SVS Launches 4000 Series Subs: SB-4000, PB-4000 and PC-4000 - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 226 Old 04-24-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by theaterofpain View Post
Hmmm, sounds like a self-justification rant for settling on the PB13 purchase. I was going to get dual PB13s, but then got dual PC-4000s but that's because some of us love the form factor (it allowed me to tighten up the false wall in the dedicated theater) and the convenience of bluetooth control after the acoustically transparent false went up. If form factor and ease of sub control don't matter, then I don't see why dual PB13s wouldn't be OK for you.
I suppose you could look at it that way haha...I don’t mind. I did have the the choice between the new line and the old and I guess you could say common sense took over. An easy decision for me not needing the new ease of use features.

The main point of my post was simply to point out that performance wise, the new and old are pretty much a wash. I was getting the impression reading through this thread that people were thinking they were getting some sort of major bump in performance over the outgoing Ultra line. Maybe by pointing this out I can help save some folks a huge sum of cash.

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post #212 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 08:34 AM
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I suppose you could look at it that way haha...I don’t mind. I did have the the choice between the new line and the old and I guess you could say common sense took over. An easy decision for me not needing the new ease of use features.

The main point of my post was simply to point out that performance wise, the new and old are pretty much a wash. I was getting the impression reading through this thread that people were thinking they were getting some sort of major bump in performance over the outgoing Ultra line. Maybe by pointing this out I can help save some folks a huge sum of cash.
The performace difference between the new 4000 line and the old Ultra line is significant. I believe testing has shown anywhere from 3-6 dB. Combine that with the ease of use features and the 4000 series is a no-brainer.
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post #213 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by natedog1959 View Post
The performace difference between the new 4000 line and the old Ultra line is significant. I believe testing has shown anywhere from 3-6 dB. Combine that with the ease of use features and the 4000 series is a no-brainer.
I don't believe there is that much difference. I'm sure there is some with overall better FR but mostly in the same ballpark. To put those numbers in perspective a 6db increase is equivalent to adding a second co-located subwoofer. I have not seen any direct compares done from the same third party but if you look at the measurements of the PB-4000 from hometheaterreview (only measurements I see) and PB13 ultra measurements from audioholics they are pretty similar. Now these are different 3rd parties in different testing environments so needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Have you seen other any direct comparisons or other 3rd party testing of 4000 series done?

https://hometheaterreview.com/svs-pb...viewed/?page=2

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...3-measurements
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post #214 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by natedog1959 View Post
The performace difference between the new 4000 line and the old Ultra line is significant. I believe testing has shown anywhere from 3-6 dB. Combine that with the ease of use features and the 4000 series is a no-brainer.
Link please?



Now you can see my point...this is the type of misinformation that is misleading people. The numbers this guy is claiming would put it at, or above, the performance level of the new PB16 Ultra.
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post #215 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
Link please?



Now you can see my point...this is the type of misinformation that is misleading people. The numbers this guy is claiming would put it at, or above, the performance level of the new PB16 Ultra.
I'm betting it's the old someone confused a frequency response chart with max output. The PB-13 Ultra graph was done with 90 db signal and the PB-4000 was done with a 95 db signal.
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post #216 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 01:57 PM
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I think that this has already been laid to rest by several people on the thread, but just in case, Ed Mullen has said that the difference between the PB4000 (with its slightly larger cabinet size and its extra 200 watts RMS) and the PB13 is about 0.5db. There was always a little bit of max output difference between the PB13 and the PC13, due to the difference in cabinet volume between the two, and that difference would presumably remain with the PB4000 and the PC4000. I think that the difference was approximately 1.5db.

We all want our subs to have as much max output as possible, but it is extremely unlikely that anyone would ever be able to appreciate a max output difference in the 0.5 to 1.5db range. On the other hand, improvements in DSP and in ease of functionality, with the new models, might be very welcome to some sub owners.

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post #217 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bargugl View Post
I'm betting it's the old someone confused a frequency response chart with max output. The PB-13 Ultra graph was done with 90 db signal and the PB-4000 was done with a 95 db signal.

That may have been the difference I saw. Didn't SVS themselves say the improvement was significant earlier in this thread on on the PC-4000 AVSforum test thread?
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post #218 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
It's a typo on the FR graphs - we fixed it.

