Is a 15" sub a significant upgrade from a PB-1000? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 68 Old 11-22-2017, 08:09 PM
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Thank you very much! I think I'll be going the PSA route. They were easy to communicate. Remembered my experience with Chane speakers. I like that type of customer service.

My next step is deciding between 15, 18 or probably the S3000i. Still reading and researching. In the meantime maybe one of them hit the outlet. :cD


Go big with a S3601 if going single sub especially


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post #32 of 68 Old 11-22-2017, 08:09 PM
 
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Thank you very much! I think I'll be going the PSA route. They were easy to communicate. Remembered my experience with Chane speakers. I like that type of customer service.

My next step is deciding between 15, 18 or probably the S3000i. Still reading and researching. In the meantime maybe one of them hit the outlet. :cD
If you can swing the S3000i , easy choice... I have the S36s and enjoy them..i really was thinking of adding a s3000i to them , but after listening again today in a 6500^3 plus/minus room....it may just be overkill...i really did see some structural damage today as some crown moldings gap as mysteriously expanded..

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post #33 of 68 Old 11-22-2017, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Then you definitely want to go with a big sealed system. I know I sound like a broken record, but if you?re looking for ULF, sealed is the way to go in your room!
. My room is not completely sealed. There's an opening in the back-right-side (size of a door) into the dinning area. Also there are 3 top-bottom windows (2 @ front + 1 back-left-side) I think they act like a bass trap in the sense that if they are partially open, the bass energy will move out of the room (not bounce). I'll try to post a diagram tomorrow. Anyway right now that sealed 18 is my first option on the list.

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post #34 of 68 Old 11-22-2017, 08:22 PM
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. My room is not completely sealed. There's an opening in the back-right-side (size of a door) into the dinning area. Also there are 3 top-bottom windows (2 @ front + 1 back-left-side) I think they act like a bass trap in the sense that if they are partially open, the bass energy will move out of the room (not bounce). I'll try to post a diagram tomorrow. Anyway right now that sealed 18 is my first option on the list.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!
For all intents and purposes, your room is sealed. A door-sized opening isn’t large enough to let the bass escape, so to speak.

My humble main system:
Vizio M75-E1; Oppo 203 universal UHD player; Denon 4300H AVR, Dual PSA S1801's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; one pair NHT mini Atmos speakers; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, GeForce 980Ti, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case); Roku Premiere+; Amazon 4K Fire TV
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post #35 of 68 Old 11-22-2017, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by webie View Post
. My room is not completely sealed. There's an opening in the back-right-side (size of a door) into the dinning area. Also there are 3 top-bottom windows (2 @ front + 1 back-left-side) I think they act like a bass trap in the sense that if they are partially open, the bass energy will move out of the room (not bounce). I'll try to post a diagram tomorrow. Anyway right now that sealed 18 is my first option on the list.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!
For all intents and purposes, your room is sealed. A door-sized opening isn?t large enough to let the bass escape, so to speak. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
Also, it's full concrete with marble floors. About 3 months ago I placed 5 acoustic panels (OC 703) wrapped in black speaker cloth to test. I placed 3 on the back an 1 on each side for first reflections. The difference in SQ and bass was really noticable. Now I'm waiting for a custom printed art to arrive. The idea is to have the panels blend into the living room decoration. Lastly, DW is looking for a matching decor rug to help me tame floor reflections.

I can push for the S3601 but I'm not sure how to position that sub in my roo. with drivers on opposite sides. My posible locations will have one of the drivers really close to a wall or hitting a window.
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post #36 of 68 Old 11-22-2017, 08:53 PM
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I can push for the S3601 but I'm not sure how to position that sub in my roo. with drivers on opposite sides. My posible locations will have one of the drivers really close to a wall or hitting a window.
I wouldn’t worry too much about having one of the drivers close to a wall. After all, if you went with a 15S, the driver would be close to the floor.

