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Paradigm SUB 2 vs 2x SVS PB 16 Ultra vs ?

45K views 209 replies 54 participants last post by  HDVidGuy 
#1 ·
Hi All,

I am running a pair of Canton Reference DC 1 speakers (https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1106canton/index.html). I was hoping that I could get away without a subwoofer, but their low frequency response isn't as impactful as I had hoped. I live in in an open layout ranch with high ceilings (9ft) everywhere and cathedral (14ft) ceilings in some areas, please reference my attached diagram. Unfortunately, placement of the sub is fixed where documented and the enclosure cannot exceed 30"L X 27"W. If running multiple subs they would be stacked on-top of one another.

My budget is ~$8500. Usage will be evenly split among games, movies and music.

I like the Paradigm SUB 2 because of the integrated room correction system (PBK), 7Hz extension and ridiculous in-house 4500W RMS (9000W Peak) amplifier. I don't know if this is justified or not but I feel like the 10" drivers will offer greater control and more articulate bass than a larger driver.

The last sub I owned was a SVS PB 13 Ultra (I sold it prior to moving last January). It served me well which makes me intrigued by the PB 16 Ultra, specifically if I stacked two of them on top of each other. The down side is that there is no auto-room correction built into SVS's offerings. This would be left up to Dirac on my ARCAM receiver.

Does anyone have any input between 1 SUB 2 vs 2 PB 16 Ultra? Are there any other subs I should be considering that fit my dimensional requirements?

I appreciate your input,

Tony
 

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#2 ·
I would pass on the Paradigm Sub 2 because the specs are overly exaggerated and you can get way more for your money sticking w/ one of the ID companies for subs. I would definitely stick w/ ported in that size room. Instead of stacking 2 subs you can look at the following:

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/v3601
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV25HP.html
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-4000ulf.html (dimensions are a bit off from what you need, but they also make a slimmer version that is wider)

Any of those options will keep you well under your forecasted budget. From a pure output and tactical response i would put in this order: JTR, Rythmik, then PSA. All of these option will easily surpass the SVS pb16.
 
#3 ·
Todeseng31 said:
... I live in in an open layout ranch with high ceilings (9ft) everywhere and cathedral (14ft) ceilings in some areas ... placement of the sub is fixed where documented and the enclosure cannot exceed 30"L X 27"W. If running multiple subs they would be stacked on-top of one another.

My budget is ~$8500. Usage will be evenly split among games, movies and music.

I like the Paradigm SUB 2 because of the integrated room correction system (PBK), 7Hz extension and ridiculous in-house 4500W RMS (9000W Peak) amplifier. ...

The last sub I owned was a SVS PB 13 Ultra (I sold it prior to moving last January). It served me well which makes me intrigued by the PB 16 Ultra, specifically if I stacked two of them on top of each other. ...

Are there any other subs I should be considering that fit my dimensional requirements? ...
The SUB 2 would be a pretty cool single-sub solution. :cool: IMO a single JTR Captivator 2400ULF is also worth considering...or two of them, if their stacked height doesn't scare you. ;)
 
#4 ·
I like the Paradigm SUB 2 because of the integrated room correction system (PBK), 7Hz extension and ridiculous in-house 4500W RMS (9000W Peak) amplifier. I don't know if this is justified or not but I feel like the 10" drivers will offer greater control and more articulate bass than a larger driver.

Tony
I don't believe anything I read about the Paradigm sub, the claims are too good to be true. You cannot physically get 7hz extension with 10" drivers in that small enclosure. Ain't gunna happen. If I were you, I would save a lot of money, buy one of these, and call it a day.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/V3601

Should outperform a single PB16 easily and then it won't look goofy having two stacked. Also the 16 is already too big for you size constraints. There's no replacement for cone area. There is no truth at all in 10" drivers being more 'articulate'. I've heard 21" subs that will articulate the crap out of anything.
 
#5 ·
I appreciate the responses, I haven't heard of Power Sound Audio. I will look into them.

I don't believe anything I read about the Paradigm sub, the claims are too good to be true.
Data-bass measured the SUB2 and it had a basic response of +/-2dB down to 12Hz without room gain. Pretty impressive for a 10" driver array in a sealed enclosure, it is not all marketing BS. The Captivator 4000 ULF is +/-5 dB at that point and the S2 +/- 10dB. The SUB 2 won't compete with the SPL of the JTR speakers, but it doesn't have to; I will never be listening at 110dB. I would prefer to continue enjoying my subwoofer/speakers :)

Also the 16 is already too big for you size constraints.
How so? From SVS website: Cabinet Dimensions: 25" (H) x 21.7" (W) x 28.3" (D) (without grille)


What about room correction? That has to add value to the SUB 2, or is receiver EQ just as good?
 
