Paradigm SUB 2 vs 2x SVS PB 16 Ultra vs ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 136Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Todeseng3l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Paradigm SUB 2 vs 2x SVS PB 16 Ultra vs ?

Hi All,

I am running a pair of Canton Reference DC 1 speakers (https://www.stereophile.com/floorlou...ton/index.html). I was hoping that I could get away without a subwoofer, but their low frequency response isn't as impactful as I had hoped. I live in in an open layout ranch with high ceilings (9ft) everywhere and cathedral (14ft) ceilings in some areas, please reference my attached diagram. Unfortunately, placement of the sub is fixed where documented and the enclosure cannot exceed 30"L X 27"W. If running multiple subs they would be stacked on-top of one another.

My budget is ~$8500. Usage will be evenly split among games, movies and music.

I like the Paradigm SUB 2 because of the integrated room correction system (PBK), 7Hz extension and ridiculous in-house 4500W RMS (9000W Peak) amplifier. I don't know if this is justified or not but I feel like the 10" drivers will offer greater control and more articulate bass than a larger driver.

The last sub I owned was a SVS PB 13 Ultra (I sold it prior to moving last January). It served me well which makes me intrigued by the PB 16 Ultra, specifically if I stacked two of them on top of each other. The down side is that there is no auto-room correction built into SVS's offerings. This would be left up to Dirac on my ARCAM receiver.

Does anyone have any input between 1 SUB 2 vs 2 PB 16 Ultra? Are there any other subs I should be considering that fit my dimensional requirements?

I appreciate your input,

Tony
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	LR.JPG
Views:	222
Size:	80.5 KB
ID:	2319608  
Todeseng3l is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 09:43 AM
 
LFE Junkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 563 Post(s)
Liked: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
Hi All,

I am running a pair of Canton Reference DC 1 speakers (https://www.stereophile.com/floorlou...ton/index.html). I was hoping that I could get away without a subwoofer, but their low frequency response isn't as impactful as I had hoped. I live in in an open layout ranch with high ceilings (9ft) everywhere and cathedral (14ft) ceilings in some areas, please reference my attached diagram. Unfortunately, placement of the sub is fixed where documented and the enclosure cannot exceed 30"L X 27"W. If running multiple subs they would be stacked on-top of one another.

My budget is ~$8500. Usage will be evenly split among games, movies and music.

I like the Paradigm SUB 2 because of the integrated room correction system (PBK), 7Hz extension and ridiculous in-house 4500W RMS (9000W Peak) amplifier. I don't know if this is justified or not but I feel like the 10" drivers will offer greater control and more articulate bass than a larger driver.

The last sub I owned was a SVS PB 13 Ultra (I sold it prior to moving last January). It served me well which makes me intrigued by the PB 16 Ultra, specifically if I stacked two of them on top of each other. The down side is that there is no auto-room correction built into SVS's offerings. This would be left up to Dirac on my ARCAM receiver.

Does anyone have any input between 1 SUB 2 vs 2 PB 16 Ultra? Are there any other subs I should be considering that fit my dimensional requirements?

I appreciate your input,

Tony
I would pass on the Paradigm Sub 2 because the specs are overly exaggerated and you can get way more for your money sticking w/ one of the ID companies for subs. I would definitely stick w/ ported in that size room. Instead of stacking 2 subs you can look at the following:

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/v3601
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV25HP.html
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-4000ulf.html (dimensions are a bit off from what you need, but they also make a slimmer version that is wider)

Any of those options will keep you well under your forecasted budget. From a pure output and tactical response i would put in this order: JTR, Rythmik, then PSA. All of these option will easily surpass the SVS pb16.
LFE Junkie is offline  
post #3 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 09:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eljaycanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 9,790
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1865 Post(s)
Liked: 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng31
... I live in in an open layout ranch with high ceilings (9ft) everywhere and cathedral (14ft) ceilings in some areas ... placement of the sub is fixed where documented and the enclosure cannot exceed 30"L X 27"W. If running multiple subs they would be stacked on-top of one another.

My budget is ~$8500. Usage will be evenly split among games, movies and music.

I like the Paradigm SUB 2 because of the integrated room correction system (PBK), 7Hz extension and ridiculous in-house 4500W RMS (9000W Peak) amplifier. ...

The last sub I owned was a SVS PB 13 Ultra (I sold it prior to moving last January). It served me well which makes me intrigued by the PB 16 Ultra, specifically if I stacked two of them on top of each other. ...

