The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies:Peak Response Edition - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 12:22 PM
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Hey guys, I have to start doing these again. What is reference levels on the VS and what does each level represent? 10dB or 5 dB gain?
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post #122 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 12:38 PM
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Hey guys, I have to start doing these again. What is reference levels on the VS and what does each level represent? 10dB or 5 dB gain?
Well coolrda will probably know best, but at one point we were considering 1e-03 as reference TR with a 5lb bag of rice for weight. The amount of weight used will effect this, as the lighter the weight, the higher the readings. But some amount of weight is needed to keep the phone bounce down and as accurate as possible, but to much weight is not good either. I think for now, we've all decided on a 5 lb bag of rice.

That 1e-03 was in g's and now we've switched to m/sec ^ for display. In going from g's to m^2's, your readings go up by 20db. So that means 1e-01 is reference, if 1e-03 was indeed what we were calling reference with the g setting. @coolrda - is this right?

EDIT: Also, yes each level is 10db

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post #123 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 01:09 PM
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Alright cool. The best thing about VS is that all the work I did before is still there. I seem to never save REW stuff lol. This was part of the Lone Survivor Scene but I am not sure if the beginning, middle or end. It is a long and torture scene for subs(mostly outlets around here).


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post #124 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 02:41 PM
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^^^ @MKtheater - Looks like your getting some pretty great TR there with those new subs!! Levels are way up there, but not sure that I've seen one that jaggedy, so not sure what that means. Very, very, very, very VIOLENT maybe!? At least that's what I'd like to think

I guess this means your loving your new low tuned ported subs then huh!?

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post #125 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 03:12 PM
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Oh I see now, I think it's the 50 second capture. Try it again somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds and I bet it wont be as jagged. Might be to much info for the VS app. But then again, maybe not. Either way, damn nice numbers and extension!

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post #126 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 03:40 PM
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Jagged means high(er) frequency content aliased into the vs frequency range
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post #127 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh I see now, I think it's the 50 second capture. Try it again somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds and I bet it wont be as jagged. Might be to much info for the VS app. But then again, maybe not. Either way, damn nice numbers and extension!
I was about to answer that and you beat me to it. MK is that with the XXX's? Also I believe that was unweighted as it was before we started using weight. This is a good example of why we use short duration runs. However, we will use long duration in this thread as we will be comparing some of the top one min plus captures as well.
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post #128 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I want to expand on PSD amplitude. As mentioned its a decade(10) and therefore comparable to 10db using a db scale. I say comparable because it only matches up if using a single frequency sine. Randon vibration is just that and the reason we need a FFT'd power spectrum plot. Literally there's hundreds of plot point and I'll post one of these .csv files soon just for reference. Anyway the measurement unit is called Energy over Frequency. 10ef sounds and looks weird so I use points or pt. We should use the correct unit I guess so i will from now on.

Is there a difference between PSD and Power Spectrum? Half the engineers online say no, their the same and the other half say yes. 3ll3d00d says their basically the same. I'm going with that. From here on I don't care if you refer to PSD, Power Spec, Power, etc, it'll be assumed your talking about the Power Spectrum plot. Power(energy over frequency) and Vibration(acceleration over time) are to two main elements or ingredients that make up our tactile response. The two go hand in hand. The best analogy I've come up with is consider power to be the torque and vibration the horsepower of our TR. We started thinking vibration amplitude was the key figure and components. We discovered later TR is all about PS.
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post #129 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 04:20 PM
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Love this thread guys...miss contributing, but have my hands full! Keep up the great work and keep moving the AV science forward!

-Dom
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post #130 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Alright cool. The best thing about VS is that all the work I did before is still there. I seem to never save REW stuff lol. This was part of the Lone Survivor Scene but I am not sure if the beginning, middle or end. It is a long and torture scene for subs(mostly outlets around here).



Those numbers !!!!!!!! NICE!

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post #131 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 05:12 PM
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I am tired of being left out, I just ordered a lot of 200 movies......


If my bid gets accepted it will be 400......
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post #132 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Well coolrda will probably know best, but at one point we were considering 1e-03 as reference TR with a 5lb bag of rice for weight. The amount of weight used will effect this, as the lighter the weight, the higher the readings. But some amount of weight is needed to keep the phone bounce down and as accurate as possible, but to much weight is not good either. I think for now, we've all decided on a 5 lb bag of rice.

That 1e-03 was in g's and now we've switched to m/sec ^ for display. In going from g's to m^2's, your readings go up by 20db. So that means 1e-01 is reference, if 1e-03 was indeed what we were calling reference with the g setting. @coolrda - is this right?

EDIT: Also, yes each level is 10db
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Alright cool. The best thing about VS is that all the work I did before is still there. I seem to never save REW stuff lol. This was part of the Lone Survivor Scene but I am not sure if the beginning, middle or end. It is a long and torture scene for subs(mostly outlets around here).