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post #37 of 68 Old 11-24-2017, 02:01 PM
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Iron's law basically says: there is no free lunch and go big or go home.
And well... you're already home!
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post #38 of 68 Old 11-24-2017, 02:05 PM
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For all intents and purposes, your room is sealed. A door-sized opening isn’t large enough to let the bass escape, so to speak.
In some cases a door will act like a room sized port, which may increase the SPL below 20hz.
That is the case in my room. YMMV.
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post #39 of 68 Old 11-27-2017, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I started this thread asking for a 15" and just ordered the 18" PSA S1801. Let's see how significant it's from PB1000 to 18". Hopefully it will be here Friday for a weekend of testing.
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post #40 of 68 Old 11-27-2017, 08:10 AM
 
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Well, I started this thread asking for a 15" and just ordered the 18" PSA S1801. Let's see how significant it's from PB1000 to 18". Hopefully it will be here Friday for a weekend of testing.
Congrats.....Looking forward to your impressions!!!
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post #41 of 68 Old 11-27-2017, 12:14 PM
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post #42 of 68 Old 11-29-2017, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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FedEx just delivered my new S1801 @ office before the Friday expected date. YAY!!!! Now to see how it compares to the PB-1000 in my small room.

Quick question: Do anyone recommends to use both subs in my room (maybe the PB-1000) nearfield behind MLP? I did a quick search on the forums and apparently it's not recommended but they were different scenarios. I do have Audyssey xt32 (x4300h). This is my current room config:

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post #43 of 68 Old 11-29-2017, 11:39 AM
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FedEx just delivered my new S1801 @ office before the Friday expected date. YAY!!!! Now to see how it compares to the PB-1000 in my small room.

Quick question: Do anyone recommends to use both subs in my room (maybe the PB-1000) nearfield behind MLP? I did a quick search on the forums and apparently it's not recommended but they were different scenarios. I do have Audyssey xt32 (x4300h). This is my current room config:

I would not mix the two. It is difficult to get sealed and ported subs to play together nicely.

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post #44 of 68 Old 11-29-2017, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I would not mix the two. It is difficult to get sealed and ported subs to play together nicely.
Thanks! That's what I have found so far... Getting ready to leave office.....
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post #45 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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After connecting the S1801 @ the front stage (above picture) without running Audyssey xt32 or changing distances on the receiver X4300h here are my first impressions:

Settings: Gain at 1 o'clock from 11 on previous sub, AVR sub level -1 from -5 previously, Room size setting small.
Tests: Atmos Demos (Amaze, Horizon, Conductor, GOT), Stranger Things (First Episode Intro),

1. It definitely feels like a bigger/fuller sound sub but it was not a day/night difference like the upgrade from my HTIB sub to the PB1000. That was an eye opener. From a rumble sound to actually felling. I don't know if jumping into the $500 sub range is were the fun begins or my first HTIB was really that bad.

2. At that location the TR feels somewhat like the old sub nearfield (behind the couch) but not that strong. I'll probably try to place the sub on that spot and test the TR. It should be impressive.

3. ULF is definitely there. I was briefly playing with a tone generator at 20hz and below, and then comes DW running, "Did you feel it... there was a small earthquake, appliances were vibrating all over the kitchen..." I started LOL "It was you, ahhh??? That was the new sub??" PRICELESSS!!!!

So far, it's was not what I was expecting compared to my first $500 upgrade. This one cost 3x that so my expectations were much more higher. But also I don't know anyone with a better system to compare were I'm at.

Now I need to re-run Audyssey over the weekend and see... It's impossible at night here in PR with all the "Coqui" and generator sounds ;c)
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post #46 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 08:27 AM
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Pretty cool thread. Waiting on update!
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post #47 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by webie View Post
After connecting the S1801 @ the front stage (above picture) without running Audyssey xt32 or changing distances on the receiver X4300h here are my first impressions:

Settings: Gain at 1 o'clock from 11 on previous sub, AVR sub level -1 from -5 previously, Room size setting small.
Tests: Atmos Demos (Amaze, Horizon, Conductor, GOT), Stranger Things (First Episode Intro),

1. It definitely feels like a bigger/fuller sound sub but it was not a day/night difference like the upgrade from my HTIB sub to the PB1000. That was an eye opener. From a rumble sound to actually felling. I don't know if jumping into the $500 sub range is were the fun begins or my first HTIB was really that bad.