Are there any other subs I should be considering that fit my dimensional requirements? ...
The SUB 2 would be a pretty cool single-sub solution. IMO a single JTR Captivator 2400ULF is also worth considering...or two of them, if their stacked height doesn't scare you.
eljaycanuck is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 09:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
Raylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 443 Post(s)
Liked: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post

I like the Paradigm SUB 2 because of the integrated room correction system (PBK), 7Hz extension and ridiculous in-house 4500W RMS (9000W Peak) amplifier. I don't know if this is justified or not but I feel like the 10" drivers will offer greater control and more articulate bass than a larger driver.

Tony
I don't believe anything I read about the Paradigm sub, the claims are too good to be true. You cannot physically get 7hz extension with 10" drivers in that small enclosure. Ain't gunna happen. If I were you, I would save a lot of money, buy one of these, and call it a day.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/V3601

Should outperform a single PB16 easily and then it won't look goofy having two stacked. Also the 16 is already too big for you size constraints. There's no replacement for cone area. There is no truth at all in 10" drivers being more 'articulate'. I've heard 21" subs that will articulate the crap out of anything.
Todeseng3l likes this.
Raylon is online now  
post #5 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Todeseng3l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked: 432
I appreciate the responses, I haven't heard of Power Sound Audio. I will look into them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylon View Post
I don't believe anything I read about the Paradigm sub, the claims are too good to be true.
Data-bass measured the SUB2 and it had a basic response of +/-2dB down to 12Hz without room gain. Pretty impressive for a 10" driver array in a sealed enclosure, it is not all marketing BS. The Captivator 4000 ULF is +/-5 dB at that point and the S2 +/- 10dB. The SUB 2 won't compete with the SPL of the JTR speakers, but it doesn't have to; I will never be listening at 110dB. I would prefer to continue enjoying my subwoofer/speakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylon View Post
Also the 16 is already too big for you size constraints.
How so? From SVS website: Cabinet Dimensions: 25" (H) x 21.7" (W) x 28.3" (D) (without grille)


What about room correction? That has to add value to the SUB 2, or is receiver EQ just as good?
Todeseng3l is online now  
post #6 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 10:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
Raylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 782
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 443 Post(s)
Liked: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I appreciate the responses, I haven't heard of Power Sound Audio. I will look into them.

How so? From SVS website: Cabinet Dimensions: 25" (H) x 21.7" (W) x 28.3" (D) (without grille)


What about room correction? That has to add value to the SUB 2, or is receiver EQ just as good?
PSA is great company. They make great stuff for decent prices. I didn't see those without grille specs at first, so it would fit your dimensions without a grill. I don't mess with any room correction so I can't really comment on it. Audyssey and REW do well enough for me to measure out anything I need to know. It's hard for me to fathom dropping $8500 subs when I spent about $1000 for my 4 18" subs!
Todeseng3l likes this.

Last edited by Raylon; 11-22-2017 at 10:59 AM.
Raylon is online now  
post #7 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 10:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Seems Paradigm did commendable job actually accurately rating. But other's point of getting better value out of ID subs still stands.

For your description seems the Captivator S2 fits the bill perfectly:
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-s2.html

Meets your size constraints, has better output, and is sealed if you subscribe to the sealed are more articulate concept.

For the price you could even get 2 under budget, but then going to have to make sure your house electrical can handle it. (and the foundation lol)

If don't want a big black box, contact JTR. They probably have custom finishes they can do.

Edit: Just want to add that while the subs may be +/- 3 db over a similar range, they aren't producing the same SPL over that range. With such an open floor plan you need the headroom honestly.
Todeseng3l likes this.

Last edited by JNayAV; 11-22-2017 at 11:12 AM.
JNayAV is offline  
post #8 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Todeseng3l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by JNayAV View Post
Seems Paradigm did commendable job actually accurately rating. But other's point of getting better value out of ID subs still stands.

For your description seems the Captivator S2 fits the bill perfectly:
http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-s2.html

Meets your size constraints, has better output, and is sealed if you subscribe to the sealed are more articulate concept.

For the price you could even get 2 under budget, but then going to have to make sure your house electrical can handle it. (and the foundation lol)

If don't want a big black box, contact JTR. They probably have custom finishes they can do.

Edit: Just want to add that while the subs may be +/- 3 db over a similar range, they aren't producing the same SPL over that range. With such an open floor plan you need the headroom honestly.
I decided to go with the Paradigm. ID may provide better performance per dollar, but in my research there is no product in my price range that can compete in the 10-13Hz regime (+/- 3db) and I don't want to compromise.

Reading Josh Ricci's (Audioholic Editor/Reviewer) forum comment after his review sold me:

"It is flat to 13Hz anechoic which is ridiculously deep for a sealed system or any other for that matter. Normally when you place a subwoofer in room the low bass receives a healthy amount of boosting from the room boundaries which can help extend the bass response. In the case of the Sub2 with its extension essentially to almost 10Hz outdoors, I suspect that what happens with the Sub 2 in room is that the low bass below 30Hz gets heavily exaggerated so that when you run PBK, Audyssey or a similar EQ system the low end actually needs CUT back to restore a flat response. This in turn should lower the stress on the subwoofer at very low frequencies and in effect give it some extra headroom. Certainly it had no problems quaking my room."