#7 · (Edited)
Seems Paradigm did commendable job actually accurately rating. But other's point of getting better value out of ID subs still stands.

For your description seems the Captivator S2 fits the bill perfectly:
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-s2.html

Meets your size constraints, has better output, and is sealed if you subscribe to the sealed are more articulate concept.

For the price you could even get 2 under budget, but then going to have to make sure your house electrical can handle it. (and the foundation lol)

If don't want a big black box, contact JTR. They probably have custom finishes they can do.

Edit: Just want to add that while the subs may be +/- 3 db over a similar range, they aren't producing the same SPL over that range. With such an open floor plan you need the headroom honestly.
 
#8 ·
I decided to go with the Paradigm. ID may provide better performance per dollar, but in my research there is no product in my price range that can compete in the 10-13Hz regime (+/- 3db) and I don't want to compromise.

Reading Josh Ricci's (Audioholic Editor/Reviewer) forum comment after his review sold me:

"It is flat to 13Hz anechoic which is ridiculously deep for a sealed system or any other for that matter. Normally when you place a subwoofer in room the low bass receives a healthy amount of boosting from the room boundaries which can help extend the bass response. In the case of the Sub2 with its extension essentially to almost 10Hz outdoors, I suspect that what happens with the Sub 2 in room is that the low bass below 30Hz gets heavily exaggerated so that when you run PBK, Audyssey or a similar EQ system the low end actually needs CUT back to restore a flat response. This in turn should lower the stress on the subwoofer at very low frequencies and in effect give it some extra headroom. Certainly it had no problems quaking my room."


Having to cut back ULF response of a sub to achieve flat EQ is ludicrous.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Another vote for the DSS 24". I agree, that thing would completely stomp a mudhole in the Sub2.
https://www.deepseasound.com/products/mariana-24sc-24-subwoofer


I think when you say that a 10" is more articulate and has more control than a bigger driver, you can't be further from the truth. We are all out to save your wallet from getting lighter and if you go w/ any of the recommendations above, than you can take that massive savings and put it elsewhere that is needed in your system. In the end, it is your money to spend as you like, but you asked for recommendations and we are giving you some.
 
#15 ·
Enjoy the Sub 2 bud!

Don’t let these guys discourage you. AVS has gone pro internet direct in recent years and people just love to recommend products they themselves own...makes them feel better about their own purchases. Most here have likely never heard or even seen a Sub 2 for that matter. I have and it’s spectacular...especially for its size. Doesn’t hurt that it’s built like a tank and drop dead gorgeous either. Sub tech has been the same for many many years as well. There is only so much you can do with a box made of wood, a driver, and an amp. Not to mention the whole value for your dollar argument is way overblown too, because B&M subs like the Sub 2 can be had for ridiculously discounted prices if you know how to negotiate just a bit.
 
#16 ·
Enjoy the Sub 2 bud!

Don’t let these guys discourage you. AVS has gone pro internet direct in recent years and people just love to recommend products they themselves own...makes them feel better about their own purchases. Most here have likely never heard or even seen a Sub 2 for that matter. I have and it’s spectacular...especially for its size. Doesn’t hurt that it’s built like a tank and drop dead gorgeous either. Sub tech has been the same for many many years as well. There is only so much you can do with a box made of wood, a driver, and an amp. Not to mention the whole value for your dollar argument is way overblown too, because B&M subs like the Sub 2 can be had for ridiculously discounted prices if you know how to negotiate just a bit.
Looks like you are the one pushing your brand sub from your post above. I recommend a few brands, most of which i do not own, and tried to set the record straight on why the misnomer of a 10" sub is no more musical than a 18". Most new guys that come here have never heard of an ID sub company, that you get most bang for your buck and we are just giving the OP all the tools to use at his disposal. If he wants to go buy a Sub2, than by all means do, but he came asking for different recommendations and believe he has gotten enough information to either go w/ what he knows or choose another route.

Technology over the years does in fact make a HUGE difference, so for you to say a sub is a box of wood and driver and you can't innovate any more than that, is flat out wrong and misinformed. :rolleyes:
 
#21 ·
If you are worried about articulateness, I would look closely at the JTR S2, or a pair of Rythmik F18. Rythmik has a very good reputation for being good with music, whether it really is better or not, I don't know, but I do know that Jim Wilson, who has reviewed both the JTR S1 and the FV18 thought they were both awesome for music.
I'm not sure why you the think the Paradigm would beat either the JTR S2 or 4000ULF, the Databass chart says otherwise. Also, a stack of 2 F18 would beat the Paradigm. Personally, I would go with the S2, or 2 F18(when I can afford to upgrade, 2 F18's is the way I plan to go, full disclosure) or even a DSS 24 as someone else mentioned. The F18 is the sealed version of the FV18.
Also, while I personally would probably go for the Rythmiks, JTR will at a charge, put on custom finishes, you can make them into quite handsome, if imposing boxes.
Really, if musicality and articulateness are what you are most worried about, you owe yourself a visit to Rythmik's website.
 