2. At that location the TR feels somewhat like the old sub nearfield (behind the couch) but not that strong. I'll probably try to place the sub on that spot and test the TR. It should be impressive.

3. ULF is definitely there. I was briefly playing with a tone generator at 20hz and below, and then comes DW running, "Did you feel it... there was a small earthquake, appliances were vibrating all over the kitchen..." I started LOL "It was you, ahhh??? That was the new sub??" PRICELESSS!!!!

So far, it's was not what I was expecting compared to my first $500 upgrade. This one cost 3x that so my expectations were much more higher. But also I don't know anyone with a better system to compare were I'm at.

Now I need to re-run Audyssey over the weekend and see... It's impossible at night here in PR with all the "Coqui" and generator sounds ;c)
1) Set the room size to large and re-run Audyssey. By setting the room size to small, you are substantially reducing low bass output before applying EQ. You can set the room size to taste *after* Audyssey set up.

2) Set the gain high enough to where Audyssey is returning at least -6 to -8 dB on the sub level (-12 dB if you want to run super hot). This will give you enough room to run the sub hot by increasing the sub trim, but without clipping the signal from the AVR's sub out. I run my subs +3 dB hot, many like to run +6 dB hot or even more. Just depends on your tastes.

3) Make sure your speakers are set to SMALL after running Audyssey. I recommend setting the crossovers at 80 hz or even 100 hz.

4) Your HTIB was likely that bad. The jump from a crappy HTIB to a good $500 sub like the PB1000 is enormous, as you found out. And trying to recreate that kind of jump again will require even more money and subs. But you have yet to tap the potential of the S1801--get it set up right, and I have no doubt it will put a big grin on your face!
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@sk373 beat me to it! What he said!


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post #49 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Ran Audyssey, with the gain @ aprox 10 o'clock. In the end my sub level was set @ -7.5. Changed it to -1.5 (+6db) and upped gain to 12 o'clock. There's definitely a noticable difference compared to last night. So I think the upgrade was overall a significant one; from the definition and output point of view.

TR is better but still not PB1000 nearfield better. Still at the current sub location the PB1000 was unable to produce that kind of TR. So I'll try to move the S1801 nearfield tomorrow and re-run Audyssey. There I expect a massive TR. So far the sub is growing on me.

Finally, did notice a much better mid bass response compared to pb1000 in music.

All other settings are as always: speakers small, cross 80hz, lpf 90hz.
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post #50 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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It's ok to move up the gain on the sub after calibration or just the levels on the avr?
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post #51 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 02:53 PM
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Did you set the room control to Large? I would set the gain high enough in the beginning to have Audyssey come back at -10 dB to -12 dB--looks like you like it really hot, so you need room to increase it more via sub trim.

Once the gain is set, I recommend leaving it there. It isn't a bad thing per se to increase the gain after running Audyssey, but the problem with doing that is that you do not know how much you are increasing it by, versus using the sub trim on the receiver.

I recommend trying a 100 hz crossover and setting LPF to 120 hz on the receiver.

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post #52 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you set the room control to Large? I would set the gain high enough in the beginning to have Audyssey come back at -10 dB to -12 dB--looks like you like it really hot, so you need room to increase it more via sub trim.

Once the gain is set, I recommend leaving it there. It isn't a bad thing per se to increase the gain after running Audyssey, but the problem with doing that is that you do not know how much you are increasing it by, versus using the sub trim on the receiver.

I recommend trying a 100 hz crossover and setting LPF to 120 hz on the receiver.
I set the room control to large when calibrating. Afterwards I tried different adjustments. For music I preferred near small. But in movies the large sounded better.

About the gain, I was looking for more TR but already lowered to to 10 again. I'll try a near field setup tomorrow with your recommend settings.

