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post #61 of 84 Old 06-11-2018, 01:52 PM
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My friend is a paradigm rep, having heard pretty much everything paradigm has to offer for the past several years I would say to strongly not get the paradigm for that kinda dough. Svs, monolith, rythmik, and hsu all make much better subs. I would certainly take a monolith 15 over the sub 2. I’m glad to hear the deal fell through for you because you would have wasted a lot of money.
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post #62 of 84 Old 06-11-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
You will definitely feel the PSA 7201, in my case 2x 7201. I had some friends over last weekend and watched Mad Max for the first time with the 7201s. A half empty wine glass was dancing around the coffee table, a decorative candle tray found its way off a bookshelf (the girlfriend wasn't too happy) and a ceramic jar met its demise when it decided to jump off the pantry shelf. I have a very large open layout to fill (it is described in earlier posts on this thread), the tactile sensation produced by the 7201 is admirable given the area. I couldn't imagine the response in an enclosed dedicated room- well, yes I can: it would be scary.

I still haven't watched enough content to deliver my final review on the dual PSA 7201 yet. Although I am happy with them, it still has me wondering how the other brand's big players would sound in my room. The best way to describe my experience with the PSA 7201s is with a food analogy. Growing up in Buffalo NY I know good chicken wings (what most parts of the country call 'Buffalo Wings'). Duff's are my favorite, every time I am in town I stop at Duff's. Many chicken wing joints have opened since I left the area but I will never give them a chance. Why? Because I know there cannot be a better wing than Duff's and I would not want to miss out on an opportunity to have Duff's by trying another bar's attempt at making a good wing. I do not have the same sentiment with regard to the 7201, I am left wondering if there is a better experience out there for my listening environment.

The thing I am struggling with is what is ultimately limiting the movie experience- is it the way the content is mixed or the way the 7201 reproduces it. For example Mad Max offered thunderous, deep and tight bass with regard to the truck noises and orchestral drums, however, the gun shots/explosions paled in comparison. So much so that my friends pointed it out after the movie was over. They were still impressed by the performance, but were quite perplexed at the discrepancy in sound effects.

In the films I have watched I am constantly evaluating. There have been bright spots- but also moments where I am thinking "well, that should have been louder/deeper". Has the PSA 7201 turned me into a content snob or is it not meeting my expectation because of design+integration limitations? I am honestly not sure. Prior to delivering my final review I want to watch a wide variety content to better unpack this question- I am currently viewing ~1 movie/month.

I am curious how dual JTR Captivator 4000ULFs would sound in my room compared to the dual PSA 7201. If anyone wants to bring some over I would be more than happy to host a shootout at my home in Albany NY

Hi,

Your bolded statement surprised me. Are you really putting that much elapsed time between your movie watching sessions? I went back to your first post to refresh my recollection of your room, and of your prior subwoofer history, and part of what I believe you are experiencing may be attributable to the difference between ported and sealed subs. Ported subs deliver more overt tactile sensations than sealed subs do. Depending on the subwoofer, they can be much more overt. So, although you are undoubtedly able to achieve very high sound pressure levels, and although you are able to hit low-frequencies as well, the tactile sensations you feel when you do it are very different from what you experienced previously.

The shipping aspect of this wouldn't be a lot of fun, but I think that if you were able to exchange your S7201's for four V3611's, your experience would be very different. Alternatively, if you wanted to sell your S7201's, I think that a couple of Cap 4000 ULF's would also completely change your listening impressions. The four V3611's would have much more low-bass than the two S7201's, and more tactile low and mid-bass across the board. The Cap 4000's would have more tactile bass (combined with lower bass) than anything else I can think of.

For the amount of money involved, it might even be worth a field trip, if someone in your general area has some Cap 4000's, or Cap 2400's, or for that matter V3601's, you can listen to. I think that the experience might be very enlightening.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #63 of 84 Old 06-12-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I do not have the same sentiment with regard to the 7201, I am left wondering if there is a better experience out there for my listening environment.