#28 ·
Many great recommendations and very neutral IMHO. OP you are getting some really great advice here. This is a big purchase so taking your time and doing some more homework will always pay off in the end. Good luck. You have heard from some of the Subwoofer "Greybeards" on AVS. Mike's advice is always spot on, well thought out and incredibly unbiased.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
 
#29 ·
Thank you very much, Adam! That was an extremely nice compliment. I think, as you noted, that threads like these involve a collective effort. :)
 
#31 ·
Performance comparisons aside for a second...

Those JTR subs mentioned above are huge! Great for a large dedicated theater room, but not so great for a common living area. I love the Funk Audio subs though! That’s the route I’d go if I could afford them.....or maybe Seaton’s F18 stacks. Loved Mark’s products since owning a Submersive HP some years back.

The Sub 2 is still very impressive to me given its size. It’s in the same ballpark pricing wise with the Funk Audio subs after you factor in discounted prices.
 
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#32 ·
There's no doubt if he ends up with the Paradigm he will have an excellent subwoofer. If it's what he really wants, he should get it.
 
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#33 ·
Hey all,

Figured I would post an update to the thread if anyone wanted to follow me on my journey. I purchased the Sub 2 and ended up calibrating it on 12/2. To my dismay the full-gain calibrated output using the built in PBK was ~60dB. To get decent output with content I had to use BOTH of the sub outs on my AVR and feed them into the sub at +10dB each. Obviously something is awry here with the sub amplifier and my authorized Paradigm dealer agreed.

Every week since I have been promised a replacement sub would be on its way, "tracking information just a few days out". Today (+21 days) I told them that I am done, I want a full refund and I am never doing business with Paradigm again. The dealer made one last pitch "Are you sure that you want to buy an inferior product out of the box and it will not have PBK room correction? I can still get a replacement sub to you before the end of the week." before conceding and agreeing to the refund.

And so it continues!

I am throwing out my dimensional requirements length wise, so what if it protrudes a bit in front of my mains? haha. The width restriction (27") is still very important as I have a door right next to the sub that requires access.

The next subs on my short list are the PSA S7201 and the JTR CAP ULF 4000. The PSA S7201 has a 60 day in-home trial where I just have to pay return shipping. Does anyone have any thoughts on comparing these two?

Thanks,

Tony
 

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#36 ·
for what it's worth my father has a pair of paradigm s8's in his setup, and he fell in love with the rythmik fv15hp's i had. he has told me that they're the only ported sub he has ever heard that sounds sealed (he runs 8 sealed diy 15 & 18" subs in his setup). he was actually upset when i sold my 15's because i was considering other sub manufacturers. my dedicated room is not exactly large, but it's not tiny either (~1700 cubic sq ft). i considered psa, jtr & rythmik (all of their highest offerings). at the end of the day i stayed with rythmik and couldn't be happier. i also got a great deal on the pair of fv25's which made the decision that much easier.
 
#39 ·
Todeseng3l

Did you give Jeff a call? With a sizable purchase like that I would talk to both companies and gather all the info before making a decision.
 
#41 ·
I've spoken with Jeff in the past (and also Dave from DSS), but not with regard to this purchase. I thought the configuration of the 7201 was unique and all else equal who wouldn't want to brag about having EIGHT 18" subs in their HT!? :) I have nothing to lose except return shipping with the 60 day trial which seems like a fair deal to me and speaks volumes to the confidence of PSA in their products.
 
#51 ·
I know this is late but I have a Sub 2 which I got for ~40% off back in 2011 or 2012. I can't remember. I have no issues with it. My room is oopen but I can't say my dimensions are the same as your. I am using a single 110v outlet and it hammers for the modest volume I listen. I would buy a second one if I could get the same discount and if I didn't now have kids. I would also like to play with other brands but with the kids I'm screwed.

My one issue with Paradigm was when I purchased 2 new Sig ADP3s and one of the mids had a problem. My dealer ordered a new one right away but Paradigm wanted to repair it. My dealer went to bat with them stating that new speaker shouldn't need to be repaired and I got my new one and haven't had a problem since. Now, to be honest I don't get to use my system anymore. Sad sad me!
 