The PC-4000 is a better performer than the PC13-Ultra in every respect. It has higher dynamic output, more refined behavior at the limits, better optimized FRs in each tune, more comprehensive menu options, and of course the front panel display, credit card remote and smart phone app.

Ed,


Do you have back to back numbers on the difference to settle this discussion?
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post #219 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natedog1959 View Post
Ed,

Do you have back to back numbers on the difference to settle this discussion?
Ed might not be monitoring this thread on a daily basis so try @Ed Mullen instead. That may work better.

 
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post #220 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think that this has already been laid to rest by several people on the thread, but just in case, Ed Mullen has said that the difference between the PB4000 (with its slightly larger cabinet size and its extra 200 watts RMS) and the PB13 is about 0.5db. There was always a little bit of max output difference between the PB13 and the PC13, due to the difference in cabinet volume between the two, and that difference would presumably remain with the PB4000 and the PC4000. I think that the difference was approximately 1.5db.

We all want our subs to have as much max output as possible, but it is extremely unlikely that anyone would ever be able to appreciate a max output difference in the 0.5 to 1.5db range. On the other hand, improvements in DSP and in ease of functionality, with the new models, might be very welcome to some sub owners.

Regards,
Mike
Well said...and if they are selling for the same price, the choice is obvious to grab the latest model for those DSP improvements and ease of use features.
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post #221 of 226 Old 04-25-2018, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by natedog1959 View Post
Ed,


Do you have back to back numbers on the difference to settle this discussion?

+1 for this. PB4000 costs $1000 more than a PB-13 where I'm from. Wondering were the value is.
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post #222 of 226 Old 04-26-2018, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natedog1959 View Post
The performace difference between the new 4000 line and the old Ultra line is significant. I believe testing has shown anywhere from 3-6 dB. Combine that with the ease of use features and the 4000 series is a no-brainer.
3-6dbs lol. Can you sell me whatever your smoking? There is only a 3-4db between the 13 and 16 Ultras.

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post #223 of 226 Old 04-30-2018, 05:23 AM
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The max SPL (CEA-2010) deltas between the discontinued 13-Ultra and the 4000 series is (as I have mentioned previously and Mike stated above) about 0.5-1.0 dB on average (depending on the test frequency). This is with both amps set to 0 dB, and is consistent with the 1000W vs 1200W rated power difference between the two amp platforms.

The FR sweeps shown on the website are not all taken at the same exact drive level. We adjust the drive level of the FR sweep to obtain an adequate S/N ratio for good data acquisition (some test days simply have higher ambient noise levels than others). Naturally the FR sweep level doesn't reflect the maximum output capability of the subwoofer - and we state that below the FR graphs.

I just did a quick check of the Standard Tune PC13-Ultra vs Standard Tune PC-4000 CEA-2010 test data (these models were specifically mentioned above) and the deltas (in favor of the PC-4000) are:

20 Hz 1.0 dB
25 Hz 1.1 dB
31.5 Hz 0.2 dB
40 Hz 0.8 dB
50 Hz 1.2 dB
63 Hz 1.3 dB
80 Hz 0.7 dB

Again no real surprises here - typical/expected gains given the 1000W/1200W power level differences between the two platforms.
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post #224 of 226 Old 05-04-2018, 03:05 PM
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So with those gains the PC-4000 is about equal to the PB13 Ultra in output, and with a much smaller footprint.
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post #225 of 226 Old 05-04-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Slickman View Post
So with those gains the PC-4000 is about equal to the PB13 Ultra in output, and with a much smaller footprint.
That’s probably a fair assessment..

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post #226 of 226 Old 06-13-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Oh I know, nothing directed at you.. I *do* have a dog-in-the-fight so to speak. Every time nonsense like this is stated/quoted it has a ripple effect. Might be a tiny ripple but it is still there. Trust me, there's hundreds or maybe even thousands of casual home theater enthusiasts out there right now...who actually believe this horseshi*.

One of the more common themes I get in chat/phone is "I just spoke with one of your competitors and they said all 18" subwoofers will be slow and boomy. That's not what I want so I guess I should only consider your smaller products, right"?

Just perfect. Now I need to spend how much of MY time trying to correct this myth? And I wonder who that "competitor" was?

Rant over..

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