The thing I am struggling with is what is ultimately limiting the movie experience- is it the way the content is mixed or the way the 7201 reproduces it. For example Mad Max offered thunderous, deep and tight bass with regard to the truck noises and orchestral drums, however, the gun shots/explosions paled in comparison. So much so that my friends pointed it out after the movie was over. They were still impressed by the performance, but were quite perplexed at the discrepancy in sound effects.

In the films I have watched I am constantly evaluating. There have been bright spots- but also moments where I am thinking "well, that should have been louder/deeper". Has the PSA 7201 turned me into a content snob or is it not meeting my expectation because of design+integration limitations?
With these supersubs I find it hard to believe anyone with duals is running out of headroom. It is most likely integration (placement, EQ, seating positions, etc.). I see a lack of placement flexibility as the potential downside of these supersubs. (Sub2, S7201, Cap 4000ULF).

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post #64 of 84 Old 06-12-2018, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Your bolded statement surprised me. Are you really putting that much elapsed time between your movie watching sessions? I went back to your first post to refresh my recollection of your room, and of your prior subwoofer history, and part of what I believe you are experiencing may be attributable to the difference between ported and sealed subs. Ported subs deliver more overt tactile sensations than sealed subs do. Depending on the subwoofer, they can be much more overt. So, although you are undoubtedly able to achieve very high sound pressure levels, and although you are able to hit low-frequencies as well, the tactile sensations you feel when you do it are very different from what you experienced previously.

The shipping aspect of this wouldn't be a lot of fun, but I think that if you were able to exchange your S7201's for four V3611's, your experience would be very different. Alternatively, if you wanted to sell your S7201's, I think that a couple of Cap 4000 ULF's would also completely change your listening impressions. The four V3611's would have much more low-bass than the two S7201's, and more tactile low and mid-bass across the board. The Cap 4000's would have more tactile bass (combined with lower bass) than anything else I can think of.

For the amount of money involved, it might even be worth a field trip, if someone in your general area has some Cap 4000's, or Cap 2400's, or for that matter V3601's, you can listen to. I think that the experience might be very enlightening.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Unfortunately that is accurate, I'm averaging about 1.3 movies/month. Don't get me wrong I would love to watch more frequently but work tends to get in the way and am either too tired or tied up with other responsibilities during my 'free time'.

I have watched the following movies since receiving my 7201s back in January:

Star Wars Force Awakens
Star Wars Last Jedi
John Wick
John Wick 2
Jumanji (original 4k remaster)
Great Gatsby
Mad Max
Tron

Of those Tron + John Wick were the only ones to put a smile on my face.

To your point of sealed vs ported. My favorite subwoofer of all time was the Epik Legend- a dual opposed sealed. I was in a dorm room in college that was ~ 8 x 12 but its response that I experienced in that small room is what I have been chasing ever since.

I'm beginning to think that my room may be the culprit. The 7201s measure excellently- I was able to achieve an even better calibration which is flat down to about 6Hz which scalled uncompressed up to ~113dB (did not try pushing them harder), however, the sheer amount of volume there is to fill with the open layout and a mix of 14ft and 9ft ceilings may just be too much for the experience I am after. I would love to do an A/B comparison with a vented super-sub in my room. *Cough* Tom *Cough* please send me 2x V7201 for evaluation

I don't want anyone to misconstrue this as being negative toward the 7201. PSA/Tom offer great products (including the 7201) and support. I was just trying to provide honest feedback to whasaaaab based on my experience in my listening environment. I also need to watch more movies prior to issuing my final review.

Cheers,

Tony
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post #65 of 84 Old 06-12-2018, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
With these supersubs I find it hard to believe anyone with duals is running out of headroom. It is most likely integration (placement, EQ, seating positions, etc.). I see a lack of placement flexibility as the potential downside of these supersubs. (Sub2, S7201, Cap 4000ULF).