Having to cut back ULF response of a sub to achieve flat EQ is ludicrous.
jamiebosco likes this.
Todeseng3l is online now  
post #9 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 11:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,296
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 833 Post(s)
Liked: 667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post


Having to cut back ULF response of a sub to achieve flat EQ is ludicrous.
Not really, it's called room gain and happens in any small to medium room, with virtually any sub.

Lyngdorf MP-50 | Yamaha MX-A5200 | Ascend Sierra Towers | Ascend Sierra Horizon | Ascend Sierra Lunas | Ascend HTM-200SE | SVS SB-13 x4
duckymomo is offline  
post #10 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 11:31 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I decided to go with the Paradigm. ID may provide better performance per dollar, but in my research there is no product in my price range that can compete in the 10-13Hz regime (+/- 3db) and I don't want to compromise.

Reading Josh Ricci's (Audioholic Editor/Reviewer) forum comment after his review sold me:

"It is flat to 13Hz anechoic which is ridiculously deep for a sealed system or any other for that matter. Normally when you place a subwoofer in room the low bass receives a healthy amount of boosting from the room boundaries which can help extend the bass response. In the case of the Sub2 with its extension essentially to almost 10Hz outdoors, I suspect that what happens with the Sub 2 in room is that the low bass below 30Hz gets heavily exaggerated so that when you run PBK, Audyssey or a similar EQ system the low end actually needs CUT back to restore a flat response. This in turn should lower the stress on the subwoofer at very low frequencies and in effect give it some extra headroom. Certainly it had no problems quaking my room."


Having to cut back ULF response of a sub to achieve flat EQ is ludicrous.
Not sure where your numbers are coming from. But off the Data-Bass you alluded to the JTR S2 was 3 db higher then the Sub2 at 10 hz, so don't know where you get that nothing can compete in the price range..... If look at max sustained that grows to nearly 9 db.....

I'm sure you'll be happy with the sub, as seems it has good output. Everyone here just wanted to get you more output for the cash lol. But to each their own, seems you were already sold on the Paradigm.

Enjoy the sub!
llang269 likes this.
JNayAV is offline  
post #11 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 12:06 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,129
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5373 Post(s)
Liked: 10036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I decided to go with the Paradigm. ID may provide better performance per dollar, but in my research there is no product in my price range that can compete in the 10-13Hz regime (+/- 3db) and I don't want to compromise.

Reading Josh Ricci's (Audioholic Editor/Reviewer) forum comment after his review sold me:

"It is flat to 13Hz anechoic which is ridiculously deep for a sealed system or any other for that matter. Normally when you place a subwoofer in room the low bass receives a healthy amount of boosting from the room boundaries which can help extend the bass response. In the case of the Sub2 with its extension essentially to almost 10Hz outdoors, I suspect that what happens with the Sub 2 in room is that the low bass below 30Hz gets heavily exaggerated so that when you run PBK, Audyssey or a similar EQ system the low end actually needs CUT back to restore a flat response. This in turn should lower the stress on the subwoofer at very low frequencies and in effect give it some extra headroom. Certainly it had no problems quaking my room."

Having to cut back ULF response of a sub to achieve flat EQ is ludicrous.
Hi,

I understand your interest in the Paradigm Signature Sub2 . But, remember that glowing review was written in 2006, and the subwoofer industry has come a long way in the last 10+ years. http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer...gm-sig-sub-2-1

The issue for me is not so much how much a particular subwoofer is down at a particular frequency, but how much undistorted SPL it can generate at a particular frequency. Ported subs and sealed subs will exhibit different roll-off characteristics, so looking at the actual output capabilities is useful.

I have several PB16's and also still have a nearfield PB13, so I should encourage you to buy what I have. That's what we are supposed to do on AVS, isn't it? But, I wouldn't recommend buying two PB16's just so you can stack them. And, I also wouldn't recommend spending that kind of money on a 2006 subwoofer, when the subwoofer technology has improved so much. You can get more clean output for the money, than either of those options, from some other subwoofers.

A lot depends on what you are looking for. If you liked the tactile sensations that you got from your PB13, then a JTR Cap 2400 would give you that in spades. It would be a great deal more powerful than the PB13 you were used to. And, it also has a room size control to help you dial back the ULF if it is too much for your room. That is pretty much a standard of the industry now in large ID subwoofers.