#53 ·
I had mine running on 110v for about six months. I had 220v piped in. Whole new ball game! It’s much more powerful and slams much harder. I have mine in a large open room in my house. 16x20 and 18’ ceiling. Room is open to large kitchen and into main hallway, dining room then living room. In total about 2100 square feet of space. I cannot comment on having two subs, but can say there is no lacking of low end slam and extension.
 
#57 ·
I own sub25 and it is a beast on the 120v. I did get a chance to hear a dual room setup with 2 sub 25. My pants legs were flapping in the wind with the amount of pressure they delivered in a seal room.

I also heard the Sub 2 on a 240v line and the pressure is created was amazing. Both subs on the higher volt line takes them to a different level.

None of the shoot outs if I remember correctly did not have the sub2 plugged in a 220v line to get the best out of it.

My deal fell through and I cannot get a second Sub25. There were many subs mentioned in this thread. Do they provide that room pressure that make your pant legs flap? I would have 2 get 2 subs as I also have a large space.

They do improve on their products. The Sub 2 has gotten better. I was told they have made fine adjustment over the years to make it better and that's why it costs more now then it did before.

I don't want to hear the sub I want to feel it.
 
#59 · (Edited)
You will definitely feel the PSA 7201, in my case 2x 7201. I had some friends over last weekend and watched Mad Max for the first time with the 7201s. A half empty wine glass was dancing around the coffee table, a decorative candle tray found its way off a bookshelf (the girlfriend wasn't too happy) and a ceramic jar met its demise when it decided to jump off the pantry shelf. I have a very large open layout to fill (it is described in earlier posts on this thread), the tactile sensation produced by the 7201 is admirable given the area. I couldn't imagine the response in an enclosed dedicated room- well, yes I can: it would be scary.

I still haven't watched enough content to deliver my final review on the dual PSA 7201 yet. Although I am happy with them, it still has me wondering how the other brand's big players would sound in my room. The best way to describe my experience with the PSA 7201s is with a food analogy. Growing up in Buffalo NY I know good chicken wings (what most parts of the country call 'Buffalo Wings'). Duff's are my favorite, every time I am in town I stop at Duff's. Many chicken wing joints have opened since I left the area but I will never give them a chance. Why? Because I know there cannot be a better wing than Duff's and I would not want to miss out on an opportunity to have Duff's by trying another bar's attempt at making a good wing. I do not have the same sentiment with regard to the 7201, I am left wondering if there is a better experience out there for my listening environment.

The thing I am struggling with is what is ultimately limiting the movie experience- is it the way the content is mixed or the way the 7201 reproduces it. For example Mad Max offered thunderous, deep and tight bass with regard to the truck noises and orchestral drums, however, the gun shots/explosions paled in comparison. So much so that my friends pointed it out after the movie was over. They were still impressed by the performance, but were quite perplexed at the discrepancy in sound effects.

In the films I have watched I am constantly evaluating. There have been bright spots- but also moments where I am thinking "well, that should have been louder/deeper". Has the PSA 7201 turned me into a content snob or is it not meeting my expectation because of design+integration limitations? I am honestly not sure. Prior to delivering my final review I want to watch a wide variety content to better unpack this question- I am currently viewing ~1 movie/month.

I am curious how dual JTR Captivator 4000ULFs would sound in my room compared to the dual PSA 7201. If anyone wants to bring some over I would be more than happy to host a shootout at my home in Albany NY :)
 
#58 ·
@can you watch pearl Harbor. You should be able to feel the gun shots. The subs mentioned and the one you purchased I am very curious. I felt the shots with the sub2 and the sub25;
 
#61 ·
My friend is a paradigm rep, having heard pretty much everything paradigm has to offer for the past several years I would say to strongly not get the paradigm for that kinda dough. Svs, monolith, rythmik, and hsu all make much better subs. I would certainly take a monolith 15 over the sub 2. I’m glad to hear the deal fell through for you because you would have wasted a lot of money.
 
#71 ·
What did your friend say about the sub25 and the sub2.

Curious to hear. My audio hook up high o get audio at dealer price said these subs are amazing just over priced.

Performance they are amazing, I also have met paradigm reps which say that it's only over priced but performance you won't be disappointed.

If I can get another sub25 I will. Unless I see something like svs sb16 out doing the sub25. A lot of the other subs mentioned are very intriguing
 
#70 ·
Seaton submissive and velodyne DD18 plus.these have not been talked about.
 
#72 ·
Rythmik F18>DD18+
Plus, the DD18+ is ridiculously over priced. It would be a decent competitor to the F18 if similarly priced. Also, from monitoring the Velodyne thread, their customer service is spotty at best these days. The owner has lost interest in subwoofers and is focusing on LIDAR for self driving cars.
 
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