Hi Marc,

I think it is a combination of the volume of my room and the unknown measurements of my past subs. I only started dabbling in calibration/REW with the 7201s. My latest measurements are on my home PC, but they have improved since the last time I posted- I am now flat to ~6Hz and run them +10dB hot from what Audyssey tells me I should. Perhaps my other subs/rooms had a crazy house curve that I have become accustomed to and now I find flat dull.
Unfortunately the only subs I have had in the main listening area of my new house are the Sub 2 (which was defective) and the 7201s, so I can't really compare apples to apples with my past experiences.

Regards,

Tony

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post #66 of 84 Old 06-12-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
Hi Marc,

I think it is a combination of the volume of my room and the unknown measurements of my past subs. I only started dabbling in calibration/REW with the 7201s. My latest measurements are on my home PC, but they have improved since the last time I posted- I am now flat to ~6Hz and run them +10dB hot from what Audyssey tells me I should. Perhaps my other subs/rooms had a crazy house curve that I have become accustomed to and now I find flat dull.
Unfortunately the only subs I have had in the main listening area of my new house are the Sub 2 (which was defective) and the 7201s, so I can't really compare apples to apples with my past experiences.

Regards,

Tony
I would be interested in taking a look at your REW measurements especially the waterfalls). I'd also like more details about where the subs are placed in relation to the room boundaries and seating positions. Pics would be great.

Where are you located?
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post #67 of 84 Old 06-12-2018, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I would be interested in taking a look at your REW measurements especially the waterfalls). I'd also like more details about where the subs are placed in relation to the room boundaries and seating positions. Pics would be great.

Where are you located?
Hey Marc
There's some pictures on the previous page (post 47)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post55837536
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
TV: Panasonic P65ST60 AVR: Denon 4311ci Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Dual Seaton SubMersives

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post #68 of 84 Old 06-12-2018, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I would be interested in taking a look at your REW measurements especially the waterfalls). I'd also like more details about where the subs are placed in relation to the room boundaries and seating positions. Pics would be great.

Where are you located?
Hi Marc,

I have attached the measurements taken from the MLP. I also copied the picture from my previous post that jamiebosco mentioned. I sit centered behind that half wall on the L shaped couch. I live in Albany NY (about 2.5hrs north of the NYC).

Thanks,

Tony
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	80Hz Cross Over +10dB FR.JPG
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ID:	2415380   Click image for larger version

Name:	80Hz Cross Over +10dB WaterFall.JPG
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ID:	2415382   Click image for larger version

Name:	Seating Position.jpg
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ID:	2415384  

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post #69 of 84 Old 06-12-2018, 08:11 PM
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Hi Marc,

I have attached the measurements taken from the MLP. I also copied the picture from my previous post that jamiebosco mentioned. I sit centered behind that half wall on the L shaped couch. I live in Albany NY (about 2.5hrs north of the NYC).

Thanks,

Tony
A few points of clarification. What is the A/V processor you are using? Dirac or Audyssey (I see references to both)? Your Dirac corrected FR from post #47 showed a tight ±3dB from 10-80Hz.

The waterfall above shows a much wider variance as well as a 10dB rolloff from 60-80Hz not apparent in the Dirac corrected response (are you using a custom target curve?). Are there kids around the house that may touch knobs? Something seems to have changed, or was smoothing applied originally?

I believe you need to tweak placement a bit to optimize performance. I see two doors to the deck along the window side. Would you be willing to block access to either door with a S7201? Or place a S7201 alongside the windows?
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post #70 of 84 Old 06-14-2018, 01:43 PM
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Seaton submissive and velodyne DD18 plus.these have not been talked about.

Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts(2) & Rears (2)
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post #71 of 84 Old 06-14-2018, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sittingmongoose View Post
My friend is a paradigm rep, having heard pretty much everything paradigm has to offer for the past several years I would say to strongly not get the paradigm for that kinda dough. Svs, monolith, rythmik, and hsu all make much better subs. I would certainly take a monolith 15 over the sub 2. I’m glad to hear the deal fell through for you because you would have wasted a lot of money.
What did your friend say about the sub25 and the sub2.