If on the other hand, it is more a matter of good low frequency extension and not quite as much tactile response that you want, a Rythmik FV25HP would be a very good choice. Many people consider the Rythmik subs to be rather musical sounding subs, and their ported versions are intended to sound and feel more like sealed subs. Both the Cap 2400 and the FV25 come in tall versions that should fit your space.

You can compare their specifications by looking at the FV25 on Data-Bass: http://www.data-bass.com/systems

The Cap 2400 review and measurements aren't up on Data-Bass yet. But, you could look at the max output on a comparative table on the first page of this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...er-thread.html

Either of those subs would give you equivalent or better performance, compared to the Paradigm sub, at less than a third of the price. And, if you ever really wanted even more output, you could always stack a second one for less than the cost of a single Sub 2. You never know, you might even find a second location for a sub some day.

As far as bass EQ goes, Dirac will do a very good job of EQing your subwoofer, and can if necessary be even more helpful if you ever find yourself using multiple subs. The internal Paradigm EQ was very useful for its time, but wouldn't be helpful at all if you ever do find yourself adding a second sub.

Regards,
Mike
eljaycanuck, ahblaza, femi and 5 others like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 11-22-2017 at 01:00 PM.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #12 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 01:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Kini62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 7,932
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2681 Post(s)
Liked: 2470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
I decided to go with the Paradigm. ID may provide better performance per dollar, but in my research there is no product in my price range that can compete in the 10-13Hz regime (+/- 3db) and I don't want to compromise.


Having to cut back ULF response of a sub to achieve flat EQ is ludicrous.
A single Rythmik FV25 exceeds the sub 2 at all frequencies including the ones you mentioned. It's $2500 to your door. A pair would just be incredible and you're still $3500 less poor.

Then there's the JTR Captivator 4000 ULF. That would be like stacking 3 of the Sub 2s together. The 4000 ULF is around $4K I think.

If sealed is what your after then the Captivator S2 beats the sub 2 at all frequencies and the Rythmik F25 (not tested yet) would or should be nearly identical. You could buy 5 F25s and 3 S2s for the same price.

As for having to cut back the ULF response to achieve the flat EQ, it's because the DSP is set to heavily boost the low end. If you read the entire article you'll see that the sub would shut off during the 115db low frequency sweeps because of the DSP programming boost. Cutting back on the ULF is only bringing it down to a slightly less boosted state.

In the end, it's your money, but any of the subs I've mentioned will meet or best the sub 2, do it at a fraction of the cost, have better warranties and customer service.

Oh, there's also the Deep Sea Sound 24" sealed subs at about $4500 that would walk all over the sub 2.
mthomas47 likes this.

Klipsch RF-62II, RC-500, RS-400, SVS PC12+,
Def Tech SC8000
Onkyo RZ820
Roku Ultra, Apple TV, Sharp 70" Quattron
Kini62 is offline  
post #13 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 01:55 PM
 
LFE Junkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 563 Post(s)
Liked: 775
Another vote for the DSS 24". I agree, that thing would completely stomp a mudhole in the Sub2.
https://www.deepseasound.com/product...c-24-subwoofer


I think when you say that a 10" is more articulate and has more control than a bigger driver, you can't be further from the truth. We are all out to save your wallet from getting lighter and if you go w/ any of the recommendations above, than you can take that massive savings and put it elsewhere that is needed in your system. In the end, it is your money to spend as you like, but you asked for recommendations and we are giving you some.

Last edited by LFE Junkie; 11-22-2017 at 02:01 PM.
LFE Junkie is offline  
post #14 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 02:08 PM
 
LFE Junkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 563 Post(s)
Liked: 775
Here is a good thread for you to read concerning the misnomer that smaller drivers are more articulate:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...r-drivers.html
Todeseng3l likes this.

Last edited by LFE Junkie; 11-22-2017 at 02:28 PM.
LFE Junkie is offline  
post #15 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 07:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,885
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 587 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Enjoy the Sub 2 bud!

Don’t let these guys discourage you. AVS has gone pro internet direct in recent years and people just love to recommend products they themselves own...makes them feel better about their own purchases. Most here have likely never heard or even seen a Sub 2 for that matter. I have and it’s spectacular...especially for its size. Doesn’t hurt that it’s built like a tank and drop dead gorgeous either. Sub tech has been the same for many many years as well. There is only so much you can do with a box made of wood, a driver, and an amp. Not to mention the whole value for your dollar argument is way overblown too, because B&M subs like the Sub 2 can be had for ridiculously discounted prices if you know how to negotiate just a bit.
RayGuy, llang269 and Todeseng3l like this.

Samsung 82” Q90R * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is online now  
post #16 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 07:23 PM
 
LFE Junkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 563 Post(s)
Liked: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
Enjoy the Sub 2 bud!