I thought that was the BLA scene at the 1:43:00 mark. Get the white noise 0-50 and and a 5lb bag of rice and get you systems baseline then pick some movies and let’er rip.
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post #133 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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This is why all eq should be removed when capping scenes. I raised the volume to compensate. At first I thought it was below 20hz that was raised but it actually the upper 30hz getting squashed by audy’s room correction.

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post #134 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 07:25 PM
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Sorry guys, this was my older system, check out the date. I thought it was lone survivor based on how long it was but I did do BLA as well. They are all in my phone. I did not use weight but I did stick it in the crease of the seat so it does not move, maybe more pressure than 5 pounds. I have to put the xxx ported to the test, they should be even better!
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post #135 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 08:07 PM
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Looks like all my bids/offers went thru.......645 movies for 250 bucks !!!!



I am in now, no more left on the porch for me !
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post #136 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like all my bids/offers went thru.......645 movies for 250 bucks !!!!



I am in now, no more left on the porch for me !
Blu-ray?
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post #137 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 08:24 PM
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Blu-ray?


.....just DVD`s............

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post #138 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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.....just DVD`s............
Hey man, that gets you a seat at the table. There’s actually quite a few movies I have where the dvd is the preferred soundtrack over the br.
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post #139 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Sorry guys, this was my older system, check out the date. I thought it was lone survivor based on how long it was but I did do BLA as well. They are all in my phone. I did not use weight but I did stick it in the crease of the seat so it does not move, maybe more pressure than 5 pounds. I have to put the xxx ported to the test, they should be even better!
Ah yeah after my comments I noticed the date and realized it was an old reading. Well your new ones with the new xxx subs will probably be even better. Are they in the same location or close in relation to your MLP?

Yeah I was kind of tucking the edge of the phone on my old couch there for a while when I my setup was downstairs in the big open room, but then when back to the rice weight. It did work fairly well though, and also jumped my readings up about 10db above 12hz. Below 12hz, no weight made it lower. More weight reads more ultra low end TR.

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post #140 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 08:36 PM
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Hey man, that gets you a seat at the table. There’s actually quite a few movies I have where the dvd is the preferred soundtrack over the br.

I only have a 1080 PJ right now, so with upscaling a lot of DVD`s look close to BR quality. I am hooked on Atmos right now, so I stopped at about 40 BR`s and started buying 4K`s for the Atmos.

Maybe by the end of next year I can step up to a 4k PJ !



There is bound to be some duplicates and movies I will never watch.......I figure if I get 300 or so keepers out of it I am good.


I will offer up what I do not keep if anyone needs anything.


The bluray lots were more than I wanted to spend on a set of fixed titles with no choice.........100 of those were up in the 300+ dollar range, which is a very good deal, just out of my budget for I cant be bothered to shop for hundreds of movies so on a whim I will order a pallet and sort thru em.....LOL


I am a old codger, I grew up with 21 inch floor/console televisions......so I am very happy with DVD quality, I appreciate the BR quality and 4k, but it is not like DVD`s are like watching a vcr tape or a 21 inch console with rabbits ears.....
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post #141 of 176 Old 12-20-2017, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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which line represents reference level or 115 db peaks?
1e01
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post #142 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I like the move to using m/s units for acceleration and peak vibration. It’s closer to 1.0ef or 1e00. The less decimal the better if you ask me.

It may be a good time/idea to take a look at reference level again. We original arrived at 1e03g or 1e01m/s by subjective evaluation and we discussed if 1e04 was closer to where we should be. If we’re gonna possibly make an adjustment, nows the time. Personally I’m going to take a look at this, in the interest of blending my rear sub with the MA’s.

We discussed this a bit but this is how I’ll do it. I’m taking the Zero Point of my subs response which should remain constant over distance once that point is established in each room(I’ll test that to be sure). The zero point is the point in frequency where FR and TR meet or are equal, right where room gain starts or the longest dimension in your room. Then it should be as simple as measuring SPL and Power at that point using the WN050. Then adjust MA’s to that and done. That should establish a true reference match to 115db spec. It could work with NF/VNF subs only or all subs or not at all but thats the only thing I can think of at the moment. If it works, great. Then you can adjust your system to your personally liking from there knowing theres a reference to set to and use with SC’s.

Another alternative is use the manual level setting in an AVR/PP to set your subs and TT’s up. I don’t know if we’ve ever measured a subs SPL/TR ratio over distance. While moving the subs closer raises TR 10-100x it should do the same with spl.

This is @3ll3d00d 's FR over TR.

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post #143 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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post #144 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 08:42 AM
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I thin that was BLA, this might be Lone Survivor



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post #145 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I thin that was BLA, this might be Lone Survivor


That’s Lone Survivor for sure.
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post #146 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 10:32 AM
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This is why all eq should be removed when capping scenes. I raised the volume to compensate. At first I thought it was below 20hz that was raised but it actually the upper 30hz getting squashed by audy’s room correction.

This is a great illustration on what our rooms and the correction it needs (Audy or manual) to get our FR flat can do to our TR! I've got a peak in FR between 40-50hz that has to be cut on my VNFs. Drives me nuts. I do it pre- Audy in the miniDSP. Sometimes I'll just let Audy handle it, but I kind of like to take care of it pre-Audy.