Curious to hear. My audio hook up high o get audio at dealer price said these subs are amazing just over priced.

Performance they are amazing, I also have met paradigm reps which say that it's only over priced but performance you won't be disappointed.

If I can get another sub25 I will. Unless I see something like svs sb16 out doing the sub25. A lot of the other subs mentioned are very intriguing

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post #72 of 84 Old 06-14-2018, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
Seaton submissive and velodyne DD18 plus.these have not been talked about.
Rythmik F18>DD18+
Plus, the DD18+ is ridiculously over priced. It would be a decent competitor to the F18 if similarly priced. Also, from monitoring the Velodyne thread, their customer service is spotty at best these days. The owner has lost interest in subwoofers and is focusing on LIDAR for self driving cars.
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post #73 of 84 Old 06-15-2018, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
A few points of clarification. What is the A/V processor you are using? Dirac or Audyssey (I see references to both)? Your Dirac corrected FR from post #47 showed a tight ±3dB from 10-80Hz.

The waterfall above shows a much wider variance as well as a 10dB rolloff from 60-80Hz not apparent in the Dirac corrected response (are you using a custom target curve?). Are there kids around the house that may touch knobs? Something seems to have changed, or was smoothing applied originally?

I believe you need to tweak placement a bit to optimize performance. I see two doors to the deck along the window side. Would you be willing to block access to either door with a S7201? Or place a S7201 alongside the windows?
Good catch-I made the switch from 2.2 to 9.4.2 Atmos which pulled me out of Dirac and into Audyssey world. I am running the X8500H now, for what its worth I like the way the sub sounds now better than the Dirac calibration. The 10dB roll-off is from the crossover, I have a +10dB boost on both subs so it looks exaggerated. I could fix that but then voices begin to start sounding unnatural because they are routed through the sub (and boosted).

I completed the subcrawl when I got them, their current positions afforded the best response/performance. I tried putting one blocking the door right next to the MLP as suggested figuring it would give awesome tactile response- it ended up measuring ok but when I tested it out with content the bass sounded very hollow to me, almost as if I stuck my head inside the 7201 cavities.

I wish there was a way to only re-calibrate the subwoofers without doing all other speakers in Audyssey. I would try to tune it in more but it such an ordeal sitting through 13 other speakers before you get to the subs.

I am going to watch Justice League tonight, I will see how that track sounds.

Thanks,

Tony

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post #74 of 84 Old 06-15-2018, 12:39 PM
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Good catch-I made the switch from 2.2 to 9.4.2 Atmos which pulled me out of Dirac and into Audyssey world. I am running the X8500H now, for what its worth I like the way the sub sounds now better than the Dirac calibration. The 10dB roll-off is from the crossover, I have a +10dB boost on both subs so it looks exaggerated. I could fix that but then voices begin to start sounding unnatural because they are routed through the sub (and boosted).

I completed the subcrawl when I got them, their current positions afforded the best response/performance. I tried putting one blocking the door right next to the MLP as suggested figuring it would give awesome tactile response- it ended up measuring ok but when I tested it out with content the bass sounded very hollow to me, almost as if I stuck my head inside the 7201 cavities.

I wish there was a way to only re-calibrate the subwoofers without doing all other speakers in Audyssey. I would try to tune it in more but it such an ordeal sitting through 13 other speakers before you get to the subs.

I am going to watch Justice League tonight, I will see how that track sounds.

Thanks,

Tony
I'm thinking you should simply rotate the front S7201 90° to fire towards the right corner (to mitigate SBIR). It appears you could do it without blocking the door. Is it possible?
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post #75 of 84 Old 06-19-2018, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking you should simply rotate the front S7201 90° to fire towards the right corner (to mitigate SBIR). It appears you could do it without blocking the door. Is it possible?
Ah, not possible. The photo looks deceiving, as is there is about a 1/4" between the sub and the molding around that door.
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post #76 of 84 Old 06-19-2018, 02:27 PM
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Ah, not possible. The photo looks deceiving, as is there is about a 1/4" between the sub and the molding around that door.
Too bad. I might just block the door personally (if there was other access).