Don’t let these guys discourage you. AVS has gone pro internet direct in recent years and people just love to recommend products they themselves own...makes them feel better about their own purchases. Most here have likely never heard or even seen a Sub 2 for that matter. I have and it’s spectacular...especially for its size. Doesn’t hurt that it’s built like a tank and drop dead gorgeous either. Sub tech has been the same for many many years as well. There is only so much you can do with a box made of wood, a driver, and an amp. Not to mention the whole value for your dollar argument is way overblown too, because B&M subs like the Sub 2 can be had for ridiculously discounted prices if you know how to negotiate just a bit.
Looks like you are the one pushing your brand sub from your post above. I recommend a few brands, most of which i do not own, and tried to set the record straight on why the misnomer of a 10" sub is no more musical than a 18". Most new guys that come here have never heard of an ID sub company, that you get most bang for your buck and we are just giving the OP all the tools to use at his disposal. If he wants to go buy a Sub2, than by all means do, but he came asking for different recommendations and believe he has gotten enough information to either go w/ what he knows or choose another route.

Technology over the years does in fact make a HUGE difference, so for you to say a sub is a box of wood and driver and you can't innovate any more than that, is flat out wrong and misinformed.
LFE Junkie is offline  
post #17 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 07:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,885
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 587 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
Looks like you are the one pushing your brand sub from your post above. I recommend a few brands, most of which i do not own, and tried to set the record straight on why the misnomer of a 10" sub is no more musical than a 18". Most new guys that come here have never heard of an ID sub company, that you get most bang for your buck and we are just giving the OP all the tools to use at his disposal. If he wants to go buy a Sub2, than by all means do, but he came asking for different recommendations and believe he has gotten enough information to either go w/ what he knows or choose another route.

Technology over the years does in fact make a HUGE difference, so for you to say a sub is a box of wood and driver and you can't innovate any more than that, is flat out wrong and misinformed.
Explain to me how any of the subs you recommended are more technologically advanced than the sub 2?

Believe it or not some people actually care what a sub looks like too. Bang for your buck should take build quality and aesthetics into account as well imo.

And...just for the record I don’t own a Sub 2.
Todeseng3l likes this.
BRAC is online now  
post #18 of 84 Old 11-22-2017, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Todeseng3l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by JNayAV View Post
Not sure where your numbers are coming from. But off the Data-Bass you alluded to the JTR S2 was 3 db higher then the Sub2 at 10 hz, so don't know where you get that nothing can compete in the price range.....
My numbers are coming from data-bass. I don't care about max burst, I will never push the sub near that limit. I care about basic response.

As I mentioned the Sub 2 is flat (+/- 2dB) all the way down to 12Hz. The JTR 4000 ULF is -5 dB and the JTR S2 is -10dB at that point. Am I reading that chart wrong?

I want to experience my movies and music the way they are intended to be by the producers, which to my knowledge, is not possible with any of the ID offerings suggested here. When you listen to a mix with 12Hz and 20Hz, the 12Hz will be playing 10dB lower than the 20Hz on the S2! The limitations of the S2 effectively EQ the track negatively from the way it was intended to be listened to. To some that want to laugh with their friends when their jowl's are flapping in the wind with the SPL monsters it may not matter, but I am interested in accuracy and am willing to pay the premium to achieve it.

If I am incorrect in my thinking, please enlighten me; I am here to learn.

Happy Thanksgiving! Cheers.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sub 2 vs cap 4000 ULF.JPG
Views:	137
Size:	56.9 KB
ID:	2319864   Click image for larger version

Name:	Sub 2 vs S2.JPG
Views:	119
Size:	56.3 KB
ID:	2319866  

Last edited by Todeseng3l; 11-22-2017 at 10:08 PM.
Todeseng3l is online now  
post #19 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 04:05 AM
 
LFE Junkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 563 Post(s)
Liked: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
M
I want to experience my movies and music the way they are intended to be by the producers, which to my knowledge, is not possible with any of the ID offerings suggested here. When you listen to a mix with 12Hz and 20Hz, the 12Hz will be playing 10dB lower than the 20Hz on the S2! The limitations of the S2 effectively EQ the track negatively from the way it was intended to be listened to. To some that want to laugh with their friends when their jowl's are flapping in the wind with the SPL monsters it may not matter, but I am interested in accuracy and am willing to pay the premium to achieve it.

If I am incorrect in my thinking, please enlighten me; I am here to learn.

