remote to set the 'Phase' to '0' (zero).

Then, rotate the 'Low Pass Crossover' knob on the device fully counter-clockwise to the 'Direct' position. This will bypass the internal XO on the device. This will prevent the SW internal XO from affecting the signal sent to it by the AVR.

Next, in the AVR settings for the speakers, set the mains to 'Small' and the subwoofer to 'LFE + Main'. Set the XO frequency to 80 Hz for the testing. Now rerun the Audyssey setup on the AVR. Once it completes, make note of the setting for the subwoofer level.

If the AVR is setting the SW level lower, -XXdb or so, decrease the volume level on the SW a few clicks and rerun Audyssey. If the AVR is setting the SW level higher, +XXdB or so, increase the volume level on the SW a few clicks and rerun Audyssey. Repeat until you get the level in the AVR close to '0' (zero) for a level adjust. One or two points either way won't really matter and you don't have to try to get it exact—just close enough for government work.

Once this setup is completed the AVR will control the settings for the XO for bass management and the LFE channel. Again, for music listening, you may want to experiment with the XO frequency in the AVR or just use the presets in the SW to adjust the EQ of the SW.

Keep reading the REW thread and the setup guide until the UMIK arrives.
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