You can rotate the S7201 180 degrees to fire towards the front wall. You should only need 4-5" of space between the sub and the wall. I think you will be surprised at the difference this can make. Rotating the 2nd S7201 could make a difference as well.

Would you be able to record sweeps with REW of each sub at 0 and 180, sans Audyssey? I believe that if we choose the optimal combo prior to running Audyssey you will be much happier with the results.

I know this all seems like a pain, but the sub placement specific to the room is actually much more important than the brand of subs you purchased (in the same class of course).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post
Seaton submissive and velodyne DD18 plus.these have not been talked about.
Rythmik F18>DD18+
Plus, the DD18+ is ridiculously over priced. It would be a decent competitor to the F18 if similarly priced. Also, from monitoring the Velodyne thread, their customer service is spotty at best these days. The owner has lost interest in subwoofers and is focusing on LIDAR for self driving cars.
Yep, couldn't agree more. I don't know why anyone would seriously consider Velodyne subs these days. Way better options for way less money out there.

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post #78 of 84 Old 06-19-2018, 08:53 PM
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This is what the JTR Captivator 4000ULF does in my room:


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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post #79 of 84 Old 06-20-2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
Hi Marc,

I think it is a combination of the volume of my room and the unknown measurements of my past subs. I only started dabbling in calibration/REW with the 7201s. My latest measurements are on my home PC, but they have improved since the last time I posted- I am now flat to ~6Hz and run them +10dB hot from what Audyssey tells me I should. Perhaps my other subs/rooms had a crazy house curve that I have become accustomed to and now I find flat dull.
Unfortunately the only subs I have had in the main listening area of my new house are the Sub 2 (which was defective) and the 7201s, so I can't really compare apples to apples with my past experiences.

Regards,

Tony
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
Hi Mike,

Unfortunately that is accurate, I'm averaging about 1.3 movies/month. Don't get me wrong I would love to watch more frequently but work tends to get in the way and am either too tired or tied up with other responsibilities during my 'free time'.

I have watched the following movies since receiving my 7201s back in January:
<...>
Of those Tron + John Wick were the only ones to put a smile on my face.

To your point of sealed vs ported. My favorite subwoofer of all time was the Epik Legend- a dual opposed sealed. I was in a dorm room in college that was ~ 8 x 12 but its response that I experienced in that small room is what I have been chasing ever since.

I'm beginning to think that my room may be the culprit. The 7201s measure excellently- I was able to achieve an even better calibration which is flat down to about 6Hz which scalled uncompressed up to ~113dB (did not try pushing them harder), however, the sheer amount of volume there is to fill with the open layout and a mix of 14ft and 9ft ceilings may just be too much for the experience I am after. I would love to do an A/B comparison with a vented super-sub in my room. *Cough* Tom *Cough* please send me 2x V7201 for evaluation

I don't want anyone to misconstrue this as being negative toward the 7201. PSA/Tom offer great products (including the 7201) and support. I was just trying to provide honest feedback to whasaaaab based on my experience in my listening environment. I also need to watch more movies prior to issuing my final review.

Cheers,

Tony
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
Hi Marc,

I have attached the measurements taken from the MLP. I also copied the picture from my previous post that jamiebosco mentioned. I sit centered behind that half wall on the L shaped couch. I live in Albany NY (about 2.5hrs north of the NYC).

Thanks,

Tony
Hi Tony,

Thanks for posting the pictures and measurements so others can possibly learn a bit from your adventure in how important subwoofer location and the room is to the end result. This measurements really highlights just how important it is to measure or try different subwoofer locations. It's no wonder a single sub in the "Sub2" location up front would be disappointing to someone who previously had big, explosive power in a small room:



Considering the front sub location/size is affecting your left speaker, had you tried any locations on the right side/rear of the room, possibly with the sub set on side (long/wide)? This is one of those cases where the size of such beasts really start limiting placement choices and sometimes the realized performance.