Thanks!!!
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post #53 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 04:32 PM
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Well, I started this thread asking for a 15" and just ordered the 18" PSA S1801. Let's see how significant it's from PB1000 to 18". Hopefully it will be here Friday for a weekend of testing.
Congrats on stepping right into the rabbit hole. This place will spend your money faster than congress.
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post #54 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 04:33 PM
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It's ok to move up the gain on the sub after calibration or just the levels on the avr?


If you read mike Thomas’s guide to audyssey, you will see the recommendation is to keep the AVR trims well into the negatives and bump the gain on the sub. This will keep the AVR from clipping at high volumes. Also Tom’s recommendation is to run Audyssey with room setting at 12 and then go small or large. This gives you enough wiggle room either way.


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post #55 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Congrats on stepping right into the rabbit hole. This place will spend your money faster than congress.[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]
You have no idea!!! Not only I stepped in, I'm really down there... Just got my umik-1 yesterday and now reading about REW. Unfortunately my old laptop does not have hdmi and I don't have th 3.5 to rca cable. So there goes more $$$.

By this time last year I would never have thought spending more than $300 in a pair of speakers; let alone a $500 sub.
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post #56 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 05:39 PM
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Leave your sub around 10-11 o’clock. If it comes back around -7 to -8 then bump it 3 to 4db and leave it. Make sure LPF for LFE is at 120...


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post #57 of 68 Old 11-30-2017, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Leave your sub around 10-11 o?clock. If it comes back around -7 to -8 then bump it 3 to 4db and leave it. Make sure LPF for LFE is at 120...


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Thanks! That's basically what I did about an hour ago; and now it sounds more balanced. I returned the sub to 10 o'clock (same as before calibration) and then set my sub level to -3.5 (up 4db from -7.5 after calibration) while also set the LPF to 120 and all crossover to 100hz.

For testing purposes a few minutes ago moved the sub to nearfield behind couch. I changed distance manually on the AVR by calculating the physical distance with the difference of the calibration distance. I know it's not perfect, but WOW! TR is so intense there. I'll re-calibrate in that position tomorrow and see
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post #58 of 68 Old 12-01-2017, 08:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by webie View Post
Thanks! That's basically what I did about an hour ago; and now it sounds more balanced. I returned the sub to 10 o'clock (same as before calibration) and then set my sub level to -3.5 (up 4db from -7.5 after calibration) while also set the LPF to 120 and all crossover to 100hz.

For testing purposes a few minutes ago moved the sub to nearfield behind couch. I changed distance manually on the AVR by calculating the physical distance with the difference of the calibration distance. I know it's not perfect, but WOW! TR is so intense there. I'll re-calibrate in that position tomorrow and see
Funny how just a couple of settings from your initial impression of "Meh" , to this now! lol......I still think the S3000i would have been the HTIB to PB-1000 wow factor you were looking for , but you may have what you are looking for at the moment! Congrats and enjoy...
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post #59 of 68 Old 12-01-2017, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
Funny how just a couple of settings from your initial impression of "Meh" , to this now! lol......I still think the S3000i would have been the HTIB to PB-1000 wow factor you were looking for , but you may have what you are looking for at the moment! Congrats and enjoy...
On spot! From "Meh" to "Good" but still not "Wow Factor". I think from PB1000 performance up, it's just more power and better definition from an non audiophile point of view. But as I'm learning more about this, I'm starting to see the great differences between the 10" and 18" premium subs; at least in my small room. I'll wait a few days for the sub to break-in to give an update.
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post #60 of 68 Old 12-01-2017, 09:54 AM
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Congrats on the upgrade and enjoy your new sub! I would also try running both subs. It is more difficult to integrate different subs (especially ported vs sealed) as some people posted above, but Audyssey on your x4300 will EQ two subs separately, which will make it much easier.

I'm a fan of dual subs to avoid localization issues and to smooth the response over multiple listening positions. It makes even more sense if you want to position one sub for smooth FR and move the other nearfield for impact. I'm currently running a ported 15" and sealed 12" and am happy with the integration (though I do plan to upgrade the 12" after figuring out acoustic treatments and atmos).
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