Happy Thanksgiving! Cheers.
Since you have an open floor plan and virtually no cabin gain for your subs, you will not get a flat 12-14hz response as the director intended, to use your words. This is why everyone is recommending the biggest sub that will fit in your space. You have cathedral ceilings and your room is open to other areas (open concept) which is terrible for one sub to do its job, much less 2, and get any low end meaningful output. So in a nutshell, you do want to essentially look at sheer output on a sub as well as THD distortion. The more headroom you can develop in a sub, the more cleaner the bass will be. Again, look at PSA, JTR, DeepSeaSound, Seaton, Funk Audio, Rythmik, HSU, etc. This will get you in the right direction, if you are still curious about what all the ID craze is about. It wouldn't hurt to give each a phone call or chat to pick their brain on this situation and who can enlighten you more than the owners of each.

Since you are concerned w/ movies as well as music, I would recommend sticking w/ a ported sub, which mfg. is up to you, but do your due diligence and research all the ID companies that was listed above.

Just as a side note, I have 2x JTR Cap 1400 in a 23 x 15.5 x 9 completely sealed dedicated theater room w/ 360 deg. insulated foam and I am getting usable output down to 12 hz. Keep in mind the sub has a port tune of 17hz and my subs are running very conservative. Room and cabin gain is everything in this game as well as sub efficiency and power.

Nobody is saying that a Sub2 is not a good sub, we are just saying that there are a ton of other options out there at 1/3 or 1/2 the price. If aesthetics is a main importance, than who better than Funk. Now that i am rambling, i think you need to give Funk a call and discuss. They are one of the priciest on the list but man are they gorgeous. JTR can also do custom veneers and automotive finishes. I believe PSA can as well. Just call them and ask.

Last edited by LFE Junkie; 11-23-2017 at 04:13 AM.
LFE Junkie is offline  
post #20 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 04:19 AM
 
LFE Junkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 563 Post(s)
Liked: 775

Funk Audio (click on the link below for more pics of finishes)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post45155313








JTR Cap 1400
Spizz, chucky7, lintonindy and 4 others like this.

Last edited by LFE Junkie; 11-23-2017 at 04:24 AM.
LFE Junkie is offline  
post #21 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 04:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
drh3b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 3,455
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1869 Post(s)
Liked: 3396
If you are worried about articulateness, I would look closely at the JTR S2, or a pair of Rythmik F18. Rythmik has a very good reputation for being good with music, whether it really is better or not, I don't know, but I do know that Jim Wilson, who has reviewed both the JTR S1 and the FV18 thought they were both awesome for music.
I'm not sure why you the think the Paradigm would beat either the JTR S2 or 4000ULF, the Databass chart says otherwise. Also, a stack of 2 F18 would beat the Paradigm. Personally, I would go with the S2, or 2 F18(when I can afford to upgrade, 2 F18's is the way I plan to go, full disclosure) or even a DSS 24 as someone else mentioned. The F18 is the sealed version of the FV18.
Also, while I personally would probably go for the Rythmiks, JTR will at a charge, put on custom finishes, you can make them into quite handsome, if imposing boxes.
Really, if musicality and articulateness are what you are most worried about, you owe yourself a visit to Rythmik's website.

Spoiler!
drh3b is offline  
post #22 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 05:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,454
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3411 Post(s)
Liked: 4170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
My numbers are coming from data-bass. I don't care about max burst, I will never push the sub near that limit. I care about basic response.

As I mentioned the Sub 2 is flat (+/- 2dB) all the way down to 12Hz. The JTR 4000 ULF is -5 dB and the JTR S2 is -10dB at that point. Am I reading that chart wrong?

I want to experience my movies and music the way they are intended to be by the producers, which to my knowledge, is not possible with any of the ID offerings suggested here. When you listen to a mix with 12Hz and 20Hz, the 12Hz will be playing 10dB lower than the 20Hz on the S2! The limitations of the S2 effectively EQ the track negatively from the way it was intended to be listened to. To some that want to laugh with their friends when their jowl's are flapping in the wind with the SPL monsters it may not matter, but I am interested in accuracy and am willing to pay the premium to achieve it.

If I am incorrect in my thinking, please enlighten me; I am here to learn.

Happy Thanksgiving! Cheers.
You are approaching this the same way with speakers. Looking at FR is fine for speakers. However, since we are talking about powered subwoofers, we have to look at CEA Max burst, among other things.

You do know that JTR subs use SpeakerPower amps that have the LF Adjust, right?

When Data-bass tested the Cap 4000ULF and the Cap S2, both had the LF Adjust at Minimum except to show the effect of LF Adjust.

JTR Cap S2:



The following shows Cap S2 with LF Adjust at Min vs Max:



JTR Cap 4000ULF:



The following shows Cap 4000ULF with LF Adjust at Min vs Max:


Data-bass says that the Sub 2's +/-3dB is from 14-230Hz.

With LF Adjust at minimum, Data-bass says that the S2 is +/- 3dB from 15-170Hz. With the LF Adjust at max, the S2 goes down to 14Hz if not lower.