Off the cuff, I would suggest getting a bit more aggressive with Dirac's target curve for the subwoofer, along with a little rise to the bottom of the main speakers, and finally do some testing to make sure the subs and speakers are working together in the crossover range.
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post #80 of 84 Old 06-21-2018, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Hi Tony,

Thanks for posting the pictures and measurements so others can possibly learn a bit from your adventure in how important subwoofer location and the room is to the end result. This measurements really highlights just how important it is to measure or try different subwoofer locations. It's no wonder a single sub in the "Sub2" location up front would be disappointing to someone who previously had big, explosive power in a small room:



Considering the front sub location/size is affecting your left speaker, had you tried any locations on the right side/rear of the room, possibly with the sub set on side (long/wide)? This is one of those cases where the size of such beasts really start limiting placement choices and sometimes the realized performance.

Off the cuff, I would suggest getting a bit more aggressive with Dirac's target curve for the subwoofer, along with a little rise to the bottom of the main speakers, and finally do some testing to make sure the subs and speakers are working together in the crossover range.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for engaging in the discussion! I have to apologize for the confusion, I mislabeled the picture originally referenced. Sub 1 is the one closest to the TV/Front Speakers. Also to clarify, I no longer have Dirac since moving to the X8500H and an Atmos set-up. I have attached Audyssey measurements for the combined calibration as I run now for convenience (I had previously posted), I haven't saved the individual measurements of both subs in REW but as I remember they were very similar to the Dirac ones posted.

I took a new set of pictures that show the various angles of my room again for those following along as well as identifying positions that I tried in my initial sub crawl for the second subwoofer location when I received them both: I have tried in the corner with the big circular chair (drivers facing the wall, drivers facing the couch, drivers facing the door next to the front subwoofer), the back dining area wall (drivers facing corner and kitchen) and where I currently have it (drivers facing kitchen and drivers facing foyer). As I recall the dinning area location measured the best combined response but it wasn't much better than where I currently have it located and its current position is more visually pleasing to the layout (that's why it won).

If I am ambitious this weekend I will take some measurements of each sub with the Audyssey calibration and maybe play with the target curve a bit in the app. I also haven't tried the drivers facing the wall for the Sub 1 position as Marc suggested. It is just a royal pain in the ass to do with the Atmos set-up and sitting through the calibration of each surround speaker.

I appreciate your interest,

Tony
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post #81 of 84 Old 06-21-2018, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Too bad. I might just block the door personally (if there was other access).

You can rotate the S7201 180 degrees to fire towards the front wall. You should only need 4-5" of space between the sub and the wall. I think you will be surprised at the difference this can make. Rotating the 2nd S7201 could make a difference as well.

Would you be able to record sweeps with REW of each sub at 0 and 180, sans Audyssey? I believe that if we choose the optimal combo prior to running Audyssey you will be much happier with the results.

I know this all seems like a pain, but the sub placement specific to the room is actually much more important than the brand of subs you purchased (in the same class of course).
Hi Marc,

Great idea! If not this weekend, I will do it next.

Cheers,

Tony
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post #82 of 84 Old 10-14-2018, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
Hi Marc,

Great idea! If not this weekend, I will do it next.

Cheers,

Tony
I hope it's not a problem to bring this thread back but i'm curious is there any new update to your placement issues?

Thanks,
Femi

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post #83 of 84 Old 10-14-2018, 08:42 AM
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This was an excellent read, I learned a thing or two. I am also curious as to how the placement situation turned out and if your movie watching experience is more pleasurable now.
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post #84 of 84 Old 10-14-2018, 01:43 PM
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It is just a royal pain in the ass to do with the Atmos set-up and sitting through the calibration of each surround speaker.

Tony
For the sake of getting the subs positioned and calibrated, you can save a lot of time by just doing a setup with just front left and right speakers and subs. And just the 3 minimum measurements.

When you are satisfied, you do the full setup.
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