I usually like to run my MA's/TT's out of the Oppo though, and doesn't get touched with any correction from Audy. So at least my MAs and BK's shouldn't be effected at all for these readings if I don't disable Audy, or at least my miniDSP peak cuts for my subs. But I can do that for these readings.

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post #147 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
I like the move to using m/s units for acceleration and peak vibration. It’s closer to 1.0ef or 1e00. The less decimal the better if you ask me.

It may be a good time/idea to take a look at reference level again. We original arrived at 1e03g or 1e01m/s by subjective evaluation and we discussed if 1e04 was closer to where we should be. If we’re gonna possibly make an adjustment, nows the time. Personally I’m going to take a look at this, in the interest of blending my rear sub with the MA’s.

We discussed this a bit but this is how I’ll do it. I’m taking the Zero Point of my subs response which should remain constant over distance once that point is established in each room(I’ll test that to be sure). The zero point is the point in frequency where FR and TR meet or are equal, right where room gain starts or the longest dimension in your room. Then it should be as simple as measuring SPL and Power at that point using the WN050. Then adjust MA’s to that and done. That should establish a true reference match to 115db spec. It could work with NF/VNF subs only or all subs or not at all but thats the only thing I can think of at the moment. If it works, great. Then you can adjust your system to your personally liking from there knowing theres a reference to set to and use with SC’s.

Another alternative is use the manual level setting in an AVR/PP to set your subs and TT’s up. I don’t know if we’ve ever measured a subs SPL/TR ratio over distance. While moving the subs closer raises TR 10-100x it should do the same with spl.
Yes it should work this way I would think, but don't know to what extent. But, one thing I do know is that I can stand to listen to my subs with higher gain levels the closer they are to me. Even if it is higher SPL, it's just cleaner sounding I guess and doesn't start becoming offensive to the ears as fast, plus giving the extra impact and TR of the subs being closer. I've thought this when my setup was in my large open living room and now in this 1400cuft room as well.

EDIT: I forget to mention, yeah that could work pretty good about taking the zero point of the subs and then matching MAs to it. Especially for a base, then adjust to taste if that is desired. Which for me is. I tend to like my MAs/TT's a bit higher than what my VNF subs give to get the desired feel I'm after (which to me feels balanced on my system).

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post #148 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 11:03 AM
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I don't see the point of removing any EQ when measuring these scenes, isn't the point to compare how they feel in your actual setup?

If you want to measure your actual response then just use a reference signal (white noise), measure that once and that's that.
If you want to see what's in the content then measure that directly by using speclab or similar on the particular scene.
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post #149 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 11:49 AM
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I can relate to both of your guys points here. I think cool is wanting these graphs to be as accurate as possible (following the actual PVA of source). Although, I don't know that they will ever be perfect because of the some of the reasons recently discussed/mentioned about how well VS captures some of the TR at certain frequencies and not as well at others (I don't know that we will ever get our TR readings on WH0-50 perfectly flat across the board, and that is what it will take to match these source of the clip perfectly).

And yes, these are a great way to compare and talk about how certain clips feel in your system, and is nice to see what the TR from that system looks like.

I'm not sure what the right answer is for these VS movie clip readings. I don't think that we want to make it to over complicated and need to be able to have fun with this. But we probably need to decide on some procedures so to get us on the same page (or close anyway). Its probably not going to make THAT big of a difference for most folks if we use no EQ or do use EQ (maybe 5db or so in certain areas. 10db in certain areas on coolrda's illustration - so yes that can be a lot!). But this is not how he will run his system for real world use. I think we may just need to do whatever it takes to get our TR looking as good as we can with the WN0-50, whether that takes EQ or not, while trying to keep a good FR. Then let'r rip on these VSings on your favorite clips and have some fun with it
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post #150 of 176 Old 12-21-2017, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I don't see the point of removing any EQ when measuring these scenes, isn't the point to compare how they feel in your actual setup?

If you want to measure your actual response then just use a reference signal (white noise), measure that once and that's that.
If you want to see what's in the content then measure that directly by using speclab or similar on the particular scene.
That would be excellent. I know a few have done mic’d Speclab over the years which basically tells us nothing about system TR. Signal based would be needed, like the PvA’s or waterfalls. Now we would have a source of reference caps to judge our system TR against. But who’s going to do that?

My workflow with this is such. I watch a movie through entirely with time code up and mark the big sfx scenes. I edit the time stamps to find the peaks and break down longer scenes into small chunks. Once that’s done and I have my list of stamps and I can knock out 40 of those in an hour. So I can have a whole 90 min feature done in 4hrs depending on complexity. I don’t know if this can be done this quickly with SL. I don’t know that anyone is even interested in doing that. If no ones interested, where right back here. We only need one of us doing this per movie.

As far as showing our systems capability, I do want that. I’ve actually diagnosed and fixed my system based on others system response. That was huge. I want to see what a sub only tactile system is capable of. And re-eqing for a soundtrack that sucks. If there’s any SL’ers that want to tackle this, by all means please do. That would be very welcome.
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