Somehow you conveniently omitted that Data-bass says with the LF Adjust at max, the 4000ULF is +/- 1dB from 10~120Hz. This is just obscene...


If you look at the basic response graph for the Sub 2, it is 91.8dB @ 20Hz and 87.2dB @ 12Hz.

On Low Frequency Adjust graph for the Cap S2, with the LF Adjust at max, it is 99.2dB @ 20Hz and 93.8dB @ 12Hz.

On Low Frequency Adjust graph for the Cap 4000ULF, with the LF Adjust at max, it is 98.5dB @ 20Hz and 99dB @ 12Hz. Again, obscene...
mthomas47 and LFE Junkie like this.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 11-23-2017 at 05:57 AM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #23 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 05:57 AM
 
LFE Junkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 563 Post(s)
Liked: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Data-bass says that the Sub 2's +/-3dB is from 14-230Hz and with LF Adjust at minimum, the S2 is +/- 3dB from 15-170Hz. With the LF Adjust at max, the S2 goes down to 14Hz if not lower.

If you look at the basic response graph for the Sub 2, it is 91.8dB @ 20Hz and 87.2dB @ 12Hz.

On Low Frequency Adjust graph for the Cap S2, with the LF Adjust at max, it is 99.2dB @ 20Hz and 93.8dB @ 12Hz.

On Low Frequency Adjust graph for the Cap 4000ULF, with the LF Adjust at max, it is 98.5dB @ 20Hz and 99dB @ 12Hz. This is just obscene...
At 12 hz, that is like having 2x of the Sub2 w/ the S2 and 4x of the Sub2 w/ the Cap4000 (add the cost savings on that). Also, even though the OP will not push the subs to those limits w/ the JTR, he will be getting very low distortion because of the headroom. Utilizing one of the Sub2, he will not have nearly the headroom and will be running closer to the limits of the sub which will run into harmonic issues.
LFE Junkie is offline  
post #24 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 06:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,454
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3411 Post(s)
Liked: 4170
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFE Junkie View Post
At 12 hz, that is like having 2x of the Sub2 w/ the S2 and 4x of the Sub2 w/ the Cap4000 (add the cost savings on that). Also, even though the OP will not push the subs to those limits w/ the JTR, he will be getting very low distortion because of the headroom. Utilizing one of the Sub2, he will not have nearly the headroom and will be running closer to the limits of the sub which will run into harmonic issues.
For 'sub A is 2X of sub B' kind of discussion, we have to look at CEA 2010 Max Burst.



At 12 Hz, the Cap S2 is JUST a couple dB more than the Sub 2. The Cap 4000ULF is more than 4X of the Sub2. That's why people are enchanted by it.

The general idea is that the JTR Cap S2 and the Cap 4000ULF can do better for much less.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 11-23-2017 at 12:55 PM.
chucky7 is offline  
post #25 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Todeseng3l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Thanks all for your input! I will evaluate the options suggested and see what I can get an in home demo with.

Happy Thanksgiving!
mthomas47 likes this.
Todeseng3l is online now  
post #26 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 09:08 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,129
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5373 Post(s)
Liked: 10036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeseng3l View Post
My numbers are coming from data-bass. I don't care about max burst, I will never push the sub near that limit. I care about basic response.

As I mentioned the Sub 2 is flat (+/- 2dB) all the way down to 12Hz. The JTR 4000 ULF is -5 dB and the JTR S2 is -10dB at that point. Am I reading that chart wrong?

I want to experience my movies and music the way they are intended to be by the producers, which to my knowledge, is not possible with any of the ID offerings suggested here. When you listen to a mix with 12Hz and 20Hz, the 12Hz will be playing 10dB lower than the 20Hz on the S2! The limitations of the S2 effectively EQ the track negatively from the way it was intended to be listened to. To some that want to laugh with their friends when their jowl's are flapping in the wind with the SPL monsters it may not matter, but I am interested in accuracy and am willing to pay the premium to achieve it.

If I am incorrect in my thinking, please enlighten me; I am here to learn.

Happy Thanksgiving! Cheers.
Happy Thanksgiving!

I do think that there are a couple of areas that some other people may still be trying to clarify for you. We all help each other to understand some of these concepts better. For instance, although all modern subs are intended to be able to play flat quasi-anechoically, they all contain internal DSP to be able to tailor the frequency response to the individual room, because the room will exert both benign and malign influences on the sub's native response. For instance, I expect that you will still get some boundary gain and room gain below about 20Hz. I do, even in a 6000^3 room.

When buying the various top-of-the-line subs, it's really just a question of deciding how much SPL and tactile response you are looking for at very low frequencies, because any of the subs you are considering will be able to play as flat as the room modes, and their specific positioning, will allow them to. Their internal DSP, combined with your implementation of Dirac, will see to that.

Reviewing your posts to date, I wouldn't think that you would need a Cap 4000 ULF. The ULF in the name is deliberate. It is the current low frequency champion, as defined by Data-Bass. But, if you like the idea of having an exceptionally low frequency response, combined with a lot of tactile energy, the Cap 2400 ULF could be a very good option for you. And, it would fit within the dimensions you listed.

Another good option that would fit your space would be the Rythmik FV25HP. It wouldn't produce as much tactile energy as the Cap 2400. And, that is by design. The intent of that sub design is to have the low frequency response of a ported sub, but without quite as much port wind or tactile energy. For an equal mix of music and movies, it might work even better for you than the Cap 2400.

If you want to move to sealed subs, then a Cap S2 would be a very good choice, although it would be a little bigger in one dimension than you had preferred. My personal pick for a sealed sub, with the budget you have listed, would be the Funk Audio FA21.0LX, with the 4800 watt amp. Nathan Funk can tailor the low frequency response for a particular room, since he builds his subs to order anyway. For a combination of superior performance and superior appearance, I don't think that the Funk Audio subs have any equals.

So much has changed in subwoofer technology in the last 10 or 11 years. The Paradigm Sub2 was very advanced for it's time. But, instead of using six 8" woofers (with the concomitant maintenance issue that can arise) subwoofer engineers have learned how to develop larger drivers, with more excursion, and superior DSP, in order to achieve low frequency SPL's that were simply not thought of in 2006. We don't care about that additional low frequency SPL so much for most acoustic music, but we really value it for 5.1 blockbusters and action movies (and for some electronically-enhanced music).

I think that you should buy whatever sub you really want. And, if that is the Sub2, so be it. But, when people start threads like this one, they gain a great opportunity to be exposed to broader points of view about their options. I believe that AVS forum can be a constant education for all of us in this respect. And, when it comes to subwoofers, the industry has moved extremely fast in recent years, much in the way that it has with smartphones and tablets.

There are a lot of good subwoofer choices out there, at a variety of price points. Just take your time to understand what is being said about native response (any of the good subwoofers will have that) and to better define your own goals with respect to low frequencies, tactile response, and any other factors you deem relevant. And, you will be able to make the choice that best serves your individual preferences.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #27 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 09:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jjackkrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,276
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2223 Post(s)
Liked: 2328
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
If you want to move to sealed subs, then a Cap S2 would be a very good choice, although it would be a little bigger in one dimension than you had preferred. My personal pick for a sealed sub, with the budget you have listed, would be the Funk Audio FA21.0LX, with the 4800 watt amp. Nathan Funk can tailor the low frequency response for a particular room, since he builds his subs to order anyway. For a combination of superior performance and superior appearance, I don't think that the Funk Audio subs have any equals.
Don't forget to add Mark's SubMersive (plus slave option) and F18 (plus slave option) to the sealed list.
jjackkrash is offline  
post #28 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 09:49 AM
The Ultimate chest punch!
 
Adamg (Ret-Navy)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,617
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 864 Post(s)
Liked: 1817
Many great recommendations and very neutral IMHO. OP you are getting some really great advice here. This is a big purchase so taking your time and doing some more homework will always pay off in the end. Good luck. You have heard from some of the Subwoofer "Greybeards" on AVS. Mike's advice is always spot on, well thought out and incredibly unbiased.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
ahblaza, mthomas47 and Todeseng3l like this.

AdamG, ...out!
The government cannot give to anybody,
anything that the government does not first,
take from somebody else.
Adamg (Ret-Navy) is online now  
post #29 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 11:57 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,129
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5373 Post(s)
Liked: 10036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Many great recommendations and very neutral IMHO. OP you are getting some really great advice here. This is a big purchase so taking your time and doing some more homework will always pay off in the end. Good luck. You have heard from some of the Subwoofer "Greybeards" on AVS. Mike's advice is always spot on, well thought out and incredibly unbiased.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
Thank you very much, Adam! That was an extremely nice compliment. I think, as you noted, that threads like these involve a collective effort.
Adamg (Ret-Navy) likes this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #30 of 84 Old 11-23-2017, 01:38 PM
The Ultimate chest punch!
 
Adamg (Ret-Navy)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,617
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 864 Post(s)
Liked: 1817
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much, Adam! That was an extremely nice compliment. I think, as you noted, that threads like these involve a collective effort.
Mike, no “thanks” necessary!

Collective effort indeed. Resistance is Futile!

AdamG, ...out!
The government cannot give to anybody,
anything that the government does not first,
take from somebody else.
Adamg (Ret-Navy) is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Paradigm , pb16ultra , sub2 , subwoofer , Svs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off